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Is there any way to get compensation for this? (Gatefuckery [Live Nation])
Fagatron
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So I went to see Dream Theater and Iron Maiden tonight and leading up to it I was really excited about seeing Dream Theater live for the first time even though we were going so my girlfriend could see Maiden live. I saw Iron Maiden just two years ago during Somewhere Back in Time which was a bigger/better tour.
The concert was great James Labrie's vocals were much better than I expected live and Dream Theater in general sounded a lot better than I expected. Iron Maiden was fucking great. Bruce Dickinson is still the best showman I know of. He's more energetic and acrobatic than any guy over 40 has any right to be, and he has an incredible range and sings with more power than anyone I know of. He's actually gotten better than he was back when most of the stuff they're famous for was recorded in my opinion. He's also incredibly charming and clever and it's a delight to listen to him shoot the shit in-between/during songs.
The problem is we missed 30 minutes of Dream Theater's set even though we arrived 45 minutes early.
For some reason the security/organizers let everyone line up in front of the low capacity gate with two ticket scanners that was near the public parking while there was another high capacity gate (an entire five ticket scanners) over near the VIP Parking section that was apparently available to everyone, but nobody knew it because it was so far from where everybody was that it was assumed because of the short line that it was either VIP Parking people only or a line for Will Call.
In addition to this fuckery they didn't even open the gates until a half hour before the show started instead of the standard hour. So when you get there 45 minutes early it's only natural to queue up in the giant line that everyone else is getting into and assume things will be okay because you're 45 minutes early. Within five minutes of queuing up we were roughly in the middle of it, this was a line of probably 7000+ people.
Finally ten minutes before showtime they started informing people that this line was trying to all fit through a low capacity gate and things just weren't going to work. By this time we were getting pretty near the end of the line, there were actual rails and everything, and there was such a stampede to the other line it made no sense to wait in another, even longer line.
It took forty more minutes in line before we were both able to get in, at some point they introduced a female security person and if you were equipped with a vagina you could cut the gigantic line. Somehow I still got patted down by a gigantic woman with a mannish face but SENSITIVITY.
I'm going to say when we got in the Pavillion was still only at half capacity. By the time Dream Theater finished it had jumped to about 3/4 capacity. By the time everyone got in if it wasn't a sold out show it was damn close. I certainly couldn't see an empty seat anywhere and it was almost elbow to elbow up on the lawn.
This means that probably half the audience (6000 people) missed the same amount of the set we did, 3000 people didn't get to see Dream Theater at all. Even with the thirty minute intermission by the time Iron Maiden started there were still around 500 people outside.
I know this because in between songs Bruce commented that it was a much larger crowd than last time and that "Right before I took the stage they said there were 12,000 people in the stands and the queue was still around the block!" I looked the capacity of the Pavillion we were at up (Sleeptrain Pavillion in Concord, CA) and if that's true and it was at near max capacity (and it was) then that leaves around 500 people missing the beginning of the Maiden show.
How is that an acceptable from the only major event promoter in the US. Shouldn't they have had an idea of how long it would take to shuffle that many people through security and ticket scanners since they do this all the time? And shouldn't they have a pretty good idea that the event was near sold out from presales? The line we were in was completely composed of people who already had their tickets so it's not like there was a surprise turnout. And why the fuck would they open the gates half an hour later than usual to a near sold out crowd?
Any reasonable person would have delayed the show once they'd realized how catastrophically they'd overestimated their ability to get people inside but they started right on time. It's fucking bullshit. That's a lot of people who paid a lot of fucking money for their tickets (LAWN seats cost $50 after bullshit convenience charges) who missed a good chunk of the show they paid to see because of their fuckup.
It was pretty disappointing even though I had a great time. Iron Maiden's my favorite band. Dream Theater, while not my second favorite, is definitely up there in terms of my listening enjoyment, and I was really excited to get to see them live WITH IRON MAIDEN. It should have been a fucking amazing concert but it ended up being kind of a let down. I'd like to be able to say I won't ever buy tickets from Live Nation again, but I can't really now that they've merged with Ticketmaster, at least, not if I want to ever see live music at a venue larger than a club ever again.
