If they're going to make this for seasoned gamers why not at least give us the option for the CC instead of forcing the much reviled pointless waggle on us? I'm not even mad about it, just saddened. It's like they made the most delicious chocolate cake and then used poop for icing. Horizontal Wiimote just feels awkward too, I would never ever use it given an alternative (I use the CC even for VC NES games).
Pointer controls are great. So is tilt. Shaking is just imprecise and tedious especially in a game like this.
I hate it when games are forced to have motion control just for the sake of having motion control. They really have no place here.
Metroid Prime didn't get anywhere close to 10 million sold. No GameCube game crossed 10 million. Smash Bros. Melee was its top seller, with something 8 million sold. Mario Kart Double Dash cleared 7 million, and Mario Sunshine cleared 6 million. Other than that I'm not sure if any GameCube games even sold above 5 million. Metroid Prime fell in the range of 2-2.5 million, Echoes was around 800,000 last I heard, and Corruption had shipped 1.35 million worldwide about 6 months after release. Given the recent resurgence of 2D platformers, the fact that this title is far more accessible than the Metroid Prime series, plus Nintendo marketing this as their lynchpin holiday title, and there is no reason whatsoever to expect that it won't blow away anything else Retro's done in terms of sales.
Yeah for reals. Some Wii games gets motion control right (stuff like MadWorld or No More Heroes, where the motion is intuitive and not forced all the time). Some go half-and-half (NSMB Wii -- platform tilting is cool, shake to pick up and spin jump is not). With DKCR, there's waggle everywhere and I'm not even seeing a freaking benefit to it all. It doesn't pull me in any better, the game doesn't control better, and it's frankly a hindrance to my enjoyment of the game
For me, it's a little worse because the available controls range from uncomfortable to downright painful. The sideways Wiimote hurts after a few minutes and the nunchuck combo fairs a little better. The killer with the latter is that holding the B trigger (which you do always in this game) gets very straining after a while. Apparently, my malformed right hand just can't handle this sort of shit.
But I keep at it after all these things because in the end, this is seriously one of the most inventive platformers I've played this side of Super Mario Galaxy. Retro Studios is a top-shelf act and their namesake is more than earned by this point.
(I admit it, when I heard the Fear Factory remix, I squealed like a girl a little.)
Are you holding B to run with nunchuk controls? Because you don't have to. Running is automatic with the nunchukas long as you're holding all the way right or left. You only have to hold 2 if you're using the wiimote.
Gilder on
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Gennenalyse RuebenThe Prettiest Boy is Ridiculously PrettyRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
I'm just going to pop in here to say that I'm a seasoned gamer and haven't had any issues whatsoever with the "waggle" in DKCR aside from a few mistimed roll-jumps early on. I actually really like using the wiimote and nunchuk to pound the ground, too.
Just like picking shit up in NSMB Wii only people with broken hardware or no fine motor control mess up the roll, it works perfectly for me so far.
This game so far is better then anything Rare ever did, which is saying something as I generally like the first two DKC games despite some rather questionable level design bits.
Metroid Prime didn't get anywhere close to 10 million sold. No GameCube game crossed 10 million. Smash Bros. Melee was its top seller, with something 8 million sold. Mario Kart Double Dash cleared 7 million, and Mario Sunshine cleared 6 million. Other than that I'm not sure if any GameCube games even sold above 5 million. Metroid Prime fell in the range of 2-2.5 million, Echoes was around 800,000 last I heard, and Corruption had shipped 1.35 million worldwide about 6 months after release. Given the recent resurgence of 2D platformers, the fact that this title is far more accessible than the Metroid Prime series, plus Nintendo marketing this as their lynchpin holiday title, and there is no reason whatsoever to expect that it won't blow away anything else Retro's done in terms of sales.
Got the 10 million figure from wikipedia, but then I checked their sources and they weren't reliable. According to this link - http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Metroid_Prime - Metroid Prime sold about 2 million worldwide which is more believable.
I still think DKCR is going to have mediocre sales since the license is far past its prime and it doesn't really do anything to stand out, but it's obvious that I'm not convincing anyone so I'll stop. We'll see what happens when the next NPD report comes out.
It might have mediocre sales, but that says more to me about gamers in general than whether or not the license is past its prime.
