Interrupts go immediately before the triggering action, Reactions occur after. I'm 85% sure that if the PCs in the example are no longer in the burst after the Immediate Interrupt, then the attack is invalidated and expended.
My player wants to move through an enemy's square in order to get to a square on the other side. The enemy is small. Is this impossible? Or is it possible for him to do this, only it will just trigger an OA?
Man I owe you guys a beer! Mage knights looks perfect, I am gonna buy a bunch of boosters and see hiw they are. At 7 bucks for eight figures, I can get a good selection going.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
My player wants to move through an enemy's square in order to get to a square on the other side. The enemy is small. Is this impossible? Or is it possible for him to do this, only it will just trigger an OA?
Without the use of a specific power or an athletics check to jump over them, you can only move through an enemy's space if they are helpless or two size categories smaller than you. In the latter case the movement still provokes an OA.
It's both. You can move through a creatures space if it is two sizes smaller or larger than you are. Certain creatures can always move through your space or occupy yours as well, such as swarms.
A monster performs a Close burst 3 attack. Three PC's are caught in the burst. However, one of them has an immediate interrupt when he is attacked that pushes the monster 6 squares away.
Does that push invalidate any or all of the attacks made by that monster's burst attack, or do all the attacks resolve prior to the push?
Assuming they can legally push the creature all those squares and they move him far enough away the burst no longer includes any of them as targets, then the power is wasted and nothing happens. Interrupts basically can stop the attack entirely, while a reaction cannot.
My player wants to move through an enemy's square in order to get to a square on the other side. The enemy is small. Is this impossible? Or is it possible for him to do this, only it will just trigger an OA?
Without the use of a specific power or an athletics check to jump over them, you can only move through an enemy's space if they are helpless or two size categories smaller than you. In the latter case the movement still provokes an OA.
The DMG does suggest letting players use, in certain situations, Acrobatics or Athletics to manage it, using DCs at the DM's discretion.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
I wrote a little summary of how to update MM1 creatures elsewhere and decided to share it here.
Changes that affect all creatures from the first MM
1) Damage expressions are now different. See the latest errata document here. As a quicker rule of thumb, you can double the static damage of MM1 creatures or triple the static damage if they are brutes. MM3 made creatures hit far harder and also, in some cases more or less often.
Noting that in general, you don't need to change MM1 or MM2 or whatever creatures damage in heroic. They are relatively fine as they are and won't be too bad. The changes to damage expressions really kick in paragon tier (level 11) and above. You can leave most MM creatures in heroic tier alone for the most part damage wise.
2) Brutes gain +2 to attack. This was probably because their damage wasn't great and they never hit either, a pretty terrible combination. Noting that at low levels, I don't think the +2 bonus to attack is critical. Keeping brutes at +3 vs. AC at low levels is something I would even recommend, especially with how hard they hit.
3) Soliders lose -2 to attack. Probably to make them more in line with other monsters.
4) Controllers are now +3 vs. NADs instead of +4. This isn't consistently applied though as few controllers still have +4 vs. NADs, but in general it's now +3.
5) Artillery have +5 vs. AC and +3 vs. NADs, but their ranged and area powers you can decide to give them an additional +1 or +2 to accuracy.
6) Power Design:
Most MM3 creatures have far better power design than those in MM1. Sadly this isn't something that can have hard and fast rules to easily turn a flailing, incompetent MM1 brute into a tactically interesting and fun creature. In general, most MM3 creatures tend to have a trait of some sort, a melee basic attack and then some kind of triggered action as a general minimum. Minions in the original MM need the most help (see upgraded minion damage in DMG2). I recommend adding the odd power to some MM creatures, but don't go particularly crazy.
Personally when designing monsters now I try to avoid large amounts of immunities and resistances as well. Instead I prefer traits that trigger off different keywords, either penalizing the monster like the Fire Elemental being frozen in place by cold spells (can't use flickering flames, minor action shift) or enhancing it somehow (like making the creature move + make an attack). This isn't something you should do for every monster, but it's something to think about instead of giving a resistance.
Changes that Affect Elites specifically
1) Elites no longer gain bonuses to their defenses. I think it was their two highest (AC and one other) that got the bonus. So reduce their AC and one other defense (their highest usually) by 2.
2) Elites definitely need a solid double attack most of the time, some MM elites don't reliably attack twice a round so you need to address that.
