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Plagiarism, Censorship, and Obscure Video Games
MadCoder
Registered User new member
Registered User new member
Backstory: I'm sure that a good number of people visiting these forums are aware of Unforgotten Realms. Robert Moran is the creator of this fairly successful and quite funny series of animated shows. Unforgotten Realms is known for using video game music in some of their very early stuff on Newgrounds before their switch over to Escapist Magazine. After that point, they contacted a composer to make an orchestral version of their theme song and cut back on the other music they were adding. The theme song is prominent in every one of the animations on their website and, I assume, on the DVDs as well. They have since broken away from Escapist and created their own website.
This last weekend, while fishing out one of the old games for a bit of recreation, I noticed that the theme song used by their series was taken from an obscure Capcom game - Destiny Of An Emperor 2 - from the late 80's / early 90's. And by 'taken', I don't mean that they added a note or two Vanilla Ice style. I mean that it's a perfect rip.
I recently added a post to a long-running, 30-plus reply thread named 'Theme Song FAQ Page' on their forums, and I asked if the theme music had it's origins in the old Capcom game. I only received an unhelpful response from a non-administrator before the thread was deleted. Not just my posts, no. They deleted the entire thing - scorched-Earth style. Since then, my private messages to the head forum administrator (which I assume is Robert) have gone ignored. It's obvious that someone was scared of the post that I made or, at least, the implications of it. Considering the fact that it would be fruitless to post this on the UR forums, I'm hoping that PA might be my 'route'.
The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. -- John Gilmore
All that said, this situation happening has raised a few questions in my mind and I would like to see where we, the collective Internet hive-mind of gamers, stand on a few issues:
Is plagiarism in any form unacceptable?
Is it alright to use music like this if it's a personal endeavor (Newgrounds) but too much to use it in a commercial release (WittyWizard.com)?
Is it more acceptable to take from a twenty year old game than from a blockbuster title released last month?
At what point do we react to someone plagiarizing music, art or writing?
Am I just sour because someone tried to shut me up instead of taking responsibility?
Thanks everyone,
MC
Theme Song DoaE2
This last weekend, while fishing out one of the old games for a bit of recreation, I noticed that the theme song used by their series was taken from an obscure Capcom game - Destiny Of An Emperor 2 - from the late 80's / early 90's. And by 'taken', I don't mean that they added a note or two Vanilla Ice style. I mean that it's a perfect rip.
I recently added a post to a long-running, 30-plus reply thread named 'Theme Song FAQ Page' on their forums, and I asked if the theme music had it's origins in the old Capcom game. I only received an unhelpful response from a non-administrator before the thread was deleted. Not just my posts, no. They deleted the entire thing - scorched-Earth style. Since then, my private messages to the head forum administrator (which I assume is Robert) have gone ignored. It's obvious that someone was scared of the post that I made or, at least, the implications of it. Considering the fact that it would be fruitless to post this on the UR forums, I'm hoping that PA might be my 'route'.
The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. -- John Gilmore
All that said, this situation happening has raised a few questions in my mind and I would like to see where we, the collective Internet hive-mind of gamers, stand on a few issues:
Is plagiarism in any form unacceptable?
Is it alright to use music like this if it's a personal endeavor (Newgrounds) but too much to use it in a commercial release (WittyWizard.com)?
Is it more acceptable to take from a twenty year old game than from a blockbuster title released last month?
At what point do we react to someone plagiarizing music, art or writing?
Am I just sour because someone tried to shut me up instead of taking responsibility?
Thanks everyone,
MC
Theme Song DoaE2
MadCoder on
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Posts
Thing is, skeevy though it is, I suspect nobody really cares.
You could contact the company who do own the rights to the song, and if someone looks at it they might send out cease and desist to these guys, but unless they're selling the soundtrack I suspect no more.
Only if the rights owners care that their IP is being used.
Age has nothing to do with it (other than like, if it's old enough to be public domain). Stealing the Mario 1-1 theme is just as egregious as stealing the theme to Mario Galaxy 2, because Nintendo still cares about the 1-1 theme.
The point at which the rights holder takes issue with the theft.
yes, absolutely.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
<ProfMoriarty> oh yeah. one time I PMed a picture of my penis to a forumer, and then I got a PM from Thanatos saying "nice girth"
You'd be amazed at how frequently pop radio hits melodies are complete and wholesale ripoffs of obscure music from other genres.
I've noticed less since I've stopped DJing in the past few years, but it used to blow my mind to be listening to a 10 year old obscure house record and realize I recognized the melody and beat from something on the radio.
Context is everything I think.
It could be the whole independent vs corporation thing though.
edit: I think another reason is because Capcom doesn't actively lose sales for every episode someone purchases (if they're up for purchase). Capcom doesn't compete with the series in any way, so even if it's argued that the studio saved money by using capcom's song I wouldn't care since it doesn't give them an 'edge' against capcom anyways.
I don't think anyone will really do anything about it.
The Black Eyed Peas have made a lucrative career from doing this exact thing. I'd go so far to say that they haven't created an original melody in the last 5 years.
And that is why the Black Eyed Peas are shit.
But now that I've put that in, it's time for my two cents.
As somebody who regularly posts (and watches friends post) artwork, poems and other written pieces on the web...Well, I'd be PISSED if some-one took my stuff and passed it off as their own. It's already happened to people I know and now she copyrights EVERYTHING she puts on the web without exception.
The bottom line is this; Plagiarism, to me anyway, is wholly unacceptable. If somebody infringes on/outright steals intellectual property they deserve to be hammered for it.
They are the rights holder, it's up to them to either defend the rights or let it lapse.
