has anybody pointed out that internet connections in general have gotten about a million times beefier since the days of diablo 1/2/starcraft 1/bw, and that probably is one of the main factors in pushing a product "out the door" before it's finished?
imagine downloading a 300mb patch over a 56.6k modem.
with the huge amounts of bandwidth now available to like, every consumer, of course they're going to omit some unnecessary things and opt for patches.
it's a change of form, but only because they now have that capability.
Xenocide Geek on
i wanted love, i needed love
most of all, most of all
someone said true love was dead
but i'm bound to fall
bound to fall for you
oh what can i do
"Having only 1 ID means that anyone famous is going to be harassed to no end - this might not be much of a problem now, since nobody is really famous yet, but imagine what a future BoxeR would have to go through. I think, and hope, that the current ID system is indeed a temporary state of affairs. Having only 1 account also discourages you from playing any race other than your main, as it will adversely affect your ability to find good games when playing more seriously. For instance, I'd love to play some mess-around ladder games as random, but I'm not gonna do it, since my zerg isn't even a 10th as good as my terran, which means I'll lose a lot - which is fine, but when I then start playing terran again, I'll be playing against worse players and it won't be productive." -Jinro
also
"It's ridiculous, private games should never appear in your matchlist, or at least the build orders shouldn't. I'll give an example from a recent tournament I played (Viking Cup #2 finals). My opponent for the finals was Failo from Denmark, so throughout the day leading up to the final, I simply checked through all his practice TvT games and looked at the build orders he'd been using. On Incineration Zone I noticed that he had an 8 rax cheese prepared, so I simply decided to go 10 rax to counter it. I never go 10 rax TvT, but this time, because I KNEW what he was doing, I did it and got a free win instead of what would have been a very likely loss, had I done a normal 12 rax or even my standard adaption for maps such as Incineration Zone - the 11 rax." -Jinro
Smurfing has an important role to play in games like this.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
0
ZarathustraEckUbermenschnow with stripes!Registered Userregular
Smurfing has an important role to play in games like this.
The vast majority of gamers are not at the pro level. They stand a good chance of being adversely affected by smurfing. I don't want to have a buddy of mine start up the game as a total noob to it and get steamrolled by 10 people on their smurf accounts right off the bat.
I'll agree that the build orders shouldn't show up like that. No argument here. But allowing multiple accounts isn't the way to solve that problem. Privacy settings would do it nicely as well. You could just set a preference for everyone on your Friends List saying what they can and can not see regarding your matches.
As for privacy and harassment... the most harassment I can imagine in the current system is a ton of friend requests. ...big deal. Or am I missing something nefarious?
If the vast majority of gamers are not at the pro level like you say, then the chances of your friend running into 10 of them in a row right off the bat are very slim.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
0
ZarathustraEckUbermenschnow with stripes!Registered Userregular
If the vast majority of gamers are not at the pro level like you say, then the chances of your friend running into 10 of them in a row right off the bat are very slim.
Pros, no. But those more experienced than he while still at a "beginner" level in terms of leagues? Yeah... that's what the door is opened to.
I can see someone arguing in favor of smurfing if they either are a professional gamer or like "pwning noobs." If the former is the case, I'd expect the ability to just buy a second account to solve that problem. I know I would if I were that serious about the game. If it's the latter... off with you.
Honestly, it might even affect non-pros; I'm thinking of our own league and other "for fun" leagues out there.
It'll be just as easy for me to look up my opponent's build order he's been practicing before a match as it would be for a pro to do the same a the pro-level.
The smurfing thing is pretty bad too, but I think it can be mitigated for most people if they just learn the off-race they want to try on customs before laddering.
Ideally, I'd have only one account at a time but ladder resets happen often enough (i.e. every 1 month) that it wouldn't matter too much.
It makes even the average gamer want to never switch races for fear of losing rank. People don't LIKE losing rank. Even non pros. They'll decide to switch to something else for a little while to "get used to it" and "practice" a race they aren't used to...lose a few...and go right back to their default. Like people who do nothing but all-in rush. It works some of the time...and when they try to do anything else they lose. So they go right back to doing the all-ins.
