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Should I buy this project car ('59 Plymouth Belvedere)?
SmokeStacks
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
(I know there is a car thread, but this seems a little different from the normal car talk)
So past changing a tire and changing the oil, I don't really know much of anything when it comes to automobile maintenance. This is something I really think I should remedy, since I really don't want to have to pay a mechanic to do something I can learn to do on my own.
So, the thought came into my mind some time ago to pick up a non-running project car and learn from the ground up. I kept an eye out for beaters and auto/junkyards as well as craigslist, but was never really in a position where I had the money or the space that I would need to devote to it.
Until now.
I'll be moving soon (which means I'm looking for a house with a garage), and I recently found out that I will be on the business end of an unexpected inheritance (about $3-$4k) sometime in the next three to five weeks. So now would seem to be the time to seriously look around for the car I want to bring back from the dead.
Cue the junkyard down the road, where while exploring I stumbled upon this:
which, to my understanding, is a complete four door 1959 Plymouth Belvedere. Make all the Arnie jokes you want, but this car speaks to me.
The problem is I really don't know what I am getting into. The rear plate on the car was last tagged in '79, meaning the car has been off of the road for around 30 years. Other than some rust damage to the front left quarterpanel and a small dent on the rear left side (you can see it directly over the tire) the body is incredibly straight for it's age though. All of the glass is intact, as are the gauges. The original motor is there, although I don't know how salvageable it is.
There doesn't really seem to be a lot of rust, although I haven't seen underneath yet. The man who owns the yard (who looks incredibly, eerily like an older version of John Locke) told me that the car originally belonged to a friend of his and that it began to smoke, was parked at another yard he had, and it's been sitting in one junkyard or another that he has owned ever since. He told me he was looking for $1,250 (which I have no idea whether or not is reasonable) for it but we haven't haggled at all yet.
I figure as far as projects go, one this old would be ideal to start with since I won't have to worry about a lot of wiring or vacuum hoses, but as I said I'm kinda out of my element here. So basically, what should I look for before making a decision? Is this price reasonable or ridiculous (considering the condition as well as the fact that it looks like the entire car with all of it's original components are there, including the hubcaps even)? If I buy this car am I going to slowly become possessed by the evil spirit of it's previous owner while it goes on murderous rampages?
Also, since car threads should have the same rule as pet threads, here are some more pictures. They're taken with my terrible phone camera, so please excuse the quality (also the car is still covered in crap since it is in a junkyard and for some reason in every image the far left headlight looks like it's broken even though it's not):
Front:
Side:
Rear:
Rear 2:
The door is ajar here, it's flush when it's closed
Interior Dash Driver's Side:
Interior Dash Passenger's Side:
Under the Hood:
Front Left Rust Damage Closeup:
Left Dent Closeup:
Grill Emblem:
I know that it will take a lot of time and money to get it running, let alone looking good (I'm not one of those people who thinks you can just take a rusted classic car hulk and "cherry it out" over the course of a month and then sell it for twenty grand). I don't mind a lot of work, since the goal is to not just have a functioning automobile after all is said and done, but to also have a decent working knowledge of the inner workings of said automobile. I don't mind the fact that it's more than likely going to be very expensive (this is something I don't mind working on for a long time).
I know it looks pretty bad now, but I really feel that with time and work, it has the capability to be an absolutely beautiful machine. So, to the classic car aficionados here at PA, what do you think? Should I do it?
So past changing a tire and changing the oil, I don't really know much of anything when it comes to automobile maintenance. This is something I really think I should remedy, since I really don't want to have to pay a mechanic to do something I can learn to do on my own.
So, the thought came into my mind some time ago to pick up a non-running project car and learn from the ground up. I kept an eye out for beaters and auto/junkyards as well as craigslist, but was never really in a position where I had the money or the space that I would need to devote to it.
Until now.
I'll be moving soon (which means I'm looking for a house with a garage), and I recently found out that I will be on the business end of an unexpected inheritance (about $3-$4k) sometime in the next three to five weeks. So now would seem to be the time to seriously look around for the car I want to bring back from the dead.
Cue the junkyard down the road, where while exploring I stumbled upon this:
which, to my understanding, is a complete four door 1959 Plymouth Belvedere. Make all the Arnie jokes you want, but this car speaks to me.
The problem is I really don't know what I am getting into. The rear plate on the car was last tagged in '79, meaning the car has been off of the road for around 30 years. Other than some rust damage to the front left quarterpanel and a small dent on the rear left side (you can see it directly over the tire) the body is incredibly straight for it's age though. All of the glass is intact, as are the gauges. The original motor is there, although I don't know how salvageable it is.
