So on a completely different topic, last night was my first Battle For Badlands and it was ridiculously fun.
It was t3 night and order started off with over 100 people assaulting Passwatch. Our designated warboss never showed up, one warband had no one in vent, and another's captain crashed on the start of the event. At the same time, order had a 50 man group assault thickmuck and just demolished us at both. With a 10-0 lead, we thought we were going to be screwed for the night.
The replacement warboss started organizing everything as best as he could do, and things finally started to get together. Destro had some awesome defenses at GB and Ghronds. The best part of Ghronds was as we started the push out from the inner keep. Order seemed in full retreat so we got the command to charge. It turned out they had simply fell back and hid right along the outer walls. We got demolished in the trap.
Thankfully we held them again at the inner and got the defense.
The night ended with a 10 point victory for destruction after order started to log once they got frustrated. I had a complete blast helping order things around from vent. It was just kind of annoying that the warband I was in got labeled as the quickest responders, so it was up to us to do almost all the scouting and door prep for the night. Not many dticks for us there :P
How do you get involved with this kind of stuff? Is there a guild, or is this all just pickup off the cuff type stuff?
"Good" DPS healers are great to have around (On Iron Rock - when I played - I would have said Patriotic, Blemish, Adesa), and are especially great to have in a tight premade for back-up rezzing and melee pain trains (think my favorite non-<BAD> group was Patriotic (dps WP), Fonda (IB), Gravytrain (the best Engy to ever play WAR), Seladorian (BW), Nordain (WP), Me (scrub Archmage) - Gravy pulls plus morale 2, Sela mops up, Fonda and Pat go beat on stuff).
My experiences with grouping dps Archmages were largely negative. We had a dps AM in <BAD> for awhile, but we eventually kicked him out - Xuil didn't understand how to do things like toss down a timely Mistress of the Marsh, or to back-up rez if Balonga (WP) or I (AM) went down. If you have to tell a dps AM to drop their AoE lifetap near the spot that the engineer pulls to, that person is generally a lost cause. :P
This thread sometimes makes me want to reactivate and CSR-rez my deleted toon, but I don't think that anyone I played with is left (maybe Fonda, he'll probably play until the game shuts down). I wish MMOs didn't take up so much time.
Edit: TLDR - In high end gameplay, the margin of error for dps healers is very thin (though it can be papered over somewhat by group members, depending on opponents - however, opposing groups will learn over time, very quickly, that a poorly played dps healer can either be a) dropped quickly or b) ignored, essentially making it a 5 vs 6 (or 5 vs whatever).)
why hello there arch mage. fonda and scruffles still play regularly. gravy is somewhere, either on volkmar or on iron rock, but i'm pretty sure he lost his engineer or something. tripts and haduis still play as well. tripts on a SH and haduis on a sorc with delita and company. all of us still hang out in the IR irc channel (with the exception of tripts and haduis).
Maybe I'll hop into IRC one of these days to see what's what.
How do you get involved with this kind of stuff? Is there a guild, or is this all just pickup off the cuff type stuff?
Completely pick up, outside of the leaders. Guilds can volunteer to run warbands and stuff, but you'll see information spammed in advice, realm war, or region a couple days ahead of the event.
It runs every Tuesday 9-midnight est alternating t2 and t3. Vent info is normally spammed night of along with what warbands you can join.
I'm pretty excited for t2 next week with my SH instead.
So on a completely different topic, last night was my first Battle For Badlands and it was ridiculously fun.
It was t3 night and order started off with over 100 people assaulting Passwatch. Our designated warboss never showed up, one warband had no one in vent, and another's captain crashed on the start of the event. At the same time, order had a 50 man group assault thickmuck and just demolished us at both. With a 10-0 lead, we thought we were going to be screwed for the night.
The replacement warboss started organizing everything as best as he could do, and things finally started to get together. Destro had some awesome defenses at GB and Ghronds. The best part of Ghronds was as we started the push out from the inner keep. Order seemed in full retreat so we got the command to charge. It turned out they had simply fell back and hid right along the outer walls. We got demolished in the trap.
Thankfully we held them again at the inner and got the defense.
The night ended with a 10 point victory for destruction after order started to log once they got frustrated. I had a complete blast helping order things around from vent. It was just kind of annoying that the warband I was in got labeled as the quickest responders, so it was up to us to do almost all the scouting and door prep for the night. Not many dticks for us there :P
How do you get involved with this kind of stuff? Is there a guild, or is this all just pickup off the cuff type stuff?
There's a couple of guilds that kinda promote it, like the one I'm in. It's loads of fun. Bad news though we never get any points for having actually done anything useful for BB even though we end up claiming the keeps and defending them.
That's a nice post which betrays a complete lack of understanding of how much benefit a competent dps healer brings to those around him.
You are basically raging about people who don't know how to play a dps healer properly, rather than anything to do with the spec.
Not enough to justify the loss of either a pure DPS, or a pure healer in a 6 man. In a WB as long as all your healer spots are covered do whatever you want until either a group needs some help healing, or some reses. I've seen about 3 competent DPS healers in my entire time on IR, all high RR in the best gear, and all pretty much played it like a solo spec. They were damn good at it. They also knew when it was time to hit the trainer.
The reality is that there are a lot of people who are not good at it, the damage output is not huge enough to warrant the loss of a healer in an already healer starved environment. Ranting about how you can spec however you want to a dead Warband does not elicit any sympathy.
Detharin on
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
Riddle me this, WAR thread.
Am I being dumb for playing a 2H Swordmaster past tier 2?
Ether dance is fun and all, but my damage has been pretty bad against even the squishiest of high-RR enemies, with survivability to match.