Changes that Affect Solos specifically
1) The most notable change is that solos lose 20% of their total HP value after paragon. This is because their HP total ((level*8)+con) after paragon originally was multiplied by 5 to give them their final HP. This formulae changed to just being multiplied by 4, so effectively it results in 20% less HP.
2) Solos need to do around 50% more damage when they are bloodied. Usually either from a triggered action attack when bloodied, extra attacks, extra damage, an aura being activated or any number of other relevant things.
Note that with MM3 damage expressions being roughly ~40% more combined with this, that's a whopping 90% expected damage increase when bloodied over the original MM creatures. This indicates just how far behind in terms of the total maths these monsters actually are!
3) Like elites, solos take a -2 penalty on three of their defenses (instead of two for elites). So their AC and two highest NADs should be decreased by 2 (as they no longer get this defensive benefit).
In Summary
Hopefully this is useful for anyone who wants a relatively "all in one place" look at what the errata and MM3 has generally done with creatures. Upgrading solos especially from the original MM is a total pain, because they are very far behind in "design" in powers, HP, defenses and many other aspects, which is a shame. In general with only a few simple adjustments, many MM creatures can be perfectly fine and will play pretty well - if you're willing to just put in a bit of time to upgrade them.
Does anyone know where to find the quick combat rules? One of my players that is a DM in another game said that there are rules to decrease combat time by modifying monster stats. Help?
Does anyone know where to find the quick combat rules? One of my players that is a DM in another game said that there are rules to decrease combat time by modifying monster stats. Help?
I find using monsters that are level+10 usually makes for a pretty quick combat.
(sorry, long day at work, trying to keep my sanity)
Does anyone know where to find the quick combat rules? One of my players that is a DM in another game said that there are rules to decrease combat time by modifying monster stats. Help?
I think it was something simple like double the monster's damage and half their hit points.
Does anyone know where to find the quick combat rules? One of my players that is a DM in another game said that there are rules to decrease combat time by modifying monster stats. Help?
I think it was something simple like double the monster's damage and half their hit points.
Oooh. That sounds....dangerous. I think I like it.
So, I'm going to be running a PbP game soon and I was wondering what the general rule of thumb for handling immediate interrupts were? Especially ones involving movement (some monsters have one that are like "when an enemy moves adjacent as an immediate interrupt they can shift one square) as this could put someone out of range or remove flanking. Obviously I can't stop the game every time someone moves adjacent to the enemy to see if they shift as it would destroy the flow of the game, but I don't want to gimp the monsters either.
Well, a monster (or PC, for that matter), only gets one immediate action per round. Would that knowledge help you out?
I do indeed know this. But, when I ran the encounters in person say, every time the PC would get close enough to trigger the interrupt I'd think "Hm, is this the moment I want it to use it? Or will it be better to use it later in the round." But obviously that won't work on a PbP.
Hehe, if the dude could do immediate interrupts more than once per round a PC could never get into melee with the monster.
So, I'm going to be running a PbP game soon and I was wondering what the general rule of thumb for handling immediate interrupts were? Especially ones involving movement (some monsters have one that are like "when an enemy moves adjacent as an immediate interrupt they can shift one square) as this could put someone out of range or remove flanking. Obviously I can't stop the game every time someone moves adjacent to the enemy to see if they shift as it would destroy the flow of the game, but I don't want to gimp the monsters either.
So for my idea of having a game session journal that gives in-game bonuses is coming along. I bought a normal hardcover plain journal at the store and then covered it in faux-leather vinyl. I created a seal out of wood and metallic silver paint pens and glued it on the front. A little bit of aging with some shoe polish and poof, ancient-looking tome with a bard-style family crest on the front. I divided up the inside into sections using some calligraphy and india inks. There is Stories, Personae, Localities and Chronicles, acting as a quest log, NPC log, places log and game session journal, respectively. Now to hand it out next session when the party finds a dusty, worn book hidden in the dungeon!
So, I'm going to be running a PbP game soon and I was wondering what the general rule of thumb for handling immediate interrupts were? Especially ones involving movement (some monsters have one that are like "when an enemy moves adjacent as an immediate interrupt they can shift one square) as this could put someone out of range or remove flanking. Obviously I can't stop the game every time someone moves adjacent to the enemy to see if they shift as it would destroy the flow of the game, but I don't want to gimp the monsters either.
you just retcon it. part of the charm of PbP
I agree with this. It's sort of necessary.
You can try to design your adventures to minimise then number of things that occur during players turn such as replacing triggered traps with monster activated ones. But overall you won't be able to remove all immediate interrupts, so you'll have to get used to retcon'ing things. Keep in mind your players will also be doing this to you with their own immediate interrupt powers.