Maybe the first thing you should say to your friend is: This is going to take more than 10 games to get good at. Don't expect to understand all the ins and outs right away. That's always been a problem with getting a friend to play any new game: getting past the 100% noob phase to a level of, this game is fun. Play some custom 4v4s with him first.
Getting stomped isn't a bad thing. It shows you what NOT to do. Playing against people who are worse than you shows you what TO do. Room for both. You can dislike smurfing and I understand your objection to it, but I think the benefits of it outweigh the little bit of stomping that might occur.
With the brackets and sooooo many people playing, it'll get sorted out pretty quickly. But that just discourages off-racing even more.
Source for ladder being reset every month? That makes it a little less harsh. "This month is zerg month!" Not so bad.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
for blizzard as a company trying to keep loyal customers, preventing new players from getting stomped and getting their panties in a bunch is a bad thing, even though there are definite benefits to playing against better players if you are going at the game in a competitive sense of trying to better yourself
for people just goofing off playing some starcraft online, a bad experience could sour their view of blizzard
so blizzard mitigating these bad experiences seems fine to me
Bliz WANTS you to be matched up against people above your skill level. It's built into the ladder system.
Silver gets matched against gold all the time.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
Again, if platinum ranked players are a rare thing, then it occuring often down in the bronze leagues will also be a rare thing. You can survive a spanking now and then. Sometimes the pain is good baby relax. Anything in between is intended already.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
ZarathustraEckUbermenschnow with stripes!Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
You're straying from the points you outlined as reasons FOR smurfing.
You said the pros would be harassed, and I don't see how that would happen given the current system. You cited foreknowledge in seeing build orders, and that would be much more elegantly addressed via privacy settings. Now you're brushing those two (quite logical) points aside in favor of "well, they intend for you to face people better than you"? Meh.
Again, if platinum ranked players are a rare thing, then it occuring often down in the bronze leagues will also be a rare thing. You can survive a spanking now and then. Sometimes the pain is good baby relax. Anything in between is intended already.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said Platinum-ranked players were rare.
In any case, Blizzard's made it clear that it's NOT intended for someone to face an opponent who's just created a new account to trounce noobs. Some league disparity is one thing, but allowing someone with a thousand games under his belt to pose as a newcomer does not help the matchmaking one bit.
Bliz WANTS you to be matched up against people above your skill level. It's built into the ladder system.
Silver gets matched against gold all the time.
Does that mean that Bliz WANTS you to be matched up against people below your skill level just as much?
You take the position that the pros are going to use smurfs to lose on purpose, and sit around in bronze stomping. Why should that be the case? More likely a pro would place high with the smurf, and use that one for practice, but obviously in a higher league than bronze.
If you're a pro why would you spend your time trolling in bronze? You get nothing out of it. More likely the person losing on purpose in placement is someone not really cutting it in silver or gold. So if a person from silver/gold is trolling around bronze it's no different than the ladder system itself matching you with a higher league player on purpose. You wouldn't see the difference as a bronze player.
Privacy settings would be fine with me. Has Bliz even hinted at anything like that yet? Nope.
Q. Are matches ever made between different leagues? (For Example: A Gold league player playing against a Silver league player in a rated match.)
A. Yes, you may be matched up against players from different leagues to test your skill. So be on your guard and play your best in every match.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
okay some pros might not use smurfs to stomp, i acknowledge that
but you would be plain ignorant to think that no one would use smurfs to stomp
most people would use a smurf to stomp
and yes high level players would do it, maybe not uber gosu pros, but people in high gold and plat? i wouldn't doubt it for a second if other examples are to be taken (wc3 ladder for one)
edit: and if you can't see how playing against a plat level player because they threw their placement matches while you are in bronze is a plain as day bad thing,
We just differ on how often we think it would occur. That's cool. I'd like the ICCUP guy's opinion on how much of a problem smurfing really was in SC1.