That's a nice post which betrays a complete lack of understanding of how much benefit a competent dps healer brings to those around him.
You are basically raging about people who don't know how to play a dps healer properly, rather than anything to do with the spec.
Not enough to justify the loss of either a pure DPS, or a pure healer in a 6 man. In a WB as long as all your healer spots are covered do whatever you want until either a group needs some help healing, or some reses. I've seen about 3 competent DPS healers in my entire time on IR, all high RR in the best gear, and all pretty much played it like a solo spec. They were damn good at it. They also knew when it was time to hit the trainer.
The reality is that there are a lot of people who are not good at it, the damage output is not huge enough to warrant the loss of a healer in an already healer starved environment. Ranting about how you can spec however you want to a dead Warband does not elicit any sympathy.
The reality is that there are a lot of people who are not good at it, and this has skewed your perceptions of what the class can do. The rest of your arguments about low dps or low healing are completely flawed, as you have very little experience with competent dps healers on your own admission. In other words, you do not have enough information to make the statements you are making about their utility.
I've rolled with and been on the opposing side of people who are good. They're omgbbqhax.
There is a dok, a pure dps dok, on Badlands, that I openly fear. I hate this dok. I do not ignore this dok, because I can't. I can't kill him either. He walks into a scenario as part of his premade and he walks out with two or three times the damage of anybody else, dps or not. There was a scoreboard I wish I'd screenshotted now, where he was at around 179k dps with about 7k healing and sitting on a giant pile of db. He cuts straight through our healing by himself. Our healers are fantastic. So you need to explain how he can do this considering that his dps is supposedly not that good. Cos he's making your arguments look pretttty flimsy.
There's a melee wp in our alliance that nobody would ask to do anything but his melee spec, because he's damn good at it and that would be really stupid. When he's in there I know I'm safe and content in the arms of aoe healing off the guy he's whacking supporting the healing from our backline healers. I'm glad he's there and we all openly defend him if anybody gets uppity at him thinking they know everything about a class they do not play and do not know the potential of.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
The reality is that there are a lot of people who are not good at it, and this has skewed your perceptions of what the class can do. The rest of your arguments about low dps or low healing are completely flawed, as you have very little experience with competent dps healers on your own admission. In other words, you do not have enough information to make the statements you are making about their utility.
I've rolled with and been on the opposing side of people who are good. They're omgbbqhax.
Melee healers are fine at small scale combat, what is the one thing that is always overpowered in any MMO? Melee healers. No game can every truly balance them. However I could care less about 6v6, of 12v12. My love is for 24v50+. I like rolling into 2,3 hell even 4 to one odds and walking out victorious.
There is a dok, a pure dps dok, on Badlands, that I openly fear. I hate this dok. I do not ignore this dok, because I can't. I can't kill him either. He walks into a scenario as part of his premade and he walks out with two or three times the damage of anybody else, dps or not. There was a scoreboard I wish I'd screenshotted now, where he was at around 179k dps with about 7k healing and sitting on a giant pile of db. He cuts straight through our healing by himself. Our healers are fantastic. So you need to explain how he can do this considering that his dps is supposedly not that good. Cos he's making your arguments look pretttty flimsy.
DPS dok with great support train pulls decent numbers. Why? They have high survivability. If they are soloing anyone down I would definitely be questioning the competence of your healers. If he is "cutting straight through our healing by himself" then frankly it sounds like your healers are suffering from a class familiarity issue.
That or, as I have mentioned previously, you are so out geared and outclassed that their specs do not matter. He can get high numbers because he can stay in there, and not die. Both because he has good support, and because you are unable to challenge them to the point it matters.
There's a melee wp in our alliance that nobody would ask to do anything but his melee spec, because he's damn good at it and that would be really stupid. When he's in there I know I'm safe and content in the arms of aoe healing off the guy he's whacking supporting the healing from our backline healers. I'm glad he's there and we all openly defend him if anybody gets uppity at him thinking they know everything about a class they do not play and do not know the potential of.
Until that Dok shows up and starts tearing through your healers by himself. The problem is we are playing two different games. In my game there is no one who outgears, or out levels me. Most of the people I play with are RR70+ for organized small scale fights. We die when we get massively outnumbered, or get hit with a team that is just better than us. When we lose it is completely on us. Did we die because they focused better? Did we have the wrong target priority? Was there a problem with our healing? Did we lose because they had a better group combination? Even spec can come into the debate.
The problem is that you are taking a skilled, high level, well geared dps spec healer with support, and judging his performance against inferior opponents. They are sufficiently better than you to the point that you never pushed their healing to the point of "enough" and as such it did not matter what the DPS DoK was doing. Moreover their DPS had already pushed your healers past the point of enough. Which is the entire point of my post.
Small cracks become large fractures the more pressure you put on them, you were unable to apply any pressure to that DoK. The question becomes can he hack it when he hits a group as geared, and as skill as his. So far I can think of about 3 doks on IR who are up to the challenge. For everyone else they are just dragging their group down, and making excuses all the way to the bottom.
Detharin on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
Everybody but me is high rr in our group. Our main dpser is 70+. The healers are all 68+. One of them has an 80 healer on IR, the other has high rr shaman, not sure if 80 or not. Their "class familiarity" is beyond question. In terms of throwing doubt on my group in order to prove your point, you cannot. They're all well respected and play extremely well. Say what you like about me, but you can't say shit about them.
You can't take that route out of it. Here is a dok you cannot get around by claiming he's fighting completely inferior opponents. 179k damage is mdps damage. Period. He's doing mdps damage as a healer. He has a role. Dps. You really think someone is going to turn around and tell someone doing solid damage like that "no you can't come?". You are crazy if you believe that.