TLDR; Live Nation tried to fit 12,500 people through seven choke points in half an hour, it didn't work at all, a quarter of the audience missed half the show.
The concert was great James Labrie's vocals were much better than I expected live and Dream Theater in general sounded a lot better than I expected. Iron Maiden was fucking great. Bruce Dickinson is still the best showman I know of. He's more energetic and acrobatic than any guy over 40 has any right to be, and he has an incredible range and sings with more power than anyone I know of. He's actually gotten better than he was back when most of the stuff they're famous for was recorded in my opinion. He's also incredibly charming and clever and it's a delight to listen to him shoot the shit in-between/during songs.
The problem is we missed 30 minutes of Dream Theater's set even though we arrived 45 minutes early.
For some reason the security/organizers let everyone line up in front of the low capacity gate with two ticket scanners that was near the public parking while there was another high capacity gate (an entire five ticket scanners) over near the VIP Parking section that was apparently available to everyone, but nobody knew it because it was so far from where everybody was that it was assumed because of the short line that it was either VIP Parking people only or a line for Will Call.
In addition to this fuckery they didn't even open the gates until a half hour before the show started instead of the standard hour. So when you get there 45 minutes early it's only natural to queue up in the giant line that everyone else is getting into and assume things will be okay because you're 45 minutes early. Within five minutes of queuing up we were roughly in the middle of it, this was a line of probably 7000+ people.
Finally ten minutes before showtime they started informing people that this line was trying to all fit through a low capacity gate and things just weren't going to work. By this time we were getting pretty near the end of the line, there were actual rails and everything, and there was such a stampede to the other line it made no sense to wait in another, even longer line.
It took forty more minutes in line before we were both able to get in, at some point they introduced a female security person and if you were equipped with a vagina you could cut the gigantic line. Somehow I still got patted down by a gigantic woman with a mannish face but SENSITIVITY.
I'm going to say when we got in the Pavillion was still only at half capacity. By the time Dream Theater finished it had jumped to about 3/4 capacity. By the time everyone got in if it wasn't a sold out show it was damn close. I certainly couldn't see an empty seat anywhere and it was almost elbow to elbow up on the lawn.
This means that probably half the audience (6000 people) missed the same amount of the set we did, 3000 people didn't get to see Dream Theater at all. Even with the thirty minute intermission by the time Iron Maiden started there were still around 500 people outside.
I know this because in between songs Bruce commented that it was a much larger crowd than last time and that "Right before I took the stage they said there were 12,000 people in the stands and the queue was still around the block!" I looked the capacity of the Pavillion we were at up (Sleeptrain Pavillion in Concord, CA) and if that's true and it was at near max capacity (and it was) then that leaves around 500 people missing the beginning of the Maiden show.
How is that an acceptable from the only major event promoter in the US. Shouldn't they have had an idea of how long it would take to shuffle that many people through security and ticket scanners since they do this all the time? And shouldn't they have a pretty good idea that the event was near sold out from presales? The line we were in was completely composed of people who already had their tickets so it's not like there was a surprise turnout. And why the fuck would they open the gates half an hour later than usual to a near sold out crowd?
Any reasonable person would have delayed the show once they'd realized how catastrophically they'd overestimated their ability to get people inside but they started right on time. It's fucking bullshit. That's a lot of people who paid a lot of fucking money for their tickets (LAWN seats cost $50 after bullshit convenience charges) who missed a good chunk of the show they paid to see because of their fuckup.
It was pretty disappointing even though I had a great time. Iron Maiden's my favorite band. Dream Theater, while not my second favorite, is definitely up there in terms of my listening enjoyment, and I was really excited to get to see them live WITH IRON MAIDEN. It should have been a fucking amazing concert but it ended up being kind of a let down. I'd like to be able to say I won't ever buy tickets from Live Nation again, but I can't really now that they've merged with Ticketmaster, at least, not if I want to ever see live music at a venue larger than a club ever again.
TLDR; Live Nation tried to fit 12,500 people through seven choke points in half an hour, it didn't work at all, a quarter of the audience missed half the show.