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
Most people (who I've seen, anyway) don't really bother to smurf because it's usually not a whole lot of fun. However, you inevitably ran into players who were far far better than you, even at D ranks, just because there were so many people coming in at different points in the season and starting new accounts and who played sporadically.
Really, the general feeling that I've gotten from my time playing on iccup is that you are probably going to get fucked pretty badly, whether or not the person you're playing is intentionally beating up on newbs, so why let your feelings get hurt by a few games? There's been a lot of whining in this thread all throughout the beta where someone will get smashed for 3 or 4 games and then comes crying about how terrible the matchmaking system is for not being able to clairvoyantly assess their exact skill level and match them against equally skilled players, and that's just never ever ever going to happen.
Bliz WANTS you to be matched up against people above your skill level. It's built into the ladder system.
Silver gets matched against gold all the time.
? It's built to be possible but there's no sense in doing it on purpose. The purpose of a matchmaking system is to match you with people who are at your skill level, and only when you prove yourself better than them will you be matched higher.
Most people (who I've seen, anyway) don't really bother to smurf because it's usually not a whole lot of fun. However, you inevitably ran into players who were far far better than you, even at D ranks, just because there were so many people coming in at different points in the season and starting new accounts and who played sporadically.
Really, the general feeling that I've gotten from my time playing on iccup is that you are probably going to get fucked pretty badly, whether or not the person you're playing is intentionally beating up on newbs, so why let your feelings get hurt by a few games? There's been a lot of whining in this thread all throughout the beta where someone will get smashed for 3 or 4 games and then comes crying about how terrible the matchmaking system is for not being able to clairvoyantly assess their exact skill level and match them against equally skilled players, and that's just never ever ever going to happen.
I don't know, but I'm a programmer, and I really would just like an opportunity to write the algorithm for match-making, I'm not saying I'd do it better because I'm awesome or smart or anything, I'm just saying I'd like to do it because it would be really fun, and I think that after some experimentation you could do really cool things
In general I find ladder systems to be very boring, and their existence is more of utility than to promote fun, I'd like to have another option to ladder games that was more interesting to casual players, but still was factored into the ladder system
"It's ridiculous, private games should never appear in your matchlist, or at least the build orders shouldn't. I'll give an example from a recent tournament I played (Viking Cup #2 finals). My opponent for the finals was Failo from Denmark, so throughout the day leading up to the final, I simply checked through all his practice TvT games and looked at the build orders he'd been using. On Incineration Zone I noticed that he had an 8 rax cheese prepared, so I simply decided to go 10 rax to counter it. I never go 10 rax TvT, but this time, because I KNEW what he was doing, I did it and got a free win instead of what would have been a very likely loss, had I done a normal 12 rax or even my standard adaption for maps such as Incineration Zone - the 11 rax." -Jinro
I admit, I did this against a fellow PA'er in the last tournament I was in. I was straight-up expecting his practiced cheese.
Mind you, I panicked and fucked up my build and it nearly cost me the game, but I probably would have straight-up lost if I couldn't go zip through his game history and see how he'd been practicing the map in the past day.
You take the position that the pros are going to use smurfs to lose on purpose, and sit around in bronze stomping. Why should that be the case? More likely a pro would place high with the smurf, and use that one for practice, but obviously in a higher league than bronze.
To whom are you replying? If it's me (and reading the thread, it would logically seem so) you're back to building a straw man. I'll chime back in on this thread later. For now, there's no use debating.
couldnt they just make it so you move up and down leagues relatively easily?
for example, you get 5 "placement" games. this determines your initial ranking:
5 wins - a rank
3-4 wins - b rank
2-3 wins - c rank
0-1 win - d rank
the next 5 games are also "placement" games:
4-5 wins, you move up
1-3 wins, you stay
0 wins, you move down
then the next 5 games are also "placement" games, etc., etc., etc.
so the majority of people will get to where they should be very quickly, within 10 or 15 matches and stay there. even if you are placed somewhere you shouldnt be, you'll move up or down quickly enough that it doesnt matter at all.
