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Fundamentalist Militant [Vegetarianism] and [Veganism]

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    HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    many jainists won't eat anything made with yeast

    jainists are really, really hardcore about the non-injury of life thing

    Are we sure this is because yeast is alive and not because of some other sort religious taboo?
    Because I can't really think of any organic matter less capable of suffering than yeast.

    Hachface on
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    PelPel Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    I have yet to enjoy a vegetarian product emulating a meat product.

    However, I have enjoyed many vegetarian dishes that contain no meat and contain no atttempted meat.

    Some meat alternatives are pretty good in their own right even thought they taste virtually nothing like the real thing. I'm not a big fan of fake-meat, though. In some cases, I use Boca (or whatever) simply for texture or filler, but even then it takes some serious doctoring to make it palatable. A dry, plain Boca Burger can provide the base for an adequate sandwich, but you essentially have to treat it like a dry, plain, beef pattie: dismember it and refry it with fresh onions, garlic, and red pepper until it resembles a decent meal (but not beef).
    Pony wrote: »
    Question for all the vegans/vegetarians out there:

    If cultured meat were made palatable (it currently really isn't but that's a technological limitation that will change), would you eat it? Would you consider it an ethical foodstuff?

    I'm curious as to where people stand on this, because amongst my non-omnivorous friends it proves to be a divisive issue.
    I personally probably would never eat such a product, simply because over the years meat itself has become largely distasteful to me, not because of any ethical reason. I'm just too set in my ways to change, or even want to change, at this point.

    Pel on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Hachface wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    many jainists won't eat anything made with yeast

    jainists are really, really hardcore about the non-injury of life thing

    Are we sure this is because yeast is alive and not because of some other sort religious taboo?
    Because I can't really think of any organic matter less capable of suffering than yeast.

    bacteria

    OO OOO

    extremeophiles!

    Arch on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    every single person inevitable establishes a border of "these are things i will not eat"

    mrmister and peter singer, for example, stop that line at creatures capable of suffering

    i stop that line firmly at humans, but also there's a few bumps in that line of other things i won't eat. primates, cetaceans, and horses, for example.

    people who try to make their line ALL LIFE with no exceptions even for bacteria essentially live an impossible life of constant guilt over bacteria and stuff

    it's ludicrous

    most of the jains i have met, for example, take their non-injury of life incredibly seriously but are also somewhat uneducated on the sheer massive amount of "living" things that they consume, destroy, and kill with even the most basic actions, let alone eating.

    but they don't really think about that because they don't really know about it

    Pony on
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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Pel wrote: »
    I personally probably would never eat such a product, simply because over the years meat itself has become largely distasteful to me, not because of any ethical reason. I'm just too set in my ways to change, or even want to change, at this point.

    Yeah, at this point I probably would only eat it rarely even if it were to exist, especially since it would likely be at least as expensive as the real stuff. I wouldn't have any ethical objection to it though.

    MrMister on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    fuck dude i don't even care

    if i can eat it i will eat it

    however if getting that food into my gullet is extremely damaging ecologically* i will try and minimize the damage as much as possible

    and i would like what i eat to go out how i would like to go out; as quickly and painlessly as possible

    *i am aware that large scale agriculture is ALSO damaging, but considering that most factory farms raise their animals on grains that are ALSO dangerously farmed, eating meat is then an environmental two-fer in my opinion

    but i buy local responsibly farmed veggies anyway as much as possible so its a wash

    Arch on
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    HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So there exists a class (or several classes) of people who follow dietary restrictions that are patently unreasonable.

    OK.

    What is important is that we all realize that this does not change the fact that the OP is full of fail.

    Hachface on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I examined my own reasoning for my omnivorous diet and I asked myself "Am I comfortable with other living creatures suffering, no matter how briefly or "humanely", and dying just so that I can eat the food I enjoy?"

    I thought long and hard about that question, and the conclusion I came to was yes.

    Yes I am.