Fagatron on
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Other than that, no.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
At best you have your state's consumer affairs bureau (or possibly a federal one, not sure how it works in the US) to complain to. You can possibly request a refund from the ticket vendor and threaten them with a complaint to such. Some companies will cave, others won't. Either way, familiarise yourself with your jurisdictions' fair trading laws before you get too involved. Figure out if a) you've got a legally actionable complaint and b) whether the cost of pursuing it is worth it. Some consumer affairs places will help out with the financial side of pursuing a case, too, but others won't.
Dun think you are going to get any money back unless you are prepared to multiply the effort you put into this thread by A THOUSAND.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Live nation is utter shit. I got there 5 hours early to tailgate. I was about 200 people back from the very front of the line and from the word go it was a cluster fuck. They only had 2 male searcher guys at the main gate. So they split the line up 5 ways with 3 fat ass ladies who could only scan women SCREAMING at everyone to cram into the 2 male ques. Of course at a maiden rock show there is going to be a 80 20 split of male to female but luckily live nation thought to bring 60% female screeners.
Mean while, You are allowed to bring NOTHING inside. No blankets to sit on, No ponchos if it rains, No glow sticks, No matches, No lighters, Of course no food or drink, And pray to god they don't think your cell phone is a camera.
I got in and to the front of the lawn section about 20 minutes prior to show time and the place was utterly empty. When Dream theater took the stage it was empty. They played for about 45 minutes and maiden took a 45 minute break and it still was only maybe 2/3rds full. Over 25k people showed up and I bet not even 20k were there for the opening song.
As for advice I would say try and boycott live nation. Easier said then done. This is the first US concert I have gone to in years and it was managed terribly. Much better to see maiden at other venues. This arena was terribly designed. It took us over 3 hours to get out of there. One 2 lane road into and out of the area. That is mind boggling dumb. You would think in LA they would be used to building roads 4+ lanes deep.
Here are some pictures illustrating how long it took for everyone to fill in.
This is while dream theater is playing. Behind me was only 4 or 5 people deep
And this towards the end of maiden. Behind me was about 100 people deep, All the way past the beer tents which were 60 yards away.
For a second I thought you meant the same show in Concord and then I read LA and that just made it worse. If they've been doing it this way at every show that is the stupidest thing that ever stupided and makes me feel like we should get some sort of class action lawsuit going.
And like I said, if I want to see Iron Maiden or any other act that plays in a venue larger than a nightclub I have to do it through Live Nation. They're the only game in town since they merged with Ticketmaster, they have a monopoly. It's like a rape demon merged with a rape demon to make a super rape demon and there's jack shit anyone besides the government (antitrust) can do about it and they (government) approved the merger because somehow it's not a monopoly in their eyes (nightclubs have bands I guess, shiiiiiit).
how about you just not give them any more of your money for doing a terrible job like normal people do?
because then you dont get to go to any shows in the US
they have a fucking stranglehold on the entire ticket market, so the normal "just dont give them money, they'll eventually get the idea" won't work
Even if you "win", it just means the attorneys behind the suit (if they even feel it's worth pursuing) will make any money while the settlement means all the claimants get something like a $5 coupon for music downloads or some other, equally absurd reward. And they keep doing what they're doing while slightly modifying their terms and conditions or some such.
And there are always alternatives.
If the big name bands you like only play shows that are promoted by Live Nation, then don't go to their shows. Of course, if plenty of other people still feel like paying for their events, then you're just part of a minority that no one really cares about, but at least you're not blowing your cash on poorly managed events. This is just fundamental economics. If someone's doing a terrible job, just stop giving them your business. It doesn't mean they've broken any laws or agreements.
I'm sorry, but this is just a lazy, defeatist mentality. I've been to dozens of shows in the US in the past year, only three times have I bought tickets via ticketmaster (Roger Waters, Pavement, and a stage show in Las Vegas that wasn't even a concert), and none of them were at any of the three LiveNation-owned venues in the area. Prior to those recent purchases, the last time I bought a ticket through TicketMaster was to see TV on the Radio in October 2008. It is definitely possible to boycott LiveNation/TicketMaster, you just need to know your alternatives.
the reason that the normal "don't give them money, they'll get the idea" doesn't work is because of your exact mentality. no one is determined enough to actually boycott them.
