Yeah, I don't think fire man drops frost. I'm not sure why they would've upgraded him from dropping triumph. It's pretty understandable to me that people don't care to do the fire guy, because you can just buy t9 with triumphs by doing heroics. If you're in VoA25 instead of 10, sure you have a shot at 245 t9 instead of the 232, but if you're in a VoA25 chances are at least 5 to 10 of those people are ICC raiders and they are not concerned with getting you t9. They want a shot at their t10 and then to roll out.
If the raid leader wants to kill the t9 boss first they can try to get people to do it, but even then there's no guarantee. I was in a VoA 25 with a shitty Warlock leader a few weeks back who made sure he was the only lock in the raid. He was actually trying to lead the raid to the t8 boss, rofl. All 24 of us besides him went straight for the ice guy so he had no choice but to follow. Then he kept putting up raid warnings about how we were going straight for the flame guy after the frost guy. As soon as loot was done from the frost guy most of us just left the group.
People who have no use for triumphs or t9 think it's a waste to spend 5 minutes killing the t9 boss. And I don't think VoA should have a 2x a week lockout. I already don't like VoA, because I already feel like I have to do it every week for a shot at free t10 even though I don't really want to. I really hope there isn't a level 85 version of it in Cata. I think it's great that people who don't raid can still eventually get t10 now, over a long period of time, but VoA is just such a copout. The bosses are ridiculously easy yet drop the highest tier. It just feels cheap and lame to me. This is not a casuals don't deserve t10 thing either, believe me. There's just something irritating to me about having insanely easy raid bosses that serve no real purpose other than to try to incentivize actually doing/winning WG for PvE focused players.
If they do a rehash of the Vault of Aids style raid, I hope there's a separate instance for each boss come Cataclysm. I hate how the current setup encourages people to bail after the guy they want to kill goes down.
If most of the raid wants to do the other bosses, I do them, but I'm not going to push for doing them myself, since really at most I would get is the mount out of it.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
If they'd put each boss in his own instance and had them drop class tokens instead of putting seventy individual armor pieces on a single loot table, the whole thing would be a lot less frustrating and actually serve the purpose for which it was intended.
If they do a rehash of the Vault of Aids style raid, I hope there's a separate instance for each boss come Cataclysm. I hate how the current setup encourages people to bail after the guy they want to kill goes down.
I'm really warming to that idea someone mentioned earlier: you don't get saved to a raid/dungeon, you get saved per boss.
That way you can do however many VoAs you want in a week, but you'll just be eligible for loot once per lockout.
If they do a rehash of the Vault of Aids style raid, I hope there's a separate instance for each boss come Cataclysm. I hate how the current setup encourages people to bail after the guy they want to kill goes down.
I'm really warming to that idea someone mentioned earlier: you don't get saved to a raid/dungeon, you get saved per boss.
That way you can do however many VoAs you want in a week, but you'll just be eligible for loot once per lockout.
Instead of having on each player having a list of raid ids (where each raid id references a bit mask and instance id), each player has a mapping of instance ids to bit masks.
The actual associated instance of the instance doesn't really change.
Edit: I've mentioned before though, you do need to handle continuing an existing instance, but I think that'd be best handled by using the raid leader's bitmask as an indicator of which bosses to not spawn.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
It sounds like a good idea, but it also sounds like something that Blizzard would have to spend a lot of money on to change every server to operate that way. And even if it was a pretty low cost, it would be seen as an unnecessary change since the way IDs work now works fine. Sure, there are occasional annoyances, but the system does what it's meant to do.
I definitely stick it out for the entire run if people want to. Triumph emblems are still useful to everyone, no matter what they say, since you can buy gems with them. If you're too lazy to burn four minutes to get the two off Arch on your way back to Kora, then I dunno what to say to you.
I can kinda see skipping Emalon since it requires coordination from more than two people at a time, but... ehhh. He's easy, too.
It sounds like a good idea, but it also sounds like something that Blizzard would have to spend a lot of money on to change every server to operate that way. And even if it was a pretty low cost, it would be seen as an unnecessary change since the way IDs work now works fine. Sure, there are occasional annoyances, but the system does what it's meant to do.
It's not too complicated, and I think it'll be more important with the 10/25 shared lockout. And it does solve several complaints we've seen.
