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Fundamentalist Militant [Vegetarianism] and [Veganism]

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    SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    Duffel wrote: »
    Are there seriously people who "can't eat a meal without meat in it"?

    Literally cannot for health reasons? Probably not.

    Don't want to? Sure.

    Some people really like meat. I don't feel any urge to shove vegetables down their throat against their will.

    A real big pet peeve of mine when I worked in a deli years ago was the sheer number of people who wanted a sandwich with absolutely no veggies. Just meat and mayo and bread.

    Absolutely unappetizing.

    Sheep on
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    Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    If it has been posted I'm sorry.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKTsWjbjQ8E

    that is excellent

    Protein Shakes on
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    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    zeeny wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    This is stupid. Really stupid. If you're a vegetarian and someone offers you meat you can turn it down and included in that refusal can be the fact that you don't eat meat. If that's offensive you have issues.

    If you know they're preparing a meal and don't mention restrictions before they go through the effort of cooking for you, and then reject the food, that's extremely rude.

    Most likely scenario is the host would know you're a vegetarian and they'd still cook with meat because the meal is not specifically for you but for you + N others.
    Turning down food for any reason is in no way rude, if you don't do it in a rude way and frankly, if I wasn't consulted about a menu/order I don't expect to be accommodated even by people who know I don't eat meat.

    Edit: Uuuh, I should probably mention that I don't believe I'm an "ideological vegetarian" in the sense used in this thread though.

    Really? I can think of a number of situations where it would be considered rude, and a rejection of an offer of hospitality. Especially given the broadness of that for any reason criteria.

    Example:
    Bob, come over to my house for dinner on Wednesday.
    - Okay.
    (Wednesday)
    Welcome to my home, Bob. I hope you're hungry, I've been cooking this brisket all day.
    - No thanks, I got some McDonald's on the way over.

    Letting someone go through the effort of cooking for you when you have no intention of eating what they labored to create is extremely rude. Possibly to the point of "Bob's not being invited over for dinner again." Though personally I'd go for something more along the lines of "next dinner party I'll cook for everyone else and just put a Happy Meal in front of Bob's seat."

    BubbaT on
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    Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    BubbaT wrote: »
    zeeny wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    This is stupid. Really stupid. If you're a vegetarian and someone offers you meat you can turn it down and included in that refusal can be the fact that you don't eat meat. If that's offensive you have issues.

    If you know they're preparing a meal and don't mention restrictions before they go through the effort of cooking for you, and then reject the food, that's extremely rude.

    Most likely scenario is the host would know you're a vegetarian and they'd still cook with meat because the meal is not specifically for you but for you + N others.
    Turning down food for any reason is in no way rude, if you don't do it in a rude way and frankly, if I wasn't consulted about a menu/order I don't expect to be accommodated even by people who know I don't eat meat.

    Edit: Uuuh, I should probably mention that I don't believe I'm an "ideological vegetarian" in the sense used in this thread though.

    Really? I can think of a number of situations where it would be considered rude, and a rejection of an offer of hospitality. Especially given the broadness of that for any reason criteria.

    Example:
    Bob, come over to my house for dinner on Wednesday.
    - Okay.
    (Wednesday)
    Welcome to my home, Bob. I hope you're hungry, I've been cooking this brisket all day.
    - No thanks, I got some McDonald's on the way over.

    Letting someone go through the effort of cooking for you when you have no intention of eating what they labored to create is extremely rude. Possibly to the point of "Bob's not being invited over for dinner again." Though personally I'd go for something more along the lines of "next dinner party I'll cook for everyone else and just put a Happy Meal in front of Bob's seat."

    This is why I warn people. Fortunately most of the people I know are quite accommodating. Besides, pretty much everyone I know well enough to hang out with is either vegetarian or has known I am for quite some time.

    Mortal Sky on
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    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    As a vegetarian for about eighteen months now, here's my POV:
    I'm fine with meat on a basic level, but I personally go vegetarian as an objection to factory farming. However, just to be a dick (kidding), I avoid all meat and avoid animal products as much as I can.

