Actually I've been thinking about that "problem," and I'm pretty sure I would have no trouble controlling a cursor on the top screen via touchscreen. There's no mental disconnect or anything, it's just like using a mouse. Your hand doesn't get in the way, either. I've played lots of DS games that do this sort of thing already and they control quite well.
The only thing that worries me with the 3DS is that not too long after the release they will throw a facelift on us.
I mean, look at the upper halve of the thing - the top screen can and probably will get bigger.
Again, there will be at least three revisions. Get in early with the first one and enjoy all the great games they've already announced, skip the second 3DS, and buy the third which will be even better. Works every time.
GB -> Pocket -> Color
GBA -> SP -> Micro or GBA Player
DS -> DSLite -> DSi or DSiXL
The only thing that worries me with the 3DS is that not too long after the release they will throw a facelift on us.
I mean, look at the upper halve of the thing - the top screen can and probably will get bigger.
Again, there will be at least three revisions. Get in early with the first one and enjoy all the great games they've already announced, skip the second 3DS, and buy the third which will be even better. Works every time.
GB -> Pocket -> Color
GBA -> SP -> Micro or GBA Player
DS -> DSLite -> DSi or DSiXL
Also bear in mind that it's probably due for a redesign of some sort before it hits the shelves.
Actually I've been thinking about that "problem," and I'm pretty sure I would have no trouble controlling a cursor on the top screen via touchscreen. There's no mental disconnect or anything, it's just like using a mouse. Your hand doesn't get in the way, either. I've played lots of DS games that do this sort of thing already and they control quite well.
Yeah, but that only works as long as you're mapping dragging motions. It wouldn't work with things like taps because the moment you lifted the stylus the handheld would no longer know where you were.
I guess you could do things like "stylus = pointer, keys = taps" or "stylus = pointer, lift = tap", but both of those sound cumbersome.
Actually I've been thinking about that "problem," and I'm pretty sure I would have no trouble controlling a cursor on the top screen via touchscreen. There's no mental disconnect or anything, it's just like using a mouse. Your hand doesn't get in the way, either. I've played lots of DS games that do this sort of thing already and they control quite well.
Yeah, but that only works as long as you're mapping dragging motions. It wouldn't work with things like taps because the moment you lifted the stylus the handheld would no longer know where you were.
I guess you could do things like "stylus = pointer, keys = taps" or "stylus = pointer, lift = tap", but both of those sound cumbersome.
Not always. I think you might have that backwards, the system always knows where you're tapping, but the player might not be sure where his pointer is at when he does it!
There are a number of ways to resolve that. One way is to always show a mouse pointer on the top screen and treat it like a touch pad on a laptop: dragging in a direction moves the mouse that direction, and tapping without moving clicks on whatever your pointer is on.
Another way to do it is, also showing a pointer at all times, map the touchscreen directly to the top screen, despite the aspect ratio difference. You can drag to figure out where the pointer's at, and then lift and tap the stylus on that same point to click there.
Basically mouse mapping vs. direct mapping. Doing it directly would be easiest and still pretty precise.
KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
I hope we can see other zeldas in OOT's style (Twilight princess 3ds anyone?) for 3ds. I also hope for a way to play music without doing some confusing shit (See DSI) but than again I already have an Ipod so it doesn't matter. I hope it also comes with more support from great third party companies such as Rockstar, Ubisoft, EA, THQ, and others.
I have long wanted a nice remake of Zelda 1 or LttP. Either 3D or high quality sprites, doesn't matter. Wind Waker style or something different, I'm easy to please.
I just want Wind Waker on 3ds. The thing can pull off the graphics.
I mean after the forced stylus crud of Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, im itching for some WW styled Zelda with actual 3d and non touch screen centric controls.
My dream-list at the moment consists pretty much of Super Smash Brothers Handheld and an X-Com Remake with bells and whistles. And maybe an Advance Wars with less grimdark or a Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced but WITH AN ACTUAL STORY.
I don't understand why there is all of this hatred for Spirit Tracks (I can't defend Phantom Hourglass as I haven't played it). The game was really fun, controlled beautifully, and it was nice to play a Zelda game that wasn't exactly the same as all of the others. A change of pace is good in a series that is otherwise all about reincarnation.
Also you could make the train go CHOOO CHOOOOOOOO.
I don't understand why there is all of this hatred for Spirit Tracks (I can't defend Phantom Hourglass as I haven't played it). The game was really fun, controlled beautifully, and it was nice to play a Zelda game that wasn't exactly the same as all of the others. A change of pace is good in a series that is otherwise all about reincarnation.