On the plus side, they're doing shorter (but more) raid instances in Cataclysm, so at least being able to resume an instance will be less important.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
If they do a rehash of the Vault of Aids style raid, I hope there's a separate instance for each boss come Cataclysm. I hate how the current setup encourages people to bail after the guy they want to kill goes down.
I'm really warming to that idea someone mentioned earlier: you don't get saved to a raid/dungeon, you get saved per boss.
That way you can do however many VoAs you want in a week, but you'll just be eligible for loot once per lockout.
That would be a whole lot of IDs to track.
Nah. The number gets saved to the character's info regardless, so the space is already being used on the character sheet. I'm not sure how many IDs that'd go through.
Each player that enters the instance will get their own ID, rather than a whole raid group getting the ID. Then, after they kill a boss, their ID is marked with a (success). There'll be a need to modify it to generate an ID per character rather than per "raid" but this is pretty trivial to do, really.
The only issue with a system like this is everytime you go in, all the bosses will be back. The way around that would be if more than 75% of the group share the ID, remove the bosses, or, if more than 75% of the group has cleared up to X boss, remove up to X boss in the instance. The first one is a must, the 2nd one just seems clumsy and I'm not sure a way around it.
We could take that idea a bit further, but their system already has 99% of the pieces in place, it's just a matter of changing the logic a bit behind the scenes on the server.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I definitely stick it out for the entire run if people want to. Triumph emblems are still useful to everyone, no matter what they say, since you can buy gems with them. If you're too lazy to burn four minutes to get the two off Arch on your way back to Kora, then I dunno what to say to you.
I can kinda see skipping Emalon since it requires coordination from more than two people at a time, but... ehhh. He's easy, too.
I have 20k+ gold without even trying, so I don't give a shit about 1/10th of a red/blue/yellow epic gem. And I don't need triumph gear at all on my characters. It doesn't make somebody lazy to prefer hearthing to Dal and logging out or doing what they want over helping people they don't even know get t9.
That being said, I will never be the first one to drop after frostlips. I actually do stay to kill the fire guy unless other people drop first. I'm already there, so I don't mind using 5 more minutes to help people who could still get a benefit out of the t9, but I don't judge other people if they choose to drop after the t10 guy.
I definitely stick it out for the entire run if people want to. Triumph emblems are still useful to everyone, no matter what they say, since you can buy gems with them. If you're too lazy to burn four minutes to get the two off Arch on your way back to Kora, then I dunno what to say to you.
I can kinda see skipping Emalon since it requires coordination from more than two people at a time, but... ehhh. He's easy, too.
I have 20k+ gold without even trying, so I don't give a shit about 1/10th of a red/blue/yellow epic gem. And I don't need triumph gear at all on my characters. It doesn't make somebody lazy to prefer hearthing to Dal and logging out or doing what they want over helping people they don't even know get t9.
That being said, I will never be the first one to drop after frostlips. I actually do stay to kill the fire guy unless other people drop first. I'm already there, so I don't mind using 5 more minutes to help people who could still get a benefit out of the t9, but I don't judge other people if they choose to drop after the t10 guy.
So the way I'm reading your, and several other peoples responses to this, is that as long as there is one person who is willing to just drop without a word after Toravon, all the other people who don't need anything from Koralon are justified to drop too right afterwards because, hey, they weren't the first.
I would love if raidID's went away, and became BossID's. Whoever is Raid Leader when the first person enters the instance, that persons BossID get used to spawn trash/bosses.
If you kill a boss you already killed this reset, you simply get no badges, no loot, no bossrep, no achievements.
I would love if raidID's went away, and became BossID's. Whoever is Raid Leader when the first person enters the instance, that persons BossID get used to spawn trash/bosses.
If you kill a boss you already killed this reset, you simply get no badges, no loot, no bossrep, no achievements.
This could work too.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Also: I'm not going to read back and check or anything, but I hope none of the people who feel perfectly fine with bailing right after Toravon aren't any of the people who have bitched about tanks dropping out of Pit of Saron right after their shield didn't drop, cause it's the same exact nonsense.
If they do a rehash of the Vault of Aids style raid, I hope there's a separate instance for each boss come Cataclysm. I hate how the current setup encourages people to bail after the guy they want to kill goes down.
