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[Mass Effect] Jack and the Ghost of Alenko's Past

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Posts

  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Jumping on that Team Sovereign band wagon

    Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.There is a realm of existence, so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I, am beyond your comprehension. I, am Sovereign.

    Buttcleft on
  • Ad astraAd astra Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Team Sovereign fo lyfe!

    "Your words are as hollow as your future, this exchange, is over"

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  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Sovereign has presence. He has robo-charisma

    Also you're still terrible for wanting Samara romance options. Turbbl

    Fiaryn on
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  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    But really, who does think that Harbinger was a worthwhile enemy?

    Spoit on
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  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    ME2 End Game
    Harbringer was more like an abscentee daddy. The look of the collector general after harbringer broke the link is so pittiable

    Buttcleft on
  • MblackwellMblackwell Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Sovereign has presence. He has robo-charisma

    Also you're still terrible for wanting Samara romance options. Turbbl

    As long as by terrible you mean terribly awesome, then yes... yes I am.


    I just beat Overlord. Sad business. Predictable but sad. Also I never found the last package. It was much more satisfying then Kasumi's mission. Now to sit on my ass and wait for more DLC/Mass Effect 3.

    Is there a team dedicated to just DLC, to keep the ME3 team from being distracted? I'd hate for my yearning (and everyone else's) for more content to be making progress slow.

    Mblackwell on
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  • Ad astraAd astra Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Mblackwell wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Sovereign has presence. He has robo-charisma

    Also you're still terrible for wanting Samara romance options. Turbbl

    As long as by terrible you mean terribly awesome, then yes... yes I am.


    I just beat Overlord. Sad business. Predictable but sad. Also I never found the last package. It was much more satisfying then Kasumi's mission. Now to sit on my ass and wait for more DLC/Mass Effect 3.

    Is there a team dedicated to just DLC, to keep the ME3 team from being distracted? I'd hate for my yearning (and everyone else's) for more content to be making progress slow.

    Don't take my word as one hundred percent truth, but if I remember correctly, I think a Bioware rep said that they have two teams, one that makes DLC for ME2 and another that is working on ME3.

    EDIT: [URL="http://www.vg247.com/2010/03/12/bioware-me2-content-will-be-satisfying-for-players/]Here is where I heard them say that[/URL]

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  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Most characters are already too dependent on Shepard to validate their identity, making them less interesting personalities on the whole. The last thing we needed was to send Samara down that road.

    Fiaryn on
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  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Most characters are already too dependent on Shepard to validate their identity, making them less interesting personalities on the whole. The last thing we needed was to send Samara down that road.

    I wanna screw the justicar though so, ya.

    For serious though, getting to know Samara's personality more and getting to learn more about the Justicars and her many adventures as one would be very interesting.

    Corehealer on
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  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Most characters are already too dependent on Shepard to validate their identity, making them less interesting personalities on the whole. The last thing we needed was to send Samara down that road.

    I see what you're getting at, and I think the issue is that Shepard is never allowed to show weakness. All the romance options have something they need help with that only Shepard can accomplish, but there's nothing Shepard needs. Shepard is perfect. Because of this, the romances end up feeling very lopsided.

    Stilts on
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  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Stilts wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Most characters are already too dependent on Shepard to validate their identity, making them less interesting personalities on the whole. The last thing we needed was to send Samara down that road.

    I see what you're getting at, and I think the issue is that Shepard is never allowed to show weakness. All the romance options have something they need help with that only Shepard can accomplish, but there's nothing Shepard needs. Shepard is perfect. Because of this, the romances end up feeling very lopsided.

    The exception to this is the Ashley and Kaidan romances.

    But I think that Samaras character in particular would be uniquely weakened by a romance.

    Fiaryn on
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  • EtherealEthereal Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Samara was pretty much my favorite person to talk to out of the ME2 crew. Her stories were interesting and the whole atmosphere of sitting on the floor of the observation deck was just really cool.