Sometimes however you can let the players know ahead of time such as with the "Tail Strike" power of a red dragon by saying "The dragon will use tail strike on the first player to flank it each round." That way your players can use the power for you.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited July 2010
So on a cursory reading:
Vor Rukoth is very good. Excellent poster map, which can have about ten billion different uses and I'm already thinking about using. Good adventure ideas and general description as well. Not so many crunchy bits for me though.
Orcs of Sourfang Pass is a linearish dungeon crawl, but short enough and neat enough that it's pretty easy to fit in anywhere. It's actually how they should always do this sort of thing: Not too long as the original HPE series that really gets stale very quickly. It has one of 4Es most hilarious monsters, giant archerfish as well.
Finally, Tomb of Horrors is terrific. I have been reading some of the encounters and these are pretty good and imaginative. It does get into a bit of a drag with big dungeons though, but I think that is to be expected given the subject material. It is an absolute treasure trove of excellent traps for any 4E game - as they have managed to resist the temptation to "lethal" absolutely everything up the wazoo for no reason. As a result this has tons of excellent and awesome trap ideas for use in any campaign. There are more than a few I'm going to be taking for my three ongoing campaigns. Unfortunately, I just know this isn't going to be something I'm ever actually going to run as is, but the fact the encounters and traps are so damn pinchable makes up for this. A+ Wizards.
Demonomicon is absolutely fantastic. I've read this in depth and it's inspired every single demon related thing I've done or wrote - particularly in Sorrow of Heaven and Marauders of the Astral Sea (Both have quite the demonic presence). I also have this big urge to run a campaign a bit like Lexx (if you've ever seen it) with Clockwork horrors replacing the evil galaxy consuming robotic arms.
Aegeri do you really buy every single 4E book made?
And glad to hear it about Vor Rukoth and Demonomicon. I think I might pick up both. Just grabbed MM3 and planning to get the Dark Sun stuff here in the next few weeks as well.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Aegeri do you really buy every single 4E book made?
And glad to hear it about Vor Rukoth and Demonomicon. I think I might pick up both. Just grabbed MM3 and planning to get the Dark Sun stuff here in the next few weeks as well.
Mostly, it's easier to list what I don't have than what I do have:
Dragon Annual
Dungeon Annual
Hammerfast (but I am buying this in September, it just sort of fell off my radar).
I own everything else though. Mostly for completeness and for the benefit of my IRL group to look through so they can see what options are there. DDI is one thing, but being able to look through a book, read the fluff and descriptions/pictures helps peoples imaginations just as much. Things that are lacking when just looking at a huge list of feats in the CB.
Finally, Tomb of Horrors is terrific. I have been reading some of the encounters and these are pretty good and imaginative. It does get into a bit of a drag with big dungeons though, but I think that is to be expected given the subject material. It is an absolute treasure trove of excellent traps for any 4E game - as they have managed to resist the temptation to "lethal" absolutely everything up the wazoo for no reason. As a result this has tons of excellent and awesome trap ideas for use in any campaign. There are more than a few I'm going to be taking for my three ongoing campaigns. Unfortunately, I just know this isn't going to be something I'm ever actually going to run as is, but the fact the encounters and traps are so damn pinchable makes up for this. A+ Wizards.
Seconded. This is a great book. I still think Wizards kind of misses the point with their own skill challenges half the time. I guess without getting too spoilery, the Tower of Test (encounter M2) feels like it would be a long time of PCs just rolling the same skills 30 times until they survive or die.
I think I'm going to try and insert it as-is into my Dark Sun game. Gotta reflavor some things though.
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IT'S A SAD THING THAT YOUR ADVENTURES HAVE ENDED HERE!!
Demonomicon is absolutely fantastic. I've read this in depth and it's inspired every single demon related thing I've done or wrote - particularly in Sorrow of Heaven and Marauders of the Astral Sea (Both have quite the demonic presence). I also have this big urge to run a campaign a bit like Lexx (if you've ever seen it) with Clockwork horrors replacing the evil galaxy consuming robotic arms.
I should have this by this time tomorrow. Looking forward to it a lot.
I want to play a Tiefling Archer Ranger who uses Secrets of Belial to get utility powers he absolutely should never be allowed to have, like at-will or unlimited flight.