    Pony on
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    nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    I wouldn't eat a human, but I don't know where I'd draw the line after that. I've tried just about everything I could get my hands on, including horse and whale. I probably wouldn't eat a primate though. But I've never been in a situation where somebody offered me a roasted monkey, and I don't know what I would do till give the chance.

    I think the only thing that gave me pause was live sashimi, which was an odd experience.

    nstf on
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    Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Vegans who are anti-honey mystify me.

    I wonder if they only adhere to the stance out of a misguided attempt to make their "NO ANIMAL PRODUCTS" viewpoint absolute and without exception for the sake of having a firm belief system.

    technically

    bees die during collection: some are actually crushed removing the combs from the hive

    in addition the smoking process can asphyxiate some of them as well

    so

    i gueeessssss

    but isn't the pain capacity of insects to actually register suffering sort of debated in the entomology community anyway?

    i mean if you pull the wings off a bee it'll obviously flail about as if it is in pain

    but has a conclusion been reached that it actually is?

    or is that crustaceans i am thinking of

    i know there's a huge debate in biology on the subject of invertebrate nervous systems

    i am fairly certain they all have nociceptors; as to what that means it is hard to say

    Hell i think even cnidarians have nociceptors, but don't quote me on that

    The way I see it, arthropods are not higher life forms, except for maybe some of the larger crustaceans like lobsters that actually have distinctive behaviors. However, I still act nice to them because then I can assure that
    a) if they do feel pain it's not my fault
    and b) I like to feel like I'm not a jerkass. As a Buddhist, I like to feel like I should act to all beings pretty much equally, even if I am not inherently equal in a physical sense. This then helps my mindset in dealing with people. As of late I've been trying to make my outward personality less of a jerkass/sarcastic one, so yeah.
    and c) because insects are fucking cool. But then again, all life is freaking awesome. I should note here that I do eat honey and occasionally fish. But I at least think to respect what I'm eating. I know soldiers in a warzone go crazy if they try to rationalize murder, which is why I'm vegetarian. I think too fucking much to go through with it.

    I could be a lot more nihilistic about my views than I am. I am quite conscious of the fact I am just a bunch of atoms in a reproductive mechanical construct composed of proteins with a superefficient computer encased in my upper regions. I'm honestly often occasionally surprised I'm not a sociopath.

    On artificialized meat protein: If it can be well made at a cost lower than the equivalent animal protein I am all for it. Remember, I'm vegetarian more in protest of factory farming. I honestly feel like the way Americans treat food is indicative of our society. And I hate American society. There are other reasons, but this fucking country's complete disregard for quality of food seems to be at the core of our decay.

    Mortal Sky on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Vegans who are anti-honey mystify me.

    I wonder if they only adhere to the stance out of a misguided attempt to make their "NO ANIMAL PRODUCTS" viewpoint absolute and without exception for the sake of having a firm belief system.

    technically

    bees die during collection: some are actually crushed removing the combs from the hive

    in addition the smoking process can asphyxiate some of them as well

    so

    i gueeessssss

    but isn't the pain capacity of insects to actually register suffering sort of debated in the entomology community anyway?

    i mean if you pull the wings off a bee it'll obviously flail about as if it is in pain

    but has a conclusion been reached that it actually is?

    or is that crustaceans i am thinking of

    i know there's a huge debate in biology on the subject of invertebrate nervous systems

    i am fairly certain they all have nociceptors; as to what that means it is hard to say

    Hell i think even cnidarians have nociceptors, but don't quote me on that

    The way I see it, arthropods are not higher life forms, except for maybe some of the larger crustaceans like lobsters that actually have distinctive behaviors. However, I still act nice to them because then I can assure that
    a) if they do feel pain it's not my fault
    and b) I like to feel like I'm not a jerkass. As a Buddhist, I like to feel like I should act to all beings pretty much equally, even if I am not inherently equal in a physical sense. This then helps my mindset in dealing with people. As of late I've been trying to make my outward personality less of a jerkass/sarcastic one, so yeah.
    and c) because insects are fucking cool. But then again, all life is freaking awesome.