    This is my POV as well. Just to further throw this into the scrambler, I am currently debating with myself (and fiancee, who is also Veg) about whether or not a bigger "blow" to the factory farming industry is not an abstinence from meat products, but rather a support of small scale, independent, responsible farming.

    Careful, that kind of thinking - that eating a free range chicken from a local, sustainable farmer might be better for the planet than eating corn from an industrial, polluting, rainforest-slashing, labor-abusing, multinational agribusiness - is liable to get you a pie in the face.

    BubbaT on
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    CliffCliff Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I'm a picky eater so I stray away from situations where I have to eat whatever is put in front of me. That's one way to deal with accepting/declining meals. I suppose that wouldn't work for some social circles though.

    Cliff on
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    Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    As a vegetarian for about eighteen months now, here's my POV:
    I'm fine with meat on a basic level, but I personally go vegetarian as an objection to factory farming. However, just to be a dick (kidding), I avoid all meat and avoid animal products as much as I can.

    This is my POV as well. Just to further throw this into the scrambler, I am currently debating with myself (and fiancee, who is also Veg) about whether or not a bigger "blow" to the factory farming industry is not an abstinence from meat products, but rather a support of small scale, independent, responsible farming.

    Careful, that kind of thinking - that eating a free range chicken from a local, sustainable farmer might be better for the planet than eating corn from an industrial, polluting, rainforest-slashing, labor-abusing, multinational agribusiness - is liable to get you a pie in the face.
    A pie to the face, you say? If any man has the courage to do so, then I hope they admire the cut of my jib as I begin the conflict to end all conflicts. My pies shall block out the sun as my whipped creamy wrath begins. I shall toss one of my six pies as I grow the free range that ends the earth.

    On another thought, I'd rather see a million GMOs than a single pesticide if I were going to eat from big agriculture.

    Mortal Sky on
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    ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited May 2010
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    As a vegetarian for about eighteen months now, here's my POV:
    I'm fine with meat on a basic level, but I personally go vegetarian as an objection to factory farming. However, just to be a dick (kidding), I avoid all meat and avoid animal products as much as I can.

    This is my POV as well. Just to further throw this into the scrambler, I am currently debating with myself (and fiancee, who is also Veg) about whether or not a bigger "blow" to the factory farming industry is not an abstinence from meat products, but rather a support of small scale, independent, responsible farming.

    Careful, that kind of thinking - that eating a free range chicken from a local, sustainable farmer might be better for the planet than eating corn from an industrial, polluting, rainforest-slashing, labor-abusing, multinational agribusiness - is liable to get you a pie in the face.

    Free pie, whoo!

    Arch, I, too, am in a similar boat. I don't particularly care about the death, merely the pain. So I will only obtain meat from sources such as small scale, independent farmers, or predators.

    I can't really shake the feeling that it's just to love steak either, but after thinking about it for a long time, I believe that that feeling is just me being hyperconscious of possible biases. In this case, I'm pretty sure I'm biased towards an ethical direction.

    Shivahn on
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    RaburoRaburo Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    zeeny wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    This is stupid. Really stupid. If you're a vegetarian and someone offers you meat you can turn it down and included in that refusal can be the fact that you don't eat meat. If that's offensive you have issues.

    If you know they're preparing a meal and don't mention restrictions before they go through the effort of cooking for you, and then reject the food, that's extremely rude.

    Most likely scenario is the host would know you're a vegetarian and they'd still cook with meat because the meal is not specifically for you but for you + N others.
    Turning down food for any reason is in no way rude, if you don't do it in a rude way and frankly, if I wasn't consulted about a menu/order I don't expect to be accommodated even by people who know I don't eat meat.

    Edit: Uuuh, I should probably mention that I don't believe I'm an "ideological vegetarian" in the sense used in this thread though.

    The way I was raised it is impolite to not eat food thats offered to you for any reason. Even if someone is serving you something you think is disgusting, it is still impolite not to eat it.

    Raburo on
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    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    My pies shall block out the sun

    Then we will fight in the shade!