There doesn't really seem to be a lot of rust, although I haven't seen underneath yet. The man who owns the yard (who looks incredibly, eerily like an older version of John Locke) told me that the car originally belonged to a friend of his and that it began to smoke, was parked at another yard he had, and it's been sitting in one junkyard or another that he has owned ever since. He told me he was looking for $1,250 (which I have no idea whether or not is reasonable) for it but we haven't haggled at all yet.
I figure as far as projects go, one this old would be ideal to start with since I won't have to worry about a lot of wiring or vacuum hoses, but as I said I'm kinda out of my element here. So basically, what should I look for before making a decision? Is this price reasonable or ridiculous (considering the condition as well as the fact that it looks like the entire car with all of it's original components are there, including the hubcaps even)? If I buy this car am I going to slowly become possessed by the evil spirit of it's previous owner while it goes on murderous rampages?
Also, since car threads should have the same rule as pet threads, here are some more pictures. They're taken with my terrible phone camera, so please excuse the quality (also the car is still covered in crap since it is in a junkyard and for some reason in every image the far left headlight looks like it's broken even though it's not):
Front:
Side:
Rear:
Rear 2:
The door is ajar here, it's flush when it's closed
Interior Dash Driver's Side:
Interior Dash Passenger's Side:
Under the Hood:
Front Left Rust Damage Closeup:
Left Dent Closeup:
Grill Emblem:
I know that it will take a lot of time and money to get it running, let alone looking good (I'm not one of those people who thinks you can just take a rusted classic car hulk and "cherry it out" over the course of a month and then sell it for twenty grand). I don't mind a lot of work, since the goal is to not just have a functioning automobile after all is said and done, but to also have a decent working knowledge of the inner workings of said automobile. I don't mind the fact that it's more than likely going to be very expensive (this is something I don't mind working on for a long time).
I know it looks pretty bad now, but I really feel that with time and work, it has the capability to be an absolutely beautiful machine. So, to the classic car aficionados here at PA, what do you think? Should I do it?
SmokeStacks on
0
Posts
Unless,
you have an friend with some expertise, or job experience, and willingness to spend as much time as you do on the car. Can you get into some kind of class? Or make friends with the badasses at a shop nearby? Buy these guys beers and watch them work on project cars. Join an antique car club, or any kind of car club if there a car club nearby. Something, somewhere you can integrate into.
You have, or have access to a shop, full tools, and and a complete book for the car.
You are prepared to spend far more than the 5k you are about to inherit, and I'm not even talking buying the car (tools alone necessary for this job will hit 2-3k, if not more and proper tools are everything.)
I won't even get into specifics of what you'll encounter when restoring a car, because you're not really ready for a project like this. But you need to learn how all things work. Can you rebuild a transmission? Do you know how an engine works?
Anywho talk to your close friends, make sure you have a partner in this. If you were my friend or lived in my neighborhood I'd help you for sure, if you want to be a gearhead (and I am not, my only solo project was a 1986 honda magna) you have to become good friends with a gearhead.
buy warhams
The rear fender looks pretty rough as well and since this is a body on a frame, it'll take quite a bit of work to straighten back out.
Looks like it's got the 318ci V8, which put out 225 hp in that trim. But at the price he's asking I'd probably keep looking. You can find a running car for that kind of money.
So what you're looking at with this lovely little '59 is a total restoration - not just getting the engine running and fixing that rusty fender, but making the seats, headliner, radio, electrical, etc. work and not look like crap. It's a lot of work, and unless you know some dudes who have done this before and have the supplies and connections to get this done (like 2628 says above) you'll probably want to pass on this particular car as your first foray.
I'm not saying don't get your hands dirty though! A garage and some enthusiasm goes a long way towards helping you learn how to work on a vehicle, though you'll probably want to pick something a little newer. Newer project cars have the advantage of really easy to find and generally cheap parts, standard fastener sizes, online and print guides and large communities of people who work on them, all of which are a huge boon to a first time car mechanic.
So, look for a carbureted Jeep Wrangler/Scrambler, Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, or Beetle and go to town.
Not quite liming material, but close enough.
I think you can find a better deal, and unless you know an awesome welder/shop guy there are better options to begin restoring a car.
I do hate to poop on your dreams though, I would try to find a running car to begin work on. Few things are a satisfying as wrenching on something you love. You need to try and find a good "barn car" that was only driven by a little old lady to church on sundays. don't have to go that far, but find someone who already got in over their head and take their "problem" off of their hands. IMHO.
You got good taste, I'll give you that. you looking to stay in the same era? Might I suggest a chevy from that same time period. Lots of options for aftermarket, and you can find some really nice examples.
And there actually are a lot of books and guides on how to restore something, but they take years. Many many many many years. My dad actually just bought one of those car magazines, and in it is an article about a guy who spend 24 years restoring his Porsche. Are you up to that commitment?
