Bitching Thread IV: I Must Break You (of bad comics)

Lucascraft

What comic are those staches from?

Robos A Go Go

Angry wrote: »

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

I didn't care for Old Man Logan. It was like a less mean-spirited Ruins mixed with elements of The Dark Knight Returns. Logan's motivation, his family, are barely a presence outside of the beginning and conclusion, Logan's interaction with his primary antagonists is limited (and, in the case of Red Skull, doesn't have a strong enough personal element), and Logan's character arc can be summed up as, "He said he'd never pop his claws again... until he did."

how much more of the family did you need? like maybe a few flashbacks to really establish that he cares for them?

and you can sum up EVERYTHING like that and it's retarded every time.

It's not so much that we needed more of the family as it is that the character's motivation, regardless of what it is, ought to have a more prominent role in the story. In this case, Wolverine's motivation is a generic family that never seems important to the reader until they've died. That's a problem, and the solution would be to either make the family more important or give Wolverine a more complex motivation for his actions.

And I wasn't summing up the Old Man Logan story as a whole, but rather Wolverine's character arc in that story. If you think I've overlooked some crucial element of his development, then point it out.

TheSecretSeventh

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

Angry wrote: »

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

I didn't care for Old Man Logan. It was like a less mean-spirited Ruins mixed with elements of The Dark Knight Returns. Logan's motivation, his family, are barely a presence outside of the beginning and conclusion, Logan's interaction with his primary antagonists is limited (and, in the case of Red Skull, doesn't have a strong enough personal element), and Logan's character arc can be summed up as, "He said he'd never pop his claws again... until he did."

how much more of the family did you need? like maybe a few flashbacks to really establish that he cares for them?

and you can sum up EVERYTHING like that and it's retarded every time.

It's not so much that we needed more of the family as it is that the character's motivation, regardless of what it is, ought to have a more prominent role in the story. In this case, Wolverine's motivation is a generic family that never seems important to the reader until they've died. That's a problem, and the solution would be to either make the family more important or give Wolverine a more complex motivation for his actions.

And I wasn't summing up the Old Man Logan story as a whole, but rather Wolverine's character arc in that story. If you think I've overlooked some crucial element of his development, then point it out.

you overlooked the fact that he get really pissed off

Solar

BigDes wrote: »

I like Secret Avengers for acknowledging how high tech the Marvel universe is.

Me too.

EDIT: How the hell did this get in here?

SatanIsMyMotor

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

Angry wrote: »

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

I didn't care for Old Man Logan. It was like a less mean-spirited Ruins mixed with elements of The Dark Knight Returns. Logan's motivation, his family, are barely a presence outside of the beginning and conclusion, Logan's interaction with his primary antagonists is limited (and, in the case of Red Skull, doesn't have a strong enough personal element), and Logan's character arc can be summed up as, "He said he'd never pop his claws again... until he did."

how much more of the family did you need? like maybe a few flashbacks to really establish that he cares for them?

and you can sum up EVERYTHING like that and it's retarded every time.

It's not so much that we needed more of the family as it is that the character's motivation, regardless of what it is, ought to have a more prominent role in the story. In this case, Wolverine's motivation is a generic family that never seems important to the reader until they've died. That's a problem, and the solution would be to either make the family more important or give Wolverine a more complex motivation for his actions.

And I wasn't summing up the Old Man Logan story as a whole, but rather Wolverine's character arc in that story. If you think I've overlooked some crucial element of his development, then point it out.

I think you're kind of under-selling Logan's arc. The story was moreso about how Wolverine has always felt like an animal or a weapon. Despite his time with the X-Men and such he always had that fear inside of him which was ultimately proven to be a reality when the villains capitalized on it - thus making Logan's greatest fear a reality (ie: that he would only end up destroying everyone/thing that he was close to).

I see it more as a story of forgiveness than revenge tbh.

Robos A Go Go

First off, that scene where he kills the X-Men was handled terribly.

Secondly, while guilt was undoubtedly a major theme in the story, I don't see how the climactic battle against Banner could be construed as anything but an act of vengeance.

When exactly did the forgiveness take place?

Furu

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

First off, that scene where he kills the X-Men was handled terribly.