I'm really warming to that idea someone mentioned earlier: you don't get saved to a raid/dungeon, you get saved per boss.
That way you can do however many VoAs you want in a week, but you'll just be eligible for loot once per lockout.
That would be a whole lot of IDs to track.
Nah. The number gets saved to the character's info regardless, so the space is already being used on the character sheet. I'm not sure how many IDs that'd go through.
Each player that enters the instance will get their own ID, rather than a whole raid group getting the ID. Then, after they kill a boss, their ID is marked with a (success). There'll be a need to modify it to generate an ID per character rather than per "raid" but this is pretty trivial to do, really.
The only issue with a system like this is everytime you go in, all the bosses will be back. The way around that would be if more than 75% of the group share the ID, remove the bosses, or, if more than 75% of the group has cleared up to X boss, remove up to X boss in the instance. The first one is a must, the 2nd one just seems clumsy and I'm not sure a way around it.
We could take that idea a bit further, but their system already has 99% of the pieces in place, it's just a matter of changing the logic a bit behind the scenes on the server.
That's the rub though. That ends up being a ton of ID's to track and log. Let's have a go at analogy time and hope I don't bugger it up.
Imagine a hotel. And one one floor of this hotel is the ICC floor. When a raid wants to raid the place, they basically rent out a room on the floor and do their own personal ICC. And for the rest of the week, they can only ever enter that specific room. If a person leaves, they're still locked to using that room, likewise if somebody decides to join in.
Now then, with Echo's plan to save people per boss, you have to track whether Player A killed Boss X but not Boss Y, and if Player B killed Boss Y but not Boss X. Rather than simply track the raid ID like it is now. Every person has to have their own room basically. So you're turning that 1 room per raid into 10 or 25 rooms.
Now instead of a hotel, it's a server. And that server has to track and log all that data. There may be hundreds of raids saved at any one time. Now you're increasing that amount essentially to the active population of a server, depending on just how many people actually raid. And I don't think Blizzard has the servers or memory to track that much data.
...I hope that made sense to somebody. But basically, it's likely FAR easier for them to track whole raid instances, rather than specific instance states for 10 million+ players.
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
I think it'd make more sense to have a bit for each boss for each character that just gets flipped if they've downed that boss or not that week, and have the instance makeup be based on the raid leader's lockouts.
That's not really a huge amount of info to track. If you've downed the boss, you can fight him again, but get no loot from him until next week.
99% of the time in a 10 man, at least 1 will drop right after Toravon is killed and doesn't need to stay because nothing he needs has dropped or just came for the badges. If its a tank, well that could mean the group as it depends on if everyone's comfy with a 1 tank situation which most pugs i've been in, deem it impossible or unhealable. You can 1 tank 2 heal it, but depends on the group. And that causes a break up.
In 25 you can lose like 5 to 7 people and still do it, plus i see more people willing to stick around with Koralon on 25 than 10.
***Also in regards to raid lockouts.. why don't they just make it that you can always join someone else raid ID, but you will always join the Raid id that's furthest progressed. Doesn't LOTR use a system like that or something(i think i read that).
This is where sufficient planning would play a big part of that. Logging is one thing, however that gets stored is no big deal, and likely, can probably be purged in double time to keep up with it.
As for storing which bosses a playerID has killed, a 32bit unsigned integer with bit flags should be enough.
Edit: Samphis is onto the right idea.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I definitely stick it out for the entire run if people want to. Triumph emblems are still useful to everyone, no matter what they say, since you can buy gems with them. If you're too lazy to burn four minutes to get the two off Arch on your way back to Kora, then I dunno what to say to you.
I can kinda see skipping Emalon since it requires coordination from more than two people at a time, but... ehhh. He's easy, too.
I have 20k+ gold without even trying, so I don't give a shit about 1/10th of a red/blue/yellow epic gem. And I don't need triumph gear at all on my characters. It doesn't make somebody lazy to prefer hearthing to Dal and logging out or doing what they want over helping people they don't even know get t9.
That being said, I will never be the first one to drop after frostlips. I actually do stay to kill the fire guy unless other people drop first. I'm already there, so I don't mind using 5 more minutes to help people who could still get a benefit out of the t9, but I don't judge other people if they choose to drop after the t10 guy.
So the way I'm reading your, and several other peoples responses to this, is that as long as there is one person who is willing to just drop without a word after Toravon, all the other people who don't need anything from Koralon are justified to drop too right afterwards because, hey, they weren't the first.
It's not because I'm not the first, it's because if 2 or 3 people drop from a 10 man, or 8 or 10 drop from a 25 man, I'm sure as shit not going to sit there in the group while the person tries to find replacements to come into VoA with the t10 boss already down, because it's not going to happen. And while the bosses are easy to do with less than a full group, most times the people who left after the t10 boss are the ones who were actually denting the bosses health bar, and the ones who want to do the t9 boss don't have gear and do considerably less.
What we're saying is more like "I'll stay an extra 5 minutes and help people who actually need stuff kill the t9 boss, but if the raid group starts to fall apart, I'm bailing too." This is mostly irrelevant for me because I generally do VoA with my guildies and some of us take alts so we do the t9 boss pretty much every time.
Also: I'm not going to read back and check or anything, but I hope none of the people who feel perfectly fine with bailing right after Toravon aren't any of the people who have bitched about tanks dropping out of Pit of Saron right after their shield didn't drop, cause it's the same exact nonsense.
That's also not exactly the same thing. Do you clear the t8 and t7 bosses in VoA every time you go in there? No, because the only reason most people go into VoA is to try to get freebie t10. The expectation when you go into a 5 man is that you're going to clear it. The expectation when you go to VoA is that it's t10 boss then see what everybody else does.
Posts
If the raid leader wants to kill the t9 boss first they can try to get people to do it, but even then there's no guarantee. I was in a VoA 25 with a shitty Warlock leader a few weeks back who made sure he was the only lock in the raid. He was actually trying to lead the raid to the t8 boss, rofl. All 24 of us besides him went straight for the ice guy so he had no choice but to follow. Then he kept putting up raid warnings about how we were going straight for the flame guy after the frost guy. As soon as loot was done from the frost guy most of us just left the group.
SniperGuyGaming on PSN / SniperGuy710 on Xbone Live
Better believe I'll be the 2nd though, in a heartbeat.
SW:Tor - Tao - Kryatt Dragon Server
The prevailing wisdom is that the ice giant is hardest, so if your group is fail at least you won't be saved to it.
But yeah, people always leave right after the ice giant and it's enough people generally that you can't do the rest.
If they'd put each boss in his own instance and had them drop class tokens instead of putting seventy individual armor pieces on a single loot table, the whole thing would be a lot less frustrating and actually serve the purpose for which it was intended.
I'm really warming to that idea someone mentioned earlier: you don't get saved to a raid/dungeon, you get saved per boss.
That way you can do however many VoAs you want in a week, but you'll just be eligible for loot once per lockout.
That would be a whole lot of IDs to track.
Instead of having on each player having a list of raid ids (where each raid id references a bit mask and instance id), each player has a mapping of instance ids to bit masks.
The actual associated instance of the instance doesn't really change.
Edit: I've mentioned before though, you do need to handle continuing an existing instance, but I think that'd be best handled by using the raid leader's bitmask as an indicator of which bosses to not spawn.
I can kinda see skipping Emalon since it requires coordination from more than two people at a time, but... ehhh. He's easy, too.
I feel like I have better things to do when I am not playing WoW.
We ended up 15-manning fire dude.
hi5
The last time I did VoA 25 I was the only healer left in the group after Toravon and not realizing this, we had a near-wipe on trash.
You can guess how many people dropped after that.
It's not too complicated, and I think it'll be more important with the 10/25 shared lockout. And it does solve several complaints we've seen.
On the plus side, they're doing shorter (but more) raid instances in Cataclysm, so at least being able to resume an instance will be less important.
Nah. The number gets saved to the character's info regardless, so the space is already being used on the character sheet. I'm not sure how many IDs that'd go through.
Each player that enters the instance will get their own ID, rather than a whole raid group getting the ID. Then, after they kill a boss, their ID is marked with a (success). There'll be a need to modify it to generate an ID per character rather than per "raid" but this is pretty trivial to do, really.
The only issue with a system like this is everytime you go in, all the bosses will be back. The way around that would be if more than 75% of the group share the ID, remove the bosses, or, if more than 75% of the group has cleared up to X boss, remove up to X boss in the instance. The first one is a must, the 2nd one just seems clumsy and I'm not sure a way around it.
We could take that idea a bit further, but their system already has 99% of the pieces in place, it's just a matter of changing the logic a bit behind the scenes on the server.
I'd get it..
If I owned a cel phone.
SW:Tor - Tao - Kryatt Dragon Server
There's the web version too.
I don't really have my mind made up, and it's definitely something not everyone would be able to put to any use.
I have 20k+ gold without even trying, so I don't give a shit about 1/10th of a red/blue/yellow epic gem. And I don't need triumph gear at all on my characters. It doesn't make somebody lazy to prefer hearthing to Dal and logging out or doing what they want over helping people they don't even know get t9.
That being said, I will never be the first one to drop after frostlips. I actually do stay to kill the fire guy unless other people drop first. I'm already there, so I don't mind using 5 more minutes to help people who could still get a benefit out of the t9, but I don't judge other people if they choose to drop after the t10 guy.
Still not much use as it's blocked at work.
So the only time I'd use it is from home, where I'd just log in anyway
However if I ever changed jobs and had access I'd get it in a heartbeat.
SW:Tor - Tao - Kryatt Dragon Server
So the way I'm reading your, and several other peoples responses to this, is that as long as there is one person who is willing to just drop without a word after Toravon, all the other people who don't need anything from Koralon are justified to drop too right afterwards because, hey, they weren't the first.
If you kill a boss you already killed this reset, you simply get no badges, no loot, no bossrep, no achievements.
This could work too.
That's the rub though. That ends up being a ton of ID's to track and log. Let's have a go at analogy time and hope I don't bugger it up.
Imagine a hotel. And one one floor of this hotel is the ICC floor. When a raid wants to raid the place, they basically rent out a room on the floor and do their own personal ICC. And for the rest of the week, they can only ever enter that specific room. If a person leaves, they're still locked to using that room, likewise if somebody decides to join in.
Now then, with Echo's plan to save people per boss, you have to track whether Player A killed Boss X but not Boss Y, and if Player B killed Boss Y but not Boss X. Rather than simply track the raid ID like it is now. Every person has to have their own room basically. So you're turning that 1 room per raid into 10 or 25 rooms.
Now instead of a hotel, it's a server. And that server has to track and log all that data. There may be hundreds of raids saved at any one time. Now you're increasing that amount essentially to the active population of a server, depending on just how many people actually raid. And I don't think Blizzard has the servers or memory to track that much data.
...I hope that made sense to somebody. But basically, it's likely FAR easier for them to track whole raid instances, rather than specific instance states for 10 million+ players.
That's not really a huge amount of info to track. If you've downed the boss, you can fight him again, but get no loot from him until next week.
In 25 you can lose like 5 to 7 people and still do it, plus i see more people willing to stick around with Koralon on 25 than 10.
***Also in regards to raid lockouts.. why don't they just make it that you can always join someone else raid ID, but you will always join the Raid id that's furthest progressed. Doesn't LOTR use a system like that or something(i think i read that).
Anyway, like Samphis just said, they'll probably just flip bits. I'm fairly certain raids already are mostly just referencing a bitmask.
As for storing which bosses a playerID has killed, a 32bit unsigned integer with bit flags should be enough.
Edit: Samphis is onto the right idea.
It's not because I'm not the first, it's because if 2 or 3 people drop from a 10 man, or 8 or 10 drop from a 25 man, I'm sure as shit not going to sit there in the group while the person tries to find replacements to come into VoA with the t10 boss already down, because it's not going to happen. And while the bosses are easy to do with less than a full group, most times the people who left after the t10 boss are the ones who were actually denting the bosses health bar, and the ones who want to do the t9 boss don't have gear and do considerably less.
What we're saying is more like "I'll stay an extra 5 minutes and help people who actually need stuff kill the t9 boss, but if the raid group starts to fall apart, I'm bailing too." This is mostly irrelevant for me because I generally do VoA with my guildies and some of us take alts so we do the t9 boss pretty much every time.
That's also not exactly the same thing. Do you clear the t8 and t7 bosses in VoA every time you go in there? No, because the only reason most people go into VoA is to try to get freebie t10. The expectation when you go into a 5 man is that you're going to clear it. The expectation when you go to VoA is that it's t10 boss then see what everybody else does.
Also, you mean HoR not PoS.