Also you could make the train go CHOOO CHOOOOOOOO.
The whole stylus control thing was completely unneeded. The game could easily have been played the exact same way with dpad and buttons, with touch screen for stuff like maps and boomerang.
Its not like Kirby's Canvas Curse, where you need the touch screen.
Actually I've been thinking about that "problem," and I'm pretty sure I would have no trouble controlling a cursor on the top screen via touchscreen. There's no mental disconnect or anything, it's just like using a mouse. Your hand doesn't get in the way, either. I've played lots of DS games that do this sort of thing already and they control quite well.
Yeah, but that only works as long as you're mapping dragging motions. It wouldn't work with things like taps because the moment you lifted the stylus the handheld would no longer know where you were.
I guess you could do things like "stylus = pointer, keys = taps" or "stylus = pointer, lift = tap", but both of those sound cumbersome.
Not always. I think you might have that backwards, the system always knows where you're tapping, but the player might not be sure where his pointer is at when he does it!
There are a number of ways to resolve that. One way is to always show a mouse pointer on the top screen and treat it like a touch pad on a laptop: dragging in a direction moves the mouse that direction, and tapping without moving clicks on whatever your pointer is on.
Another way to do it is, also showing a pointer at all times, map the touchscreen directly to the top screen, despite the aspect ratio difference. You can drag to figure out where the pointer's at, and then lift and tap the stylus on that same point to click there.
Basically mouse mapping vs. direct mapping. Doing it directly would be easiest and still pretty precise.
Yeah, and I'm not really seeing how any of these methods are less cumbersome than the current control method. Instead of being able to directly control the elements you're moving around a cursor that then manipulates elements. Sure, it works (in much the same way my suggestions worked), but it's by no means an improvement, or even Just As Good as the current system.
I don't understand why there is all of this hatred for Spirit Tracks (I can't defend Phantom Hourglass as I haven't played it). The game was really fun, controlled beautifully, and it was nice to play a Zelda game that wasn't exactly the same as all of the others. A change of pace is good in a series that is otherwise all about reincarnation.
Also you could make the train go CHOOO CHOOOOOOOO.
The whole stylus control thing was completely unneeded. The game could easily have been played the exact same way with dpad and buttons, with touch screen for stuff like maps and boomerang.
Its not like Kirby's Canvas Curse, where you need the touch screen.
DPAD + BUTTONS + TOUCH never works. You'd need three hands. Otherwise, you're having to pull out the stylus whenever you need an item and it would be obnoxious. An argument could be made that DPAD + TOUCH would be a viable option (movement on the DPAD, TOUCH for everything else), but then you couldn't change your movement speed and you wouldn't have as much control over direction. I honestly believe that, given the structure of the game, pure Touchscreen controls are the best for it. They keep it simple and concise, and offer a lot of control with a minimal amount of input.
Really, when it comes down to it, moving with the stylus simply wasn't an issue. It worked. I don't see why you're complaining. Do you have some seething hatred for the touchscreen?
I said it before. Picross 3D in real 3D would I imagine control exactly as before on the bottom screen and just have the top screen as the 3D render. I can't see being able to accurately and swiftly pick blocks without the stylus on 2D image interface.
I don't understand why there is all of this hatred for Spirit Tracks (I can't defend Phantom Hourglass as I haven't played it). The game was really fun, controlled beautifully, and it was nice to play a Zelda game that wasn't exactly the same as all of the others. A change of pace is good in a series that is otherwise all about reincarnation.
Also you could make the train go CHOOO CHOOOOOOOO.
The whole stylus control thing was completely unneeded. The game could easily have been played the exact same way with dpad and buttons, with touch screen for stuff like maps and boomerang.
Its not like Kirby's Canvas Curse, where you need the touch screen.
DPAD + BUTTONS + TOUCH never works. You'd need three hands. Otherwise, you're having to pull out the stylus whenever you need an item and it would be obnoxious. An argument could be made that DPAD + TOUCH would be a viable option (movement on the DPAD, TOUCH for everything else), but then you couldn't change your movement speed and you wouldn't have as much control over direction. I honestly believe that, given the structure of the game, pure Touchscreen controls are the best for it. They keep it simple and concise, and offer a lot of control with a minimal amount of input.
Really, when it comes down to it, moving with the stylus simply wasn't an issue. It worked. I don't see why you're complaining. Do you have some seething hatred for the touchscreen?
I'll second this (slightly less venom though :P). You know what I got from Pokemon? Thumbprints all over my touchscreen. Yeaaaaaaaah.