If you really want to start out, most people go with more modern but still plentiful cars, like Camaros, Mustangs, Hondas, etc. They're a bit more modern, parts are more available, they have huuuuge aftermarket support, and nearly everyone knows how to fix one. That would be my suggestion.
These are in fact one of the easiest and cheapest old car that I've ever worked on. Depending on where you are, you should be able to find some decent examples pretty cheaply. If you're on the west coast, you should be able to find a nice rust free one as well, east coast and midwest volkswagens tend to be a bit rusty.
if that kind of thing interests you http://thesamba.com is a great place to start looking.
That (already) being said, 70s Datsuns are A: reliable B: plentiful and C: generally inexpensive (I'm picking up a running '77 280z for $700). Add those to a list of possible project cars
PSN - MicroChrist
I'm too fuckin' poor to play
WordsWFriends - zeewoot
If your looking to learn more about cars and have something to build then drive take a look into kit cars much easier all around. Probably more expensive at the beginning but you get everything you need and you get some experience working on just about ever aspect of a car.
I'm trying to remember the year, but a buddy of mine is restoring a 240z, with the FI head off of a 280z and then found out that that there is a crank from another datsun that is a drop in that takes it to 2.6L I believe. I can't wait for him to get 'r done as it were. That is gonna be a fun car to drive.
It being aircooled, though, it won't be the same experience as a typical water-cooled engine.
I'd also suggest a Fox-body Mustang.
They're super cheap, ridiculously plentiful, have TONS of aftermarket support, parts are readily available, and they're super easy to wrench on.
Get something like that to play with and learn on before taming on a project like the Plymouth. It gets overwhelming really really fast. That's why you find tons of partially completed projects going up on CL daily.
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
Yeah the 260Z was just a 240 block with a different crank. The 280 is the same block too, but with all internals upgraded, different head, etc. While he's modding, pretty much any parts up to the 1980 280Z are pretty well interchangeable. And yeah, they are a blast to drive! The "Poor man's Jaguar" is a fitting moniker
PSN - MicroChrist
I'm too fuckin' poor to play
WordsWFriends - zeewoot
Also, you should wait a year or so after you get into your house. You will no doubt have quite a few unplanned expenses that could eat up your new money. Things like hoses and lawn mowers and lamps and such as. Annual HVAC checks, surprisingly high water bills, stuff like that.
If you really have it in for working on an old car, set your sights on a "driver" quality* classic of some kind. There are a lot of older cars that don;t have the cachet and collector value of 60's Mustangs or Bandit Trans Ams. Around here in Ohio (you're in Seattle, right?) there's a constant flow of old cars in Craigslist or you can pick up one of the classified magazines at the store. Knowing that the Big 3 cloned cars, you can look for the "off brand" of a car you like - such as a 60's Cougar instead of a Mustang, or a Satellite instead of a Road Runner. This way you can ramp up slowly, buying the tools you need as projects come up, and starting off with small things that are easy to access like swapping out the starter or replacing cracked interior components.
My advice is to stick to American classics because the parts are all over the place. I can go to Autozone and get a master cylinder or wiper motor for my 73 Chevy. Also the guys are all over the place, maybe it's different on the West Coast but around here you trip over enthusiast clubs for the big 3 but if you are working on an old Datsun or something you're online for everything. It makes a big difference to have someone come over to your house and say "Whatcha need is... here hold the thing this way and *pop* OK it's in, grab your wrench" versus trying to deal with gearheads on forums. I swear to God if I have to search a forum guessing what fucked-up spelling for "parking brake" people came up with... ahem.
And while you are looking through the classic ads, take heed of how many times you see "Car for sale! $8000 in parts already invested, will sell for $5000" and think about what that really means. In money as well as time.
Anyway, this is too much for a first-timer. Like, way too much. This is too much for a fourth-timer. You think all the parts are there but it's not, it's SO not.
*
The classification for the car you are looking at is "basket case" and to bring a basket case back to "driver" is a Herculean task that many car guys applaud but never attempt. "Barn car" usually means the car was parked in a protected spot and not moved for years, these cars do need work to get running because the fluids have dried up and the tires are probably rotted, but the components are all there. "Granny car" is one that was maintained by someone and has really low miles, the only way you can get these for a good price is if the granny in question has NO idea what her car is worth AND has no friends or family to cock-block you when you go to make an offer.
Buy the nicest, best car you can with your budget, because fixing them up is not cheap.
I like this guy. listen to his advice.
To reiterate how much work that car is going to be, my grandpa was restoring a car... I want to say a 1949 Studebaker. He worked in a machine shop, had all of the metal working and body work tools, all of the mechanical work tools, etc. He was working on that car when I was born in 1980 as far as I know. He was working on it nearly every time I visited up until he died in 1998. The car wasn't even driveable yet. The engine may have been running, I can't remember for sure.
If I were to get the 'fix up a car' bug, I would get one that runs and was more popular so that the parts will be cheaper.
It's overpriced because it has sentimental value to him. Good indicator is how relatively new all the vehicles around it are compared to it :P
Buy something running, with no frame rust, that could possibly used as a "pain in the butt day to day" (which you likely won't be using it for) but would be fine for the weekend.
Buy something common, parts will slap you if you don't.
Still expect it to be a significant drain on funds
A "driver" is going to give you those opportunities, just not all at once and with the immediate payoff of getting back on the road. Shit is always breaking on these older cars; everything under the hood that's not been replaced is already well over it's service life expectancy. As something breaks you learn what it is and how to fix it and then you take it for a spin to verify.
Example:
I never knew how to do brakes until the master cylinder in mine gave up last year. I got in, the brake pedal went to the floor (luckily in the garage not on the interstate) so I looked up something on line about brakes, a car-guy friend came over and agreed it needed a new master cylinder and pointed at what I would need to take off and how to get the new one on. I went to the store, got the thing, got my tools, replaced the part and then uh oops I need to bleed the brake lines. I called another friend over and he showed me how to do it and pumped the pedal for me. Had I not had a friend I would have goner to Sears and gotten one of those pump things but still, now I know how to do it.
And later that day I went out to the Parkway and practiced slamming on the brakes Starsky-and-Hutch style. You know, to make sure they were good.
Now, contrast that story with one that's the same only ends "and I looked at the pile of parts and sheet metal and closed the garage on Day 122 out of 585." /sad trombone
Anyway, you guys have given some very good advice, so I would like to thank you. PA forums is just one area where I am asking for input, so for all of the guys who mentioned checking to see if there are any classic car/restoration clubs in my area that is definitely something I am looking into (I don't plan on spending anywhere near that amount of money without having a decent sense of what I am getting myself into).
I do have a good friend of mine (who is also my neighbor) who is a gearhead. We're looking at houses to rent, so if he is a roommate that would be even easier.
Also, I am in Idaho (not Seattle). There is a guy who lives about half an hour from me (who lives in my old neighborhood) who to my understanding is pretty heavily involved in restoring cars (last time I peeked over his fence he was in the process of building a freestanding garage so he could restore two Cudas and a Mustang that were in his backyard). I'm planning on going over and talking to him next weekend to get his input as well, and to get some info on local car clubs. Don't worry - I'm not in a hurry. The car has been sitting in one spot or another for over thirty years, I'm fairly confident it'll still be there if I wait a few months.
As for other cars, part of the reason I am interested in that car is because I am looking for a project, and part of the reason is because it is that car. Also,
And if I end up never getting it running and take a huge loss selling in on craigslist in a year, well, at least I gave it a shot.
Besides, I've driven Beetles before, and as a 6'1" male I feel nowhere near comfortable or safe inside of them. That does leave a lot of other cars to consider, though.
So basically, thank you guys for your input. A lot of you have said that it will be a fairly herculean task, and I will definitely keep your guys' advice in mind before I make a final decision.
This would probably be the best one I can find from a quick search.
The movie used (and destroyed) some Belvederes as stunt cars though, since they're incredibly similar. I always hate seeing a beautiful car get destroyed in a movie or TV show. I can't even imagine how many Chargers were trashed during the filming of The Dukes of Hazzard over the years.
Something like this
I'm not sure.
I'm probably talking about building it from scratch meaning finding all the parts you need and putting them together. Not building the engine from scratch though.
Something like this
looks kind of similar to what you posted, and I guess kits like these run around $6-$8k but I don't know what is included with them past the body (which is fiberglass).
Than there are kits like this one
that run around $19-$20k and include everything except a motor, transmission, and paint.
But, uhh, if money is no object, you want to be a pal and buy me a front left quarter panel for a '59 Belvedere? :winky:
Doesn't a kit car come as a bunch of pre chosen parts that you still have to put together?
That $6-8k kit looks like a nice car to build.
See that right there makes me think "definitely not a first project car". That floorpan is rotted, which will require cutting out and replacing with either a replacement factory part, or a custom-made piece. Which, unless you're a panelbeater, is not for you.
This, however, is. http://www.carsforsale.com/used_cars_for_sale/1959_Plymouth_Belvedere_108353105_18
Core plugs are simple and cheap to fix. There is probably something else wrong with the car too, but it's already been restored at least once, and was recently roadworthy, so shouldn't be too rough to get back on the road.
I believe it is.