I'm already sort of weary of this class system as it is... and the names are just as silly. It's funny how the tank is a ranged class. They need 1 extra class for each faction.
Sith Warrior and Jedi Knights are the tanks/dps
Sith Inquisitors and Jedi Sages/Seers are the nukers.
Bounty Hunters and Troopers are the non-Force nukers.
Imperial Agents and Smugglers do the stealthy stuff.
At this point you just need healing classes with melee/range dps lvling options. Sith Empire could get droids that use bacta beams or something, and of course with the Galactic Republic we stick with the Jedi Consular as sort of the enlightened Jedi Sage/Seer that uses the Force for healing instead of nuking.
I should copy this on to the official community's suggestion forum. If this game wants the RPG sector of the MMORPG crowd to get more interested, they need to respect RPG elements and not be just some LoS laser fest.
Pardon me for asking a potentially silly question but...
Why do you think Healing Class necessary for this game?
Horseshoe on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
I'm already sort of weary of this class system as it is... and the names are just as silly. It's funny how the tank is a ranged class. They need 1 extra class for each faction.
Sith Warrior and Jedi Knights are the tanks/dps
Sith Inquisitors and Jedi Sages/Seers are the nukers.
Bounty Hunters and Troopers are the non-Force nukers.
Imperial Agents and Smugglers do the stealthy stuff.
At this point you just need healing classes with melee/range dps lvling options. Sith Empire could get droids that use bacta beams or something, and of course with the Galactic Republic we stick with the Jedi Consular as sort of the enlightened Jedi Sage/Seer that uses the Force for healing instead of nuking.
I should copy this on to the official community's suggestion forum. If this game wants the RPG sector of the MMORPG crowd to get more interested, they need to respect RPG elements and not be just some LoS laser fest.
Pardon me for asking a potentially silly question but...
Why do you think Healing Class necessary for this game?
Well, because it's going with the Holy Trinity design, probably.
Yeah I don't see why every game needs the "Holy Trinity" design.
In my opinion it would be a nice reprieve from such a thing, and could further distinguish and MMO from...
...well most every other one out there, as far as I've seen/played.
Yeah, trust me, quite a few people were a bit disappointed that Bioware decided to innovate the storytelling but do nothing to the stagnant MMO combat design.
But then again, we got Guild Wars 2 for that, so no biggie.
Yeah I don't see why every game needs the "Holy Trinity" design.
In my opinion it would be a nice reprieve from such a thing, and could further distinguish and MMO from...
...well most every other one out there, as far as I've seen/played.
Yeah, trust me, quite a few people were a bit disappointed that Bioware decided to innovate the storytelling but do nothing to the stagnant MMO combat design.
But then again, we got Guild Wars 2 for that, so no biggie.
Unfortunately, as much as I love Star Wars...
From what I've seen of both games so far, If I only got to buy one?
Quick, decisive, tactical, to-the-death encounters (hey, like in the movies!) are something I'd like more than a combat that's protracted by "healing".
I'll understand all the holy trinity hate after I've seen one that doesn't use that system that isn't a) awful (yeah, sorry, planetside and EVE go here for me, I didn't like those at all) and b) didn't fail outright (Tabula Rasa, Auto Assault, a billion other MMO 'great ideas' go here).
I mean, shit works. I get some people are all 'want something new' but in so many cases it seems I've seen people do something different for the sake of something different, not because it actually works. I like the idea of GW2 as well, but in my honest opinion it's probably got a 50/50 chance of being outright unplayable just because they're having to introduce a wholly new system. And I'm probably being generous. Will they pull it off? They could. I'm just not going to put down bets on it.
So yeah, is there anything other to the trinity hate than 'it's oooold'? Games are old. Go outside. Do something new.
Astale on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
Holy Trinity isn't terrible because it's old, it's terrible because it's stupid and lazy. I'd prefer a system where everyone needs to dodge attacks and make sure they stay alive than a system where one guy stands still at the front, another guy stands still in the back spamming heals on the first guy and couple more guys stand in the back shooting away.
That's mob design though. I've fought plenty of well-designed encounters/bosses in games using the holy trinity that didn't do that at all. It's not using the trinity that is lazy, it's game design in general that would be lazy in those cases.
Astale on
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
I don't think it's really possible at all to tell what the game "is like" based on videos released at this point. There really needs to be a "bullshot" type of term for pre-release videos that purport to show "gameplay."
Anyway, I'm not sure what is really wrong with the 'holy trinity' style of gameplay. The real problem with it is regimentation of players, but any MMO with complex PvE mechanics is going to include that to some extent. Scenarios that require multiple players working in parallel to defeat are either 1) really boring or 2) require people to play specific roles. There's nothing wrong with this, and it can be well done as long as the designers aren't holding up oldschool EQ raiding as the model.
The games that have avoided the "holy trinity" design seem to have either been pvp centric or really easy/simplistic.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Holy Trinity isn't terrible because it's old, it's terrible because it's stupid and lazy. I'd prefer a system where everyone needs to dodge attacks and make sure they stay alive than a system where one guy stands still at the front, another guy stands still in the back spamming heals on the first guy and couple more guys stand in the back shooting away.
What you're describing is not mutually exclusive with the holy trinity setup. It's just that most implementations of it wind up with the healers being healbots that stand in the back and the damage often being ranged.
4th edition D&D shows ways you can design healers that actually get into the thick of things and do stuff besides just throwing out targeted heals.
That TOR chose to just give Sith a ranged, targeted heal is a bit disappointing though.
I'm already sort of weary of this class system as it is... and the names are just as silly. It's funny how the tank is a ranged class. They need 1 extra class for each faction.
Sith Warrior and Jedi Knights are the tanks/dps
Sith Inquisitors and Jedi Sages/Seers are the nukers.
Bounty Hunters and Troopers are the non-Force nukers.
Imperial Agents and Smugglers do the stealthy stuff.
At this point you just need healing classes with melee/range dps lvling options. Sith Empire could get droids that use bacta beams or something, and of course with the Galactic Republic we stick with the Jedi Consular as sort of the enlightened Jedi Sage/Seer that uses the Force for healing instead of nuking.
I should copy this on to the official community's suggestion forum. If this game wants the RPG sector of the MMORPG crowd to get more interested, they need to respect RPG elements and not be just some LoS laser fest.
What's wrong with range tanks? The theme behind tanks isn't that they have huge shields and swing a sword, it's that they can soak up damage and keep the enemies attention. Range from target shouldn't be an issue.
WoW has used range tanks on occasion and those encounters are usually pretty fun.
I also like that they are adding two subclasses for each class. I want to play as a tank. So most likely Jedi Guardian for me, but maybe a Trooper. Or both.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Holy Trinity isn't terrible because it's old, it's terrible because it's stupid and lazy. I'd prefer a system where everyone needs to dodge attacks and make sure they stay alive than a system where one guy stands still at the front, another guy stands still in the back spamming heals on the first guy and couple more guys stand in the back shooting away.
What you're describing is not mutually exclusive with the holy trinity setup. It's just that most implementations of it wind up with the healers being healbots that stand in the back and the damage often being ranged.
4th edition D&D shows ways you can design healers that actually get into the thick of things and do stuff besides just throwing out targeted heals.
That TOR chose to just give Sith a ranged, targeted heal is a bit disappointing though.
Both light sides have a healer. The councilor has a healing spec and I think we saw the smuggler toss out a heal also in one of the videos. So I doubt it's mutually exclusive.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Holy Trinity isn't terrible because it's old, it's terrible because it's stupid and lazy. I'd prefer a system where everyone needs to dodge attacks and make sure they stay alive than a system where one guy stands still at the front, another guy stands still in the back spamming heals on the first guy and couple more guys stand in the back shooting away.