My dream-list at the moment consists pretty much of Super Smash Brothers Handheld and an X-Com Remake with bells and whistles. And maybe an Advance Wars with less grimdark or a Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced but WITH AN ACTUAL STORY.
The only thing that worries me with the 3DS is that not too long after the release they will throw a facelift on us.
I mean, look at the upper halve of the thing - the top screen can and probably will get bigger.
Again, there will be at least three revisions. Get in early with the first one and enjoy all the great games they've already announced, skip the second 3DS, and buy the third which will be even better. Works every time.
GB -> Pocket -> Color
GBA -> SP -> Micro or GBA Player
DS -> DSLite -> DSi or DSiXL
Also bear in mind that it's probably due for a redesign of some sort before it hits the shelves.
Remember the pre-fatty DS?
That was an amazing bullshot on the bottom screen, I mean seriously look at that.
I don't understand why there is all of this hatred for Spirit Tracks (I can't defend Phantom Hourglass as I haven't played it). The game was really fun, controlled beautifully, and it was nice to play a Zelda game that wasn't exactly the same as all of the others. A change of pace is good in a series that is otherwise all about reincarnation.
Also you could make the train go CHOOO CHOOOOOOOO.
Yeah, Spirit Tracks was pretty good. I would agree in the Phantom Hourglass bashing (bland dungeon design, Sea King's Temple got OLD, general substandardness), but Spirit Tracks had some good puzzles and was generally pretty good (deathly boring final boss notwithstanding). I mean, it's no Link's awakening, but it's a good, fun game.
There aren't any other screens of that exact location but I remember it from the game.
I own the game, it could just be the fact that the image is postage stamp sized, but it looks like the texture quality is a little better and touched up in that initial screenshot from my last post.
My dream-list at the moment consists pretty much of Super Smash Brothers Handheld and an X-Com Remake with bells and whistles. And maybe an Advance Wars with less grimdark or a Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced but WITH AN ACTUAL STORY.
I don't understand why there is all of this hatred for Spirit Tracks (I can't defend Phantom Hourglass as I haven't played it). The game was really fun, controlled beautifully, and it was nice to play a Zelda game that wasn't exactly the same as all of the others. A change of pace is good in a series that is otherwise all about reincarnation.
Also you could make the train go CHOOO CHOOOOOOOO.
The whole stylus control thing was completely unneeded. The game could easily have been played the exact same way with dpad and buttons, with touch screen for stuff like maps and boomerang.
Its not like Kirby's Canvas Curse, where you need the touch screen.
DPAD + BUTTONS + TOUCH never works. You'd need three hands. Otherwise, you're having to pull out the stylus whenever you need an item and it would be obnoxious. An argument could be made that DPAD + TOUCH would be a viable option (movement on the DPAD, TOUCH for everything else), but then you couldn't change your movement speed and you wouldn't have as much control over direction. I honestly believe that, given the structure of the game, pure Touchscreen controls are the best for it. They keep it simple and concise, and offer a lot of control with a minimal amount of input.
Really, when it comes down to it, moving with the stylus simply wasn't an issue. It worked. I don't see why you're complaining. Do you have some seething hatred for the touchscreen?
Jesus christ, forgive me for posting my opinion. Do you have some kind of seething hatred for people that don't share your point of view? Should i chide you for your opinion? Do you want me to lash out at you like some kind of silly goose because i dont share your view on things?
Wow, it wasn't that bad of a statement. He didn't personally insult anyone, just that the system worked and he couldn't understand why someone would complain.
Rather than going on a tirade about how offended you are because opinions lol, maybe you could actually tell us why you disagree, give some reasons why you think it controls poorly and how an alternate scheme works better? Maybe?
Wow, it wasn't that bad of a statement. He didn't personally insult anyone, just that the system worked and he couldn't understand why someone would complain.
Rather than going on a tirade about how offended you are because opinions lol, maybe you could actually tell us why you disagree, give some reasons why you think it controls poorly and how an alternate scheme works better? Maybe?
Im just sick of the common reaction. Its always "You must hate the touch screen" or something like that.
Honestly i dont see a need to focus on touch screen only. Very few games warrant it.
So to outline the problems i had with the touch screen zeldas... i will create a list.