This is what sticks in my craw the most.

SatanIsMyMotor

Robos A Go Go wrote: »

First off, that scene where he kills the X-Men was handled terribly.

Secondly, while guilt was undoubtedly a major theme in the story, I don't see how the climactic battle against Banner could be construed as anything but an act of vengeance.

When exactly did the forgiveness take place?

Forgiveness is probably the wrong concept here. Maybe moreso acceptance.

Acceptance through killing in the case of the hulks.

TexiKen

Jubilee was the one, out of all the X-people he killed, to last the longest against him, right?

The Lovely Bastard

I think Jubilee was the last he killed, but I don't know about lasting the longest. She probably didn't attack him, seeing as how they were close, so Wolverine was preoccupied with everyone else

Gank

That was how i remember mysterio gloating/explaining it. "They wouldn't kill their friend, even to stop him killing blah blah blah" and jubilee basically stayed outta the way the longest. I really enjoyed Old Man Logan, that scene included, but i really like McNivens pencils so thats probably the biggest factor in my enjoyment.

Furu

The idea that the X-Men had no way of restraining Wolverine without having to kill him is so dumb

Gaddez

Furu wrote: »

The idea that the X-Men had no way of restraining Wolverine without having to kill him is so dumb

Couldn't they have just had a psychic put him into a coma?

durandal4532

Gaddez wrote: »

Furu wrote: »

The idea that the X-Men had no way of restraining Wolverine without having to kill him is so dumb

Couldn't they have just had a psychic put him into a coma?

Couldn't any person restrain Wolverine by harming him terribly, then you know, not caring because he'll get up when the mind control wears off?

Like he's the only person in the world where you can be like "Oh no! they got him! CUT OFF HIS LIMBS!"

I mean I know it's just an excuse for the premise, but still.

The Lovely Bastard

could it also be he was kind of busy murdering them in a berserker rage and the time to think of doing these things wasn't afforded to them

TexiKen

Where was Emma during it all? She lived but where Scott is usually she's there, and she would know if Scott died that something happened realize who did it and kill them with a psychic attack.

The Lovely Bastard

Well you don't know when it happened!

They could've been broken up!

TexiKen

If they broke up, Jean came back to life then.

But why didn't Jean do anything? Because she dies all the time everyone else has to die too? Mutants are so petty.

The Lovely Bastard

Maybe they broke up because Scott had impure thoughts about Rachel

TexiKen

He did what everyone does when they think of Rachel: laugh non stop because she's dating the dude with the Cloud Sword.

durandal4532

The Lovely Bastard wrote: »

could it also be he was kind of busy murdering them in a berserker rage and the time to think of doing these things wasn't afforded to them

Yeah like none of them have thought about killing the smelly little Canadian who won't stop smoking cigars and drinks around the kids.

The Lovely Bastard

again, even if they had these in place

they were busy being murdered

Gaddez

Honestly the idea that the X-men don't have a contingency plan for dealing with their most psychoticly violent member is incredibly inept storytelling.

Gank

Does it mention if Mysterio intentionally didn't fuck with everyone else perceptions? Cos if hes messing with wolvie then why not everyone in there, have them see Hello Kitty or, ya know, nothing at all, rather than a murderous, berserker wolverine.

The Lovely Bastard

Even if the perceptions weren't two way

It's hard to enact a plan when one minute Wolverine is just hanging out being nice and the next he is murdering you

DouglasDanger

I still need to read Old Man Logan or whatever. The art looks good, but I have not enjoyed most of Millar's work that I have read. He's a mediocre writer who is always paired with great artists. He's a goddamned genius at hyping things and he knows how to write action scenes, but he's not that great.

Anyway, the whole Wolverine kills the X-men thing is awful. I read one of those big CBR previews, and I just couldn't make it work in my head. I don't read a lot of X-men stuff, but Wolverine cannot attack everyone at the same time. There a bunch of people who could stop Wolverine in his tracks ad keep him immobilized for a long time.