Perhaps you haven't seen everything the game has to throw at you. Maybe you don't know everything about dps healers like you think. You do, after all, play a tank. Not a dps healer.
I'd be taking you a lot more seriously if you had a dok. Right now as far as I'm concerned you are suffering from a bad case of confirmation bias, which you seem to get from time to time.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Wife and I picked this back up and rolled a new DoK and Squig Herder on Badlands. I completely forgot we both got CEs and a strategy guide/atlas apiece back at launch. My mailbox overfloweth!
So...what do I do with this Shiny New 'ead? Are Dye merchants gone, or just moved?
We thought about firing up migrated characters, but we only made it to like lvl 22 after launch anyway. It'd feel like stepping into someone else's shoes.
Everybody but me is high rr in our group. Our main dpser is 70+. The healers are all 68+. One of them has an 80 healer on IR, the other has high rr shaman, not sure if 80 or not. Their "class familiarity" is beyond question. In terms of throwing doubt on my group in order to prove your point, you cannot. They're all well respected and play extremely well. Say what you like about me, but you can't say shit about them.
You can't take that route out of it. Here is a dok you cannot get around by claiming he's fighting completely inferior opponents. 179k damage is mdps damage. Period. He's doing mdps damage as a healer. He has a role. Dps. You really think someone is going to turn around and tell someone doing solid damage like that "no you can't come?". You are crazy if you believe that.
Perhaps you haven't seen everything the game has to throw at you. Maybe you don't know everything about dps healers like you think. You do, after all, play a tank. Not a dps healer.
I'd be taking you a lot more seriously if you had a dok. Right now as far as I'm concerned you are suffering from a bad case of confirmation bias, which you seem to get from time to time.
If they are getting ripped down by a Dok, solo, while getting heals I am going to have to go with there is something definitely wrong with them. If the Dok is part of a competent melee train then that is a completely different story, but that is not your story. Your story is group getting heals gets torn apart by solo dok. Second you can throw out "hey this guy scored 179k damage in a scen!" I am more interested in the death blows, I am more interested in the MDPS with him, I am more interested in the targets he is wailing on. I judge a bad scenario based on how close i get to the top of the damage meters.
When a competent DPS train gets going shit dies. It does not live long enough to get enough heals. Which means each person dumb enough to leave spawn is only worth about 6-8k on the damage meters.
None of this really matters because your argument basically says "DPS healers can output decent numbers at high renown ranks with some of the best gear in the game." Which does absolutely nothing to counter my point of "The only thing that matters when it comes to healing is if your group has enough to win. If you have enough then no one cares how much DPS your are doing. If you do not have enough people are going to wonder why the hell you didn't stop beating on that tank and pick up the slack."
A tank cannot suddenly heal the group, best we can do is focus on hot swapping guard to buy the healers some time. MDPS/RDPS cannot suddenly start spamming group heal. That DOK over there sure as hell can.
When someone asks "Why is everyone telling me to learn to play because my low RR DPS healer in greens and maybe annihilator is running around beating on things while everything dies around me"? The answer is not "They are wrong, you just go on playing like you are playing!" The answer is "Look, you are low RR in bad gear running pugs. Pretty much you have every handicap against you. Now you can either be really bad at DPS, or decent at heals. If you are decent at heals people will want to group with you, to help you get gear. Your groups will be more likely to succeed in scenarios. Everyone you meet knows this, and when they see you charge up and start wailing on shit of course they are going to think you are a worthless healer. Because you are. They are not going to want to group with you. They are going to make fun of you. Why? Because you rolled a class that has THE single most important job that no one else can do. Instead of doing it, you are doing their job, badly, and watching them die horribly."
There are damn good DPS healers out there. They are high renown rank, in damn good gear. Very similar to DPS tanks. Frankly if there is a need for a roll you can fill, and you refuse to respec to fill that roll, do not be surprised if the people do not want to deal with you. If there is no pressing need for healers, and you have the gear/renown/skill to be DPS then go for it.
Yeah so I'm working on a sorc build, talk to me what's most important for them.
Pay a DoK to follow you around and heal your self damage?
starmanbrand on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
The melee dok cannot start spamming group heal, because his heals will hit like a level 30. You need to go read up on how doks actually work.
I'm done with this argument. You sure as hell wont be listening to reason anytime soon. If one thing arguing with you has taught me about you, it's you simply wont believe anything anybody else says until you experience it yourself. One of those "I'll believe it when I see it" types. Just as you bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched about tanks, until you got into high rr gear when it was suddenly not so bad. Now you tell me how awesome tanks are at taking healers out of a fight. What a nice turn around that is!
Quite frustrating to talk to really. So I'm done.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Wife and I picked this back up and rolled a new DoK and Squig Herder on Badlands. I completely forgot we both got CEs and a strategy guide/atlas apiece back at launch. My mailbox overfloweth!
So...what do I do with this Shiny New 'ead? Are Dye merchants gone, or just moved?
We thought about firing up migrated characters, but we only made it to like lvl 22 after launch anyway. It'd feel like stepping into someone else's shoes.
What are your names? I have at lest 1 or 2 toon in all tiers on Badlands. I wish I could get my wife to play as well.
Just about all the merchants have been moved to The Inevitable City, and have been taken out of all warcamps, except for T1.
The melee dok cannot start spamming group heal, because his heals will hit like a level 30. You need to go read up on how doks actually work.
Getting a anemic heal is much better than getting no heals. Or you can be part of the problem and just tell your group "Oh sorry guys my heals are shit so I couldn't be bothered to toss them out while you all died, but hey im first on the damage meter!"