1.movement: Running or walking or creating some balance between then was awkward. To run, you have to move the damn stylus to the very edge of the screen or close to it. It makes it very hard to control the direction when the pivot point is way the hell out from the character. For controls that worked "so beautifully" it really came down to a trial and error system of learning how the controls worked for movement. It wasnt as simple as a dpad, which is a medium of control im very familiar with. Furthermore, im right handed when i use the stylus, even though im partly ambidextrous, i cant control a pen with my left hand. Moving with the right hand, and attacking with it etc... is kind of awkward.
2. You dont have to use a stylus to use a touch screen. That argument is the worst one i hear. I use my thumb or thumbnail for the ds touch screen and get just as accurate results. So in a game where i use the dpad, and the touch screen, and buttons, it is as simple as moving my left thumb over to the touch screen. I dont need three hands to do it either.
3. Too many context sensitive controls. The game was littered with stylus cues and controls that were really easy to accidentally swap for one another. Sometimes when i wanted to do a whirlwind attack, my character would simply turn in a circle. It got to be annoying when one thing would react in place of another. With multiple input controls such as buttons, you dont get this issue, because there are less context sensitive controls to contend with.
4. Dpad worked in every single other top down Zelda. It worked so well in fact, that it was the norm for a long time. When i say the stylus based control is unneeded, i truly mean it. We have had reliable, easy to control, and deep systems of control with Zelda for years. Some with only 4 buttons and a dpad. The damn DS has 6 buttons ( ABXY START SELECT ) and two shoulder buttons. There are these wonderful buttons, that are useful, and all capable of being context sensitive. Yet the stylus zelda games all relied on a single input, and myriad context sensitive controls. In a way it was an over simplification of the controls. As varied and deep as the touch screen may be capable of being, the fact that it was used on its own was annoying. I would make the argument that the game would have at least benefited from the use of the DPad, mixed with touch screen. Im sure its too much for some people to manage all those complicated buttons and a touch screen, but the fact that we couldnt use a damn dpad for the simplest parts of control was a shame to me.
That is my opinion. If you want me to elaborate more, PM me. I dont want to sidetrack this conversation about the 3ds any further.
One thing im thankful for with the 3ds is analog input. I think that will go a long way to making games easy to control.
Posts
I mean, look at the upper halve of the thing - the top screen can and probably will get bigger.
Again, there will be at least three revisions. Get in early with the first one and enjoy all the great games they've already announced, skip the second 3DS, and buy the third which will be even better. Works every time.
GB -> Pocket -> Color
GBA -> SP -> Micro or GBA Player
DS -> DSLite -> DSi or DSiXL
Also bear in mind that it's probably due for a redesign of some sort before it hits the shelves.
Remember the pre-fatty DS?
GB>GB Pocket>GB Pocket Light>GBC
GBA>GBA SP>GB MICRO>GBA SP2
DS>DSL>DSi>DSi XL.
Had it not been a piece of crap, I fully expect there would have been at least two more iterations.
The GBA SP2 was the last model SP released, using the same screens that the DS phat had at the time, only just one and cut to size.
It was for all intents and purposes just a regular GBA SP but the box said "now with a brighter screen!" and they meant it.
Depending on how you feel about the micro this is probably the best over GBA system, as it retains BC with all previous GB games.
I guess you could do things like "stylus = pointer, keys = taps" or "stylus = pointer, lift = tap", but both of those sound cumbersome.
There are a number of ways to resolve that. One way is to always show a mouse pointer on the top screen and treat it like a touch pad on a laptop: dragging in a direction moves the mouse that direction, and tapping without moving clicks on whatever your pointer is on.
Another way to do it is, also showing a pointer at all times, map the touchscreen directly to the top screen, despite the aspect ratio difference. You can drag to figure out where the pointer's at, and then lift and tap the stylus on that same point to click there.
Basically mouse mapping vs. direct mapping. Doing it directly would be easiest and still pretty precise.
I mean after the forced stylus crud of Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, im itching for some WW styled Zelda with actual 3d and non touch screen centric controls.
Dont forget the Oracle games.
In fact.. now that i think about it... the majority of my favorite zelda games, were made by Capcom.
I completely agree that the touch screen controls of recent handheld zeldas has to go. So shitty.
/edit also
http://i46.tinypic.com/5l9j50.gif
Also you could make the train go CHOOO CHOOOOOOOO.
Let's Plays of Japanese Games
The whole stylus control thing was completely unneeded. The game could easily have been played the exact same way with dpad and buttons, with touch screen for stuff like maps and boomerang.
Its not like Kirby's Canvas Curse, where you need the touch screen.