Perhaps he somehow murdered Scott, Bobby, and all of the psychics in their sleep, I don't know. The Wolverine kills the X-men in this preview right here! thing was really off-putting and made it seem like he just stabbed everyone to death.

manji

i have a lot of love for old man logan, but suspension of disbelief is a necessity to enjoy it, because honestly, him killing the x-men isn't the biggest stretch...

how exactly does he regenerate through being disolved by banners stomach acids for a few hours? did banner not thnk to chew? even if his bones stay intact surely the rest of his is gonna come apart. not that logan hasn't pulled that trick before but normally he's swallowed whole by giant beasties and has to claw his way out sharpish

Kipling217

How long do you need to realise that Wolverine is going beserk and killing everyone? 5-10 seconds? How long would it take you to realise that you have to stop him before he kills everyone in his beserk rage? an aditional 5-10 seconds? Its not like nobody knows Wolverine has a healing factor, everybody knows you can pretty much cut lose on the guy. If you happen to kill him by accident, you can always apologize later.

Wolverine in beserker rage is neither subtle or quiet, or even very smart. Wolverine in his regular state of mind is quite smart(being the best at what he does), but as a pure animal he could spend an hour hacking a single corpse into kibble.

Solar

Kipling217 wrote: »

How long do you need to realise that Wolverine is going beserk and killing everyone? 5-10 seconds? How long would it take you to realise that you have to stop him before he kills everyone in his beserk rage? an aditional 5-10 seconds? Its not like nobody knows Wolverine has a healing factor, everybody knows you can pretty much cut lose on the guy. If you happen to kill him by accident, you can always apologize later.

Wolverine in beserker rage is neither subtle or quiet, or even very smart. Wolverine in his regular state of mind is quite smart(being the best at what he does), but as a pure animal he could spend an hour hacking a single corpse into kibble.

Wolverine goes beserk, and kills (let's say, because he hates him) Scott. Iceman freezes Wolverine into a block of ice.

Game over. Wolverine is not only just a single dude against the X-Men he's not even a very powerful member of the X-Men. Any comic which says that Logan killed all of those guys with no problems because he was angry rarrgh! is hapless shitty fanboyism. Oh look it's a Mark Millar comic why am I not suprised.

The Lovely Bastard

oh hey my best friend of years is murdering people. instead of trying to talk him down, why not use lethal force. It don't work that way. they are going to try and talk him down. the x-men always do this with every dang villain.

and the only people in the splash page that could stop him in three seconds were Storm, Iceman, and maybe Polaris

and if you match up the corpses with the splash page, he takes out Colossus, Iceman, Polaris, and Storm first

the rest left were Cannonball, Cyclops, Gambit, Longshot, Psylocke, Forge, Jubilee, Beast, and Nightcrawler

and I can safely say he's probably easily murder any one of them if they were hesitant

and they would be

because he's their friend

DouglasDanger

These things make Old Man Logan require too much suspension of disbelief.

Robos A Go Go

Wolverine is like the one character you'd have no problem using lethal force against. Spider-Man shoved him out of a high-rise window just for fun.

The Lovely Bastard

there really isn't much

Logan is a killing machine

and the X-Men are not

of course he could murder them

it is what he does

The Lovely Bastard

I mean I know you guys wanna think Wolverine vs Longshot is a fair fight

but come on now

Gaddez

The Lovely Bastard wrote: »

I mean I know you guys wanna think Wolverine vs Longshot is a fair fight

but come on now

Given that Longshot was the exiles go to guy for kicking the shit out of proteus, I'm of the mind that he could slap the fucking shit out of wolverine.

The Lovely Bastard

The only reason Longshot was effective against Proteus was because his luck powers canceled out Proteus'

His powers do not, however, cancel out being disemboweled

Silver_Mage

Longshot's luck powers worked. He was lucky not to be in Old Man Logan.

Really though, I have no problem with Old Man Logan, and I actually liked it, granted I didn't get to read the ending. I thought it was a lot of fun, and it sure as hell was pretty.

The Lovely Bastard

He was in Old Man Logan

he was murdered along with the rest of the X-Men

Silver_Mage

Oh shit. It has been forever since I read that thing. My mistake.

The Lovely Bastard

well he's in a pile of corpses in a splash page

it's not hard to miss him

also he's Longshot