What you're describing is not mutually exclusive with the holy trinity setup. It's just that most implementations of it wind up with the healers being healbots that stand in the back and the damage often being ranged.
4th edition D&D shows ways you can design healers that actually get into the thick of things and do stuff besides just throwing out targeted heals.
That TOR chose to just give Sith a ranged, targeted heal is a bit disappointing though.
Both light sides have a healer. The councilor has a healing spec and I think we saw the smuggler toss out a heal also in one of the videos. So I doubt it's mutually exclusive.
I meant that "just gave a standard healbot ability with the Sith," not that they "gave just the Sith" that ability.
If there was any place they could have used a more proactive approach to healing, it was with the Inquisitor. I would have loved to see something like a buff they tossed on someone that would let them heal as they did more damage to an enemy or at least more focused on damage prevention than flat reactive healing. Not to say that isn't still possible, but I'll be disappointed if the final skill list reads Dark Gift, Greater Dark Gift, Chain Dark Gift . . .
Was there some point when they started releasing info where SWTOR didn't seem like WoW in Space?
I'm just wondering if there was some sort of gameplay innovation lie that Bioware snuck out there.
Anyway, I'm not sure what is really wrong with the 'holy trinity' style of gameplay. The real problem with it is regimentation of players, but any MMO with complex PvE mechanics is going to include that to some extent. Scenarios that require multiple players working in parallel to defeat are either 1) really boring or 2) require people to play specific roles. There's nothing wrong with this, and it can be well done as long as the designers aren't holding up oldschool EQ raiding as the model.
This ultimately was my problem with Champions Online. With no specialization, nine times out of ten it's a dogpile of damage by everybody with the occasional pitstop to heal. It was just bland.
This is mostly a problem with CO though, not necessarily non-specialized systems.
Well, thing with CO was, everyone was whining that they didn't want to have to rely on a healer for heals, or a tank for aggro control, or have to be DPS to kill anything. End result was they let people be all those things so the strong/well geared/well built toons could solo everything in the entire game, and the weak ones just added onto the dogpile until they won.
Really, CO's system makes me yearn for CoX's system (which, while not holy trinity exactly, had clearly regimented roles for players to fill). Only way they could have really fixed it was expand their stances system to affect how every single power worked so that you could still have any power you wanted but not be awsome at them all at the same time rendering the game ridiculously easy.
Was there some point when they started releasing info where SWTOR didn't seem like WoW in Space?
I'm just wondering if there was some sort of gameplay innovation lie that Bioware snuck out there.
They seem to be saying things in developer interviews like... that it is going to be so "innovative", "immersive", "like no other MMO you've played", and that "your choices will really perisist and matter".
You know, similar lies that we're told anytime devs talk about an upcoming MMO.
Well, thing with CO was, everyone was whining that they didn't want to have to rely on a healer for heals, or a tank for aggro control, or have to be DPS to kill anything. End result was they let people be all those things so the strong/well geared/well built toons could solo everything in the entire game, and the weak ones just added onto the dogpile until they won.
Yeah, that was my point. They were forced to weaken stances to the point they didn't matter, because people didn't want specialization at all. The problem is, combat was even more boring otherwise.
They seem to be saying things in developer interviews like... that it is going to be so "innovative", "immersive", "like no other MMO you've played", and that "your choices will really perisist and matter".
You know, similar lies that we're told anytime devs talk about an upcoming MMO.
Well yeah, but all that's been about the story. From day one, Bioware's been like STORY ZOMG! I was just wondering where the trinity sidebar came from. It's not like they've been pimping an innovative combat system like Guild Wars 2, and then given us WoW. They've been saying, OH HEY DO YOU LIKE TEH STORIEZ, and then showed us videos of WoW in Space when it comes to combat.
Honestly, it wasn't the combat system that bothered me about WoW. It worked in a pretty fun way. I hope SWTOR does the same while fixing a lot of the out of combat problems I did have while providing the star wars atmosphere and story that Bioware is really into and known for. Maybe I'm just easily satiated, but there you go.
Honestly, it wasn't the combat system that bothered me about WoW. It worked in a pretty fun way. I hope SWTOR does the same while fixing a lot of the out of combat problems I did have while providing the star wars atmosphere and story that Bioware is really into and known for. Maybe I'm just easily satiated, but there you go.
Well, this is kind of my view on things as well. I never got into WoW, but that had nothing to do with the combat. The combat was fine. A lot of the quests on the other hand annoyed the hell out of me, anything 'go kill ten boars'-ish. I'm sure parts of WoW would have been great if I'd had the patience to wade through the bullshit, but the story just wasn't compelling enough for me to want to do that. Swtor on the other hand seems like it's going to give me a compelling reason to watch what's going on. Will I have to kill 10 womprats to proceed? Probably. But you know, given Bioware, I'm probably going to cry for that 10th womprat or something. Poor lil' thing caught up in the military-industrial complex. Paragon Interrupt: Put it out of it's misery!
I joke but that IS pretty much how I look at it. I'm not looking for something grand and innovating. I've done that. I beat it in a week then moved on. I'm looking for something GOOD. This looks like it might be good. Plus it seems like someone added Starfox to it. I liked Starfox, so that's cool too.
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I like it.
Pardon me for asking a potentially silly question but...
Why do you think Healing Class necessary for this game?
Well, because it's going with the Holy Trinity design, probably.
Also, Xehalus, your suggestions are terrible.
In my opinion it would be a nice reprieve from such a thing, and could further distinguish and MMO from...
...well most every other one out there, as far as I've seen/played.
Yeah, trust me, quite a few people were a bit disappointed that Bioware decided to innovate the storytelling but do nothing to the stagnant MMO combat design.
But then again, we got Guild Wars 2 for that, so no biggie.
How does the Sith Empire even survive an encounter at this point... does anybody know?
What do you mean, exactly? Story-wise, they've got massive armies and the Mandalorians on their side.
Unfortunately, as much as I love Star Wars...
From what I've seen of both games so far, If I only got to buy one?
I'd probably be leaning toward GW2 right now.
There's that whole thing about how they've taken the shit out of the Galaxy so far.
I would think the designers would have them in mind for bringing some serious shit to an encounter.
And I don't think healing classes are a make-or-break for a "win".
Well if it's healers Xehalus is worried about, the Inquisitor is a healer.
Quick, decisive, tactical, to-the-death encounters (hey, like in the movies!) are something I'd like more than a combat that's protracted by "healing".
Groups have four people in them, everyone gets to bring a companion.
Let's go, Sith Battle Droid.
Time to kill us some Jedi Infidel Scumbags.
Wizard?!
i mean, at some point you need to use some more vocabulary before every class sounds like they have the same names.
"Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen."
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
And by forever I mean "five seconds, then I forget about it because Star Wars nowadays is shit".
I mean, shit works. I get some people are all 'want something new' but in so many cases it seems I've seen people do something different for the sake of something different, not because it actually works. I like the idea of GW2 as well, but in my honest opinion it's probably got a 50/50 chance of being outright unplayable just because they're having to introduce a wholly new system. And I'm probably being generous. Will they pull it off? They could. I'm just not going to put down bets on it.
So yeah, is there anything other to the trinity hate than 'it's oooold'? Games are old. Go outside. Do something new.
It looks more like a momentum-based-with-cover-system-mechanics-encounter-session.
Anyway, I'm not sure what is really wrong with the 'holy trinity' style of gameplay. The real problem with it is regimentation of players, but any MMO with complex PvE mechanics is going to include that to some extent. Scenarios that require multiple players working in parallel to defeat are either 1) really boring or 2) require people to play specific roles. There's nothing wrong with this, and it can be well done as long as the designers aren't holding up oldschool EQ raiding as the model.
