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Fundamentalist Militant [Vegetarianism] and [Veganism]

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    HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Speaker wrote: »
    Protein said in the OP that most of the vegan/vegetarians he had personally met were obnoxious militants about it.

    I hope by this point someone has pointed out that people who are vegetarians or vegans and aren't obnoxious about their preference will naturally not be bringing it to his attention. If you aren't being obnoxious about it, whether you are a vegetarian or not doesn't automatically come up in conversation.

    So his view of how obnoxious or not vegetarians/vegans are on average can't really be informed by personal experience.

    It is always brought to my attention when I inevitably hang out with them by going out to eat or inviting them over for lunch/dinner. I've actually met maybe two people who didn't say "im vegetarian/vegan" without an air of superiority and then, unprompted, went on to explain why. Either they really felt like they had to explain themselves (because I didn't ask why they were veg/s), or they were trying to use emotional blackmail to make me feel guilty about eating meat.

    Your sensitivity is touching.

    Hachface on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    oldsak wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »

    This was your response to me comparing an asshole carnivore to an asshole vegetarian and putting them on the same level.

    I've had friends turn down meals because I don't cook with meat and they like meat. It really shouldn't be an issue if someone doesn't want to eat your food. "No thanks I'm really in the mood for chicken" doesn't make you a bad person. "No thanks I don't eat chicken" also doesn't make you a bad person.

    Unless you're dining with Victorian nobility I think its ok to say "no."

    Really? I think it's a little rude. I mean, not as rude as say, sleeping with your host's spouse, but a little rude nonetheless. Granted most people in our society will understand if a vegetarian turns down meat as vegetarianism is not uncommon.

    However, if I were to visit a third world country however and turn down the meal because of its content it would be a much bigger deal.

    Would intentionally hiding the fact that you're a vegetarian and just pretending that you are never hungry be better?

    "Want a hamburger?"

    "No thanks."


    "How about some jerky?"

    "No thanks."

    "Ham sandwhich?"

    "No I'm good."

    "Are you feeling ok?"

    "Totally fine."

    "You never eat over here, is something wrong? Do you think I'm a bad cook?"

    "I'm just never hungry near you. Pure coincidence."

    What exactly is the proper protocol here? Can vegetarians admit to being veggies if questioned? Can they state it on the second date? Can they mention it after being asked twice? If a vegetarian hides their dietary restriction and their host keeps offering them food, who should be embarassed at a later date when their vegetarianism is revealed?

    This is stupid. Really stupid. If you're a vegetarian and someone offers you meat you can turn it down and included in that refusal can be the fact that you don't eat meat. If that's offensive you have issues.

    PotatoNinja on
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    Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    Hachface wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Protein said in the OP that most of the vegan/vegetarians he had personally met were obnoxious militants about it.

    I hope by this point someone has pointed out that people who are vegetarians or vegans and aren't obnoxious about their preference will naturally not be bringing it to his attention. If you aren't being obnoxious about it, whether you are a vegetarian or not doesn't automatically come up in conversation.

    So his view of how obnoxious or not vegetarians/vegans are on average can't really be informed by personal experience.

    It is always brought to my attention when I inevitably hang out with them by going out to eat or inviting them over for lunch/dinner. I've actually met maybe two people who didn't say "im vegetarian/vegan" without an air of superiority and then, unprompted, went on to explain why. Either they really felt like they had to explain themselves (because I didn't ask why they were veg/s), or they were trying to use emotional blackmail to make me feel guilty about eating meat.

    Your sensitivity is touching.

    So is your... lack of contribution to the discussion?

    Protein Shakes on
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    oldsakoldsak Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I have a vegetarian friend who was doing aid work in Latin America (I don't remember where). He was staying with a host family who were poor by any standard. While he was there he ate what they ate meat included.

    edit: in our society it's still rude not to eat what a host is serving you, it's just not considered as rude because food isn't scarce. It's acceptable to reject a meal for certain reasons, one of which is vegetarianism.

    oldsak on
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    citizenMckeecitizenMckee Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Interesting stuff. The vegan and veges I have known were also very unmilitant about it. Unless you were in their home ofcourse.

    I find both paths to be a respectable one, though thier reasoning is very questionable sometimes. There however can not be much doubt of our current state of meat production. It is very wrong. There are a lot of factors I think we judge an entitys moral weight. More so than nervous systems, and cellular activity. There is the capacity for personality, emotion, physical volume, nostalgic sake, age, rarity, assistance to other beings, usefulness, material(s) is it composed of, beauty, and a whole host of subjective meta data. For example, I would value an ancient tree over a hundred mice, and a human over a billion blades of grass, a spaceship over a pond, but a planet over a species, I have respect for all these things but they are not equal. Destruction for sustenance or any other reason is weighed from these and much more, if an object has pain or not is almost irrelevant to its destruction.

    citizenMckee on
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    Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    oldsak wrote: »
    I have a vegetarian friend who was doing aid work in Latin America (I don't remember where). He was staying with a host family who were poor by any standard. While he was there he ate what they ate meat included.

    Was he crying himself to sleep every night?

    Or maybe puking it in the toilet right after eating?

    Protein Shakes on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    oldsak wrote: »
    I have a vegetarian friend who was doing aid work in Latin America (I don't remember where). He was staying with a host family who were poor by any standard. While he was there he ate what they ate meat included.

    Was he crying himself to sleep every night?

    Or maybe puking it in the toilet right after eating?

    Seriously? Seriously?

    This is insulting.

    Arch on
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    lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    oldsak wrote: »
    I have a vegetarian friend who was doing aid work in Latin America (I don't remember where). He was staying with a host family who were poor by any standard. While he was there he ate what they ate meat included.

    Was he crying himself to sleep every night?

    Or maybe puking it in the toilet right after eating?

    People are sharing ancedotes on both sides in this thread. Try to be civil.

    lazegamer on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    oldsak wrote: »
    I have a vegetarian friend who was doing aid work in Latin America (I don't remember where). He was staying with a host family who were poor by any standard. While he was there he ate what they ate meat included.

    That's his choice and up to him. He could also have eaten his own food without any meat it in. Also up to him. Is he obligated to eat what the family provides? Can he make his own meals if he provides his own food?

    Seriously, this entire tangent is dumb. Being a vegetarian isn't a crime, you can mention it and nobody has a right to be offended about it.

    PotatoNinja on
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    oldsakoldsak Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    oldsak wrote: »
    I have a vegetarian friend who was doing aid work in Latin America (I don't remember where). He was staying with a host family who were poor by any standard. While he was there he ate what they ate meat included.

    Was he crying himself to sleep every night?

    Or maybe puking it in the toilet right after eating?

    Wat?

    No he's not 10.

    oldsak on
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    Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    It was a tongue in cheek comment. I forgot to put the :P thing there. Sorry.

    Protein Shakes on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    oldsak wrote: »
    I have a vegetarian friend who was doing aid work in Latin America (I don't remember where). He was staying with a host family who were poor by any standard. While he was there he ate what they ate meat included.

    Was he crying himself to sleep every night?

    Or maybe puking it in the toilet right after eating?

    Seriously? Seriously?

    This is insulting.

    Did you even read the OP? Vegan Rage. That isn't a joke term I made up.

    PotatoNinja on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    *sigh*

    I guess its a good thing I got these psychic powers

    C'mere protein, we gots a score to settle....

    Arch on
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    nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    I have not ever met any vegetarian who was a silly goose

    in other news: I know how to make friends with people whose company I enjoy, and avoid people whose company I do not enjoy.

    Anecdotal at it's finest. Virtually all the vegetarians I have met were giant assholes and extremely self righteous about it. I'd say their "holier then thou" levels and shoving of their views was on the level of the evangelicals or anti abortion fanatics.

    But then again, my experience is anecdotal as well.

    My basic problem with it is my basic problem with most lifestyle choices. It's very easy to wrap up a lot of who you are in it and go overboard. I've ran into a few vegetarians that didn't preach about it, and I have no problem with it. Up till they try and sneak something like tofu chili or tofurkey on me, which is always bad. No, us meat eaters do not want a substitute for something that was originally a meat dish, it tastes foul as hell. I don't care if you eat it, but don't sneak it on me and I won't sneak meat into your food.

    nstf on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    I have not ever met any vegetarian who was a silly goose

    in other news: I know how to make friends with people whose company I enjoy, and avoid people whose company I do not enjoy.

    Anecdotal at it's finest. Virtually all the vegetarians I have met were giant assholes and extremely self righteous about it. I'd say their "holier then thou" levels and shoving of their views was on the level of the evangelicals or anti abortion fanatics.

    But then again, my experience is anecdotal as well.

    My basic problem with it is my basic problem with most lifestyle choices. It's very easy to wrap up a lot of who you are in it and go overboard. I've ran into a few vegetarians that didn't preach about it, and I have no problem with it. Up till they try and sneak something like tofu chili or tofurkey on me, which is always bad. No, us meat eaters do not want a substitute for something that was originally a meat dish, it tastes foul as hell. I don't care if you eat it, but don't sneak it on me and I won't sneak meat into your food.

    Can we please, PLEASE not do this?

    Arch on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    My anecdotes are better than your anecdotes.

    Of course that's just based on my personal experiences.

    PotatoNinja on
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    oldsakoldsak Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    oldsak wrote: »
    I have a vegetarian friend who was doing aid work in Latin America (I don't remember where). He was staying with a host family who were poor by any standard. While he was there he ate what they ate meat included.

    That's his choice and up to him. He could also have eaten his own food without any meat it in. Also up to him. Is he obligated to eat what the family provides? Can he make his own meals if he provides his own food?

    Seriously, this entire tangent is dumb. Being a vegetarian isn't a crime, you can mention it and nobody has a right to be offended about it.

    Of course he wasn't obligated, he didn't want to insult them. They were doing their best to be hospitable and probably stretching their means to do so. Seriously, what's he going to do? Give them the impression that their best food isn't good enough for him?

    I'm not suggesting it's a crime to be vegetarian.

    In the first world, food isn't scarce so a host isn't as likely to take a rejection of his meal personally. But rejecting one's hospitality, especially when it's the best he can provide, is generally considered rude.

    Your friends who turned down your meals because they didn't have meat in them were being rude.

    oldsak on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    oldsak wrote: »

    Your friends who turned down your meals because they didn't have meat in them were being rude.

    This is news to me.

    PotatoNinja on
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    oldsakoldsak Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    It was a tongue in cheek comment. I forgot to put the :P thing there. Sorry.

    Darn interweb and it's lack of subtext

    oldsak on
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    Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    oldsak wrote: »
    It was a tongue in cheek comment. I forgot to put the :P thing there. Sorry.

    Darn interweb and it's lack of subtext

    i know right. still though, my mistake.

    Protein Shakes on
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    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    This is stupid. Really stupid. If you're a vegetarian and someone offers you meat you can turn it down and included in that refusal can be the fact that you don't eat meat. If that's offensive you have issues.

    If you know they're preparing a meal and don't mention restrictions before they go through the effort of cooking for you, and then reject the food, that's extremely rude.

    If you don't know they're cooking and they surprise you with something you can't eat - for example, it has peanut oil and you're allergic to peanuts - that's a different story.

    BubbaT on
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Yeah, I think we can draw a distinction between going to a middle-class person's house in the US and going to a farmer's house in a developing country, and turning down meals at each.

    Obviously anybody has the right to decide what goes into their bodies, and I'm not saying anybody should just chow down, but when someone living at the subsistence level offers you something and you turn it down, you can't really be surprised if they get a little offended. Even something you literally cannot eat - like a severe allergic reaction - is probably going to hurt someone's feelings, unfortunately. An offer of food is one of the most basic forms of reciprocity in the animal kingdom and it's pretty much sacred in a lot of places and cultures.

    However, I'd say this situation happens so infrequently that it's barely worth mentioning. Unless you're in the Peace Corps or some similar situation, or living well below poverty line yourself, it's really not going to be something that happens. And if you're working in the Peace Corps, you're probably making a lot bigger adjustments to your life than partaking of a meal at somebody's house every great once in a while.

    Duffel on
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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    oldsak wrote: »

    Your friends who turned down your meals because they didn't have meat in them were being rude.

    This is news to me.

    I would be quite offended if someone turned down a meal I made because it didn't have meat in it. That's just a dick move.

    MrMister on
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    Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    oldsak wrote: »

    Your friends who turned down your meals because they didn't have meat in them were being rude.

    This is news to me.

    I would be quite offended if someone turned down a meal I made because it didn't have meat in it. That's just a dick move.

    Would it be rude to turn it down if it had components designed to imitate meat, such as tofurkey?

    Protein Shakes on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    oldsak wrote: »

    Your friends who turned down your meals because they didn't have meat in them were being rude.

    This is news to me.

    I would be quite offended if someone turned down a meal I made because it didn't have meat in it. That's just a dick move.

    "Do you want me to make you something to eat?"

    "No thanks I like meat."

    I mean if they had requested I cook for them, and I did, and then they said "HA-HA YOU HAVE ACTIVATED MY CARNIVORE CARD I WON'T EAT THIS SHIT!" yeah I'd be pissed but mostly because they tricked me into wasting food and the eat-or-don't-eat-meat thing wouldn't even matter.

    If someone is rude, and is rude in a way that is related to food, then that's still rude. If a vegetarian cuts you off on the interstate that's rude but the fact that they're a vegetarian is not really relevant.

    PotatoNinja on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Would it be rude to turn it down if it had components designed to imitate meat, such as tofurkey?

    This is remarkably not-complicated.

    "I'm making <insert food here>, do you want some?"

    Y / N

    "OK."

    If you're a spy pretending to be a vegetarian and you're allergic to tofurkey and someone offers you tofurkey is it rude to refuse the tofurkey or should you initiate a stealth kill what the fuck just let people accept or refuse food.

    PotatoNinja on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    oldsak wrote: »

    Your friends who turned down your meals because they didn't have meat in them were being rude.

    This is news to me.

    I would be quite offended if someone turned down a meal I made because it didn't have meat in it. That's just a dick move.

    Would it be rude to turn it down if it had components designed to imitate meat, such as tofurkey?

    Depends on the reasoning

    "I only eat meat and not imitation" "Okay, but why?"

    "Its not that healthy" -Fine, but tell me before hand next time
    "It doesn't taste right"- Fine, but tell me before hand next time
    "I am a strict carnivore and only eat real meat protein"- Fine, but TELL ME BEFOREHAND next time

    really this thread is getting silly. it started off stupid, and moved through ridiculous, then hit offensive, and now has gotten goofy.

    Arch on
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    nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    oldsak wrote: »

    Your friends who turned down your meals because they didn't have meat in them were being rude.

    This is news to me.

    I would be quite offended if someone turned down a meal I made because it didn't have meat in it. That's just a dick move.

    Making a meal for an non vegetarian and ripping out all the meat and replacing it with that fake stuff is cruel and sneaky. It doesn't taste good and often causes gas and bloating. That's just a dick move.

    If you are going to subject me to your diet based off your beliefs, notify me ahead of time, I'll make my own food.

    I'd never make a meal for the few non pushy vegetarians I know, or invite them to dinner and then surprise them with a meat based dinner. And since they aren't rude and pushy, they won't subject me to a vegetarian dinner.

    nstf on
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    OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    I'd never make a meal for the few non pushy vegetarians I know, or invite them to dinner and then surprise them with a meat based dinner. And since they aren't rude and pushy, they won't subject me to a vegetarian dinner.

    Quick someone post the picture of the dude from Scanners' head exploding.

    Octoparrot on
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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    I'd never make a meal for the few non pushy vegetarians I know, or invite them to dinner and then surprise them with a meat based dinner. And since they aren't rude and pushy, they won't subject me to a vegetarian dinner.

    One of these things is not like the other :whistle:

    "I don't think your food tastes very good" is not an acceptable reason to refuse hospitality. "I have an ideological belief which prevents me from eating your food," however, is an acceptable reason to refuse hospitality.

    MrMister on
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    zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    BubbaT wrote: »
    This is stupid. Really stupid. If you're a vegetarian and someone offers you meat you can turn it down and included in that refusal can be the fact that you don't eat meat. If that's offensive you have issues.

    If you know they're preparing a meal and don't mention restrictions before they go through the effort of cooking for you, and then reject the food, that's extremely rude.

    Most likely scenario is the host would know you're a vegetarian and they'd still cook with meat because the meal is not specifically for you but for you + N others.
    Turning down food for any reason is in no way rude, if you don't do it in a rude way and frankly, if I wasn't consulted about a menu/order I don't expect to be accommodated even by people who know I don't eat meat.

    Edit: Uuuh, I should probably mention that I don't believe I'm an "ideological vegetarian" in the sense used in this thread though.

    zeeny on
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Are there seriously people who "can't eat a meal without meat in it"?

    I mean, my metabolism is such that I usually have to eat at least a little meat or fish every day; anything else doesn't cut it and I get physically sick. But I've eaten meals with no meat in them many times - because there's lots of things people cook, like pasta or whatever - and I never refused it. I just got something else to eat later in the day.

    Some people are really picky eaters, apparently.

    Duffel on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »
    I'd never make a meal for the few non pushy vegetarians I know, or invite them to dinner and then surprise them with a meat based dinner. And since they aren't rude and pushy, they won't subject me to a vegetarian dinner.

    One of these things is not like the other :whistle:

    "I don't think your food tastes very good" is not an acceptable reason to refuse hospitality. "I have an ideological belief which prevents me from eating your food," however, is an acceptable reason to refuse hospitality.

    Actually "I don't want to eat this" is a fine reason to refuse food. Saying "I don't want to eat this and by the way your tofu shit tastes like death" is rude but, again, that's because its rude on its own and isn't related to meat v. vegetarian diets.

    Generally "I don't want to eat this" should suffice, but for vegetarians it is useful to establish that you don't want to eat meat to avoid embarrassing your host or constantly refusing food. Likewise "No thanks I don't like imitation meat" is a fine response.

    Has this thread been invaded by self-conscious cooks? Its ok to say no. Seriously.

    PotatoNinja on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Duffel wrote: »
    Are there seriously people who "can't eat a meal without meat in it"?

    Literally cannot for health reasons? Probably not.

    Don't want to? Sure.

    Some people really like meat. I don't feel any urge to shove vegetables down their throat against their will.

    PotatoNinja on
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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Has this thread been invaded by self-conscious cooks? Its ok to say no. Seriously.

    You make Ms. Manners sad.

    But that's not really related to vegetarianism so much as etiquette anyway.

    MrMister on
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Literally cannot for health reasons? Probably not.

    Don't want to? Sure.

    Some people really like meat. I don't feel any urge to shove vegetables down their throat against their will.
    I mean, like I say, I absolutely love meat. There's few things better in life, for instance, than chewing into a well-cooked ham hock.

    But I don't have to consume it at every single meal. The fact that I love a good prime rib is not going to stop me from partaking of a heaping bowl of pasta alfredo or stuffed ravioli or whatever.

    The only way I can see it actually being a problem is if you're eating at someone's house who's all into the whole, "I only eat raw vegetables" thing, and frankly if you do that you probably knew what you were getting into.

    Duffel on
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    Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    As a vegetarian for about eighteen months now, here's my POV:
    I'm fine with meat on a basic level, but I personally go vegetarian as an objection to factory farming. However, just to be a dick (kidding), I avoid all meat and avoid animal products as much as I can. However, I am going to Japan to stay with a host family for ten months starting in Fall, so I'm going to eat meat for that time period. The only boundary I'm drawing is a refusal to eat cetacean of any kind (whales).

    I also think that PETA tend to be crazy fucks. However, most PETA members are good people. It's just a)groupthinking PETA members b)their marketers and c) their bureaucrats and higher ups who are amoral shitcocks.
    The only action of terrorism in the world I will ever feel is merited, however, is Greenpeace fucking with Japanese and Norwegian whalers. If you can call it terrorism. I do think any other militant vegetarianism is pointless at best and only makes the sane ones of us look bad.

    Mortal Sky on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    As a vegetarian for about eighteen months now, here's my POV:
    I'm fine with meat on a basic level, but I personally go vegetarian as an objection to factory farming. However, just to be a dick (kidding), I avoid all meat and avoid animal products as much as I can.

    This is my POV as well. Just to further throw this into the scrambler, I am currently debating with myself (and fiancee, who is also Veg) about whether or not a bigger "blow" to the factory farming industry is not an abstinence from meat products, but rather a support of small scale, independent, responsible farming.

    But the niggling feeling is that I am just doing this to justify wanting to eat steak and seafood.

    Arch on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Bonus (sarcastic) points: if I do adopt an "only local, responsibly farmed meat" dietary outlook, I can still snobbishly scoff at people who buy factory farmed meat and hate on Ruby Tuesdays.

    Arch on
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    CommunistCowCommunistCow Abstract Metal ThingyRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    If it has been posted I'm sorry.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKTsWjbjQ8E

    Edit: I want to read the whole thread but I just don't have time. As for eating meat from non-cruel sources I've started trying to do this and its fucking hard for a few reasons.
    1) its 2+ times as expensive so this type of eating is really a luxury of the rich unless you really want to work your budget around it and give up other things.
    2) Labels fucking suck because things like "Free Range" don't actually mean what you think they mean.
    3) Even at places like Whole Foods you can't really tell where their meat comes from unless you check the farm on the package(if that is even on the label) and then try and do a ton of internet research. Which means its hard to find such things without going to a local farm and even then most farms do things like CSAs where you get fruits, veggies, eggs, and milk but it is harder to find ones where you can get meat.
    4) Most people don't have the time or energy to figure out 2 and 3.

    At this point I wish there were more guys like this and an easier way to find out where they sell their meat:
    Joel Salatin (watch Food Inc or some of the various other things he has been in Omnivore's Dilema / read the books he has written)
    salatin.jpg

    CommunistCow on
    No, I am not really communist. Yes, it is weird that I use this name.
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