    I could be a lot more nihilistic about my views than I am. I am quite conscious of the fact I am just a bunch of atoms in a reproductive mechanical construct composed of proteins with a superefficient computer encased in my upper regions. I'm honestly often occasionally surprised I'm not a sociopath.

    On artificialized meat protein: If it can be well made at a cost lower than the equivalent animal protein I am all for it. Remember, I'm vegetarian more in protest of factory farming. I honestly feel like the way Americans treat food is indicative of our society. And I hate American society. There are other reasons, but this fucking country's complete disregard for quality of food seems to be at the core of our decay.

    I rarely engage people who are ostensibly of the same religion as myself but it is nonetheless intriguing how a person can have a near-identical belief and value system and nonetheless come to very different behavioral conclusions.

    Life's funny like that.

    Pony on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Mortal Sky- You realize that there are a lot of insects with social patterns and behaviors much more structured than any crustacean right?

    I mean I am on your side, I just want you to know that. Insects are THE most successful eusocially structured organism on the planet, with pistol shrimp (certain species) and then mole rats following behind.

    Arch on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Pony- interestingly enough I flirt with an atheistic buddhism born out of some very strange modifications of Pema Chodron's work

    Arch on
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    OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So wait how are you guys Buddhist if you don't follow the first precept? Is it like a "Christian" kleptomaniac?

    Octoparrot on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    So wait how are you guys Buddhist if you don't follow the first precept? Is it like a "Christian" kleptomaniac?

    what on earth are you talking about

    Pony on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Octoparrot wrote: »
    So wait how are you guys Buddhist if you don't follow the first precept? Is it like a "Christian" kleptomaniac?

    i flirt with it

    that is i am uneasy about ascribing a single label to my view on spirituality, the world, interpersonal relations etc etc

    but a lot of buddhist ideas are very appealing to me

    i very much enjoy the concept of enlightenment through observation of the natural world as metaphor, for obvious reasons

    Arch on
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    Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    Mortal Sky- You realize that there are a lot of insects with social patterns and behaviors much more structured than any crustacean right?

    I mean I am on your side, I just want you to know that. Insects are THE most successful eusocially structured organism on the planet, with pistol shrimp (certain species) and then mole rats following behind.

    Yeah. It's weird to rationalize because I've never really come to conclusions on it. I try to engage my vegetarianism on a case by case basis. I'm a lot younger than most posters on this forum, so although perhaps advanced for my age I'm still perhaps at a point were I haven't seen enough to come to a conclusion.

    And Pony, I completely see what you mean. I am incredibly sympathetic to the points you made, but I guess I just possess some different view on empathy that leads to that slight difference. And I have affirmed that I will likely at some point have to eat meat (Well, I will for living in Japan with a host family and I've already sworn to go through with it for those ten months), but I've affirmed that yeah, primate and cetacean are never going to cross my lips. Yeah, I know that will potentially be a bitch for said time in Japan.

    EDIT - On Buddhism: I know I'm not perfect. I do what I can.

    Mortal Sky on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited May 2010
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    I'm a lot younger than most posters on this forum

    how you doin'

    my name's john

    Organichu on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Organichu wrote: »
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    I'm a lot younger than most posters on this forum

    how you doin'

    my name's john

    169828-good-girl-bad-girl-chris-hansen.jpg

    Pony on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    Mortal Sky- You realize that there are a lot of insects with social patterns and behaviors much more structured than any crustacean right?

    I mean I am on your side, I just want you to know that. Insects are THE most successful eusocially structured organism on the planet, with pistol shrimp (certain species) and then mole rats following behind.

    Yeah. It's weird to rationalize because I've never really come to conclusions on it. I try to engage my vegetarianism on a case by case basis. I'm a lot younger than most posters on this forum, so although perhaps advanced for my age I'm still perhaps at a point were I haven't seen enough to come to a conclusion.

    <- semi-pro invertebrate biologist with a terrible fondness for bees and other social insects

    I take the E.O. Wilson approach to them (which is possibly the only time I will ever say that)

    Arch on
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    nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    Mortal Sky- You realize that there are a lot of insects with social patterns and behaviors much more structured than any crustacean right?