I'm fully aware of the issues of the pseudo-monopoly formed by the LiveNation/Ticketmaster merger, but the problem is that they are only the monopoly because smaller ticket groups and production companies lack the money to fight them. If you buy tickets through independent production groups at independent venues, their revenue increases, and they are able to book bigger named acts in increasingly larger venues. If you continue to consider TicketMaster shows your only choice, your local independent groups won't have the revenue they need to expand.
nice ideals and all
but the only person that will suffer will be you
https://medium.com/@alascii
Look at all the words printed on the back of your ticket. Those words were written by a lot of smart lawyers who were paid by Live Nation, a company that knows deep down, that they aren't a "value add".
Hi5
I'm certainly not suffering because I'm being practical and not shelling out $50 for a poorly managed show where I can't bring a bottle of water or a blanket into the venue. Instead I go to smaller, local shows like the Capitol Hill Block Party where I can still catch plenty of great acts but I don't get strip searched on the way in and it's either $25 for a single day or $60 for all three days. Great value, great music, and I can bring my stuff in with me and there are several bars within the venue for me to drink at during the whole event. Much more fun.
Kind of the opposite of ideals actually, in that my solution is entirely practical and results in me having much more fun for my money and rewards organizations that put on good shows. Duh.
I totally agree with that, cheap local acts are great and more people should support them.
But you know as well as I do that it's not the same thing as seeing Kanye, Daft Punk, Iron Maiden or whatever your HUGE STAR of choice is. And when you want to see these acts, then your have to decide what's more important to you:
a massive douchebag company getting it's share of your $100
you getting to see an amazing act that you love and have no idea when will be returning to your jerk-water city.
To me, the choice in that case is pretty obvious.
https://medium.com/@alascii
I do this as much as I can, but I live in fucking orlando. Acts that come here are few and far between already and 9 times out of 10 i'm going to have to put up with tickmasters bullshit. Any local place big enough to attract a somewhat popular band uses them around here.
For you it is. I rarely go to such shows because it's such a pain in the ass that my enjoyment relative to cost is so low. But what I'm seeing you say is that it is worth it for you, so where's the problem? The fundamental question is, are you willing to pay the stated amount for the goods or services? If yes, then you're tacitly stating that you feel it's worth it. If you feel you're being ripped off and you still pay out, then one has to wonder why you hate yourself. Of course, there are some services and goods that are considered fundamental enough that they're exceptions, like health care or utilities. But you don't need concerts, no one's forcing you to go.
Try living in Miami. We are so out of the way that almost no one comes here. Ft. Lauderdale is the closest regular venue.
If people are willing to pay it, actually yes it does. Consumers can't keep coming back to fork out the dough while also complaining about forking out the dough. That is what is called being a hypocrite and is precisely why no one's going to take you people seriously. They can't hear you over all the people in line to fork out the dough.
by this logic, Microsoft should have never been sued for antitrust violations. Granted, a computer and a ticket are not quite the same thing, but saying that if the market will support it, its okay to do is bullshit logic when there is no alternative, and therefore no competition.
Next time don't assume and go check. You're likely not going to get any kind of refund for this. You can try calling or writing an email to the concert organizers but I doubt you'll get anything back.
Except that Microsoft actually broke the law there, as determined in a court of law. What law are you claiming has been broken here? This is a case of the venue just being poorly managed. The answer to someone doing a shoddy job is to not give them more of your money. Doing a crappy job is not a crime.
Also, I bet LiveNation will fight it tooth and nail.
I won a chargeback dispute against a promoter once, but that was a complete clusterfuck where half of their scheduled events were shut down by the police.
In this particular instance? Nothing. But this kind of service has come about because ticketmaster and livenation dont care. they know that if you dont like it, you have no alternatives, unless you live in a large metro area
So Livenation and Ticketmaster are willing to provide a service to your area that no one else is willing to offer, you concede there doesn't appear to be any law they're breaking, so again I don't see the problem. It's either worth it and you pay, or it's not and you don't. It really is that simple. And really, the op just underestimated how long it would take to get into the venue. When I saw Pearl Jam at The Gorge a couple of years back, we got there at least a couple of hours early because we knew they'd be searching and we checked in advance on what they would and would not allow into the venue. I don't even get what the class action suit would be over if he tried to pursue one.
The reason that you have alternatives in a large metropolitan area are because people in cities have been supporting the local scene for years, allowing independent ticket retailers and promoters to grow large enough to book big acts.
The best thing you can do is find out who your local event production companies are, and support them. Nothing to do on a Friday night? Go see a band at a local venue. Chances are, they aren't in the business of booking talentless acts, so at best you'll get introduced to a new favorite, at worst you can leave early and consider your 10 dollar fee-less ticket a donation to help your local companies grow large enough to book the bands you'll be excited to see.
Google "civil liability" or "tort." The reason you can sue someone for rear-ending you is not due to statute.
Right. So that goes back to what I said about a class action. Congratulations, you win. Here's your code for $5 worth of music downloads. Thanks for playing.
It had nothing to do with the lawn seats, and I would be a helluva lot more pissed off if I'd paid four times as much for the pit and didn't get in. This effected literally everyone who came to the event, regardless of seating. It is not unreasonable to think you'll be able to get into a show on time that you get there 45 minutes early for.
12,500 seats / 7 gates / 30 minutes = 59.52 per minute
There is just no way they would ever be able to process one person per second with security checks and everything and it is completely ridiculous of them to expect to. A very conservative estimate of time per person is 20 seconds, that's without averaging for people they do more thorough searches on.
Druhim are you per chance a Libertarian because all I am reading from your posts is FREE MARKETS. Of course I go to local shows, I live in fucking San Francisco. But you are basically saying "GOT DICKED OVER BY LIVE NATION WELL THEN I GUESS YOU'RE JUST DUMB FOR BEING WILLING TO SPEND MONEY FOR BIG ACTS THAT ONLY PLAY AT THEIR VENUES." Maiden had two stops in the entire state of California this time around, one was in San Bernadino, one was in Concord, the only way to buy tickets for either was Live Nation unless you're silly enough to count third party sources like Stub Hub where they've already been bought from Live Nation and are being resold.
The idea that supporting my local venues is going to give them the spending power to take on Ticketmaster/Live Nation is absurd.
I want to say you're a troll because goddamn I am having trouble understanding your logic, but I think you're probably just a silly goose.
TL;DR: There is no way they could have expected to provide the service people paid for the way they operated (apparently) both the shows in California. To use a personal metaphor, I am an IT consultant, I don't see how this is any different than if I had loaded Windows up but failed to provide any drivers that weren't included on the disc and then charged them full price. Technically I gave them a working computer, but it is not performing to the ability advertised.
Of course, when I saw that this tour was going to have the "supar-sekrit" security on the tickets, I knew it was going to be a raging clusterfuck. Quit buying tickets to shows that do this and maybe Live Nation/Ticketmaster will quit doing it. And try for a chargeback.
The security wasn't really oppressive and I'd rather have them do pat downs than have people taking weapons into the pit. 99% of metal fans are great but then there's the asshole psychos who take advantage of the chaos to randomly injure people. I just looked at the ticket and I didn't see any mention of crazy security besides them not allowing recording devices, containers, and a few other things in. What security there was didn't stop anyone from smuggling weed and booze and lighters in though, and they didn't do anything to stop people from lighting up the night en masse with tiny flames during a couple songs.
I think I'll do this and try for a chargeback. Just read over the legalese on the ticket and I don't see anything that would excuse them from prohibiting people from seeing the show.
I did spot this jewel.
"The ticket is a revocable license to the specific seat and for the date and time (unless rescheduled) listed on the front hereof, and admission may be refused upon refunding the face amount of the ticket."
If (when) they contest the chargeback, I will challenge that they refused to allow me admission to the venue by way of their negligence for 20% of the show, and that I should only owe them the cost of 80% of the tickets I bought. I will gladly pay them $79.76 but not a penny more.
Writing the bands will have to wait for a bit though, sadly, I've got to hop a bus to Sacramento so I can ride down to LA with my family for a funeral tomorrow and I will be occupied with that until Thursday or Friday.
Maybe not Dream Theater because they get tons of fanmail I'm sure, but a good letter might have a chance to get through to a lesser act, and they might actually man a stick out of it if they are cool.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat