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Consumer rights/protection, false advertisement, and trivialization of issues.

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Posts

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    If you issue a chargeback on a company without their agreement, they're 100% justified in not doing business with you ever again.

    There's a difference between not selling me more shit in the future, and inactivating the shit I have now that is not connected to the dispute in question.

    Now, I'm sure your response will be some bullshit about EULAs and Terms and Conditions and etc etc.

    But that's why I'm not going to get into that situation in the first place. Because if I'm buying something, I expect to fucking buy it not rent it at the whims of the seller.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Clipse wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    If you issue a chargeback on a company without their agreement, they're 100% justified in not doing business with you ever again. It doesn't matter whether you think you think the feature list was wrong or the game wasn't that good or whatever, there's just no reason for retailers to deal with someone who buys something and then takes the money back. In the case of Steam, except their to ban your account. In the case of retailers, expect them to get a collections company involved. Rightly so, since you literally took their product and didn't pay for it.

    I'm not sure you understand the point of a chargeback. If the merchant agrees to give you a refund, there is no reason to call your credit card company and ask for a chargeback. When it comes to credit cards, chargebacks exist pretty much specifically for disputes that the customer and vendor can't resolve themselves. Yes, Valve is within their rights (morally and legally) to refuse to do business with you in the future if you issue a chargeback on them whether the chargeback is justified or not. They are not doing that, though. They are stealing all of the other games you've purchased, games which you have purchased in full.

    Oh, but it's not stealing. It's just enforcing the terms of use.

    See, "making unauthorized digital copies without the consent of the rightsholder," that's "stealing." But "enforcing the terms of use by discontinuing access to fully-paid-for content?" That's not. Right?

    EDIT: The funny part is that of any store that should have no real problem with chargebacks (and returns), it's Valve. They can see whether you played the whole game, and if you didn't then it's not like Wal-Mart where now they have to try to sell an open-box item. They can just remove the game in question from your account. No big deal.

    mcdermott on
  • ClipseClipse Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Clipse wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    If you issue a chargeback on a company without their agreement, they're 100% justified in not doing business with you ever again. It doesn't matter whether you think you think the feature list was wrong or the game wasn't that good or whatever, there's just no reason for retailers to deal with someone who buys something and then takes the money back. In the case of Steam, except their to ban your account. In the case of retailers, expect them to get a collections company involved. Rightly so, since you literally took their product and didn't pay for it.

    I'm not sure you understand the point of a chargeback. If the merchant agrees to give you a refund, there is no reason to call your credit card company and ask for a chargeback. When it comes to credit cards, chargebacks exist pretty much specifically for disputes that the customer and vendor can't resolve themselves. Yes, Valve is within their rights (morally and legally) to refuse to do business with you in the future if you issue a chargeback on them whether the chargeback is justified or not. They are not doing that, though. They are stealing all of the other games you've purchased, games which you have purchased in full.

    Oh, but it's not stealing. It's just enforcing the terms of use.

    See, "making unauthorized digital copies without the consent of the rightsholder," that's "stealing." But "enforcing the terms of use by discontinuing access to fully-paid-for content?" That's not. Right?

    Of course! I forgot that pesky "It's OK if a corporation does it" clause that most laws seem to have. Silly me :P

    Clipse on
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The ability to return games would have exactly 0% impact on the availability of torrents. Many games are pirated even before release.

    enc0re on
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited May 2010
    enc0re wrote: »
    The ability to return games would have exactly 0% impact on the availability of torrents. Many games are pirated even before release.

    What about all those people who just want to buy a game, rip it, then return it? Hun??

    (I'm kidding! What a waste of effort!)

    Loklar on
  • TincheTinche No dog food for Victor tonight. Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Tangentially, I only have a few games on Steam, so I haven't looked into it, but is there a way for me to give away (or sell) any of the games I own on Steam? Or are they permanently linked to my account?

    Is it viable to create a separate Steam account for every blockbuster game I get on it, and sell the account once I'm done with it, like I would do with a physical copy?