I'm done with this argument. You sure as hell wont be listening to reason anytime soon. If one thing arguing with you has taught me about you, it's you simply wont believe anything anybody else says until you experience it yourself. One of those "I'll believe it when I see it" types. Just as you bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched about tanks, until you got into high rr gear when it was suddenly not so bad. Now you tell me how awesome tanks are at taking healers out of a fight. What a nice turn around that is!
I still bitch about damage outpacing mitigation. I sure as hell am not going to kill a healer on my tank gear, but I can juggle my CC a bit. That is a far cry from ceasing to complain about the core issues of this game.
I have seen it, I know GOOD dps healers. The problem is they are absolutely rare as hell, require high RR and high renown, and also understand that sometimes you are needed to be a pure healer. None of that has anything to do with my point which is why do people hate DPS healers? Because sometimes you desperately need heals and they would rather wipe and fail than heal and potentially win. It is pretty obviously to the dead people how useless you are being, of course they are not going to be happy with you.
Get out of combat, swap your gear, and do your damn archetypal job. If you wont heal your group mates when they need healing the most because you would rather pad your e-peen with imaginary numbers then do not be surprised when you get replaced by someone who will. People play this game to win. They do not play it to lose, repeatedly, because they are short on heals and the person who could heal does not want to because it is "boring".
Quite frustrating to talk to really. So I'm done.
If you have nothing to post, don't post. If you do not want to discuss something, don't discuss it. Do not get all huffy, post a little rant about how everyone is prejudiced against the people who are happy to watch them die, then brag about their numbers, take your ball and quietly go home.
Detharin on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
I will if I want. It's my ball.
Honestly? I'm really pissed at you for dissing the members of Schism. this is definitely coloring my reactions to you at this point. I'm not sure if I should talk to you until I calm down. I'm still angry about it.
Chalk it up to being overly loyal if you want. I'm calm enough to recognise it after some time has passed, but I'm not sure if I can keep talking to you about this and keep my cool. So lets just drop it now okay?
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
My favorite part about melee DoKs was always popping a pocket ablative / shield of saphery / ablative potion to completely cockblock their melee heal. And then having them bitch at me about it in IRC. Good times.
Honestly? I'm really pissed at you for dissing the members of Schism. this is definitely coloring my reactions to you at this point. I'm not sure if I should talk to you until I calm down. I'm still angry about it.
Chalk it up to being overly loyal if you want. I'm calm enough to recognise it after some time has passed, but I'm not sure if I can keep talking to you about this and keep my cool. So lets just drop it now okay?
Honestly? I'm really pissed at you for dissing the members of Schism. this is definitely coloring my reactions to you at this point. I'm not sure if I should talk to you until I calm down. I'm still angry about it.
Chalk it up to being overly loyal if you want. I'm calm enough to recognise it after some time has passed, but I'm not sure if I can keep talking to you about this and keep my cool. So lets just drop it now okay?
We're members of the Raven Host Alliance (Old Folks, Talk Nerdy to Me, etc.) on Iron Rock. In your defense, I didn't notice any dissing of Schism, myself.
I just hit 10 with my Witch Hunter and got Incognito. Having a blast so far, but I feel extremely squishy and hard to stay alive because I'm always focus fired by range as soon as they see me.
Any tips on what I should be doing? I assume stealthing behind the enemy and taking out a healer or two, then running back to my lines, rinse and repeat?
I just hit 10 with my Witch Hunter and got Incognito. Having a blast so far, but I feel extremely squishy and hard to stay alive because I'm always focus fired by range as soon as they see me.
Any tips on what I should be doing? I assume stealthing behind the enemy and taking out a healer or two, then running back to my lines, rinse and repeat?
Ha, foolish n00bx0r! Nah, see. That is what people think a rogueclass should do. But think about it. How are you going to kill a healer unless he is a level 1/2/3? You just don't have the damage or debuffs to take one out efficiently.
My strategy before I was strong enough to burn down a lone healer was to stealth and then pop on tanks/MDPS in the front line. Usually so much going on I only would get hit by Magus/Choppa aoe before I took them down. Burn armor, get behind or use positioning, and then spam the armor ignore on tanks or just dps the mdps.
At first you think "ugh I'm not killing healers, I'm not doinganything!" but once you realize how quickly a line falls after losing even one tank, you'll love it.
To anyone new to the game: Pay attention to your powers as you get them. Don't play the role you think you should play, but play the role your powers want you to play. At higher levels you can spec, but at lower levels? for example: a low level WH will have an armor pierce attack, bullets that decrease initiative, and the only out of stealth attack he has is one that damages the victim anytime they use a melee attack. At this point, the only thing you are built to do well is burn down tanks and mdps
I just hit 10 with my Witch Hunter and got Incognito. Having a blast so far, but I feel extremely squishy and hard to stay alive because I'm always focus fired by range as soon as they see me.
Any tips on what I should be doing? I assume stealthing behind the enemy and taking out a healer or two, then running back to my lines, rinse and repeat?
Ha, foolish n00bx0r! Nah, see. That is what people think a rogueclass should do. But think about it. How are you going to kill a healer unless he is a level 1/2/3? You just don't have the damage or debuffs to take one out efficiently.
My strategy before I was strong enough to burn down a lone healer was to stealth and then pop on tanks/MDPS in the front line. Usually so much going on I only would get hit by Magus/Choppa aoe before I took them down. Burn armor, get behind or use positioning, and then spam the armor ignore on tanks or just dps the mdps.
At first you think "ugh I'm not killing healers, I'm not doinganything!" but once you realize how quickly a line falls after losing even one tank, you'll love it.