Evidently, you've no intellectual property worth stealing. With that attitude towards plagiarism I imagine not anyway.
If they're not making money, I'm sure they can claim it as "fair use" (But they still should have asked for permission from Capcom, to keep themselves right legally).
BUT...If I know that some-ones making money off something I done that's copywritten, and is infringing any copyrights I have to that piece to the point where it's detrimental to the profits I make on that piece, you better believe I'm pressing ahead with legal action. And what, if some whistleblower tips me off to this, then that makes them a bitch? No, I completely disagree with that sentiment.
http://www.art-for-a-change.com/Obey/index.htm
Seriously this happens everywhere.
As far as I know, unless it's used for educational purposes or in some forms non-profit it generally doesn't really matter in terms of legality.
The fact that your thread got an exterminatus called down on it merely cements the fact that there could be repercussions for the plagiarism. If it does bother you that much, just send an email to capcom with links etc. It's up to them whether it's worth sending a cease and desist.
rofl bok... classy!
Plagiarism is a broad and complex thing when it comes to music. It can also be interpreted as sampling. The tempo, instruments, etc are different, although the (forgot the word I"m looking for here) is kind of the same…
You are very sour, but eh, everybody needs a cause I suppose. and the internet's a great place to find em.
Heh, same thing happens to me. I've heard similiar parts of songs, but sometimes it's hard to point out to other people.
Like when this custom song for Rock Band was put on the internet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7cAiVqNy4o
all I could hear was
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMRiudMgHCs
Copyrights don't lapse (that's trademarks).
If you're in the US (or in a country that has signed certain treaties), everything you write is instantly copyrighted. If she wanted, she could get takedowns for her works that are up.
When I first posted this on their forums, I wasn't upset about them using the song. It was a simple 'Wow! I found out where that song came from' type of moment. I posted and asked simply for confirmation. It was the deletion of the posts and then the fact that I was wholly ignored by these people that really set me off. I got treated like that by a group of people whose videos I quite enjoyed prior to this. I guess it's the expectation that makes me upset: If a video made by a guy is funny, laid-back and enjoyable, surely the person who made it is the same way.
I just may. I don't know if it's even worth Capcom's time, but someone's got to. I doubt Unforgotten Realms is going to stop doing what they're doing unless Capcom steps in.
Aside from all that, thank you all for answering the post. It's heartening to see the sentiment that I expected to see - 'Snitches Are Bitches' aside.
MC
One of the major "is it plagiarism" songs in gaming is one of the most iconic recent songs in gaming too. The Metal Gear Solid theme. [url=http://www.destructoid.com/metal-gear-solid-theme-plagiarized-john-carpenter-nods-vigorously--51267.phtml[/url]An article about that[/url].
In movies you have the 300 Soundtrack which pretty much sounds like the soundtrack to Titus. etc... etc.
not to dismiss what happened here with the music, but it's... common.
Maybe if it were being used in a context more similar to where the original piece came from it would be inappropriate, like if it were used for some video game about ancient Chinese warlords and whatnot.
That said, I think they're handling of it was extremely poor, and if they're trying to "cover up" that they lifted the music than shame on them, the least they could do is let other people know said game exists since I'd never heard of it.
twitch.tv/tehsloth
aye, I'm mostly referring your quoting Gilmore there. well that and you could have just as easily and quietly informed capcom's massive legal department of what you found and probably gotten a more definite answer than any of us around the internet water cooler could provide. what exactly did the thread say about their theme song anyway?
when it comes to music, plagiarism really only becomes a factor depending on the relevancy of the source material. but even then music in and of itself exists in a cycle of "plagiarism". even classical stuff. it's just how it goes. some people's definition of "sampling" is a little more broader than others?
Fuck that guy.
I hope this is a joke, because if this isn't this might be the single dumbest post I've ever read of all time
I've seen crude copies of Threadless shirts at Wal-Mart stores. Fucking low, specially since Threadless isn't a huge company, and these are pretty much independent designs.
I reported them instantly.
It has a pretty long history too...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOnhM9I7kCs
Well, they can be the judge of that.
Twitter
I believe Robin Williams had done the same thing to a lot of other comedians early in his career. I also recently saw a popular comedian steal a joke from Jeff Foxworthy. Can't remember his name for the life of me though.
I normally never re-quote on the basis that it may do more harm than good...
However, the forum seems to unanimously agree; That you sir, are a fucking idiot for such a post. And I have no problem being the forums spokesperson.
Remind me to swing by your house and rip your console of choice out of your tv set. If your neighbours share your attitude I'll get away with it no problem - "snitches are bitches" after all.
As far as I'm concerned, there's no difference between physical and intellectual property, Theft is theft.
You do realize that the image you posted has nothing to do with the article you quoted right? They represent very different things. While Duchamp used the Mona Lisa because everyone knows what the Mona Lisa is, Fairey is using seemingly random, unknown pieces of art and trying to pass them as his own with little to no modification.
The same can be said about the examples in that Wikipedia article. The reason why it's called Appropriation Art in the first place, is because artists only use recognizable pieces of work. When you use unknown art and give no credit, then that's just blatant theft.
Are you five years old?
To delete a thread like the OP created just screams, "yes, we know we stole this song, but we don't want anyone else to know we did".
Seriously, just admit it and go from there.
That said, I never heard of this unforgotten thing, and now my only impression is they are thieves.
I can't reconcile someone needing to steal jokes from Jeff Foxworthy, and also being a popular comedian. Does not compute.
I'm sure I heard that Robin Williams never intentionally stole a joke and would always write people a cheque and apologies profusely whenever he was called out on it.
Wasn't there a thing a while back about Dane Cook stealing jokes? Not that he deserved a ton of respect in the first place.