Posts
http://lexiconmegatherium.tumblr.com/
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
My player wants to move through an enemy's square in order to get to a square on the other side. The enemy is small. Is this impossible? Or is it possible for him to do this, only it will just trigger an OA?
Without the use of a specific power or an athletics check to jump over them, you can only move through an enemy's space if they are helpless or two size categories smaller than you. In the latter case the movement still provokes an OA.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
It's both. You can move through a creatures space if it is two sizes smaller or larger than you are. Certain creatures can always move through your space or occupy yours as well, such as swarms.
Assuming they can legally push the creature all those squares and they move him far enough away the burst no longer includes any of them as targets, then the power is wasted and nothing happens. Interrupts basically can stop the attack entirely, while a reaction cannot.
The DMG does suggest letting players use, in certain situations, Acrobatics or Athletics to manage it, using DCs at the DM's discretion.
1) Damage expressions are now different. See the latest errata document here. As a quicker rule of thumb, you can double the static damage of MM1 creatures or triple the static damage if they are brutes. MM3 made creatures hit far harder and also, in some cases more or less often.
Noting that in general, you don't need to change MM1 or MM2 or whatever creatures damage in heroic. They are relatively fine as they are and won't be too bad. The changes to damage expressions really kick in paragon tier (level 11) and above. You can leave most MM creatures in heroic tier alone for the most part damage wise.
2) Brutes gain +2 to attack. This was probably because their damage wasn't great and they never hit either, a pretty terrible combination. Noting that at low levels, I don't think the +2 bonus to attack is critical. Keeping brutes at +3 vs. AC at low levels is something I would even recommend, especially with how hard they hit.
3) Soliders lose -2 to attack. Probably to make them more in line with other monsters.
4) Controllers are now +3 vs. NADs instead of +4. This isn't consistently applied though as few controllers still have +4 vs. NADs, but in general it's now +3.
5) Artillery have +5 vs. AC and +3 vs. NADs, but their ranged and area powers you can decide to give them an additional +1 or +2 to accuracy.
6) Power Design:
Most MM3 creatures have far better power design than those in MM1. Sadly this isn't something that can have hard and fast rules to easily turn a flailing, incompetent MM1 brute into a tactically interesting and fun creature. In general, most MM3 creatures tend to have a trait of some sort, a melee basic attack and then some kind of triggered action as a general minimum. Minions in the original MM need the most help (see upgraded minion damage in DMG2). I recommend adding the odd power to some MM creatures, but don't go particularly crazy.
Personally when designing monsters now I try to avoid large amounts of immunities and resistances as well. Instead I prefer traits that trigger off different keywords, either penalizing the monster like the Fire Elemental being frozen in place by cold spells (can't use flickering flames, minor action shift) or enhancing it somehow (like making the creature move + make an attack). This isn't something you should do for every monster, but it's something to think about instead of giving a resistance.
1) Elites no longer gain bonuses to their defenses. I think it was their two highest (AC and one other) that got the bonus. So reduce their AC and one other defense (their highest usually) by 2.
2) Elites definitely need a solid double attack most of the time, some MM elites don't reliably attack twice a round so you need to address that.
1) The most notable change is that solos lose 20% of their total HP value after paragon. This is because their HP total ((level*8)+con) after paragon originally was multiplied by 5 to give them their final HP. This formulae changed to just being multiplied by 4, so effectively it results in 20% less HP.
2) Solos need to do around 50% more damage when they are bloodied. Usually either from a triggered action attack when bloodied, extra attacks, extra damage, an aura being activated or any number of other relevant things.
Note that with MM3 damage expressions being roughly ~40% more combined with this, that's a whopping 90% expected damage increase when bloodied over the original MM creatures. This indicates just how far behind in terms of the total maths these monsters actually are!
3) Like elites, solos take a -2 penalty on three of their defenses (instead of two for elites). So their AC and two highest NADs should be decreased by 2 (as they no longer get this defensive benefit).
Hopefully this is useful for anyone who wants a relatively "all in one place" look at what the errata and MM3 has generally done with creatures. Upgrading solos especially from the original MM is a total pain, because they are very far behind in "design" in powers, HP, defenses and many other aspects, which is a shame. In general with only a few simple adjustments, many MM creatures can be perfectly fine and will play pretty well - if you're willing to just put in a bit of time to upgrade them.
GM: Rusty Chains (DH Ongoing)
It applies to all your saves, your AC, your skill checks... pretty much everything.
If you look at a Character Sheet, you'll see a "1/2 Level" box on pretty much all your modifiers.
Edit: Unless you're talking about something else, which I think is possible :P
I am pretty sure that the "add half your level, rounded down" rule applies to all d20 rolls except for Saving Throws. Is there something I'm missing?
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Zithra Melitch in Star Wars: An Empire's End
Jellica in In the Shadow of Zeus
I find using monsters that are level+10 usually makes for a pretty quick combat.
(sorry, long day at work, trying to keep my sanity)
offhand you could always speed up combat by lower the HP of monsters, their defenses, or use more minions... ?
I think it was something simple like double the monster's damage and half their hit points.
www.familiar-ground.com
Epic Fantasy Comedy. Familiar Point of View.
Oooh. That sounds....dangerous. I think I like it.
Zithra Melitch in Star Wars: An Empire's End
Jellica in In the Shadow of Zeus
I do indeed know this. But, when I ran the encounters in person say, every time the PC would get close enough to trigger the interrupt I'd think "Hm, is this the moment I want it to use it? Or will it be better to use it later in the round." But obviously that won't work on a PbP.
Hehe, if the dude could do immediate interrupts more than once per round a PC could never get into melee with the monster.
you just retcon it. part of the charm of PbP
I agree with this. It's sort of necessary.
You can try to design your adventures to minimise then number of things that occur during players turn such as replacing triggered traps with monster activated ones. But overall you won't be able to remove all immediate interrupts, so you'll have to get used to retcon'ing things. Keep in mind your players will also be doing this to you with their own immediate interrupt powers.
Sometimes however you can let the players know ahead of time such as with the "Tail Strike" power of a red dragon by saying "The dragon will use tail strike on the first player to flank it each round." That way your players can use the power for you.
Vor Rukoth is very good. Excellent poster map, which can have about ten billion different uses and I'm already thinking about using. Good adventure ideas and general description as well. Not so many crunchy bits for me though.
Orcs of Sourfang Pass is a linearish dungeon crawl, but short enough and neat enough that it's pretty easy to fit in anywhere. It's actually how they should always do this sort of thing: Not too long as the original HPE series that really gets stale very quickly. It has one of 4Es most hilarious monsters, giant archerfish as well.
Finally, Tomb of Horrors is terrific. I have been reading some of the encounters and these are pretty good and imaginative. It does get into a bit of a drag with big dungeons though, but I think that is to be expected given the subject material. It is an absolute treasure trove of excellent traps for any 4E game - as they have managed to resist the temptation to "lethal" absolutely everything up the wazoo for no reason. As a result this has tons of excellent and awesome trap ideas for use in any campaign. There are more than a few I'm going to be taking for my three ongoing campaigns. Unfortunately, I just know this isn't going to be something I'm ever actually going to run as is, but the fact the encounters and traps are so damn pinchable makes up for this. A+ Wizards.
Demonomicon is absolutely fantastic. I've read this in depth and it's inspired every single demon related thing I've done or wrote - particularly in Sorrow of Heaven and Marauders of the Astral Sea (Both have quite the demonic presence). I also have this big urge to run a campaign a bit like Lexx (if you've ever seen it) with Clockwork horrors replacing the evil galaxy consuming robotic arms.
And glad to hear it about Vor Rukoth and Demonomicon. I think I might pick up both. Just grabbed MM3 and planning to get the Dark Sun stuff here in the next few weeks as well.
Mostly, it's easier to list what I don't have than what I do have:
Dragon Annual
Dungeon Annual
Hammerfast (but I am buying this in September, it just sort of fell off my radar).
I own everything else though. Mostly for completeness and for the benefit of my IRL group to look through so they can see what options are there. DDI is one thing, but being able to look through a book, read the fluff and descriptions/pictures helps peoples imaginations just as much. Things that are lacking when just looking at a huge list of feats in the CB.
I think I'm going to try and insert it as-is into my Dark Sun game. Gotta reflavor some things though.
I should have this by this time tomorrow. Looking forward to it a lot.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Uhmm... I so apologize.
Valorous Bard: Battlemind, Warlock.
Cunning Bard: Wizard, Swordmage, Psion.
Prescient Bard: ...anything wisdom based, with no riders of note?
Charismadin powers would go with any of them, but best with the Valorbard due to being in melee, I guess.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
I've had this curious feeling that a Ranged Paladin would be pretty interesting. Dunno how effective it would be in real combat though.
probably swordmage? Tiefling Bard/Swordmage should be decent. Good cha & int. Obviously the cha has little benefit to swordmage.