If ICCup had better separation of the D ranks I think it'd be a great system. Right now, I think it's already a great system for anyone who is C rank or higher. This is because once you get into the C ranks you're really only playing the top 30% of players, the majority of which were around your skill level. Therefore the chances of getting totally smashed game after game gets lower and lower the higher you rank up.
If you were a D rank player though, you were getting beat on by A/B/C rank players who are simply just moving through the D ranks as well as other D rank players who are just better than you but are still D rank cause there's a wide range of skills within that rank.
Dangerisk on
If what you say is true, the Shaolin and the Wu-Tang could be DANGERISK.
I think another thing that will occur in order to increase the reliability of the leagues will be increasing the number of placement matches back to 10 potentially? I recall that 10 was the norm before all the constant resets and then Blizz decided to reduce it 5 for convenience's sake.
With a bigger pool of games, as well as perhaps a feature that sees if people just quit in the first 2 minutes or something of that nature (I swear I saw something like this during ladder play when someone just quit and it awarded neither of us points), I believe we'll have a really great system.
Perfect? No. Better than most other RTS games? most certainly.
To whom are you replying? If it's me (and reading the thread, it would logically seem so) you're back to building a straw man.
Let me quote you directly if you think I'm setting up a strawman.
Pros, no. But those more experienced than he while still at a "beginner" level in terms of leagues? Yeah... that's what the door is opened to.
The door is already open. Matches between players of varying skill levels is intended as evidenced by the current ladder system and how points are allocated. If it is your opinion that this is a bad thing, so be it. I simply disagree. Matches SHOULD occur between all levels of play. How else do you improve? It isn't by playing your friend 1,000 times. You may learn eachother's tricks, but you're not exposing yourself to ALL that's possible. You need a huge variety to play against. IMO smurfing doesn't tilt that balance to any noticable degree.
So you're only worried about the games where the disparity between skill is huge? Why is that a problem? It seems to me you think smurfing for evil noob stomping purposes would be a rampant problem if it were allowed. I maintain it would be pretty low. What makes you think it would be such a plague upon bronze?
I'll agree that the build orders shouldn't show up like that. No argument here. But allowing multiple accounts isn't the way to solve that problem. Privacy settings would do it nicely as well. You could just set a preference for everyone on your Friends List saying what they can and can not see regarding your matches.
I'm perfectly fine with privacy settings. Too bad they don't exist. We both agree on this point that seeing other BO's is a bad thing. Moving on.
As for privacy and harassment... the most harassment I can imagine in the current system is a ton of friend requests. ...big deal. Or am I missing something nefarious?
Seeing as neither you nor I will ever be a top pro player, I can see how this wouldn't bother you. But since there ISN'T any privacy protection planned, the build order viewing problem is only highlighted. It might not ever be a problem for you and your noob friend, but it's worth noting. If Bliz is trying to encourage esports, this doesn't help. As for friend requests, can you imagine being day9 and logging on? Personally, I can understand why Buckethead hides his face.
I can see someone arguing in favor of smurfing if they either are a professional gamer or like "pwning noobs." If the former is the case, I'd expect the ability to just buy a second account to solve that problem. I know I would if I were that serious about the game. If it's the latter... off with you.
Whatever. I think it's pretty fucked up to require someone to buy an additional copy just to practice under another name. What are you, the Russians in Rocky IV? I say let Rocky train in private.
Drago...the ultimate smurf. Apollo thought he was a bronze player omg! Did you see that APM?! 2150!!!!
My point was also that there are more people than just the pros and trolls who would find a smurf account useful. To the person that said the pro should just practice in custom games, that only helps to a certain point. At some point you need to try out your fledgling build against the masses.
For a NORMAL player: Losing 10 games in a row can drop you an entire league if you lose to the wrong people...and winning 30 more after that doesn't push you back into your previous league. So why should someone try anything new and risk a setback like that? Might spend some time stomping on a whole lot of noobs. How many more before you're back to playing where you really should be? Bliz won't say how it works. Smurfing allows a little breathing room for experimentation.
You're straying from the points you outlined as reasons FOR smurfing.
Did I miss anything?
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said Platinum-ranked players were rare.
The vast majority of gamers are not at the pro level.
Semantics. Maybe to you, platinum isn't "pro"...but high enough to think the babygamers need to be protected from them right? Oh how soulcrushing that 6pool would have been for the bronzeallstar #420. Better get him some Paxil, Zoloft, Lexapro, Wellbutrin, Effexor and Crymoreazine.
You're right, there isn't any use debating. Bliz wants to cater to the new people. Obviously this will protect them from getting stomped. Do you really believe that?
Bronze and silver is going to be a mess for a very long time. Possibly always. There will be a massive mix of people good at micro, but suck at macro. Then another group who is the opposite. Then another group who might have great mechanics but doesn't have any talent for strategy. The lower leagues are bound to be a chaotic mess of gameplay styles. When you start to rise out of the scum leagues is when you pull all those elements together. How the hell does a plat smurf damage that balance? How would the noob even know the difference? He wouldn't. Bronze would be the new Dcup. How could you possibly seperate all that chaotic mess even further?
Ok all the people with 100+ apm but only make it to 50 food before losing over here in Bronze-#57
All the people with a 200 army but don't notice a DT killing every single troop over this way to Bronze-#21
That feeling Drag describes of
probably going to get fucked pretty badly, whether or not the person you're playing is intentionally beating up on newbs
is going to continue. Smurfs or not.
What happens if the noob wins 5 in a row during prelims, but only because all his opponents dropped? He might be losing a streak much bigger than 10 as he spirals down slowly to bronze. Ouch. More draconian protections need to be put in place right? 10 games is indeed better. But both of you losing/gaining nothing if someone leaves early doesn't help either. Certainly you'd have people quitting after the very first misclick just to protect themselves. There would be even more "ragequits" than in L4D2. (If that's possible.)
TLDR: You have one semi viable reason for anti smurfing from a consumer's standpoint: Stomping isn't good for the self esteem of noobs. Yet stomping will occur no matter what. OTOH, smurfing is a useful tool for more than just one reason and doesn't add to that amount of stomping in any noticeable way. Hell, limit the number of smurfs to just one, but allow something to be used as a casual account. Listen to that Day9 podcast I linked...he goes into further detail about why playing against worse players is a good thing. I don't feel like spending all my time listing each one out when you could go and listen.
OTOH for Bliz, the reasons for wanting to end smurfing are a little more...green.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
This might be the whiskey speaking, what what in the fuck are you trying to say?
To be honest, if it were possible, matchmaking would always throw you up against people worse than you but make you think they were better because you'd feel like such a kick ass dude if you didn't know better.
But that doesn't work unless they throw the worse people against non-existent players or something.
Personally, I love those matches where I lose, but then I see that I only lose one point and oh.
Posts
the 1000th sephiroth is going to be so sad.
has anybody pointed out that internet connections in general have gotten about a million times beefier since the days of diablo 1/2/starcraft 1/bw, and that probably is one of the main factors in pushing a product "out the door" before it's finished?
imagine downloading a 300mb patch over a 56.6k modem.
with the huge amounts of bandwidth now available to like, every consumer, of course they're going to omit some unnecessary things and opt for patches.
it's a change of form, but only because they now have that capability.
most of all, most of all
someone said true love was dead
but i'm bound to fall
bound to fall for you
oh what can i do
starcraft part deux
That gives me time to register 999 Mattitudes
And that's a beautiful thing.
-Z
also
"It's ridiculous, private games should never appear in your matchlist, or at least the build orders shouldn't. I'll give an example from a recent tournament I played (Viking Cup #2 finals). My opponent for the finals was Failo from Denmark, so throughout the day leading up to the final, I simply checked through all his practice TvT games and looked at the build orders he'd been using. On Incineration Zone I noticed that he had an 8 rax cheese prepared, so I simply decided to go 10 rax to counter it. I never go 10 rax TvT, but this time, because I KNEW what he was doing, I did it and got a free win instead of what would have been a very likely loss, had I done a normal 12 rax or even my standard adaption for maps such as Incineration Zone - the 11 rax." -Jinro
Smurfing has an important role to play in games like this.
The vast majority of gamers are not at the pro level. They stand a good chance of being adversely affected by smurfing. I don't want to have a buddy of mine start up the game as a total noob to it and get steamrolled by 10 people on their smurf accounts right off the bat.
I'll agree that the build orders shouldn't show up like that. No argument here. But allowing multiple accounts isn't the way to solve that problem. Privacy settings would do it nicely as well. You could just set a preference for everyone on your Friends List saying what they can and can not see regarding your matches.
As for privacy and harassment... the most harassment I can imagine in the current system is a ton of friend requests. ...big deal. Or am I missing something nefarious?
-Z
Pros, no. But those more experienced than he while still at a "beginner" level in terms of leagues? Yeah... that's what the door is opened to.
I can see someone arguing in favor of smurfing if they either are a professional gamer or like "pwning noobs." If the former is the case, I'd expect the ability to just buy a second account to solve that problem. I know I would if I were that serious about the game. If it's the latter... off with you.
-Z
It'll be just as easy for me to look up my opponent's build order he's been practicing before a match as it would be for a pro to do the same a the pro-level.
The smurfing thing is pretty bad too, but I think it can be mitigated for most people if they just learn the off-race they want to try on customs before laddering.
Ideally, I'd have only one account at a time but ladder resets happen often enough (i.e. every 1 month) that it wouldn't matter too much.
Maybe the first thing you should say to your friend is: This is going to take more than 10 games to get good at. Don't expect to understand all the ins and outs right away. That's always been a problem with getting a friend to play any new game: getting past the 100% noob phase to a level of, this game is fun. Play some custom 4v4s with him first.
Getting stomped isn't a bad thing. It shows you what NOT to do. Playing against people who are worse than you shows you what TO do. Room for both. You can dislike smurfing and I understand your objection to it, but I think the benefits of it outweigh the little bit of stomping that might occur.
With the brackets and sooooo many people playing, it'll get sorted out pretty quickly. But that just discourages off-racing even more.
Source for ladder being reset every month? That makes it a little less harsh. "This month is zerg month!" Not so bad.
for people just goofing off playing some starcraft online, a bad experience could sour their view of blizzard
so blizzard mitigating these bad experiences seems fine to me
Silver gets matched against gold all the time.
That's my argument against multiple "characters" in SC2 in a nutshell.
And if someone wants to learn a new race, they can go ahead and do so. I'll probably play on Random most of the time for just that reason.
-Z
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507
You said the pros would be harassed, and I don't see how that would happen given the current system. You cited foreknowledge in seeing build orders, and that would be much more elegantly addressed via privacy settings. Now you're brushing those two (quite logical) points aside in favor of "well, they intend for you to face people better than you"? Meh.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said Platinum-ranked players were rare.
In any case, Blizzard's made it clear that it's NOT intended for someone to face an opponent who's just created a new account to trounce noobs. Some league disparity is one thing, but allowing someone with a thousand games under his belt to pose as a newcomer does not help the matchmaking one bit.
-Z
Does that mean that Bliz WANTS you to be matched up against people below your skill level just as much?
If you're a pro why would you spend your time trolling in bronze? You get nothing out of it. More likely the person losing on purpose in placement is someone not really cutting it in silver or gold. So if a person from silver/gold is trolling around bronze it's no different than the ladder system itself matching you with a higher league player on purpose. You wouldn't see the difference as a bronze player.
Privacy settings would be fine with me. Has Bliz even hinted at anything like that yet? Nope.
Q. Are matches ever made between different leagues? (For Example: A Gold league player playing against a Silver league player in a rated match.)
A. Yes, you may be matched up against players from different leagues to test your skill. So be on your guard and play your best in every match.
but you would be plain ignorant to think that no one would use smurfs to stomp
most people would use a smurf to stomp
and yes high level players would do it, maybe not uber gosu pros, but people in high gold and plat? i wouldn't doubt it for a second if other examples are to be taken (wc3 ladder for one)
edit: and if you can't see how playing against a plat level player because they threw their placement matches while you are in bronze is a plain as day bad thing,
Also:
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/intrigue/Day90006PlayAgainstWorsePlay.mp3
Most people (who I've seen, anyway) don't really bother to smurf because it's usually not a whole lot of fun. However, you inevitably ran into players who were far far better than you, even at D ranks, just because there were so many people coming in at different points in the season and starting new accounts and who played sporadically.
Really, the general feeling that I've gotten from my time playing on iccup is that you are probably going to get fucked pretty badly, whether or not the person you're playing is intentionally beating up on newbs, so why let your feelings get hurt by a few games? There's been a lot of whining in this thread all throughout the beta where someone will get smashed for 3 or 4 games and then comes crying about how terrible the matchmaking system is for not being able to clairvoyantly assess their exact skill level and match them against equally skilled players, and that's just never ever ever going to happen.
? It's built to be possible but there's no sense in doing it on purpose. The purpose of a matchmaking system is to match you with people who are at your skill level, and only when you prove yourself better than them will you be matched higher.
FFBE: 898,311,440
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/dElementalor
I don't know, but I'm a programmer, and I really would just like an opportunity to write the algorithm for match-making, I'm not saying I'd do it better because I'm awesome or smart or anything, I'm just saying I'd like to do it because it would be really fun, and I think that after some experimentation you could do really cool things
In general I find ladder systems to be very boring, and their existence is more of utility than to promote fun, I'd like to have another option to ladder games that was more interesting to casual players, but still was factored into the ladder system
That's a great idea, and I'm surprised that it seemingly doesn't take that into account right now
I admit, I did this against a fellow PA'er in the last tournament I was in. I was straight-up expecting his practiced cheese.
Mind you, I panicked and fucked up my build and it nearly cost me the game, but I probably would have straight-up lost if I couldn't go zip through his game history and see how he'd been practicing the map in the past day.
but either way
i doubt blizz is going to change their mind on the 1 account per box thing
To whom are you replying? If it's me (and reading the thread, it would logically seem so) you're back to building a straw man. I'll chime back in on this thread later. For now, there's no use debating.
-Z
for example, you get 5 "placement" games. this determines your initial ranking:
5 wins - a rank
3-4 wins - b rank
2-3 wins - c rank
0-1 win - d rank
the next 5 games are also "placement" games:
4-5 wins, you move up
1-3 wins, you stay
0 wins, you move down
then the next 5 games are also "placement" games, etc., etc., etc.
so the majority of people will get to where they should be very quickly, within 10 or 15 matches and stay there. even if you are placed somewhere you shouldnt be, you'll move up or down quickly enough that it doesnt matter at all.
If you were a D rank player though, you were getting beat on by A/B/C rank players who are simply just moving through the D ranks as well as other D rank players who are just better than you but are still D rank cause there's a wide range of skills within that rank.
With a bigger pool of games, as well as perhaps a feature that sees if people just quit in the first 2 minutes or something of that nature (I swear I saw something like this during ladder play when someone just quit and it awarded neither of us points), I believe we'll have a really great system.
Perfect? No. Better than most other RTS games? most certainly.
get your own starcraft 2 signature at sc2sig.com
Let me quote you directly if you think I'm setting up a strawman.
The door is already open. Matches between players of varying skill levels is intended as evidenced by the current ladder system and how points are allocated. If it is your opinion that this is a bad thing, so be it. I simply disagree. Matches SHOULD occur between all levels of play. How else do you improve? It isn't by playing your friend 1,000 times. You may learn eachother's tricks, but you're not exposing yourself to ALL that's possible. You need a huge variety to play against. IMO smurfing doesn't tilt that balance to any noticable degree.
So you're only worried about the games where the disparity between skill is huge? Why is that a problem? It seems to me you think smurfing for evil noob stomping purposes would be a rampant problem if it were allowed. I maintain it would be pretty low. What makes you think it would be such a plague upon bronze?
I'm perfectly fine with privacy settings. Too bad they don't exist. We both agree on this point that seeing other BO's is a bad thing. Moving on.
Seeing as neither you nor I will ever be a top pro player, I can see how this wouldn't bother you. But since there ISN'T any privacy protection planned, the build order viewing problem is only highlighted. It might not ever be a problem for you and your noob friend, but it's worth noting. If Bliz is trying to encourage esports, this doesn't help. As for friend requests, can you imagine being day9 and logging on? Personally, I can understand why Buckethead hides his face.
Whatever. I think it's pretty fucked up to require someone to buy an additional copy just to practice under another name. What are you, the Russians in Rocky IV? I say let Rocky train in private.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oDTNEEu3Rw
Drago...the ultimate smurf. Apollo thought he was a bronze player omg! Did you see that APM?! 2150!!!!
My point was also that there are more people than just the pros and trolls who would find a smurf account useful. To the person that said the pro should just practice in custom games, that only helps to a certain point. At some point you need to try out your fledgling build against the masses.
For a NORMAL player: Losing 10 games in a row can drop you an entire league if you lose to the wrong people...and winning 30 more after that doesn't push you back into your previous league. So why should someone try anything new and risk a setback like that? Might spend some time stomping on a whole lot of noobs. How many more before you're back to playing where you really should be? Bliz won't say how it works. Smurfing allows a little breathing room for experimentation.
Did I miss anything?
Semantics. Maybe to you, platinum isn't "pro"...but high enough to think the babygamers need to be protected from them right? Oh how soulcrushing that 6pool would have been for the bronzeallstar #420. Better get him some Paxil, Zoloft, Lexapro, Wellbutrin, Effexor and Crymoreazine.
You're right, there isn't any use debating. Bliz wants to cater to the new people. Obviously this will protect them from getting stomped. Do you really believe that?
Bronze and silver is going to be a mess for a very long time. Possibly always. There will be a massive mix of people good at micro, but suck at macro. Then another group who is the opposite. Then another group who might have great mechanics but doesn't have any talent for strategy. The lower leagues are bound to be a chaotic mess of gameplay styles. When you start to rise out of the scum leagues is when you pull all those elements together. How the hell does a plat smurf damage that balance? How would the noob even know the difference? He wouldn't. Bronze would be the new Dcup. How could you possibly seperate all that chaotic mess even further?
Ok all the people with 100+ apm but only make it to 50 food before losing over here in Bronze-#57
All the people with a 200 army but don't notice a DT killing every single troop over this way to Bronze-#21
That feeling Drag describes of is going to continue. Smurfs or not.
What happens if the noob wins 5 in a row during prelims, but only because all his opponents dropped? He might be losing a streak much bigger than 10 as he spirals down slowly to bronze. Ouch. More draconian protections need to be put in place right? 10 games is indeed better. But both of you losing/gaining nothing if someone leaves early doesn't help either. Certainly you'd have people quitting after the very first misclick just to protect themselves. There would be even more "ragequits" than in L4D2. (If that's possible.)
TLDR: You have one semi viable reason for anti smurfing from a consumer's standpoint: Stomping isn't good for the self esteem of noobs. Yet stomping will occur no matter what. OTOH, smurfing is a useful tool for more than just one reason and doesn't add to that amount of stomping in any noticeable way. Hell, limit the number of smurfs to just one, but allow something to be used as a casual account. Listen to that Day9 podcast I linked...he goes into further detail about why playing against worse players is a good thing. I don't feel like spending all my time listing each one out when you could go and listen.
OTOH for Bliz, the reasons for wanting to end smurfing are a little more...green.
This might be the whiskey speaking, what what in the fuck are you trying to say?
To be honest, if it were possible, matchmaking would always throw you up against people worse than you but make you think they were better because you'd feel like such a kick ass dude if you didn't know better.
But that doesn't work unless they throw the worse people against non-existent players or something.
Personally, I love those matches where I lose, but then I see that I only lose one point and oh.
Gonna need the cliff notes on that one.