    Tinche on
    We're marooned on a small island, in an endless sea,
    Confined to a tiny spit of sand, unable to escape,
    But tonight, it's heavy stuff.
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Tinche wrote: »
    Tangentially, I only have a few games on Steam, so I haven't looked into it, but is there a way for me to give away (or sell) any of the games I own on Steam? Or are they permanently linked to my account?

    Is it viable to create a separate Steam account for every blockbuster game I get on it, and sell the account once I'm done with it, like I would do with a physical copy?

    To the first: No, you cannot gift them or sell them.

    To the second: Maybe, but probably not worth the effort. If you tried to list it on Craigslist or eBay, and they found you, they'd probably disable the account.


    One idea somebody had, though, is to create a separate account for all game purchases, and use that account to buy them all for your "real" account as gifts. That way, theoretically, if you ran into some kind of accidental chargeback situation your "real" account would be safe.

    mcdermott on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Things change in game development. Features get cut, things that were working stop working, and tough choices have to be made about what stays and what goes. It's perfectly reasonable to be unhappy, but it's silly to assume malice on 2K's part in a case like this. If it's a big issue for you, the best thing you can do is not buy future products the company makes. The last two points of this article seem to apply here.

    Okay, let's say I go to buy a new vacuum cleaner today. I go to http://hoover.com and look up the model I want to buy. It's a new model and it just came out today. They posted a FAQ on that model about a week ago:
    Hoover.com Q&A:

    Q: Does this new wet/dry vac suck up soda?
    A: Yes! It absolutely picks up soda NO PROBLEM!

    Then I buy the fucking thing and guess what - it doesn't pick up soda.

    You're going to tell me that I should just roll over and take it because, hey, that kind of shit happens?

    Drez on
  • nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Things change in game development. Features get cut, things that were working stop working, and tough choices have to be made about what stays and what goes. It's perfectly reasonable to be unhappy, but it's silly to assume malice on 2K's part in a case like this. If it's a big issue for you, the best thing you can do is not buy future products the company makes. The last two points of this article seem to apply here.

    Okay, let's say I go to buy a new vacuum cleaner today. I go to http://hoover.com and look up the model I want to buy. It's a new model and it just came out today. They posted a FAQ on that model about a week ago:
    Hoover.com Q&A:

    Q: Does this new wet/dry vac suck up soda?
    A: Yes! It absolutely picks up soda NO PROBLEM!

    Then I buy the fucking thing and guess what - it doesn't pick up soda.

    You're going to tell me that I should just roll over and take it because, hey, that kind of shit happens?

    But you can't copy a vacuum cleaner to your hard drive! And if you could, Hoover would be entirely within its rights to make it impossible to return in order to defend its valuable intellectual property.

    nescientist on
    Carl Sagan wrote:
    The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.
  • TincheTinche No dog food for Victor tonight. Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Tinche wrote: »
    Tangentially, I only have a few games on Steam, so I haven't looked into it, but is there a way for me to give away (or sell) any of the games I own on Steam? Or are they permanently linked to my account?

    Is it viable to create a separate Steam account for every blockbuster game I get on it, and sell the account once I'm done with it, like I would do with a physical copy?

    To the first: No, you cannot gift them or sell them.

    To the second: Maybe, but probably not worth the effort. If you tried to list it on Craigslist or eBay, and they found you, they'd probably disable the account.


    One idea somebody had, though, is to create a separate account for all game purchases, and use that account to buy them all for your "real" account as gifts. That way, theoretically, if you ran into some kind of accidental chargeback situation your "real" account would be safe.

    Interesting. Thanks for the response.

    Tinche on
    We're marooned on a small island, in an endless sea,
    Confined to a tiny spit of sand, unable to escape,
    But tonight, it's heavy stuff.
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    If you issue a chargeback on a company without their agreement, they're 100% justified in not doing business with you ever again. It doesn't matter whether you think you think the feature list was wrong or the game wasn't that good or whatever, there's just no reason for retailers to deal with someone who buys something and then takes the money back. In the case of Steam, except their to ban your account. In the case of retailers, expect them to get a collections company involved. Rightly so, since you literally took their product and didn't pay for it.