I'm up to world 7 now, and this is honestly one of the most brilliant games I've ever played. This world, in particular, is just so well-designed. The music, art direction, everything is just breathtaking. Once Fear Factory and, later, Life in the Mines kicked in, I couldn't stop smiling.
I agree with all of the tacked-on waggle comments. Maybe kids that grow up with the Wii will have this intuitive feel for timing the waggle, but I just can't match the crisp control I loved in the old DKC games.
Which leads me to this: Has anyone invented a controller where "waggle" is mapped to a button? Because seriously, I'd buy one in a heartbeat for games like this...
I suppose they could do something to attach a higher sensitivity accelerometer directly to a button so it registers a lot of movement when you push it.
Really though, I don't think a lot of games rely strictly on generic "shake," there's a lot of directional thrusting and movement out there that would limit the utility of such a controller.
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but the first thing I noticed when I played it is that the camera is at an absolute perfect distance. It's far enough out that I get a nice field of vision, yet close enough that I don't have trouble seeing what the character and enemies are doing. Kirby really needed this, as there wasn't a lot of room for two people on the screen.
As with most of you, I hate the waggle. It bothers me so much that I'm tempted to rip open a Wiimote and slap an extra button on there myself. I can accept it in mediocre games, but when one of the best platformers I've seen in the past decade has it, I just want to walk out into the street and scream. This isn't like someone using poop instead of icing. This is like having an absolutely perfect cake, but you're just getting over a cold so it doesn't taste right. There's nothing wrong with the game (as least as far as I've played), but I'm not going to like it as much as I should if I can't interact with it properly.
Ok, rant over. The game is still awesome and worth the frustration of that one thing.
Just beat the game. Wow. I'm ashamed to admit I had to use the Super Kong walkthrough a few times in the later levels, namely the Rocket Barrel and Mine Cart levels. I seem to have a problem with the levels where I have to keep pace with the game instead of going at my own pace. Of course, NyQuil isn't helping my reaction time any. Stupid cold.
Overall, it was everything I wanted it to be. Just a blast, and incredibly nostalgic.
I'm just going to pop in here to say that I'm a seasoned gamer and haven't had any issues whatsoever with the "waggle" in DKCR aside from a few mistimed roll-jumps early on. I actually really like using the wiimote and nunchuk to pound the ground, too.
Coming from someone who has hated almost every wii game because of shitty waggle controls (Twilight Princess comes to mind) with the exception of SMG1/2 I have to say DKCR is pretty good when it comes to waggle. And it's not obnoxiously stuffed in like some games do, my first time hopping in a barrel for some reason I instinctively waggled the controller only to find out I just had to press A, thank you DKCR thank you.
But yeah I played through the first world and the few deaths I've had can't be blamed on motion controls. Also the game is very, very pretty. If I can't unlock everything before my rental's up this might become a xmas gift for myself.
Is anyone else having a bitch of a time nailing the timing on the big bounce jump off of enemies? Is there a trick I'm missing? That mine cart level in w5 or 6 with the mandatory bounce jumps off the floating bongos took me 20 lives. I lucked out and made it through by the skin of my (coco)nuts.
Are you holding B to run with nunchuk controls? Because you don't have to. Running is automatic with the nunchukas long as you're holding all the way right or left. You only have to hold 2 if you're using the wiimote.
Are you fucking shitting me.
You're fucking shitting me right.
Ok no, you're not. It turns out I'm just an enormous dipshit.
Thanks for giving a shortbus rider some pro pointers dude, you are my hero.
Everything I've read about the game seems to indicate that the sideways Wiimote control scheme is the best one overall. Waggle without direction you ground pound and waggle + direction you roll. Sounds pretty simple.
I think the sideways Wiimote controls for NSMBW were just fine though and have never been bothered with playing a game that way honestly.
Both control schemes seem to have different advantages. Like for time trials people prefer the nunchuk. Because you can alternate between what to waggle it makes it easier to keep up an infinite roll with Diddy. You also don't have to hold down 2 to run. Some people find those controls a bit inaccurate though and prefer the wiimote. I will say that I've died a few times because I accidentally rolled off the edge instead of blew on a flower and I use the nunchuk.
Gotten all KONG letters and puzzle pieces for the first two worlds; haven't even attempted any time trials yet. This game is astonishingly good. Interestingly, I didn't think Tumblin' Temple was nearly as hard as Platform Panic (which was awesomely designed and immensely challengingly in the best possible way).
As an aside, anybody have any particular questions they'd like me to ask when I go see Retro tomorrow? I doubt there will be very many there, but I'll try to ask what I can.
As an aside, anybody have any particular questions they'd like me to ask when I go see Retro tomorrow? I doubt there will be very many there, but I'll try to ask what I can.
I guess they'd be tightlipped about what they're up to next. Actually I'd be interested to know what happened to those guys who left to form a new company just before the economic crisis hit.
Are you doing an interview for a site? Could you link me when it's posted up.
What they would definitely do is fire any employee who gave an honest answer. Because they may not realize that it would get posted on the internet eventually and then it would reach Nintendo and ugh it would be really bad for everybody. Nintendo would probably hold a much tighter leash around them and that would essentially be like killing them off.
Actually a legitimate question I'd be interested in is if they could say just how much David Wise or any of the others who worked on the original DKC soundtrack helped with this. I think it's just sort of unconfirmed that they got Wise to help. I'd like a definitive answer now that the game is out to just how much he helped, if at all.
Gilder on
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Gennenalyse RuebenThe Prettiest Boy is Ridiculously PrettyRegistered Userregular
As an aside, anybody have any particular questions they'd like me to ask when I go see Retro tomorrow? I doubt there will be very many there, but I'll try to ask what I can.
Ask them why they left Diddy unplayable in Single Player. It legitimately confuses me and is one of the only real issues I have about the game.
Gennenalyse Rueben on
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Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
Eh, I didn't mind the lack of dedicated Diddy play really. It essentially makes the DK barrels (and by extension Diddy) a powerup that you have to fight to maintain. Because honestly, if you have the option of playing as Diddy always, with his jetpack ability, why would you ever play as DK?
I'm not doing this for any site actually. As I mentioned a few pages back in this thread, I took care of the mother of a Retro employee in the hospital about a month or so ago. The mother mentioned one of her kids worked for Nintendo in Austin, and I recognized that was Retro. Then I got to meet this employee, and was offered a chance to tour the studio and get my copies of DKCR and Metroid Prime Trilogy signed by the dev staff. I waited until after the game came out so they might have the chance to talk more, and now am going to check it out. So for obvious reasons I have no idea how much I'll be allowed to talk about, since this is not something being done in an official capacity. I may be told not to say anything other than I got to go there. Honestly, I suspect that between DKCR having just come out and it being Thanksgiving week the studio will be nearly deserted, but I'm still looking forward to it.
And I actually asked about Other M when I met the employee, when I asked if there was a chance of them returning to Metroid and how much more I enjoyed Prime than Other M. The answer was very diplomatic indeed, but this employee felt like it would be a very long time before Retro returned to Metroid if they ever did at all, and I got the feeling that their thoughts on Other M are in line with how many others feel.
As an aside, anybody have any particular questions they'd like me to ask when I go see Retro tomorrow? I doubt there will be very many there, but I'll try to ask what I can.
I guess they'd be tightlipped about what they're up to next. Actually I'd be interested to know what happened to those guys who left to form a new company just before the economic crisis hit.
Are you doing an interview for a site? Could you link me when it's posted up.
The "thinktank" company? Yeah, it's dead. Because it was stupid.
I'm not doing this for any site actually. As I mentioned a few pages back in this thread, I took care of the mother of a Retro employee in the hospital about a month or so ago. The mother mentioned one of her kids worked for Nintendo in Austin, and I recognized that was Retro. Then I got to meet this employee, and was offered a chance to tour the studio and get my copies of DKCR and Metroid Prime Trilogy signed by the dev staff. I waited until after the game came out so they might have the chance to talk more, and now am going to check it out. So for obvious reasons I have no idea how much I'll be allowed to talk about, since this is not something being done in an official capacity. I may be told not to say anything other than I got to go there. Honestly, I suspect that between DKCR having just come out and it being Thanksgiving week the studio will be nearly deserted, but I'm still looking forward to it.
And I actually asked about Other M when I met the employee, when I asked if there was a chance of them returning to Metroid and how much more I enjoyed Prime than Other M. The answer was very diplomatic indeed, but this employee felt like it would be a very long time before Retro returned to Metroid if they ever did at all, and I got the feeling that their thoughts on Other M are in line with how many others feel.
Just remember that even if you say you aren't doing it for any site they always have to assume that you could just tweet it and then bam whatever they said is out there. It'll hit every news site around as an official Retro statement or whatever, so any question you ask, if you even get a chance to, will have to pass their test of "Would this be okay to have out there IF it ever got out." That's why if you ask them anything you have to play it safe and not ask anything that could get them in trouble. If you ask them something like "Was it hard to come up with the idea for the main bad guys in DKCR?" or "Did you ever consider making the game easier for gamers these days, or did you always want it to be just as difficult as it turned out to be?" then they probably wouldn't have any problems answering them. You gotta throw lowballs you know?
I'm sure someone else has been smart enough and had a big enough headache/aneurysm trying to figure this out... but is Nintendo really that dumb to make the tag line for their game that
DONKEY KONG is on like DONKEY KONG.
I could be wrong but considering that donkey kong IS donkey kong then comparing itself to itself seems kind of redundant at the least, fucking stupid if I go more in depth.
Eh, I didn't mind the lack of dedicated Diddy play really. It essentially makes the DK barrels (and by extension Diddy) a powerup that you have to fight to maintain. Because honestly, if you have the option of playing as Diddy always, with his jetpack ability, why would you ever play as DK?
No, don't you bring your intelligent game design crap here. I wanted to play as Diddy. :x
But seriously, I think they could've found a way to make Diddy extremely viable as an alternative to DK without making him overall better. But I can forgive them because of the absolutely fantastic level design.
And by forgive them I mean I'll keep on playing the hell out of it and buy the sequel even if Diddy isn't playable in Single Player again.
Gennenalyse Rueben on
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Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
I understand, though, because I wanted my mofukkin swordfish up in this game. Rambi is boss and all, but ENGUARDE IS WAY BETTER FUCK YOU
What I'm taking is how distilled the game feels. Like the characters available, you've got just a couple of Kong characters, one rideable mount (who doesn't even appear all that often), and that's pretty much it. It makes the excellent levels and their quotient of holy-crap-what-just-happened-I've-never-seen-this-before that much more striking.
Maybe an interesting compromise would have been some levels designed to be plyaed as Diddy only, thus allowing level design to be catered to Diddy rather than Donkey.
Something that's actually pissed me off is the lead-up to the final boss:
(nothing really all that spoilery, but will use discretion anyway)
You get Diddy as per the usual before hand and go through a two minute rocket barrel stage. Upon ending, there is a cutscene, if you still have Diddy, with him there with DK. However, if you die on the boss, you don't get Diddy back. It's an unnecessary handicap and really kind of bad.
oh, also
8-K talk
Five Monkey Trial is nothing compared to Animal Antics. Just gonna throw that out there. Not nearly as good.
Posts
I hate it when games are forced to have motion control just for the sake of having motion control. They really have no place here.
Are you holding B to run with nunchuk controls? Because you don't have to. Running is automatic with the nunchukas long as you're holding all the way right or left. You only have to hold 2 if you're using the wiimote.
This game so far is better then anything Rare ever did, which is saying something as I generally like the first two DKC games despite some rather questionable level design bits.
Got the 10 million figure from wikipedia, but then I checked their sources and they weren't reliable. According to this link - http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Metroid_Prime - Metroid Prime sold about 2 million worldwide which is more believable.
I still think DKCR is going to have mediocre sales since the license is far past its prime and it doesn't really do anything to stand out, but it's obvious that I'm not convincing anyone so I'll stop. We'll see what happens when the next NPD report comes out.
Zeboyd Games Development Blog
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire, Facebook : Zeboyd Games
I'm up to world 7 now, and this is honestly one of the most brilliant games I've ever played. This world, in particular, is just so well-designed. The music, art direction, everything is just breathtaking. Once Fear Factory and, later, Life in the Mines kicked in, I couldn't stop smiling.
Which leads me to this: Has anyone invented a controller where "waggle" is mapped to a button? Because seriously, I'd buy one in a heartbeat for games like this...
Really though, I don't think a lot of games rely strictly on generic "shake," there's a lot of directional thrusting and movement out there that would limit the utility of such a controller.
As with most of you, I hate the waggle. It bothers me so much that I'm tempted to rip open a Wiimote and slap an extra button on there myself. I can accept it in mediocre games, but when one of the best platformers I've seen in the past decade has it, I just want to walk out into the street and scream. This isn't like someone using poop instead of icing. This is like having an absolutely perfect cake, but you're just getting over a cold so it doesn't taste right. There's nothing wrong with the game (as least as far as I've played), but I'm not going to like it as much as I should if I can't interact with it properly.
Ok, rant over. The game is still awesome and worth the frustration of that one thing.
Overall, it was everything I wanted it to be. Just a blast, and incredibly nostalgic.
Coming from someone who has hated almost every wii game because of shitty waggle controls (Twilight Princess comes to mind) with the exception of SMG1/2 I have to say DKCR is pretty good when it comes to waggle. And it's not obnoxiously stuffed in like some games do, my first time hopping in a barrel for some reason I instinctively waggled the controller only to find out I just had to press A, thank you DKCR thank you.
But yeah I played through the first world and the few deaths I've had can't be blamed on motion controls. Also the game is very, very pretty. If I can't unlock everything before my rental's up this might become a xmas gift for myself.
but man this game is awesome. I'm not really minding the motion controls that much other than feeling like I need more room to be able to do a roll.
Are you fucking shitting me.
You're fucking shitting me right.
Ok no, you're not. It turns out I'm just an enormous dipshit.
Thanks for giving a shortbus rider some pro pointers dude, you are my hero.
I think the sideways Wiimote controls for NSMBW were just fine though and have never been bothered with playing a game that way honestly.
As an aside, anybody have any particular questions they'd like me to ask when I go see Retro tomorrow? I doubt there will be very many there, but I'll try to ask what I can.
I guess they'd be tightlipped about what they're up to next. Actually I'd be interested to know what happened to those guys who left to form a new company just before the economic crisis hit.
Are you doing an interview for a site? Could you link me when it's posted up.
FF14: ARR
FF14: ARR
Oh that would just be classic.
Actually a legitimate question I'd be interested in is if they could say just how much David Wise or any of the others who worked on the original DKC soundtrack helped with this. I think it's just sort of unconfirmed that they got Wise to help. I'd like a definitive answer now that the game is out to just how much he helped, if at all.
Ask them why they left Diddy unplayable in Single Player. It legitimately confuses me and is one of the only real issues I have about the game.
And I actually asked about Other M when I met the employee, when I asked if there was a chance of them returning to Metroid and how much more I enjoyed Prime than Other M. The answer was very diplomatic indeed, but this employee felt like it would be a very long time before Retro returned to Metroid if they ever did at all, and I got the feeling that their thoughts on Other M are in line with how many others feel.
The "thinktank" company? Yeah, it's dead. Because it was stupid.
Just remember that even if you say you aren't doing it for any site they always have to assume that you could just tweet it and then bam whatever they said is out there. It'll hit every news site around as an official Retro statement or whatever, so any question you ask, if you even get a chance to, will have to pass their test of "Would this be okay to have out there IF it ever got out." That's why if you ask them anything you have to play it safe and not ask anything that could get them in trouble. If you ask them something like "Was it hard to come up with the idea for the main bad guys in DKCR?" or "Did you ever consider making the game easier for gamers these days, or did you always want it to be just as difficult as it turned out to be?" then they probably wouldn't have any problems answering them. You gotta throw lowballs you know?
DONKEY KONG is on like DONKEY KONG.
I could be wrong but considering that donkey kong IS donkey kong then comparing itself to itself seems kind of redundant at the least, fucking stupid if I go more in depth.
No, don't you bring your intelligent game design crap here. I wanted to play as Diddy. :x
And by forgive them I mean I'll keep on playing the hell out of it and buy the sequel even if Diddy isn't playable in Single Player again.
What I'm taking is how distilled the game feels. Like the characters available, you've got just a couple of Kong characters, one rideable mount (who doesn't even appear all that often), and that's pretty much it. It makes the excellent levels and their quotient of holy-crap-what-just-happened-I've-never-seen-this-before that much more striking.
What the fuck, Volcano world? Where the hell is my Hot-Head Bop remix?
(nothing really all that spoilery, but will use discretion anyway)
oh, also
8-K talk