To anyone new to the game: Pay attention to your powers as you get them. Don't play the role you think you should play, but play the role your powers want you to play. At higher levels you can spec, but at lower levels? for example: a low level WH will have an armor pierce attack, bullets that decrease initiative, and the only out of stealth attack he has is one that damages the victim anytime they use a melee attack. At this point, the only thing you are built to do well is burn down tanks and mdps
Thanks for the tips! I heard on some other forums that Fervor (the stackable DoT attack) isn't worth the energy. I think I'm going to change my rotation to Burn Armor -> Torment -> Absolution -> Torment Spam, with Absolutions thrown in there for kicks. At least until I get some better abilities.
For my money, I didn't like spamming executions. I always felt the payoff for a 5 was a little better, especially when I got burn heretic. Once I got the tactic that has a chance to give you two accusations every time you execute, though, I started spamming abso.
I know I asked this before but:
Where does everyone play? I'm Destro on Iron Rock and Order on Badlands, but if someone has an active group I'd be willing to move my characters around to play.
Thanks for the tips starman, helped a bunch. Choppas and Marauders dying to my backstabs like nothing.
Oh also, I play Order on Badlands. My Witch Hunter's name is Stunter, and my Rune Priest's name is Thurmigin. I'm level 10 and 8 respectively, though :P
I'd be glad to roll around with PA peoples whenever you're on.
Anyone have a magus that can give me a good spec? I got on my 32 (highest level char) magus today and just got ruined in t4 SCs (as to be expected). I was thinking of getting that mist ability in changing along with a couple of the tactics since Close Quarters got nerfed, but it seems like the only thing people want is a rifter.
starmanbrand on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Honestly? I'm really pissed at you for dissing the members of Schism. this is definitely coloring my reactions to you at this point. I'm not sure if I should talk to you until I calm down. I'm still angry about it.
Chalk it up to being overly loyal if you want. I'm calm enough to recognise it after some time has passed, but I'm not sure if I can keep talking to you about this and keep my cool. So lets just drop it now okay?
We're members of the Raven Host Alliance (Old Folks, Talk Nerdy to Me, etc.) on Iron Rock. In your defense, I didn't notice any dissing of Schism, myself.
Lemme explain. It was basically me getting angry at something he said.
I was just having the usual discussion o rama with Detharin. But this line:
it sounds like your healers are suffering from a class familiarity issue.
Made me see red. I realised later that after I read that I wasn't thinking straight anymore. Didn't actually realise how much it pissed me off until later.
Attacking the skill of the player is a standard mmo theory argument, a pretty shitty and lowbrow one in my opinion, but a perfectly valid one. I just don't think I can handle it when it's about my guild. I don't think I can be calm about that as it happens. I can in hindsight, but not when it happens in the middle of an argument.
I hope that makes it clearer.
Just to lay it out: I'm over it now. But I don't really want to talk about it anymore because I can't trust myself to be calm about it in the future. I don't hold anything against you Deth, you didn't know who my healers were. I'm just explaining why I went off the deep end there for a while. And why I don't really wanna continue.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Anyone have a magus that can give me a good spec? I got on my 32 (highest level char) magus today and just got ruined in t4 SCs (as to be expected). I was thinking of getting that mist ability in changing along with a couple of the tactics since Close Quarters got nerfed, but it seems like the only thing people want is a rifter.
Honestly all the magus trees are about equal in viability (which means they all kind of suck), but they can kind of work. It really depends on how you want to play.
I personally went changing until 40, but this was before the blanket aoe nerf when glean magic and pandemonium actually hit for a decent amount. My tactic was to just pop glean and pand on as many people as possible. throw down a dissolving mist on either the front line if it was mostly stationary or the back line if the front was moving around to much, then roll in and do an infernal blast, pop the roiling winds morale on someone in the middle of the group and lash spam. I could at the very least take 5 people down to 20% health. But now that tactic will get them to maybe 50%.
Maybe use something like this for ranged aoe dotting "pressure" build.
Or you could do something like this for single target, pretty much using surging violet fire as every other ability, just make sure you have your pink horror out for the elemental debuff, and keep withering soul on them. I picked demonic withering over the Intel tactic because the intel tactic will give you a 5% damage increase at most.
So it looks like I'm going to be able to finish all of the Wild Hunt achievements in time, and I wanted you guys' opinion. I'm level 11 right now, should I get the level 21 token or the level 11 token? I'm conflicted...
Woo, ghost! Glad to see another magi on here. I'm excited for the buffs they are talking about for Magi and Engi.
Hooooly crap. :!:
Amazing that they are actually going to fix the pets. Even after the 1.3.6 buffs I felt pretty useless (rr49) in T4, and told myself I wouldn't play my magus again till they fixed the pets, and it looks like that's going to be sooner than i thought (which was never, lol.) I will actually have to put Strengthen Thrall back on my toolbar, lol.
Are you on iron rock, or badlands or somewhere else starmanbrand?
MorningLord: No biggie, I can definitely understand.
As for the magus/engineer changes color me unimpressed. Oh look a static increase in damage for standing around one area. Hope you guess the right area to get setup. it just seems to me that rather than fixing the underlying problem (IE magus pets are boring, difficult to manage, and barely useful) they have just slapped a buff on them to encourage you to deal with the frustration of trying. Now magus pets are useful, but still clunky, still cost 55 ap to summon and 60 ap to resummon.
I guess my problem here is that Mythic is not really addressing what I perceive to be the underlying problem. Magus pets are not really fun or interesting. Moreover Magus are rather sub par in the damage department. As opposed to potentially doing something to make magus pets fun, and addressing magus damage, they have instead just slapped on a flat damage increase and called it a day.
While I wish they had had the pets give different effects than just a damage increase I think I will be happy with that. It's not a flat damage buff since it increases/decreases by 4% every 2 seconds up to 20%, and I'd say it's pretty comparable to the BW/sorc mechanic with the added bonus of being able to maintain it out of combat. With the full 20% buff after 10 seconds plus the 15% damage increase for withered soul, plus the 15% damage increase for being within 45 feet the class will be putting out either 150% damage or 158% depending on whether they are calculated multiplicatively or additively. Our crits only do 150% damage so that's basically makes it 100% crit chance. If you get a crit at that point you are looking at 200% or 225% damage which is BW/sorc territory. Even 300% or 325% damage on certain abilities if you also slot the tactic that increases crit damage by 50% on SVF, SP, and IB.
I think this will reinforce the originally intended role of area denial, as well as the damage over time aspect (of at least the magus, haven't really played engi too much.)
They did mention making tactics that would cause the pets to give other effects being a possibility, but I don't foresee that happening at the same time. I'd say if the distance you have to be from your pet to gain this buff is anything less than 30ft it will be retarded. I'd say 45ft would be a good distance to give the magus a decent sized area to move around in.
I have a range of destro chars on Iron Rock (32 magus being my highest, but not sure I'm liking playing as him. the CQ nerf really crippled him) and a range of order on Badlands (with a a group of three or so lvl 20ish characters, most recently a 23 wh).
I do quite a bit of schooling but could probably sneak in an hour here or there if someone tosses me a PM or a request in this thread for people to get on.
Nothing really. Besides the obvious idiot human being. And there's really wrong with a media outlet not knowing the difference between video games. That's pretty normal, they're ignorant.
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How do you get involved with this kind of stuff? Is there a guild, or is this all just pickup off the cuff type stuff?
Maybe I'll hop into IRC one of these days to see what's what.
Completely pick up, outside of the leaders. Guilds can volunteer to run warbands and stuff, but you'll see information spammed in advice, realm war, or region a couple days ahead of the event.
It runs every Tuesday 9-midnight est alternating t2 and t3. Vent info is normally spammed night of along with what warbands you can join.
I'm pretty excited for t2 next week with my SH instead.
There's a couple of guilds that kinda promote it, like the one I'm in. It's loads of fun. Bad news though we never get any points for having actually done anything useful for BB even though we end up claiming the keeps and defending them.
SC2: XxKhrushchev.539
Not enough to justify the loss of either a pure DPS, or a pure healer in a 6 man. In a WB as long as all your healer spots are covered do whatever you want until either a group needs some help healing, or some reses. I've seen about 3 competent DPS healers in my entire time on IR, all high RR in the best gear, and all pretty much played it like a solo spec. They were damn good at it. They also knew when it was time to hit the trainer.
The reality is that there are a lot of people who are not good at it, the damage output is not huge enough to warrant the loss of a healer in an already healer starved environment. Ranting about how you can spec however you want to a dead Warband does not elicit any sympathy.
Am I being dumb for playing a 2H Swordmaster past tier 2?
Ether dance is fun and all, but my damage has been pretty bad against even the squishiest of high-RR enemies, with survivability to match.
The reality is that there are a lot of people who are not good at it, and this has skewed your perceptions of what the class can do. The rest of your arguments about low dps or low healing are completely flawed, as you have very little experience with competent dps healers on your own admission. In other words, you do not have enough information to make the statements you are making about their utility.
I've rolled with and been on the opposing side of people who are good. They're omgbbqhax.
There is a dok, a pure dps dok, on Badlands, that I openly fear. I hate this dok. I do not ignore this dok, because I can't. I can't kill him either. He walks into a scenario as part of his premade and he walks out with two or three times the damage of anybody else, dps or not. There was a scoreboard I wish I'd screenshotted now, where he was at around 179k dps with about 7k healing and sitting on a giant pile of db. He cuts straight through our healing by himself. Our healers are fantastic. So you need to explain how he can do this considering that his dps is supposedly not that good. Cos he's making your arguments look pretttty flimsy.
There's a melee wp in our alliance that nobody would ask to do anything but his melee spec, because he's damn good at it and that would be really stupid. When he's in there I know I'm safe and content in the arms of aoe healing off the guy he's whacking supporting the healing from our backline healers. I'm glad he's there and we all openly defend him if anybody gets uppity at him thinking they know everything about a class they do not play and do not know the potential of.
DPS dok with great support train pulls decent numbers. Why? They have high survivability. If they are soloing anyone down I would definitely be questioning the competence of your healers. If he is "cutting straight through our healing by himself" then frankly it sounds like your healers are suffering from a class familiarity issue.
That or, as I have mentioned previously, you are so out geared and outclassed that their specs do not matter. He can get high numbers because he can stay in there, and not die. Both because he has good support, and because you are unable to challenge them to the point it matters.
Until that Dok shows up and starts tearing through your healers by himself. The problem is we are playing two different games. In my game there is no one who outgears, or out levels me. Most of the people I play with are RR70+ for organized small scale fights. We die when we get massively outnumbered, or get hit with a team that is just better than us. When we lose it is completely on us. Did we die because they focused better? Did we have the wrong target priority? Was there a problem with our healing? Did we lose because they had a better group combination? Even spec can come into the debate.
The problem is that you are taking a skilled, high level, well geared dps spec healer with support, and judging his performance against inferior opponents. They are sufficiently better than you to the point that you never pushed their healing to the point of "enough" and as such it did not matter what the DPS DoK was doing. Moreover their DPS had already pushed your healers past the point of enough. Which is the entire point of my post.
Small cracks become large fractures the more pressure you put on them, you were unable to apply any pressure to that DoK. The question becomes can he hack it when he hits a group as geared, and as skill as his. So far I can think of about 3 doks on IR who are up to the challenge. For everyone else they are just dragging their group down, and making excuses all the way to the bottom.