    While I agree with you regarding "not doing business with you ever again," I fail to see how Valve is justified in removing access to games you already own. Those are separate, completed transactions you had with the company. I mean if I buy three vacuum cleaners from Hoover and do a chargeback on the third one, they don't have a right to come into my home and take the other two. The same is true of both digital media and a physical object: A transaction is a transaction.
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    I'd love to be able to return my PC games, but at the same time, the platform is already incredibly unattractive to developers. Making piracy even easier would have some serious ramifications in terms of what gets developed for/ported to PC. I know the prevailing wisdom on this forum is that piracy doesn't exist/doesn't matter, but people who make business decisions in this industry simply know better than that.

    So you are implying that it is okay to suspend even basic consumer rights because if we don't let companies rake us over a barrel, the industry will die out? Lol.

    Drez on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Things change in game development. Features get cut, things that were working stop working, and tough choices have to be made about what stays and what goes. It's perfectly reasonable to be unhappy, but it's silly to assume malice on 2K's part in a case like this. If it's a big issue for you, the best thing you can do is not buy future products the company makes. The last two points of this article seem to apply here.

    Okay, let's say I go to buy a new vacuum cleaner today. I go to http://hoover.com and look up the model I want to buy. It's a new model and it just came out today. They posted a FAQ on that model about a week ago:
    Hoover.com Q&A:

    Q: Does this new wet/dry vac suck up soda?
    A: Yes! It absolutely picks up soda NO PROBLEM!

    Then I buy the fucking thing and guess what - it doesn't pick up soda.

    You're going to tell me that I should just roll over and take it because, hey, that kind of shit happens?

    But you can't copy a vacuum cleaner to your hard drive! And if you could, Hoover would be entirely within its rights to make it impossible to return in order to defend its valuable intellectual property.

    It's hard to tell from your tone: Are you being sarcastic, or is that really how you feel?

    Drez on
  • nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    It's hard to tell from your tone: Are you being sarcastic, or is that really how you feel?

    This is how I feel:

    tumblr_kpcvvy3eqK1qz4a62o1_500.jpg

    nescientist on
    Carl Sagan wrote:
    The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    It's hard to tell from your tone: Are you being sarcastic, or is that really how you feel?

    This is how I feel:

    tumblr_kpcvvy3eqK1qz4a62o1_500.jpg

    hahahahahahahah

    edit: and on a slight tangent, that reminds me that The IT Crowd season 4 should be coming out soon. I think/hope.

    Drez on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    It's hard to tell from your tone: Are you being sarcastic, or is that really how you feel?

    This is how I feel:
    tumblr_kpcvvy3eqK1qz4a62o1_500.jpg

    This reminds me of the McDonald's posters they had on my campus:

    "Until you can illegally download food...there's the Dollar Menu!"

    mcdermott on
  • LawndartLawndart Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Explain to me again why I shouldn't be able to return a game to Steam within a 48-hour or 96-hour window, provided I haven't played said game for more than X hours? I mean, other than that the publishers would never allow Steam to issue such a refund because they're used to being able to sell garbage and call all sales final.

    Such a system would be incredibly easy to abuse and would provide a marginal at best benefit to most consumers. It would only really benefit scammers, uninformed consumers, and the types of irrational customers that are the bane of every retailer ever.

    Edit: I'm not saying that Steam shouldn't have a better method of dealing with consumers who purchase actually defective software, just that in essence offering every single game as a free 96-hour trial is a really bad suggestion.

    Lawndart on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lawndart wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Explain to me again why I shouldn't be able to return a game to Steam within a 48-hour or 96-hour window, provided I haven't played said game for more than X hours? I mean, other than that the publishers would never allow Steam to issue such a refund because they're used to being able to sell garbage and call all sales final.

    Such a system would be incredibly easy to abuse and would provide a marginal at best benefit to most consumers. It would only really benefit scammers, uninformed consumers, and the types of irrational customers that are the bane of every retailer ever.

    If by "uninformed consumers" you mean "consumers who were misinformed by the publishers," sure.