    Ethereal on
  • FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Samara was pretty much my favorite person to talk to out of the ME2 crew. Her stories were interesting and the whole atmosphere of sitting on the floor of the observation deck and staring at her boobs was just really cool.


    Fixed your post.

    Fairchild on
  • FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Stilts wrote: »
    I see what you're getting at, and I think the issue is that Shepard is never allowed to show weakness. All the romance options have something they need help with that only Shepard can accomplish, but there's nothing Shepard needs. Shepard is perfect. Because of this, the romances end up feeling very lopsided.
    Nonsense. Shepard needs to get his love on.

    Fairchild on
  • s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I want an option to blow that pretentious fanatic out the Normandy's airlock.

    Samara was, by far, the least interesting character in ME2. Single-minded religious crazies don't make for desirable companions, I think.

    s3rial one on
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Crazy? Hmm...maybe in the same way Lancelot of Arthurian legend is crazy. I think Samara is a deeply flawed individual who knows it and lives by a code to curtail her faults, and to repent.

    She has the worst kind of guilt to bear after all.

    Fiaryn on
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  • Ad astraAd astra Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    s3rial one wrote: »
    I want an option to blow that pretentious fanatic out the Normandy's airlock.

    Samara was, by far, the least interesting character in ME2. Single-minded religious crazies don't make for desirable companions, I think.

    What does it feel like to have such a bad opinion?

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  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    it was kind of weird that the only known ardat-yakshi in the galaxy are all her daughters, and that the pureblood asari hate is supposed to be influenced by the laughably small chance of purebloods breeding 3/hundreds of billions diseased asari

    -Tal on
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  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Stilts wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Most characters are already too dependent on Shepard to validate their identity, making them less interesting personalities on the whole. The last thing we needed was to send Samara down that road.

    I see what you're getting at, and I think the issue is that Shepard is never allowed to show weakness. All the romance options have something they need help with that only Shepard can accomplish, but there's nothing Shepard needs. Shepard is perfect. Because of this, the romances end up feeling very lopsided.

    The exception to this is the Ashley and Kaidan romances.

    But I think that Samaras character in particular would be uniquely weakened by a romance.

    Regarding Ashley and Kaiden: That's true, but only because the relationship is balanced by omission. I'd like to see a sub-quest in ME3 where Shepard gets emotionally shaken and it's up to the significant other to help straighten it out. It would be a neat reversal of what we tend to expect from dialogue trees in RPGs.

    Stilts on
    IKknkhU.gif
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    -Tal wrote: »
    it was kind of weird that the only known ardat-yakshi in the galaxy are all her daughters, and that the pureblood asari hate is supposed to be influenced by the laughably small chance of purebloods breeding 3/hundreds of billions diseased asari

    Judging by what Samara says, I suspect the pureblood hate is deliberately cultivated by the Asari government to curb the chances of Ardat-Yakshi coming to be, and thereby further preventing them from becoming well known.

    It's an image thing, they don't want the knowledge that Ardat-Yakshi exist damaging their good racial name.

    Fiaryn on
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  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    when the "you're working too hard" scene was originally shown in a dev diary next to scarred-up Shepard looking thoughtful, I thought it was part of a dream sequence Shepard had with himself dealing with Cerberus' resurrection and being savior of the galaxy against an insurmountable threat and whatnot. There are many different Shepards, but there's also universal problems to explore.

    -Tal on
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  • Ad astraAd astra Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Stilts wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Stilts wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Most characters are already too dependent on Shepard to validate their identity, making them less interesting personalities on the whole. The last thing we needed was to send Samara down that road.

    I see what you're getting at, and I think the issue is that Shepard is never allowed to show weakness. All the romance options have something they need help with that only Shepard can accomplish, but there's nothing Shepard needs. Shepard is perfect. Because of this, the romances end up feeling very lopsided.

    The exception to this is the Ashley and Kaidan romances.

    But I think that Samaras character in particular would be uniquely weakened by a romance.

    Regarding Ashley and Kaiden: That's true, but only because the relationship is balanced by omission. I'd like to see a sub-quest in ME3 where Shepard gets emotionally shaken and it's up to the significant other to help straighten it out. It would be a neat reversal of what we tend to expect from dialogue trees in RPGs.

    I can't even begin to tell you how much I want something like this to happen, Shepard is always solving his companions problems, no one ever asks what Shepard's emotional state is. Subsequently Shepard comes off about as interesting as a brick. And some of the romances come off as completely one sided, because Shepard knows everything about them, and they know nothing about Shepard.

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  • s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Crazy? Hmm...maybe in the same way Lancelot of Arthurian legend is crazy. I think Samara is a deeply flawed individual who knows it and lives by a code to curtail her faults, and to repent.

    She has the worst kind of guilt to bear after all.

    I think that's what bothers me about it. She's flawed, she knows it, and so she lives by some crazy quasi-religious, fanatical code, which makes her an even worse person.

    Jack is flawed, knows it, and is trying to get better (depending on how you treat her). Samara just ran off and joined a convent of homicidal killers.

    s3rial one on
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Ad astra wrote: »
    Stilts wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Stilts wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Most characters are already too dependent on Shepard to validate their identity, making them less interesting personalities on the whole. The last thing we needed was to send Samara down that road.

    I see what you're getting at, and I think the issue is that Shepard is never allowed to show weakness. All the romance options have something they need help with that only Shepard can accomplish, but there's nothing Shepard needs. Shepard is perfect. Because of this, the romances end up feeling very lopsided.

    The exception to this is the Ashley and Kaidan romances.

    But I think that Samaras character in particular would be uniquely weakened by a romance.

    Regarding Ashley and Kaiden: That's true, but only because the relationship is balanced by omission. I'd like to see a sub-quest in ME3 where Shepard gets emotionally shaken and it's up to the significant other to help straighten it out. It would be a neat reversal of what we tend to expect from dialogue trees in RPGs.

    I can't even begin to tell you how much I want something like this to happen, Shepard is always solving his companions problems, no one ever asks what Shepard's emotional state is. Subsequently Shepard comes off about as interesting as a brick. And some of the romances come off as completely one sided, because Shepard knows everything about them, and they know nothing about Shepard.

    This is a limitation of roleplaying games in general. Would such a scene really come off as believable to us? Shepard kills his way through a fuckbillion things, gets ressurected, and doesn't so much as bat an eyelash and now he's having emotional trauma he needs help with?

    It's a lose/lose situation. If the player is in control of a character, it's hard to develop the character without things feeling out of left field. If you want to really develop a character and have him come into his own in a certain way, you can't really have the player dictating his words. Because then there's a disconnect.

    Fiaryn on
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  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    s3rial one wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Crazy? Hmm...maybe in the same way Lancelot of Arthurian legend is crazy. I think Samara is a deeply flawed individual who knows it and lives by a code to curtail her faults, and to repent.

    She has the worst kind of guilt to bear after all.

    I think that's what bothers me about it. She's flawed, she knows it, and so she lives by some crazy quasi-religious, fanatical code, which makes her an even worse person.

    How so?
    The first thing I thought when I read the codex on Ardat-Yakshi was "Liara never mentioned this."

    It's not meant to be a well known thing. Especially to non-Asari.

    Fiaryn on
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  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I have a very special hatred for Ardat-Yakshi

    Simonwolf

    Fiaryn on
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  • DHSDHS Chase lizards.. ...bark at donkeys..Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    The first thing I thought when I read the codex on Ardat-Yakshi was "Liara never mentioned this."

    It's not meant to be a well known thing. Especially to non-Asari.

    I meant more in terms of a "there is a non-zero chance that Liara (mind-sex virgin) could've been an Ardat-Yakshi and killed Shepard".

    I'm just saying - totally would've re-evaluated the "should I mind sex" thing.

    Especially since it's effectively a ...killer... STD.

    DHS on
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  • s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    s3rial one wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Crazy? Hmm...maybe in the same way Lancelot of Arthurian legend is crazy. I think Samara is a deeply flawed individual who knows it and lives by a code to curtail her faults, and to repent.

    She has the worst kind of guilt to bear after all.

    I think that's what bothers me about it. She's flawed, she knows it, and so she lives by some crazy quasi-religious, fanatical code, which makes her an even worse person.

    How so?

    Real-world analogy time:

    I have this friend, spent most of his 20s chasing after women. Big drinker, he'd cheat on his girlfriend constantly, new women every week, sometimes several. He joined the Navy, became a SEAL, and that made him even worse, for a while. But then he left the SEALs, started working as an IDC. He came home for the holidays a few years ago, right after that. Slept with two sisters in the span of two days. But he's also turned into the arch-conservative guy; shamelessly racist (even though he's Chinese), constantly parroting Rush Limbaugh and the like. Never a religious guy, though.

    So he goes home after the holidays, and out of nowhere, joins some church (pentecostal, I believe), meets a girl, and gets engaged in three weeks; married about two months after that. Now all of the sudden, he's lecturing me about morality. Thing is, he's still drinking all the time, still chasing after women, even though he's married, and his only conversations that aren't about work or religion are about how much he hates Mexicans and blacks. But now, he figures, he's got religion, so he's got the moral high ground.

    Samara strikes me as being like that. She's not really doing anything to improve herself. She's just joined some crazy cult that tells her it's okay to completely ignore local law and murder a cop who tries to enforce it. She's not better. She's not getting better. She just joined up with some crazies who tell her that what she's doing is okay.

    I mean, yeah, killing your own daughter, that's rough, I'd imagine. But look past that one particular mission: she comes off like some sort of interstellar thug; Wrex with none of the charm and charisma.

    tl;dr: she's the arrogant, pompous, self-righteous paladin of ME2.

    s3rial one on
  • EtherealEthereal Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    It sounds like your friend is just using religion as a pulpit to preach from without really following it. Samara, by contrast, has sacrificed almost everything to embody the code. She's given up family, material possessions, and a great deal of choice to follow the code and she acknowledges that it's not an easy thing for those outside the code to accept. She never tries to force the code down your throat, nor does she claim the galaxy would be better if everyone followed it.

    She's a grey character (like most of the ME2 squad), but to call her a thug or simple killer is silly and reductionist.

    Ethereal on
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Samara is part of the law. Her authority to do what she does comes from governmental acceptance that, for better or worse, having a Spectre-esque entity is a net positive in terms of policing their society. Given how many white collar Asari criminals we see...who's to say they're wrong?

    Galactic law and order is a whole 'nother beast than terrestrial. I don't think Samara is any different than Shepard, morally.

    It sounds like your hang up is on the religion part.

    Fiaryn on
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  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    I have a very special hatred for Ardat-Yakshi

    Simonwolf

    Fiaryn, you're back.

    Let us hate on Asari together.

    On Samara:

    Also, Justicars only have so much authority as they are given. Which is fine in Asari space, but outside of that she is nothing more than a very capable vigilante.

    Dragkonias on
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    I have a very special hatred for Ardat-Yakshi

    Simonwolf

    Fiaryn, you're back.

    Let us hate on Asari together.

    An Ardat Yakshi killed me in Mass Effect Phalla you do not even know how bitter I am :<

    Fiaryn on
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  • s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    It doesn't seem that the government has accepted Samara and her code, though, if they're trying to arrest her for merely being on the planet. It seems to me that she's less of a spectre analog and more of a cowboy; they're content to ignore her if she doesn't do anything too bad, because she'll shoot the place up if they upset her. Intergalactic spoiled-brat, maybe? :P

    No doubt, I don't like the religious angle, but it's more than that; I don't buy that she's really trying to better herself. Where you see sacrifice (e.g. giving up material possessions), I just see her running away from her problems. She's the only party member where there doesn't seem to be an option to actually have her own-up to her past. So she's hunting a killer - that the killer's her daughter isn't all that interesting to me. It's not like, say, Thane's loyalty mission, where he's flawed and trying to fix it.

    s3rial one on
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    s3rial one wrote: »
    It doesn't seem that the government has accepted Samara and her code, though, if they're trying to arrest her for merely being on the planet. It seems to me that she's less of a spectre analog and more of a cowboy; they're content to ignore her if she doesn't do anything too bad, because she'll shoot the place up if they upset her. Intergalactic spoiled-brat, maybe? :P

    No doubt, I don't like the religious angle, but it's more than that; I don't buy that she's really trying to better herself. Where you see sacrifice (e.g. giving up material possessions), I just see her running away from her problems. She's the only party member where there doesn't seem to be an option to actually have her own-up to her past. So she's hunting a killer - that the killer's her daughter isn't all that interesting to me. It's not like, say, Thane's loyalty mission, where he's flawed and trying to fix it.

    It is an understood fact that the Justicar code entails no compromise with criminals. And yet they are allowed to do as they will. That's tacit acceptance, functionally the same as normal acceptance. The reason she was getting shit on Illium is because Illium was basically a hotbed of crime and the government knew it. They knew it was only a matter of time before she killed the crap out of people, but weren't willing to just get rid of her because apparently going against the Justicars is No Small Thing in their culture.
    And...killing her daughter is fixing the problem.

    Fiaryn on
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  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Samara is like a Spectre thats limited to Asari space.

    Buttcleft on
  • EtherealEthereal Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    As it's presented killing Morinth is the only way to fix the problem. She's already owned up to her problem in the sense that she's come to terms with doing the hardest thing a parent would likely ever have to do. This isn't a situation where there's a diplomatic solution and Samara is simply unwilling to take it.

    It actually makes her loyalty mission better because she's set in what she has to do. It's not like so many other loyalty missions where the character essentially relies on Shepard to play therapist/councilor/decision-maker.

    Ethereal on
  • s3rial ones3rial one Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    s3rial one wrote: »
    It doesn't seem that the government has accepted Samara and her code, though, if they're trying to arrest her for merely being on the planet. It seems to me that she's less of a spectre analog and more of a cowboy; they're content to ignore her if she doesn't do anything too bad, because she'll shoot the place up if they upset her. Intergalactic spoiled-brat, maybe? :P

    No doubt, I don't like the religious angle, but it's more than that; I don't buy that she's really trying to better herself. Where you see sacrifice (e.g. giving up material possessions), I just see her running away from her problems. She's the only party member where there doesn't seem to be an option to actually have her own-up to her past. So she's hunting a killer - that the killer's her daughter isn't all that interesting to me. It's not like, say, Thane's loyalty mission, where he's flawed and trying to fix it.

    It is an understood fact that the Justicar code entails no compromise with criminals. And yet they are allowed to do as they will. That's tacit acceptance, functionally the same as normal acceptance. The reason she was getting shit on Illium is because Illium was basically a hotbed of crime and the government knew it. They knew it was only a matter of time before she killed the crap out of people, but weren't willing to just get rid of her because apparently going against the Justicars is No Small Thing in their culture.

    And...killing her daughter is fixing the problem.

    It fixes the problem, yeah. But look at Thane: he's a crappy father. So he tries to rescue his son and be a good father before he dies. Jacob finds out his father's alive just in time to find out he's a terrible human being, and has to deal with that. Grunt has to overcome all sorts of bias against him just to find a home. Jack struggles, but changes pretty fundamentally (if you go paragon).

    Zaeed, Garrus, and Samara all just have kill-the-bad-guy loyalty missions. They don't really seem to grow or advance because of it.

    (And that sucks, because I really like Garrus and was hoping for more)

    s3rial one on
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