You can't take that route out of it. Here is a dok you cannot get around by claiming he's fighting completely inferior opponents. 179k damage is mdps damage. Period. He's doing mdps damage as a healer. He has a role. Dps. You really think someone is going to turn around and tell someone doing solid damage like that "no you can't come?". You are crazy if you believe that.
Perhaps you haven't seen everything the game has to throw at you. Maybe you don't know everything about dps healers like you think. You do, after all, play a tank. Not a dps healer.
I'd be taking you a lot more seriously if you had a dok. Right now as far as I'm concerned you are suffering from a bad case of confirmation bias, which you seem to get from time to time.
SC2: XxKhrushchev.539
So...what do I do with this Shiny New 'ead? Are Dye merchants gone, or just moved?
We thought about firing up migrated characters, but we only made it to like lvl 22 after launch anyway. It'd feel like stepping into someone else's shoes.
If they are getting ripped down by a Dok, solo, while getting heals I am going to have to go with there is something definitely wrong with them. If the Dok is part of a competent melee train then that is a completely different story, but that is not your story. Your story is group getting heals gets torn apart by solo dok. Second you can throw out "hey this guy scored 179k damage in a scen!" I am more interested in the death blows, I am more interested in the MDPS with him, I am more interested in the targets he is wailing on. I judge a bad scenario based on how close i get to the top of the damage meters.
When a competent DPS train gets going shit dies. It does not live long enough to get enough heals. Which means each person dumb enough to leave spawn is only worth about 6-8k on the damage meters.
None of this really matters because your argument basically says "DPS healers can output decent numbers at high renown ranks with some of the best gear in the game." Which does absolutely nothing to counter my point of "The only thing that matters when it comes to healing is if your group has enough to win. If you have enough then no one cares how much DPS your are doing. If you do not have enough people are going to wonder why the hell you didn't stop beating on that tank and pick up the slack."
A tank cannot suddenly heal the group, best we can do is focus on hot swapping guard to buy the healers some time. MDPS/RDPS cannot suddenly start spamming group heal. That DOK over there sure as hell can.
When someone asks "Why is everyone telling me to learn to play because my low RR DPS healer in greens and maybe annihilator is running around beating on things while everything dies around me"? The answer is not "They are wrong, you just go on playing like you are playing!" The answer is "Look, you are low RR in bad gear running pugs. Pretty much you have every handicap against you. Now you can either be really bad at DPS, or decent at heals. If you are decent at heals people will want to group with you, to help you get gear. Your groups will be more likely to succeed in scenarios. Everyone you meet knows this, and when they see you charge up and start wailing on shit of course they are going to think you are a worthless healer. Because you are. They are not going to want to group with you. They are going to make fun of you. Why? Because you rolled a class that has THE single most important job that no one else can do. Instead of doing it, you are doing their job, badly, and watching them die horribly."
There are damn good DPS healers out there. They are high renown rank, in damn good gear. Very similar to DPS tanks. Frankly if there is a need for a roll you can fill, and you refuse to respec to fill that roll, do not be surprised if the people do not want to deal with you. If there is no pressing need for healers, and you have the gear/renown/skill to be DPS then go for it.
Pay a DoK to follow you around and heal your self damage?
I'm done with this argument. You sure as hell wont be listening to reason anytime soon. If one thing arguing with you has taught me about you, it's you simply wont believe anything anybody else says until you experience it yourself. One of those "I'll believe it when I see it" types. Just as you bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched about tanks, until you got into high rr gear when it was suddenly not so bad. Now you tell me how awesome tanks are at taking healers out of a fight. What a nice turn around that is!
Quite frustrating to talk to really. So I'm done.
What are your names? I have at lest 1 or 2 toon in all tiers on Badlands. I wish I could get my wife to play as well.
Just about all the merchants have been moved to The Inevitable City, and have been taken out of all warcamps, except for T1.
I still bitch about damage outpacing mitigation. I sure as hell am not going to kill a healer on my tank gear, but I can juggle my CC a bit. That is a far cry from ceasing to complain about the core issues of this game.
I have seen it, I know GOOD dps healers. The problem is they are absolutely rare as hell, require high RR and high renown, and also understand that sometimes you are needed to be a pure healer. None of that has anything to do with my point which is why do people hate DPS healers? Because sometimes you desperately need heals and they would rather wipe and fail than heal and potentially win. It is pretty obviously to the dead people how useless you are being, of course they are not going to be happy with you.
Get out of combat, swap your gear, and do your damn archetypal job. If you wont heal your group mates when they need healing the most because you would rather pad your e-peen with imaginary numbers then do not be surprised when you get replaced by someone who will. People play this game to win. They do not play it to lose, repeatedly, because they are short on heals and the person who could heal does not want to because it is "boring".
If you have nothing to post, don't post. If you do not want to discuss something, don't discuss it. Do not get all huffy, post a little rant about how everyone is prejudiced against the people who are happy to watch them die, then brag about their numbers, take your ball and quietly go home.
Honestly? I'm really pissed at you for dissing the members of Schism. this is definitely coloring my reactions to you at this point. I'm not sure if I should talk to you until I calm down. I'm still angry about it.
Chalk it up to being overly loyal if you want. I'm calm enough to recognise it after some time has passed, but I'm not sure if I can keep talking to you about this and keep my cool. So lets just drop it now okay?
I don't even know who or what Schism is.
This is Schism.
We're members of the Raven Host Alliance (Old Folks, Talk Nerdy to Me, etc.) on Iron Rock. In your defense, I didn't notice any dissing of Schism, myself.