    EDIT: Time limited trial, remember. I'm not saying you should be able to pour 18 hours into it over two days then return it. But again, on Steam at least, there's at least some way to tell how much the customer even played it before realizing it was fucked.

    mcdermott on
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lawndart wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Explain to me again why I shouldn't be able to return a game to Steam within a 48-hour or 96-hour window, provided I haven't played said game for more than X hours? I mean, other than that the publishers would never allow Steam to issue such a refund because they're used to being able to sell garbage and call all sales final.

    Such a system would be incredibly easy to abuse and would provide a marginal at best benefit to most consumers. It would only really benefit scammers, uninformed consumers, and the types of irrational customers that are the bane of every retailer ever.

    Edit: I'm not saying that Steam shouldn't have a better method of dealing with consumers who purchase actually defective software, just that in essence offering every single game as a free 96-hour trial is a really bad suggestion.

    Only let people do it once a month per account, or once per X games bought

    override367 on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lawndart wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Explain to me again why I shouldn't be able to return a game to Steam within a 48-hour or 96-hour window, provided I haven't played said game for more than X hours? I mean, other than that the publishers would never allow Steam to issue such a refund because they're used to being able to sell garbage and call all sales final.

    Such a system would be incredibly easy to abuse and would provide a marginal at best benefit to most consumers. It would only really benefit scammers, uninformed consumers, and the types of irrational customers that are the bane of every retailer ever.

    Edit: I'm not saying that Steam shouldn't have a better method of dealing with consumers who purchase actually defective software, just that in essence offering every single game as a free 96-hour trial is a really bad suggestion.

    Only let people do it once a month per account, or once per X games bought

    Gee, that was tough.

    mcdermott on
  • Squidget0Squidget0 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    While I agree with you regarding "not doing business with you ever again," I fail to see how Valve is justified in removing access to games you already own.

    Because they can and they're not beholden to people who steal shit from them. If someone charges back a game they bought on Steam, they just stole money from Valve and the developer. People who steal shouldn't be surprised when the punishment is greater than the value of whatever they stole - that's how things usually work.

    As for free trials of every game - come on, guys. There's no bill of consumer rights anywhere that says you should get to spend several days owning every product before you pay for it. That's pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking, even before you get into the myriad problems it causes.

    Squidget0 on
    Arch wrote: »
    the lynch mob is a feature, not a bug in the democratic system
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited May 2010
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    While I agree with you regarding "not doing business with you ever again," I fail to see how Valve is justified in removing access to games you already own.

    Because they can and they're not beholden to people who steal shit from them. If someone charges back a game they bought on Steam, they just stole money from Valve and the developer. People who steal shouldn't be surprised when the punishment is greater than the value of whatever they stole - that's how things usually work.

    As for free trials of every game - come on, guys. There's no bill of consumer rights anywhere that says you should get to spend several days owning every product before you pay for it. That's pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking, even before you get into the myriad problems it causes.

    The idea comes from the "people who buy stuff are more important than people who make stuff," school of thought.

    Loklar on
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    While I agree with you regarding "not doing business with you ever again," I fail to see how Valve is justified in removing access to games you already own.

    Because they can and they're not beholden to people who steal shit from them. If someone charges back a game they bought on Steam, they just stole money from Valve and the developer. People who steal shouldn't be surprised when the punishment is greater than the value of whatever they stole - that's how things usually work.

    As for free trials of every game - come on, guys. There's no bill of consumer rights anywhere that says you should get to spend several days owning every product before you pay for it. That's pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking, even before you get into the myriad problems it causes.

    So you agree that Wal-mart would be justified in sending goons to your house to take back anything you've ever bought from them if you do a chargeback, rather than... you know just attempting to get what you owe them + a small fee?

    Steam's policy is retarded in this regard, since they can just take away whatever you charged back. Anything else is just being dicks on their part, they are literally immune to this form of theft.

    override367 on
  • nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    There's no bill of consumer rights anywhere that says you should get to spend several days owning every product before you pay for it.

    Here's what California has to say on that subject, silly goose.
    Unless an item is sold "as is," all new products (except clothing and consumables) that are bought primarily for personal, family, or household use have a warranty implied by law.

    This implied warranty means that the product must be fit for the ordinary purposes for which the product is used. The warranty lasts for at least 60 days, or for as long as any written warranty that accompanies the item (up to one year).

    If an item sold with a written warranty is defective, you are entitled to have it repaired to conform to the warranty, and, if the item cannot be repaired, you are entitled to have it replaced or to receive a refund of the purchase price (excludes defects due to abuse).

    If there is a written warranty and the defective item is too big to return, the company must either pay shipping costs or come to your home to provide service.
    If you can show that you bought something because of a false or misleading advertisement, you have a strong case for a refund instead of an exchange. If your consent was obtained by fraud, the law allows you to rescind (cancel) the purchase if you act promptly and in good faith.

    EDIT: revised for compatibility with The Glorious Edict.

    nescientist on
    Carl Sagan wrote:
    The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    While I agree with you regarding "not doing business with you ever again," I fail to see how Valve is justified in removing access to games you already own.

    Because they can and they're not beholden to people who steal shit from them.

    Once a transaction is complete, neither party is beholden to the other.

    And "because they can" is not a valid justification. Having power doesn't justify using power. Try again.
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    If someone charges back a game they bought on Steam, they just stole money from Valve and the developer. People who steal shouldn't be surprised when the punishment is greater than the value of whatever they stole - that's how things usually work.

    You mean people should expect that theft - and whether or not a chargeback actually constitutes "theft" is up for debate - should be responded to WITH theft? Because regardless of what I did, denying access to a game I already and legitimately paid for is as much theft as a chargeback is.
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    As for free trials of every game - come on, guys. There's no bill of consumer rights anywhere that says you should get to spend several days owning every product before you pay for it. That's pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking, even before you get into the myriad problems it causes.

    Well duh. There is no bill of consumer rights that suggests that specific fix.

    But maybe there should be. There absolutely should be stronger consumer protection. That's the point of this discussion.

    Drez on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    While I agree with you regarding "not doing business with you ever again," I fail to see how Valve is justified in removing access to games you already own.

    Because they can and they're not beholden to people who steal shit from them. If someone charges back a game they bought on Steam, they just stole money from Valve and the developer. People who steal shouldn't be surprised when the punishment is greater than the value of whatever they stole - that's how things usually work.

    As for free trials of every game - come on, guys. There's no bill of consumer rights anywhere that says you should get to spend several days owning every product before you pay for it. That's pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking, even before you get into the myriad problems it causes.

    So you agree that Wal-mart would be justified in sending goons to your house to take back anything you've ever bought from them if you do a chargeback, rather than... you know just attempting to get what you owe them + a small fee?

    Steam's policy is retarded in this regard, since they can just take away whatever you charged back. Anything else is just being dicks on their part, they are literally immune to this form of theft.

    Fortunately, as we can see here, they'll always have apologists to defend them.

    mcdermott on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    While I agree with you regarding "not doing business with you ever again," I fail to see how Valve is justified in removing access to games you already own.

    Because they can and they're not beholden to people who steal shit from them. If someone charges back a game they bought on Steam, they just stole money from Valve and the developer. People who steal shouldn't be surprised when the punishment is greater than the value of whatever they stole - that's how things usually work.

    As for free trials of every game - come on, guys. There's no bill of consumer rights anywhere that says you should get to spend several days owning every product before you pay for it. That's pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking, even before you get into the myriad problems it causes.

    The idea comes from the "people who buy stuff are more important than people who make stuff," school of thought.

    Not at all. The idea also comes from "people who buy stuff have rights too" school of thought.

    As it is right now, BioShock 2 was falsely advertised to me and I had no way of figuring that out until it was too late to return it. I now have no recourse as a consumer. I have an absolute, flat zero consumer rights at this point.

    Drez on
  • nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Fortunately, as we can see here, they'll always have apologists to defend them.

    I prefer to imagine that Squidget and posters like him are being paid for their services, even though that probably isn't the case. For some reason, I find that notion less disturbing than the alternative.

    nescientist on
    Carl Sagan wrote:
    The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    You mean people should expect that theft - and whether or not a chargeback actually constitutes "theft" is up for debate - should be responded to WITH theft? Because regardless of what I did, denying access to a game I already and legitimately paid for is as much theft as a chargeback is.

    Whether a chargeback is theft isn't up for debate anyway. It's not. If the "item" is returned (and in this case, it easily can be) and the chargeback is for good reason (in this case, features advertised but not delivered), there's no way anybody with half a brain can call that theft.

    Now, from the position of Valve it might be a loss...it's entirely possible that they are still stuck paying the publisher for the game even if they removed it from your account. If that's the case they need to take a long hard look at the contracts they're getting with publishers, and act accordingly. That, or look at what is causing their margins to be so low that they can't afford the occasional chargeback.

    What they need to not do is disable entire accounts containing hundreds of dollars of purchased games.

    I prefer to imagine that Squidget and posters like him are being paid for their services, even though that probably isn't the case. For some reason, I find that notion less disturbing than the alternative.

    You and me both man. The alternative honestly makes me want to vomit.

    mcdermott on
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited May 2010
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    There's no bill of consumer rights anywhere that says you should get to spend several days owning every product before you pay for it.

    Here's what California has to say on that subject, dumbass.
    Unless an item is sold "as is," all new products (except clothing and consumables) that are bought primarily for personal, family, or household use have a warranty implied by law.

    This implied warranty means that the product must be fit for the ordinary purposes for which the product is used. The warranty lasts for at least 60 days, or for as long as any written warranty that accompanies the item (up to one year).

    If an item sold with a written warranty is defective, you are entitled to have it repaired to conform to the warranty, and, if the item cannot be repaired, you are entitled to have it replaced or to receive a refund of the purchase price (excludes defects due to abuse).

    If there is a written warranty and the defective item is too big to return, the company must either pay shipping costs or come to your home to provide service.
    If you can show that you bought something because of a false or misleading advertisement, you have a strong case for a refund instead of an exchange. If your consent was obtained by fraud, the law allows you to rescind (cancel) the purchase if you act promptly and in good faith.

    Steam doesn't exist in California though. You probably bought it on the internet (probably).

    I see this as an evolution of the RIAA wars. People abused their rights as owners of media, so the next wave is everyone will be a renter of media.

    Edit: If you don't like it, there's bestbuy. They sell the same thing.

    Loklar on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    That I have no rights at this point might be a bit of an exaggeration. If I wanted to, I could sue 2k Games and almost definitely win. I've looked up various definitions of "false advertisement" in the past two days and I have enough evidence - the article in question and various communications between 2k staff and myself/others - to be 100% confident that if it ever actually went to a judge, 2k Games would have the book thrown at them.

    So if I wanted to do so, I could assert my consumer rights through legal channels. But a consumer shouldn't have to go through that hassle. Consumers should have much easier forms of achieving redress.

    Am I going to sue them over vertical stretching in a game that apparently isn't very good anyway? No. If I were a millionaire with oodles of free time, I might be so inclined, but I just don't have that luxury. And I more or less scoff at people who come up with these annoying class action lawsuits against companies. By and large I think they are silly. But here? What other option would I have if I really wanted to assert my consumer rights?

    Drez on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Steam doesn't exist in California though. You probably bought it on the internet (probably).

    I see this as an evolution of the RIAA wars. People abused their rights as owners of media, so the next wave is everyone will be a renter of media.

    Yay?

    Anybody who thinks this is a good thing should be beaten to death with a shovel.

    mcdermott on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Edit: If you don't like it, there's bestbuy. They sell the same thing.

    Not for games activated through Valve, they don't.

    See: all Valve games, MW2, plenty of others.

    mcdermott on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    There's no bill of consumer rights anywhere that says you should get to spend several days owning every product before you pay for it.

    Here's what California has to say on that subject, dumbass.
    Unless an item is sold "as is," all new products (except clothing and consumables) that are bought primarily for personal, family, or household use have a warranty implied by law.

    This implied warranty means that the product must be fit for the ordinary purposes for which the product is used. The warranty lasts for at least 60 days, or for as long as any written warranty that accompanies the item (up to one year).

    If an item sold with a written warranty is defective, you are entitled to have it repaired to conform to the warranty, and, if the item cannot be repaired, you are entitled to have it replaced or to receive a refund of the purchase price (excludes defects due to abuse).

    If there is a written warranty and the defective item is too big to return, the company must either pay shipping costs or come to your home to provide service.
    If you can show that you bought something because of a false or misleading advertisement, you have a strong case for a refund instead of an exchange. If your consent was obtained by fraud, the law allows you to rescind (cancel) the purchase if you act promptly and in good faith.

    Steam doesn't exist in California though. You probably bought it on the internet (probably).

    I see this as an evolution of the RIAA wars. People abused their rights as owners of media, so the next wave is everyone will be a renter of media.

    Edit: If you don't like it, there's bestbuy. They sell the same thing.

    And if you bought it at Best Buy, you still wouldn't be able to get a refund for open software. In the case of BioShock 2, it was impossible to determine the defect until you open it. And before you say "well, you could have waited for people to review it," that (a) doesn't absolve the false advertisement, (b) ignores the fact that 2k Games was pushing pre-orders for day one sales, which makes all of this even more sinister.

    Drez on
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited May 2010
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Steam doesn't exist in California though. You probably bought it on the internet (probably).

    I see this as an evolution of the RIAA wars. People abused their rights as owners of media, so the next wave is everyone will be a renter of media.

    Yay?

    Anybody who thinks this is a good thing should be beaten to death with a shovel.

    They make the games though. For them it's this or make linux databases. I don't blame them for protecting their business, and I don't tell them how to run their business.

    And I don't download their work without their consent.

    Loklar on
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited May 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    There's no bill of consumer rights anywhere that says you should get to spend several days owning every product before you pay for it.

    Here's what California has to say on that subject, dumbass.
    Unless an item is sold "as is," all new products (except clothing and consumables) that are bought primarily for personal, family, or household use have a warranty implied by law.

    This implied warranty means that the product must be fit for the ordinary purposes for which the product is used. The warranty lasts for at least 60 days, or for as long as any written warranty that accompanies the item (up to one year).

    If an item sold with a written warranty is defective, you are entitled to have it repaired to conform to the warranty, and, if the item cannot be repaired, you are entitled to have it replaced or to receive a refund of the purchase price (excludes defects due to abuse).

    If there is a written warranty and the defective item is too big to return, the company must either pay shipping costs or come to your home to provide service.
    If you can show that you bought something because of a false or misleading advertisement, you have a strong case for a refund instead of an exchange. If your consent was obtained by fraud, the law allows you to rescind (cancel) the purchase if you act promptly and in good faith.

    Steam doesn't exist in California though. You probably bought it on the internet (probably).

    I see this as an evolution of the RIAA wars. People abused their rights as owners of media, so the next wave is everyone will be a renter of media.

    Edit: If you don't like it, there's bestbuy. They sell the same thing.

    And if you bought it at Best Buy, you still wouldn't be able to get a refund for open software. In the case of BioShock 2, it was impossible to determine the defect until you open it. And before you say "well, you could have waited for people to review it," that (a) doesn't absolve the false advertisement, (b) ignores the fact that 2k Games was pushing pre-orders for day one sales, which makes all of this even more sinister.

    You have an excellent argument. Get a lawyer.

    Loklar on
  • nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    I see this as an evolution of the RIAA wars. People abused their rights as owners of media, so the next wave is everyone will be a renter of media.

    That's actually very accurate; those protections might not even apply to games purchased from California with CA sales tax and all. Steam is a service, not a product, and none of the games I "own" on that service are actually mine at all.

    Your phrasing as "people abused their rights, so..." is amusing, and very much to the point in this thread. So long as content providers get a free pass because of "teh piracy" our content delivery methods are just going to get weirder and weirder and more and more unpleasant for the consumer, because, I mean, fuck consumers. Most of them are filthy fucking pirates anyway.

    nescientist on
    Carl Sagan wrote:
    The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    There's no bill of consumer rights anywhere that says you should get to spend several days owning every product before you pay for it.

    Here's what California has to say on that subject, dumbass.
    Unless an item is sold "as is," all new products (except clothing and consumables) that are bought primarily for personal, family, or household use have a warranty implied by law.

    This implied warranty means that the product must be fit for the ordinary purposes for which the product is used. The warranty lasts for at least 60 days, or for as long as any written warranty that accompanies the item (up to one year).

    If an item sold with a written warranty is defective, you are entitled to have it repaired to conform to the warranty, and, if the item cannot be repaired, you are entitled to have it replaced or to receive a refund of the purchase price (excludes defects due to abuse).

    If there is a written warranty and the defective item is too big to return, the company must either pay shipping costs or come to your home to provide service.
    If you can show that you bought something because of a false or misleading advertisement, you have a strong case for a refund instead of an exchange. If your consent was obtained by fraud, the law allows you to rescind (cancel) the purchase if you act promptly and in good faith.

    Steam doesn't exist in California though. You probably bought it on the internet (probably).

    I see this as an evolution of the RIAA wars. People abused their rights as owners of media, so the next wave is everyone will be a renter of media.

    Edit: If you don't like it, there's bestbuy. They sell the same thing.

    And if you bought it at Best Buy, you still wouldn't be able to get a refund for open software. In the case of BioShock 2, it was impossible to determine the defect until you open it. And before you say "well, you could have waited for people to review it," that (a) doesn't absolve the false advertisement, (b) ignores the fact that 2k Games was pushing pre-orders for day one sales, which makes all of this even more sinister.

    You have an excellent argument. Get a lawyer.

    Do you have anything to add to this discussion, or did you just wander in here feeling like we needed a waft of your trollish hot air?

    Drez on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Steam doesn't exist in California though. You probably bought it on the internet (probably).

    I see this as an evolution of the RIAA wars. People abused their rights as owners of media, so the next wave is everyone will be a renter of media.

    Yay?

    Anybody who thinks this is a good thing should be beaten to death with a shovel.

    They make the games though. For them it's this or make linux databases. I don't blame them for protecting their business, and I don't tell them how to run their business.

    And I don't download their work without their consent.

    See, and I think we (as the public) do need to tell them how to run their business. Since without our spiffy government they'd have no copyright anyway.

    Well, that and because I think consumer protections in general are kinda spiffy.

    mcdermott on
  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    edited May 2010

    The implied warranty of merchantability does not mean "you get to try it scot-free for a few days before you pay for it and give it back if you don't like it". It means that written warranty or not, products not sold "as-is" are automatically supposed to do their job. If you buy a steak knife it should be able to cut steak. If you buy a pen you can write with it.

    It doesn't say that you get to take the steak knife home for a few days before you pay for it, and take it back if it turns out you can't cut tin cans with it. It doesn't say that you should get to write fifty pages' worth with your new pen and then decide if you want to pay for it.

    But I guess that might be opaque to a silly goose who goes around calling people he disagrees with "dumbass".

    mythago on
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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    mythago wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »

    The implied warranty of merchantability does not mean "you get to try it scot-free for a few days before you pay for it and give it back if you don't like it". It means that written warranty or not, products not sold "as-is" are automatically supposed to do their job. If you buy a steak knife it should be able to cut steak. If you buy a pen you can write with it.

    It doesn't say that you get to take the steak knife home for a few days before you pay for it, and take it back if it turns out you can't cut tin cans with it. It doesn't say that you should get to write fifty pages' worth with your new pen and then decide if you want to pay for it.

    But I guess that might be opaque to a silly goose who goes around calling people he disagrees with "dumbass".

    Since the OP is talking about a game which advertised proper scaling on 16:10 monitors (including HUD), but doesn't, your post is pretty fucking irrelevant, huh?

    mcdermott on
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