DPAD + BUTTONS + TOUCH never works. You'd need three hands. Otherwise, you're having to pull out the stylus whenever you need an item and it would be obnoxious. An argument could be made that DPAD + TOUCH would be a viable option (movement on the DPAD, TOUCH for everything else), but then you couldn't change your movement speed and you wouldn't have as much control over direction. I honestly believe that, given the structure of the game, pure Touchscreen controls are the best for it. They keep it simple and concise, and offer a lot of control with a minimal amount of input.
Really, when it comes down to it, moving with the stylus simply wasn't an issue. It worked. I don't see why you're complaining. Do you have some seething hatred for the touchscreen?
Let's Plays of Japanese Games
I'll second this (slightly less venom though :P). You know what I got from Pokemon? Thumbprints all over my touchscreen. Yeaaaaaaaah.
Might want to edit that out, I got an infraction for posting a gif like that inline.
Direct feed from 2004:
The final game a year or two later:
There aren't any other screens of that exact location but I remember it from the game.
Yeah, Spirit Tracks was pretty good. I would agree in the Phantom Hourglass bashing (bland dungeon design, Sea King's Temple got OLD, general substandardness), but Spirit Tracks had some good puzzles and was generally pretty good (deathly boring final boss notwithstanding). I mean, it's no Link's awakening, but it's a good, fun game.
I own the game, it could just be the fact that the image is postage stamp sized, but it looks like the texture quality is a little better and touched up in that initial screenshot from my last post.
Dunno why it would be, but I changed it to a link just in case.
Jesus christ, forgive me for posting my opinion. Do you have some kind of seething hatred for people that don't share your point of view? Should i chide you for your opinion? Do you want me to lash out at you like some kind of silly goose because i dont share your view on things?
So are we going to start a pool on when the 3DS will actually get launched?
3DS Friend Code: 2707-1614-5576
PAX Prime 2014 Buttoneering!
40 Quatloos on December.
Rather than going on a tirade about how offended you are because opinions lol, maybe you could actually tell us why you disagree, give some reasons why you think it controls poorly and how an alternate scheme works better? Maybe?
Im just sick of the common reaction. Its always "You must hate the touch screen" or something like that.
Honestly i dont see a need to focus on touch screen only. Very few games warrant it.
So to outline the problems i had with the touch screen zeldas... i will create a list.
1.movement: Running or walking or creating some balance between then was awkward. To run, you have to move the damn stylus to the very edge of the screen or close to it. It makes it very hard to control the direction when the pivot point is way the hell out from the character. For controls that worked "so beautifully" it really came down to a trial and error system of learning how the controls worked for movement. It wasnt as simple as a dpad, which is a medium of control im very familiar with. Furthermore, im right handed when i use the stylus, even though im partly ambidextrous, i cant control a pen with my left hand. Moving with the right hand, and attacking with it etc... is kind of awkward.
2. You dont have to use a stylus to use a touch screen. That argument is the worst one i hear. I use my thumb or thumbnail for the ds touch screen and get just as accurate results. So in a game where i use the dpad, and the touch screen, and buttons, it is as simple as moving my left thumb over to the touch screen. I dont need three hands to do it either.
3. Too many context sensitive controls. The game was littered with stylus cues and controls that were really easy to accidentally swap for one another. Sometimes when i wanted to do a whirlwind attack, my character would simply turn in a circle. It got to be annoying when one thing would react in place of another. With multiple input controls such as buttons, you dont get this issue, because there are less context sensitive controls to contend with.
4. Dpad worked in every single other top down Zelda. It worked so well in fact, that it was the norm for a long time. When i say the stylus based control is unneeded, i truly mean it. We have had reliable, easy to control, and deep systems of control with Zelda for years. Some with only 4 buttons and a dpad. The damn DS has 6 buttons ( ABXY START SELECT ) and two shoulder buttons. There are these wonderful buttons, that are useful, and all capable of being context sensitive. Yet the stylus zelda games all relied on a single input, and myriad context sensitive controls. In a way it was an over simplification of the controls. As varied and deep as the touch screen may be capable of being, the fact that it was used on its own was annoying. I would make the argument that the game would have at least benefited from the use of the DPad, mixed with touch screen. Im sure its too much for some people to manage all those complicated buttons and a touch screen, but the fact that we couldnt use a damn dpad for the simplest parts of control was a shame to me.
That is my opinion. If you want me to elaborate more, PM me. I dont want to sidetrack this conversation about the 3ds any further.
One thing im thankful for with the 3ds is analog input. I think that will go a long way to making games easy to control.
I love the placement of the analog on the 3ds. I don't really liked where the nub on my psp is located.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm