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On game mechanics and copyright law

Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
edited June 2010 in Help / Advice Forum
Just an idle thought, definately purely hypothetical, possibly not an easy answer.

I was wondering, if someone were to make a computer game with a complete copy/paste rip of the D&D mechanics, but all the text, fluff, characters and such altered to non-copyright infringing versions, would that be kosher from a legal stand point? Obviously morally highly dubious but would Wizards have anything to get you by?

Would it make a difference if the mechanics were entirely hidden 'under the hood' in the game code?

Purely a thought experiment, I have no plans (or ability) to do anything of the kind.

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Posts

  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    "You" would almost certainly be sued and almost certainly lose.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • DrFrylockDrFrylock Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I was wondering, if someone were to make a computer game with a complete copy/paste rip of the D&D mechanics, but all the text, fluff, characters and such altered to non-copyright infringing versions, would that be kosher from a legal stand point? Obviously morally highly dubious but would Wizards have anything to get you by?

    ObDisclaimer: IANAL.

    Many video games (e.g., Knights of the Old Republic) implement D&D-style "D20" mechanics under the hood.

    Game mechanics can probably not be copyrighted. I say 'probably' because copyright is a nuanced law and broad interpretations of it may make some kinds of very literal copying of game mechanics infringement. Particular descriptions of those mechanics, and descriptions of specific characters, can be copyrighted, but the mechanics themselves can generally not be. If you reimplemented them on your own, you'd be very likely to be safe.

    The U.S. Copyright Office has an article on games and what can and can't be copyrighted.

    Game mechanics can probably be patented, although I'm not aware of any patents on the "D20"-style mechanics. The Bilski case, currently pending before the U.S. Supreme Court, may substantially change whether and how gameplay mechanics can be patented.

    These issues go back to the earliest days of video games. A cottage industry sprung up in the 1980s making copies of popular games like Pac-Man. On-Line Systems (later Sierra On-Line) was sued for distributing a Pac-Man clone that was a little too close for comfort. They ended up keeping the maze and gameplay but changing the graphics so as not to include a Pac-Man character or Ghost characters. However, I believe that suit was settled out of court and so the issue was never fully resolved.

    Consider also the game mechanics behind Scrabble and the recent Scrabulous debacle: the game still exists with identical-to-Scrabble mechanics, but the developers had to change the names and such to avoid trademark issues (trademark, patents, and copyrights are three different areas of IP law). This reaffirms the Pac-Man outcome.
    Would it make a difference if the mechanics were entirely hidden 'under the hood' in the game code?

    Since they can't really be copyrighted, this is a moot question. However, if they COULD be copyrighted, then it likely would make little difference.

    DrFrylock on
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    D20 is open source, last I checked (this was around 3.5). Not sure how that translates to video games.

    Zombiemambo on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    What does it mean to say that D20 is open source? Does wizards let anyone who wants to develop and publish games using their roll system? (I thought that kotor and etc. had d20 based systems because they were adapted from PnP games.)

    Anyway, assuming they don't, you would run afoul mostly of patent, like frylock said. If you lifted the ruleset wholesale you could be on the hook for copyright infringement, also.

    Obviously the concept of "rolling a D20 to hit" isn't really IP by itself; it can't be copyrighted and probably wouldn't stand up as a patent either. The entire D&D system is certainly is intellectual property though, and I would be surprised if wizards didn't own and defend the patent on it.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    KOTOR was licensed and adapted from the PnP game.

    D20 is open-source. That does not mean that everything D20 is available, but everything on the SRD and anything marked as open by publishers is.

    The SRD is, or at least was a few years ago, missing key information about leveling up. I'm not sure how that would impact things. There's also a FAQ here that has a few notes on software.

    Tomanta on
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Game mechanics are hard to copyright. Look at Nethack. A truly suspicious resemblance to 1st ed D&D, and never sued as far as I know. Of course, it's free.

    Also notice how casual games are complete rip-offs of each other. Almost every one has the game mechanics stolen from another. No suing.

    To be safe, you'd need to change all the names. No "feats" or "rangers" - try "powers" and "woodsmen", and I'd guess also fudge the numbers a bit so the level progressions are different.

    CelestialBadger on
  • oldsakoldsak Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Game mechanics/rules are probably not copyrightable.

    The actual code is copyrighted so a straight copy/paste will infringe copyright.

    oldsak on
  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    oldsak wrote: »
    Game mechanics/rules are probably not copyrightable.

    The actual code is copyrighted so a straight copy/paste will infringe copyright.

    This.

    Though, you may have legal grounds, from a thought perspective, because it would be notoriously hard to prove and because I'm sure there are a whole lot of games that have not been sued yet, or have been in play for a decade and still not sued. A lot of copyright/trademark cases get thrown out of they're not willing to enforce their copyrights or trademarks.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • MetalbourneMetalbourne Inside a cluster b personalityRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Game mechanics are hard to copyright. Look at Nethack. A truly suspicious resemblance to 1st ed D&D, and never sued as far as I know. Of course, it's free.

    Also notice how casual games are complete rip-offs of each other. Almost every one has the game mechanics stolen from another. No suing.

    To be safe, you'd need to change all the names. No "feats" or "rangers" - try "powers" and "woodsmen", and I'd guess also fudge the numbers a bit so the level progressions are different.

    Yeah, I was just thinking to myself how many games lately are third person shooters that let me hide behind cover at the press of a button.

    I don't think anyone is going to fault you for checking a skill against a 20 side die roll, especially one that happens "under the hood" but people would cry foul if you stole material directly out of a D&D book.

    Metalbourne on
  • bowenbowen Sup? Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Also, Wizards is also really, really protective of their copyrights and trademarks, from what I've seen.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • DrakeRunnerDrakeRunner Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Much like a cop can still pull you over if you and 20 other people are going 50mph in a 20mph zone, it certainly does not guarantee legal safety, but games such as OpenRPG, GameTable, Maptools, and others attempt to implement d20 system mechanics... but certainly not on the scale of Neverwinter Nights or Temple of Elemental Evil. You have precedent of independent game developers creating systems where d20 system mechanics are in use and further can be implemented, but that still doesn't grant you safety should a crackdown occur.

    I hope this helps.

    DrakeRunner on
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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    bowen wrote: »
    Also, Wizards is also really, really protective of their copyrights and trademarks, from what I've seen.

    That just means you can't use their literal words - no calling it "D&D", no "Beholders" or "Mind Flayers" or monsters with identical stats to the Monster Manual equivalent.

    CelestialBadger on
  • GihgehlsGihgehls Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    The rules to a game cannot be copyrighted. The assets can.

    Gihgehls on
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  • SkyCaptainSkyCaptain IndianaRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    You could even go so far as to publish a book that is compatible with D&D 4th Edition game mechanics, as long as you don't use any trademarked terms, don't use any fluff in their books, and create your own statblock for monsters.

    SkyCaptain on
    The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
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