The games that have avoided the "holy trinity" design seem to have either been pvp centric or really easy/simplistic.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
What you're describing is not mutually exclusive with the holy trinity setup. It's just that most implementations of it wind up with the healers being healbots that stand in the back and the damage often being ranged.
4th edition D&D shows ways you can design healers that actually get into the thick of things and do stuff besides just throwing out targeted heals.
That TOR chose to just give Sith a ranged, targeted heal is a bit disappointing though.
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3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
What's wrong with range tanks? The theme behind tanks isn't that they have huge shields and swing a sword, it's that they can soak up damage and keep the enemies attention. Range from target shouldn't be an issue.
WoW has used range tanks on occasion and those encounters are usually pretty fun.
I also like that they are adding two subclasses for each class. I want to play as a tank. So most likely Jedi Guardian for me, but maybe a Trooper. Or both.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Both light sides have a healer. The councilor has a healing spec and I think we saw the smuggler toss out a heal also in one of the videos. So I doubt it's mutually exclusive.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Pretty sure those bad boys were ranged. How'd the word ever come to be associated with a melee damage absorber? Shoulda called them "turtles" instead.
I meant that "just gave a standard healbot ability with the Sith," not that they "gave just the Sith" that ability.
If there was any place they could have used a more proactive approach to healing, it was with the Inquisitor. I would have loved to see something like a buff they tossed on someone that would let them heal as they did more damage to an enemy or at least more focused on damage prevention than flat reactive healing. Not to say that isn't still possible, but I'll be disappointed if the final skill list reads Dark Gift, Greater Dark Gift, Chain Dark Gift . . .
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3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
I'm just wondering if there was some sort of gameplay innovation lie that Bioware snuck out there.
This ultimately was my problem with Champions Online. With no specialization, nine times out of ten it's a dogpile of damage by everybody with the occasional pitstop to heal. It was just bland.
This is mostly a problem with CO though, not necessarily non-specialized systems.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
Really, CO's system makes me yearn for CoX's system (which, while not holy trinity exactly, had clearly regimented roles for players to fill). Only way they could have really fixed it was expand their stances system to affect how every single power worked so that you could still have any power you wanted but not be awsome at them all at the same time rendering the game ridiculously easy.
They seem to be saying things in developer interviews like... that it is going to be so "innovative", "immersive", "like no other MMO you've played", and that "your choices will really perisist and matter".
You know, similar lies that we're told anytime devs talk about an upcoming MMO.
Well yeah, but all that's been about the story. From day one, Bioware's been like STORY ZOMG! I was just wondering where the trinity sidebar came from. It's not like they've been pimping an innovative combat system like Guild Wars 2, and then given us WoW. They've been saying, OH HEY DO YOU LIKE TEH STORIEZ, and then showed us videos of WoW in Space when it comes to combat.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
"Turtles" is too many syllables for most MMO players to handle.
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Well, this is kind of my view on things as well. I never got into WoW, but that had nothing to do with the combat. The combat was fine. A lot of the quests on the other hand annoyed the hell out of me, anything 'go kill ten boars'-ish. I'm sure parts of WoW would have been great if I'd had the patience to wade through the bullshit, but the story just wasn't compelling enough for me to want to do that. Swtor on the other hand seems like it's going to give me a compelling reason to watch what's going on. Will I have to kill 10 womprats to proceed? Probably. But you know, given Bioware, I'm probably going to cry for that 10th womprat or something. Poor lil' thing caught up in the military-industrial complex. Paragon Interrupt: Put it out of it's misery!
I joke but that IS pretty much how I look at it. I'm not looking for something grand and innovating. I've done that. I beat it in a week then moved on. I'm looking for something GOOD. This looks like it might be good. Plus it seems like someone added Starfox to it. I liked Starfox, so that's cool too.