    BubbaT on
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    QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    If it has been posted I'm sorry.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKTsWjbjQ8E

    that is excellent
    Actually, it's pretty dumb, as it draws a moral equivalency between vegetarianism and meat-eating, whereas the entire point of being a vegetarian is that you don't think they're morally equivalent.

    On hosting: I hate religion with all the dark power of my cold, black heart. I think Islam and Bahai prohibitions against drinking alcohol are fucking stupid. I think anyone who doesn't drink alcohol because of their religion is being ignorant and childish.

    If one of these people were coming over for dinner I would go out of my way to make them a meal without wine or alcohol. Also, if I made beef burgundy and someone turned out to be a Muslim and couldn't eat it, I wouldn't think they were being rude. I wouldn't give a shit, apart from my usual feelings about religion, and I'd probably try to make something just for them.

    If a host takes offense when a guest can't eat what they're cooking, that host is being rude.
    Raburo wrote: »
    The way I was raised it is impolite to not eat food thats offered to you for any reason. Even if someone is serving you something you think is disgusting, it is still impolite not to eat it.
    The people who raised you need to get over themselves and learn a sense of hospitality.

    Qingu on
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    Cedar BrownCedar Brown Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    My pies shall block out the sun

    Then we will eat in the shade!

    Fixed.

    Cedar Brown on
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    CliffCliff Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Speaker wrote: »
    Cliff wrote: »
    Basically, I hate vegetarians/vegans and will not associate with them. If eating meat were categorically proven to be immoral, I would still do it. I value the enjoyment I get out of eating meat above all animal(excluding human) life on the planet. I don't care how many animals suffer so I can eat my fill.

    Wait, why do you hate me again? We've never even met.

    Because you are a silly goose.

    Cliff on
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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Sheep wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    Are there seriously people who "can't eat a meal without meat in it"?

    Literally cannot for health reasons? Probably not.

    Don't want to? Sure.

    Some people really like meat. I don't feel any urge to shove vegetables down their throat against their will.

    A real big pet peeve of mine when I worked in a deli years ago was the sheer number of people who wanted a sandwich with absolutely no veggies. Just meat and mayo and bread.

    Absolutely unappetizing.

    I eat sandwiches with just meat and cheese. I'll have carrots or radishes or something on the side, but I can't stand veggies on a sandwich.

    Shadowfire on
    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    PelPel Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    A sandwich without a tomato is no sandwich at all.

    Pel on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Cliff wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Cliff wrote: »
    Basically, I hate vegetarians/vegans and will not associate with them. If eating meat were categorically proven to be immoral, I would still do it. I value the enjoyment I get out of eating meat above all animal(excluding human) life on the planet. I don't care how many animals suffer so I can eat my fill.

    Wait, why do you hate me again? We've never even met.

    Because you are a silly goose.

    Oh this is rich. This is the best cliff post ever.

    Arch on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    Up till they try and sneak something like tofu chili or tofurkey on me, which is always bad.
    Depends entirely on the product and what they're doing with it. It is silly to try to replace something like a turkey with a tofu mold. There's no point, it's not turkey. However, things like chili or chicken nuggets are easily replaced with vegetarian options. There is nothing special about rubbery, compressed chicken anus that keeps it from being replaced with soy. And there's plenty of vegetarian chili that's just as good as any other canned chili. Same for some sausages.

    And then there's things that are similar to meat dishes but are in no way similar. Sometimes we'll make grilled portobello mushroom burgers. No, they don't taste like hamburger. They don't have to because they're delicious on their own merits.

    The idea that they're trying to "sneak" it on to people is ridiculous. Unless you've flat out told them you don't want any meat substitutes in your food, they're not sneaking a vegetarian option on you any more than someone offering you a cheese pizza is.

    Finally, you most certainly do not speak for other people that eat meat. Your lack of experience with decent food is your own shortcoming, not everyone else's.

    Quid on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Cliff wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Cliff wrote: »
    Basically, I hate vegetarians/vegans and will not associate with them. If eating meat were categorically proven to be immoral, I would still do it. I value the enjoyment I get out of eating meat above all animal(excluding human) life on the planet. I don't care how many animals suffer so I can eat my fill.

    Wait, why do you hate me again? We've never even met.

    Because you are a silly goose.

    Care to explain beyond "You don't eat meat therefore you're dumb?" I mean, shit, you're basing your judgement of someone that has no relation as to whether or not you'll get along unless you're an incredibly selfish person that refuses to make any consideration whatsoever for other people's beliefs.

    Quid on
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    ElitistbElitistb Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Mmmm. Meatbeasts. When I hear of stuff like vat meat I think of this one book series I read where their meat was harvested from a wall created of cow flesh, including the heads. They would occasionally moo and everything, but they were all still part of a wall of meat. It was awesome.

    If I can find something that I am incapable of differentiating from meat, I will switch to it (assuming no health/cancer/cost/environmental issues).

    Could I give up meat entirely? If I absolutely had to. I've been planning on trying to cook some tofu stuff. I'd also heard about the mushroom "burger", maybe I'll try that sometime as well. Do you still put mustard and ketchup on them?

    As to "sneaking" food in, "mushroom burger" is a deliberate lie. It should be "mushroom sandwich". Similarly "turkey bacon", "tofurkey", or any other term like that is total bullshit.

    Elitistb on
    steam_sig.png
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    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Elitistb wrote: »
    As to "sneaking" food in, "mushroom burger" is a deliberate lie. It should be "mushroom sandwich". Similarly "turkey bacon", "tofurkey", or any other term like that is total bullshit.

    So is "vegetarian chili". There is no vegetarian chili, there's bean, pepper and tomato stew.

    Unless one is talking specifically about eating chili peppers.

    BubbaT on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Elitistb wrote: »
    As to "sneaking" food in, "mushroom burger" is a deliberate lie. It should be "mushroom sandwich". Similarly "turkey bacon", "tofurkey", or any other term like that is total bullshit.

    So is "vegetarian chili". There is no vegetarian chili, there's bean, pepper and tomato stew.

    Unless one is talking specifically about eating chili peppers.

    Doesn't "chili" in the name of the dish refer to the pepper involved?

    I mean right now you are just splitting hairs and being combative over the name of a food dish for no reason.

    Arch on
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    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Doesn't "chili" in the name of the dish refer to the pepper involved?

    In America Chili pretty much implies "chili con carne", for whatever reason. Think chili cheese fries!

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    Depends entirely on the product and what they're doing with it. It is silly to try to replace something like a turkey with a tofu mold. There's no point, it's not turkey. However, things like chili or chicken nuggets are easily replaced with vegetarian options. There is nothing special about rubbery, compressed chicken anus that keeps it from being replaced with soy. And there's plenty of vegetarian chili that's just as good as any other canned chili. Same for some sausages.

    And then there's things that are similar to meat dishes but are in no way similar. Sometimes we'll make grilled portobello mushroom burgers. No, they don't taste like hamburger. They don't have to because they're delicious on their own merits.

    The idea that they're trying to "sneak" it on to people is ridiculous. Unless you've flat out told them you don't want any meat substitutes in your food, they're not sneaking a vegetarian option on you any more than someone offering you a cheese pizza is.

    Finally, you most certainly do not speak for other people that eat meat. Your lack of experience with decent food is your own shortcoming, not everyone else's.

    MrMister on
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    nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »
    Up till they try and sneak something like tofu chili or tofurkey on me, which is always bad.
    Depends entirely on the product and what they're doing with it. It is silly to try to replace something like a turkey with a tofu mold. There's no point, it's not turkey. However, things like chili or chicken nuggets are easily replaced with vegetarian options. There is nothing special about rubbery, compressed chicken anus that keeps it from being replaced with soy. And there's plenty of vegetarian chili that's just as good as any other canned chili. Same for some sausages.

    And then there's things that are similar to meat dishes but are in no way similar. Sometimes we'll make grilled portobello mushroom burgers. No, they don't taste like hamburger. They don't have to because they're delicious on their own merits.

    The idea that they're trying to "sneak" it on to people is ridiculous. Unless you've flat out told them you don't want any meat substitutes in your food, they're not sneaking a vegetarian option on you any more than someone offering you a cheese pizza is.

    Finally, you most certainly do not speak for other people that eat meat. Your lack of experience with decent food is your own shortcoming, not everyone else's.

    I've had the fake nuggets and fake sausages, it still does not taste like the real thing and is foul. And it's still rude, and cruel, to serve it to a meat eater. It's disgusting. And vegetarian hot dogs are one of the most foul creations known to man. It is not just as good, it's fucking horrible. I've had to put up with that shit dozens of times only to see some smug vegi staring at me "see, can't tell the difference", no asshole I can, and no matter how many of you try and pull this stunt off, it never tastes the same and it's still disgusting. Now excuse me while I go spit this chili out. It's like every meal is a chance to get another convert to the religion.

    If I "have to tell them" that I don't want that crud, then they should "have to tell me" they don't want me to sneak chicken broth into something. Don't serve meat eaters that fake stuff, it's rude and makes you a giant asshole.

    The portobello is different, that's not trying to fake something. Likewise, Indian food can be vegetarian, but it's not trying to fake something, and thus is acceptable. I like Indian food, but I'll always scarf up some tandori chicken when I'm there. Japanese food can be vegetarian, but don't rip the fish stock part out of miso soup, because then it tastes like ass, cucumber rolls kick ass though.

    nstf on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »
    Up till they try and sneak something like tofu chili or tofurkey on me, which is always bad.
    Depends entirely on the product and what they're doing with it. It is silly to try to replace something like a turkey with a tofu mold. There's no point, it's not turkey. However, things like chili or chicken nuggets are easily replaced with vegetarian options. There is nothing special about rubbery, compressed chicken anus that keeps it from being replaced with soy. And there's plenty of vegetarian chili that's just as good as any other canned chili. Same for some sausages.

    And then there's things that are similar to meat dishes but are in no way similar. Sometimes we'll make grilled portobello mushroom burgers. No, they don't taste like hamburger. They don't have to because they're delicious on their own merits.

    The idea that they're trying to "sneak" it on to people is ridiculous. Unless you've flat out told them you don't want any meat substitutes in your food, they're not sneaking a vegetarian option on you any more than someone offering you a cheese pizza is.

    Finally, you most certainly do not speak for other people that eat meat. Your lack of experience with decent food is your own shortcoming, not everyone else's.

    I've had the fake nuggets and fake sausages, it still does not taste like the real thing and is foul. And it's still rude, and cruel, to serve it to a meat eater. It's disgusting. And vegetarian hot dogs are one of the most foul creations known to man. It is not just as good, it's fucking horrible. I've had to put up with that shit dozens of times only to see some smug vegi staring at me "see, can't tell the difference", no asshole I can, and no matter how many of you try and pull this stunt off, it never tastes the same and it's still disgusting. Now excuse me while I go spit this chili out. It's like every meal is a chance to get another convert to the religion.

    If I "have to tell them" that I don't want that crud, then they should "have to tell me" they don't want me to sneak chicken broth into something. Don't serve meat eaters that fake stuff, it's rude and makes you a giant asshole.

    The portobello is different, that's not trying to fake something. Likewise, Indian food can be vegetarian, but it's not trying to fake something, and thus is acceptable. I like Indian food, but I'll always scarf up some tandori chicken when I'm there. Japanese food can be vegetarian, but don't rip the fish stock part out of miso soup, because then it tastes like ass, cucumber rolls kick ass though.

    Ironically, my roomate can't tell the difference between our soy hot dogs and her hot dogs

    And I like that thinking "textured processed vegetable protein" is foul compared to textured processed meat protein makes you the cool kid, and me the smug asshole

    Arch on
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    nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »
    Up till they try and sneak something like tofu chili or tofurkey on me, which is always bad.
    Depends entirely on the product and what they're doing with it. It is silly to try to replace something like a turkey with a tofu mold. There's no point, it's not turkey. However, things like chili or chicken nuggets are easily replaced with vegetarian options. There is nothing special about rubbery, compressed chicken anus that keeps it from being replaced with soy. And there's plenty of vegetarian chili that's just as good as any other canned chili. Same for some sausages.

    And then there's things that are similar to meat dishes but are in no way similar. Sometimes we'll make grilled portobello mushroom burgers. No, they don't taste like hamburger. They don't have to because they're delicious on their own merits.

    The idea that they're trying to "sneak" it on to people is ridiculous. Unless you've flat out told them you don't want any meat substitutes in your food, they're not sneaking a vegetarian option on you any more than someone offering you a cheese pizza is.

    Finally, you most certainly do not speak for other people that eat meat. Your lack of experience with decent food is your own shortcoming, not everyone else's.

    I've had the fake nuggets and fake sausages, it still does not taste like the real thing and is foul. And it's still rude, and cruel, to serve it to a meat eater. It's disgusting. And vegetarian hot dogs are one of the most foul creations known to man. It is not just as good, it's fucking horrible. I've had to put up with that shit dozens of times only to see some smug vegi staring at me "see, can't tell the difference", no asshole I can, and no matter how many of you try and pull this stunt off, it never tastes the same and it's still disgusting. Now excuse me while I go spit this chili out. It's like every meal is a chance to get another convert to the religion.

    If I "have to tell them" that I don't want that crud, then they should "have to tell me" they don't want me to sneak chicken broth into something. Don't serve meat eaters that fake stuff, it's rude and makes you a giant asshole.

    The portobello is different, that's not trying to fake something. Likewise, Indian food can be vegetarian, but it's not trying to fake something, and thus is acceptable. I like Indian food, but I'll always scarf up some tandori chicken when I'm there. Japanese food can be vegetarian, but don't rip the fish stock part out of miso soup, because then it tastes like ass, cucumber rolls kick ass though.

    Ironically, my roomate can't tell the difference between our soy hot dogs and her hot dogs

    And I like that thinking "textured processed vegetable protein" is foul compared to textured processed meat protein makes you the cool kid, and me the smug asshole

    She's buying very crappy hotdogs then.

    nstf on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    nstf- never said she wasn't

    but you never specified quality

    also i take umbrage that miso soup needs to have dashi stock in it, because I make a mean miso minus dashi

    Arch on
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    OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    And vegetarian hot dogs are one of the most foul creations known to man. It is not just as good, it's fucking horrible. I've had to put up with that shit dozens of times only to see some smug vegi staring at me "see, can't tell the difference"...

    That actually sounds identical to mass-produced hot dogs.
    She's buying very crappy hotdogs then

    Well, it depends are you talking something with natural casing and texture difference due to a roughly-ground slurry. But that's not really an "American" hot dog.

    Octoparrot on
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    nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    nstf- never said she wasn't

    but you never specified quality

    also i take umbrage that miso soup needs to have dashi stock in it, because I make a mean miso minus dashi

    I've had several people try this on me, and I can always tell the difference, it doesn't taste as good and is not the same. Now if you want to eat it, that's on you, but I want daishi in mine.

    Which begs to question, if you throw a japanese dinner, why not just make two batches of miso for both groups, and why not prep some tuna for the group that eats meat? That's the polite way to do it. The asshole way to go about is to not do any of that and force everybody to eat according to your wants.
    Well, it depends are you talking something with natural casing and texture difference due to a roughly-ground slurry. But that's not really an "American" hot dog.

    Even crud like ballpark is light years better then soydogs, she'd have to really be scraping the bottom of the barrel not to notice.

    nstf on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I realized some time ago that it is impossible to argue with anyone who believes eating meat is objectively unethical.

    It is impossible to argue with them on the same level that it is impossible to argue with a Catholic that homosexuality isn't a sin.

    Their beliefs are founded on faith in metaphysical realities not supported by logic or objective facts.

    Now, I'm not going to say that such beliefs are wrong (I believe they're wrong, of course) but I do know that it's generally a waste of time to argue with the faithful about their faith.

    And ultimately, if you are idealogical vegan (ie someone who believes that eating animal products is immoral) you are making an assertion based on faith, not reason. You, for whatever reason you think is right, believe that it is wrong to eat animals.

    Maybe you believe in Gaia or some other kind of "world spirit" or that it is simply some kind of ephemeral "Natural" quality that makes all living things "equal" and thus behooves us not to consume our "brothers".

    Whatever the case may be, and I'm not asking you to justify it to me, it's based on your beliefs and only your beliefs. I'm not going to try to convince you it's wrong, but I am saying that just as it is highly unlikely that I will convince you that you are wrong, it is unlikely that you will change my views.

    There's nothing logically consistent about idealogical veganism. Subjected to even a few moments of scrutiny and analysis, and as an ethos independent of metaphysics it collapses on itself.

    Buuuut, if you believe it's right because you feel the harmony of the universe telling you so, I'm not going to argue with you about it... so long as you realize where you are coming from on the subject.

    Pony on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    For number 2, the author says that it is basically a giant appeal to emotion, which is a logical fallacy. Certainly there are some slaughterhouses that are overly violent and inhumane in their treatment of animals, and those should be protested by not buying their meat. However, many farms, usually local ones, use sustainable practices and allow their animals to roam freely in the open, and do not pump them full of anti-biotics. There is nothing cruel about eating the meats of those animals, especially because out in the wilderness they wouldn't survive, and even if they did, they would die violent deaths (eaten by predators).

    I'm not a Vegan and don't particularly care to debate this topic, but I wanted to point out that this statement is factually incorrect. In fact, it's backwards.

    The statement, "Killing animals and eating them is cruel to the animals being eaten," is not logically fallacious. It might invoke emotions, but that in and of itself doesn't make it an appeal to emotion.

    On the other hand, "There is nothing cruel about eating the meats of those animals, especially because out in the wilderness they wouldn't survive, and even if they did, they would die violent death," is a non-sequitor line of reasoning, and a plainly obvious one.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    Which begs to question, if you throw a japanese dinner, why not just make two batches of miso for both groups, and why not prep some tuna for the group that eats meat? That's the polite way to do it. The asshole way to go about is to not do any of that and force everybody to eat according to your wants.

    Attempting to respond from the religious angle (devil's advocate, if you will), why would someone who is not allowed to handle or eat meat risk offending their God?

    Octoparrot on
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    ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The Ender wrote: »

    On the other hand, "There is nothing cruel about eating the meats of those animals, especially because out in the wilderness they wouldn't survive, and even if they did, they would die violent death," is a non-sequitor line of reasoning, and a plainly obvious one.

    If the reason someone doesn't eat meat is that the animal is treated cruelly and dies painfully, then I fail to see how it's a non-sequitur to suggest meat from farms that don't treat the animals this way is preferable to their natural habitat where they'd literally be eaten alive.

    Zampanov on
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    OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Zampanov wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »

    On the other hand, "There is nothing cruel about eating the meats of those animals, especially because out in the wilderness they wouldn't survive, and even if they did, they would die violent death," is a non-sequitor line of reasoning, and a plainly obvious one.

    If the reason someone doesn't eat meat is that the animal is treated cruelly and dies painfully, then I fail to see how it's a non-sequitur to suggest meat from farms that don't treat the animals this way is preferable to their natural habitat where they'd literally be eaten alive.

    Introductory question before I could give my take: Would you prefer to be alive or dead?

    Octoparrot on
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    ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »

    On the other hand, "There is nothing cruel about eating the meats of those animals, especially because out in the wilderness they wouldn't survive, and even if they did, they would die violent death," is a non-sequitor line of reasoning, and a plainly obvious one.

    If the reason someone doesn't eat meat is that the animal is treated cruelly and dies painfully, then I fail to see how it's a non-sequitur to suggest meat from farms that don't treat the animals this way is preferable to their natural habitat where they'd literally be eaten alive.

    Introductory question before I could give my take: Would you prefer to be alive or dead?

    Everything dies, if it's the treatment and pain inflicted that matters, then the farms that treat their animals well and kill humanely would be preferable to nature even. The Ender was talking like that part was irrelevant to the conversation. I disagreed.

    Zampanov on
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    OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »

    On the other hand, "There is nothing cruel about eating the meats of those animals, especially because out in the wilderness they wouldn't survive, and even if they did, they would die violent death," is a non-sequitor line of reasoning, and a plainly obvious one.

    If the reason someone doesn't eat meat is that the animal is treated cruelly and dies painfully, then I fail to see how it's a non-sequitur to suggest meat from farms that don't treat the animals this way is preferable to their natural habitat where they'd literally be eaten alive.

    Introductory question before I could give my take: Would you prefer to be alive or dead?

    Everything dies, if it's the treatment and pain inflicted that matters, then the farms that treat their animals well and kill humanely would be preferable to nature even. The Ender was talking like that part was irrelevant to the conversation. I disagreed.

    You didn't answer my question, though.

    Octoparrot on
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    ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »

    On the other hand, "There is nothing cruel about eating the meats of those animals, especially because out in the wilderness they wouldn't survive, and even if they did, they would die violent death," is a non-sequitor line of reasoning, and a plainly obvious one.

    If the reason someone doesn't eat meat is that the animal is treated cruelly and dies painfully, then I fail to see how it's a non-sequitur to suggest meat from farms that don't treat the animals this way is preferable to their natural habitat where they'd literally be eaten alive.

    Introductory question before I could give my take: Would you prefer to be alive or dead?

    Everything dies, if it's the treatment and pain inflicted that matters, then the farms that treat their animals well and kill humanely would be preferable to nature even. The Ender was talking like that part was irrelevant to the conversation. I disagreed.

    You didn't answer my question, though.

    I inferred your point and skipped ahead. You can pretend I answered it and yell GOTCHA if you want.

    Zampanov on
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    OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »

    On the other hand, "There is nothing cruel about eating the meats of those animals, especially because out in the wilderness they wouldn't survive, and even if they did, they would die violent death," is a non-sequitor line of reasoning, and a plainly obvious one.

    If the reason someone doesn't eat meat is that the animal is treated cruelly and dies painfully, then I fail to see how it's a non-sequitur to suggest meat from farms that don't treat the animals this way is preferable to their natural habitat where they'd literally be eaten alive.

    Introductory question before I could give my take: Would you prefer to be alive or dead?

    Everything dies, if it's the treatment and pain inflicted that matters, then the farms that treat their animals well and kill humanely would be preferable to nature even. The Ender was talking like that part was irrelevant to the conversation. I disagreed.

    You didn't answer my question, though.

    I inferred your point and skipped ahead. You can pretend I answered it and yell GOTCHA if you want.

    Gotcha.

    Octoparrot on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    If the reason someone doesn't eat meat is that the animal is treated cruelly and dies painfully, then I fail to see how it's a non-sequitur to suggest meat from farms that don't treat the animals this way is preferable to their natural habitat where they'd literally be eaten alive.

    Well no - but you re-framed the issue. Look at the original again:

    "There is nothing cruel about eating the meats of those animals, especially because out in the wilderness they wouldn't survive, and even if they did, they would die violent death,"

    This statement is saying, essentially, 'Animals die, sometimes in cruel ways, therefore killing an animal is not cruel.'

    That's a non-sequitor.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The Ender wrote: »
    If the reason someone doesn't eat meat is that the animal is treated cruelly and dies painfully, then I fail to see how it's a non-sequitur to suggest meat from farms that don't treat the animals this way is preferable to their natural habitat where they'd literally be eaten alive.

    Well no - but you re-framed the issue. Look at the original again:

    "There is nothing cruel about eating the meats of those animals, especially because out in the wilderness they wouldn't survive, and even if they did, they would die violent death,"

    This statement is saying, essentially, 'Animals die, sometimes in cruel ways, therefore killing an animal is not cruel.'

    That's a non-sequitor.

    I don't think I re-framed, I think you're arguing some pretty thin semantics on what was said. I worded it better is all.

    Unless I'm wrong and they mean something completely different, in which case go for it.

    Zampanov on
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