Guild Wars 2: Kendrik.5984
Any tips on what I should be doing? I assume stealthing behind the enemy and taking out a healer or two, then running back to my lines, rinse and repeat?
Ha, foolish n00bx0r! Nah, see. That is what people think a rogueclass should do. But think about it. How are you going to kill a healer unless he is a level 1/2/3? You just don't have the damage or debuffs to take one out efficiently.
My strategy before I was strong enough to burn down a lone healer was to stealth and then pop on tanks/MDPS in the front line. Usually so much going on I only would get hit by Magus/Choppa aoe before I took them down. Burn armor, get behind or use positioning, and then spam the armor ignore on tanks or just dps the mdps.
At first you think "ugh I'm not killing healers, I'm not doinganything!" but once you realize how quickly a line falls after losing even one tank, you'll love it.
To anyone new to the game: Pay attention to your powers as you get them. Don't play the role you think you should play, but play the role your powers want you to play. At higher levels you can spec, but at lower levels? for example: a low level WH will have an armor pierce attack, bullets that decrease initiative, and the only out of stealth attack he has is one that damages the victim anytime they use a melee attack. At this point, the only thing you are built to do well is burn down tanks and mdps
Thanks for the tips! I heard on some other forums that Fervor (the stackable DoT attack) isn't worth the energy. I think I'm going to change my rotation to Burn Armor -> Torment -> Absolution -> Torment Spam, with Absolutions thrown in there for kicks. At least until I get some better abilities.
I know I asked this before but:
Where does everyone play? I'm Destro on Iron Rock and Order on Badlands, but if someone has an active group I'd be willing to move my characters around to play.
Thanks for the tips starman, helped a bunch. Choppas and Marauders dying to my backstabs like nothing.
Oh also, I play Order on Badlands. My Witch Hunter's name is Stunter, and my Rune Priest's name is Thurmigin. I'm level 10 and 8 respectively, though :P
I'd be glad to roll around with PA peoples whenever you're on.
Lemme explain. It was basically me getting angry at something he said.
I was just having the usual discussion o rama with Detharin. But this line:
Made me see red. I realised later that after I read that I wasn't thinking straight anymore. Didn't actually realise how much it pissed me off until later.
Attacking the skill of the player is a standard mmo theory argument, a pretty shitty and lowbrow one in my opinion, but a perfectly valid one. I just don't think I can handle it when it's about my guild. I don't think I can be calm about that as it happens. I can in hindsight, but not when it happens in the middle of an argument.
I hope that makes it clearer.
Just to lay it out: I'm over it now. But I don't really want to talk about it anymore because I can't trust myself to be calm about it in the future. I don't hold anything against you Deth, you didn't know who my healers were. I'm just explaining why I went off the deep end there for a while. And why I don't really wanna continue.
Honestly all the magus trees are about equal in viability (which means they all kind of suck), but they can kind of work. It really depends on how you want to play.
I personally went changing until 40, but this was before the blanket aoe nerf when glean magic and pandemonium actually hit for a decent amount. My tactic was to just pop glean and pand on as many people as possible. throw down a dissolving mist on either the front line if it was mostly stationary or the back line if the front was moving around to much, then roll in and do an infernal blast, pop the roiling winds morale on someone in the middle of the group and lash spam. I could at the very least take 5 people down to 20% health. But now that tactic will get them to maybe 50%.
Maybe use something like this for ranged aoe dotting "pressure" build.
Or you could do something like this for single target, pretty much using surging violet fire as every other ability, just make sure you have your pink horror out for the elemental debuff, and keep withering soul on them. I picked demonic withering over the Intel tactic because the intel tactic will give you a 5% damage increase at most.
Hooooly crap. :!:
Amazing that they are actually going to fix the pets. Even after the 1.3.6 buffs I felt pretty useless (rr49) in T4, and told myself I wouldn't play my magus again till they fixed the pets, and it looks like that's going to be sooner than i thought (which was never, lol.) I will actually have to put Strengthen Thrall back on my toolbar, lol.
Are you on iron rock, or badlands or somewhere else starmanbrand?
As for the magus/engineer changes color me unimpressed. Oh look a static increase in damage for standing around one area. Hope you guess the right area to get setup. it just seems to me that rather than fixing the underlying problem (IE magus pets are boring, difficult to manage, and barely useful) they have just slapped a buff on them to encourage you to deal with the frustration of trying. Now magus pets are useful, but still clunky, still cost 55 ap to summon and 60 ap to resummon.
I guess my problem here is that Mythic is not really addressing what I perceive to be the underlying problem. Magus pets are not really fun or interesting. Moreover Magus are rather sub par in the damage department. As opposed to potentially doing something to make magus pets fun, and addressing magus damage, they have instead just slapped on a flat damage increase and called it a day.
I think this will reinforce the originally intended role of area denial, as well as the damage over time aspect (of at least the magus, haven't really played engi too much.)
They did mention making tactics that would cause the pets to give other effects being a possibility, but I don't foresee that happening at the same time. I'd say if the distance you have to be from your pet to gain this buff is anything less than 30ft it will be retarded. I'd say 45ft would be a good distance to give the magus a decent sized area to move around in.
I do quite a bit of schooling but could probably sneak in an hour here or there if someone tosses me a PM or a request in this thread for people to get on.
In other news, I have little desire to be leaving t3.
My 31 blorc is such a beast I'm not looking forward to the huge grind before he'll become competitive again.
Oh god I know how you feel. Every time I transitioned from T3 to T4 it felt like a kid who had just had all their candy stolen by some adult.
Nothing really. Besides the obvious idiot human being. And there's really wrong with a media outlet not knowing the difference between video games. That's pretty normal, they're ignorant.
Worst TotP.