    I mean I am on your side, I just want you to know that. Insects are THE most successful eusocially structured organism on the planet, with pistol shrimp (certain species) and then mole rats following behind.

    Yeah. It's weird to rationalize because I've never really come to conclusions on it. I try to engage my vegetarianism on a case by case basis. I'm a lot younger than most posters on this forum, so although perhaps advanced for my age I'm still perhaps at a point were I haven't seen enough to come to a conclusion.

    And Pony, I completely see what you mean. I am incredibly sympathetic to the points you made, but I guess I just possess some different view on empathy that leads to that slight difference. And I have affirmed that I will likely at some point have to eat meat (Well, I will for living in Japan with a host family and I've already sworn to go through with it for those ten months), but I've affirmed that yeah, primate and cetacean are never going to cross my lips. Yeah, I know that will potentially be a bitch for said time in Japan.

    When I was in Japan I never ran across primate. I did eat the whale, just to see what all the hub-bub was about. You probably won't have to eat it, it's extremely expensive. They do eat horse there, but I don't think that's a special meat.

    The food there that will give you the most pause for thought, and is kinda common, is live sashimi. You can see the fish gasping and head moving while you eat him. I'd say it's worth it for the experience.

    On the plus side, Japanese treat their cows extremely well. The cows for kobe beef get daily rub downs and eat only the finest food. It's rather different then how we get our beef.

    nstf on
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    Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    Mortal Sky- You realize that there are a lot of insects with social patterns and behaviors much more structured than any crustacean right?

    I mean I am on your side, I just want you to know that. Insects are THE most successful eusocially structured organism on the planet, with pistol shrimp (certain species) and then mole rats following behind.

    Yeah. It's weird to rationalize because I've never really come to conclusions on it. I try to engage my vegetarianism on a case by case basis. I'm a lot younger than most posters on this forum, so although perhaps advanced for my age I'm still perhaps at a point were I haven't seen enough to come to a conclusion.

    And Pony, I completely see what you mean. I am incredibly sympathetic to the points you made, but I guess I just possess some different view on empathy that leads to that slight difference. And I have affirmed that I will likely at some point have to eat meat (Well, I will for living in Japan with a host family and I've already sworn to go through with it for those ten months), but I've affirmed that yeah, primate and cetacean are never going to cross my lips. Yeah, I know that will potentially be a bitch for said time in Japan.

    When I was in Japan I never ran across primate. I did eat the whale, just to see what all the hub-bub was about. You probably won't have to eat it, it's extremely expensive. They do eat horse there, but I don't think that's a special meat.

    The food there that will give you the most pause for thought, and is kinda common, is live sashimi. You can see the fish gasping and head moving while you eat him. I'd say it's worth it for the experience.

    On the plus side, Japanese treat their cows extremely well. The cows for kobe beef get daily rub downs and eat only the finest food. It's rather different then how we get our beef.

    Yeah, I was alluding to whale. Live sashimi sounds like it could be a little much, though. I'm extremely empathetic, so I don't think it'd go over too well.

    Isn't kobe beef fairly rare as far as meat goes? Or is that just how it is for America? I know the Japanese love them some pork.

    EDIT: Also, off topic, but god fucking damn it fat vegetarians piss me off.

    Mortal Sky on
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    nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    I was alluding to whale.

    Extremely expensive, probably won't happen. I know you can get dolphin meat but I don't know the details about that.
    Isn't kobe beef fairly rare as far as meat goes? Or is that just how it is for America?

    Kinda, but not like here. More to the point since Japan doesn't have the land to cattle farm like the US, they make more of an effort into the meat they can produce. So the quality is better and IIRC they don't really do mass farming at all.
    Live sashimi sounds like it could be a little much, though.

    Well, to give you an idea

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW-b0ytMW2M

    I wouldn't call it fully alive. Since it's been chopped up, it's more just thrashing around. I do know you can take a live octopus and wrap it around chop sticks and down it, but that's dangerous.

    nstf on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    that live sashimi thing is actually kind of disturbing to me duder

    just sayin'

    and you are talking to a man who has torn apart embryonic chickens by the dozen for science

    their hearts were still beating

    Arch on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited May 2010
    i did the live octopus thing

    Organichu on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I wouldn't dig live sashimi, and I'm a guy who has shot deer and field dressed them myself.

    Pony on
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    ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited May 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    that live sashimi thing is actually kind of disturbing to me duder

    just sayin'

    and you are talking to a man who has torn apart embryonic chickens by the dozen for science

    their hearts were still beating

    Did you ever dissect frogs? The hearts beat for hours after they're dead. It's... pretty cool, actually.

    Shivahn on
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    ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Fuck all that sushi crap. COOK MY FOOD.

    Zampanov on
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    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    that live sashimi thing is actually kind of disturbing to me duder

    just sayin'

    and you are talking to a man who has torn apart embryonic chickens by the dozen for science

    their hearts were still beating

    Did you ever dissect frogs? The hearts beat for hours after they're dead. It's... pretty cool, actually.

    yeah- worms are the same way

    Arch on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Fuck all that sushi crap. COOK MY FOOD.

    pussy

    Pony on
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    ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Zampanov wrote: »
    Fuck all that sushi crap. COOK MY FOOD.

    pussy

    Pussy, I'll eat. No sushi!

    Zampanov on
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    PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    "abloo bloo bloo, i'm such a dainty flower i need a big strong man to cook all my food before i can eat it"

    eat some raw red meat and get back to me

    if you live

    Pony on
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    Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    that live sashimi thing is actually kind of disturbing to me duder

    just sayin'

    and you are talking to a man who has torn apart embryonic chickens by the dozen for science

    their hearts were still beating

    I cut up a fetal pig last year in high school bio. Lobotomy is a weird process when you're the only guy in the class with the huevos to do it. Normally that's reserved for the AP Bio kids. I outright decided that because it was for science it was more OK than usual. And yes, I know the whole rat's nest of implications about experimentation that could entail. Don't go there.

    Mortal Sky on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    nstf wrote: »

    Most people don't like having another persons code of ethics and morality shoved on them. Which is what the majority of the vegans do.

    Citation Needed

    PotatoNinja on
    Two goats enter, one car leaves
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    ZampanovZampanov You May Not Go Home Until Tonight Has Been MagicalRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    "abloo bloo bloo, i'm such a dainty flower i need a big strong man to cook all my food before i can eat it"

    eat some raw red meat and get back to me

    if you live

    I.. thought I made it clear that cooked food is the way to go.

    Actually my sister made me try some sushi that did have cooked food in it (and barbecue sauce) and it was pretty good.

    The raw stuff just wasn't very good imo. It could also be that it was kind of a mediocre sushi place, though.

    Zampanov on
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    Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    nstf wrote: »

    Most people don't like having another persons code of ethics and morality shoved on them. Which is what the majority of the vegans do.

    Citation Needed

    It's really more like the only vegans you ever hear about are shoving it down your throat.

    People who honestly put vegetarians (of any degree) in the same category as other minority groups (I've met people who seriously thought I was gay for it) need a good lesson. I mean, bigoting against anyone is bad, obviously, but I find it hilarious how some people think they equate to each other. Also communism.

    Mortal Sky on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mediocre sushi is like mediocre steak

    should be a felony, but isn't

    Pony on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »

    Most people don't like having another persons code of ethics and morality shoved on them. Which is what the majority of the vegans do.

    Citation Needed

    It's really more like the only vegans you ever hear about are shoving it down your throat.

    People who honestly put vegetarians (of any degree) in the same category as other minority groups (I've met people who seriously thought I was gay for it) need a good lesson.

    Yeah we should eat them

    Arch on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    mediocre sushi is like mediocre steak

    should be a felony, but isn't

    agree with 100%

    that being said i make some awesome homemade sushis

    i made tamago once it was so good i need to do it again sometime

    Arch on
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    Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    mediocre sushi is like mediocre steak

    should be a felony, but isn't
    I kinda want to sig this this or report it for awesome or something.

    Mortal Sky on
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