I have no idea when any Marvel comic takes place. Iron Man and Avengers doesn't line up and neither does Shadowland and Franken-Castle.
ironman/avengers - This is my personal one. These are not the same Tony in any way shape or fashion. Financially, resources, and character are completely different.
Shadowland/Franken - I work in a comicbook and have people ask this a lot the last few days. Why he is a monster in one and normal in the other. I have no answer.
The answer is that Frankencastle takes place before Shadowland.
Iron Man and Avengers though, I'm not sure. I'm not reading either monthly, but I know someone suggested that Tony might just be putting up a front in Iron Man, saying he has more money and resources than he really does.
Ultimately I find continuity to be a hindrance more than a help with comics. I hate that bad comics will get good sales solely because they're meant to have some affect on that continuity, though I'm as guilty of that as anyone.
Back to Darwyn Cooke, I don't think anyone posted his response to the criticism he got:
Consider this- After sixty years of being a lesbian, a beloved character is made straight for sales or creative purposes- wouldn’t that be wrong as well?
I think gay characters are an important and welcome part of any contemporary expression. What I want is to see creators and publishers creating new characters that are gay and lesbian, and spend the decades needed creating and supporting stories about these characters. It strikes me as opportunistic and somewhat wrongheaded to take someone else’s creation and after decades of established character action make that drastic a change.
I’ve always believed that if another creator’s character can’t bear the spectrum of expression I need to reach, then I don’t use that character. Find another or create a new one.
If you tie my comment into the context of the other things I’m saying, I’m also not sure what the corporate motivation is for such changes. If we look at the reading demographics for superhero comics, this becomes an intriguing topic.
I agree with the basis of his argument but I think his example (which really does sound like it's Batwoman) is terrible. If he's going to bitch about writers changing characters, why not complain that Batman's not running across rooftops shooting criminals with his two pistols? I mean really, I'd say changing Batman from that to the happy goofball 60's Batman is a hell of a lot bigger than just turning a character gay (ignoring the fact that Kathy Kane and Kate Kane are different characters). Batwoman wasn't exactly an iconic character either. Sure she was created about 50 years ago but she was only active for what, 10 of those years at most?
The idea that most of the comic industry panders to the same aging audience I agree with though. That's why most of my friends stick with Vertigo books, except for the times I really recommend a book (like All Star Superman).
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edited September 2010
Tony's money problems are completely disconnected from his solo title in Avengers, New Avengers (the first issue at least), and Uncanny X-Men.
Tony is so broke in Iron Man he had to make his new suit in Reed Richards' laboratory because he has nothing else.
I can understand Avengers and New Avengers to a point (Bendis and Fraction had to have talked about it in one of Marvel's retreats), but Fraction is writing Uncanny so that should sync up more.
I agree with the basis of his argument but I think his example (which really does sound like it's Batwoman) is terrible. If he's going to bitch about writers changing characters, why not complain that Batman's not running across rooftops shooting criminals with his two pistols? I mean really, I'd say changing Batman from that to the happy goofball 60's Batman is a hell of a lot bigger than just turning a character gay (ignoring the fact that Kathy Kane and Kate Kane are different characters). Batwoman wasn't exactly an iconic character either. Sure she was created about 50 years ago but she was only active for what, 10 of those years at most?
Cooke's friend and gay comics creator, J. Bone, actually stops in on that comment thread later and says Cooke's actually talking about the Question. Which makes a little more sense, as Cooke actually worked on Batman: TAS, and probably feels attached to Renee Montoya as a result.
Rucka took a minor supporting character that'd been brought over to the comics from BTAS (he wrote the awesome No Mans Land Montoya/Two Face issue) and has been writing her on and off for 10 years since then, developing her far more as a character than any of the BTAS writers did.
I can understand the BTAS staff having attachments to characters they helped create but if Cooke really is complaining about her treatment, then it sounds like he just doesn't like that he/they don't own her. Pesonally I thought the entire thing was handled fantastically in Gotham Central and can't remember any other mention of her sexuality (straight or gay) beforehand.
Tony's money problems are completely disconnected from his solo title in Avengers, New Avengers (the first issue at least), and Uncanny X-Men.
Tony is so broke in Iron Man he had to make his new suit in Reed Richards' laboratory because he has nothing else.
I can understand Avengers and New Avengers to a point (Bendis and Fraction had to have talked about it in one of Marvel's retreats), but Fraction is writing Uncanny so that should sync up more.
In the Avengers he's going on about his labs that he doesn't have, which is a really obvious and horrible divorce from what's going on in IIM. Usually I don't mind Bendis' little continuity hiccups but not knowing what the current state of a character you are writing in his own series is pretty wrong-headed.
And to prove it my sister (who is studying english literature at university and has been told she needs to buy a copy of Maus and Maus II for a particular class) just sneered at me that comic books are mere childrens books with absolutely no legitimate claim to being literature. Fucking ignorant girl, she should learn some damn respect.
And to prove it my sister (who is studying english literature at university and has been told she needs to buy a copy of Maus and Maus II for a particular class) just sneered at me that comic books are mere childrens books with absolutely no legitimate claim to being literature. Fucking ignorant girl, she should learn some damn respect.
Hey, my old English teacher from high school has his freshman class reading Maus.
And to prove it my sister (who is studying english literature at university and has been told she needs to buy a copy of Maus and Maus II for a particular class) just sneered at me that comic books are mere childrens books with absolutely no legitimate claim to being literature. Fucking ignorant girl, she should learn some damn respect.
Eh, its entirely her loss, don't get too bothered by it
And to prove it my sister (who is studying english literature at university and has been told she needs to buy a copy of Maus and Maus II for a particular class) just sneered at me that comic books are mere childrens books with absolutely no legitimate claim to being literature. Fucking ignorant girl, she should learn some damn respect.
Eh, people thought Shakespeare was a whole lot of pop culture bullshit back in the day too.
It's weird that she'd say that right before reading a Pulitzer Prize winning comic drawn by a dude whose work regularly appeared in The New Yorker. She has no foresight at all.
And to prove it my sister (who is studying english literature at university and has been told she needs to buy a copy of Maus and Maus II for a particular class) just sneered at me that comic books are mere childrens books with absolutely no legitimate claim to being literature. Fucking ignorant girl, she should learn some damn respect.
Eh, people thought Shakespeare was a whole lot of pop culture bullshit back in the day too.
I had an English professor who really liked comic books, particularly the older issues of Thor.
I loaned him my copies of Atomic Robot and the Shadow from Beyond Time, because he was also into science. He loved them.
I had a university lecturer who was interrupted in the middle of his lecture by a student standing up and saying loudly into his phone "What? I'll be there right now!" Then the guy ripped off his velco trousers etc to reveal a superman costume and ran out the door.
The lecturer though this was hilarious and complimented the guy on a well played out joke.
And to prove it my sister (who is studying english literature at university and has been told she needs to buy a copy of Maus and Maus II for a particular class) just sneered at me that comic books are mere childrens books with absolutely no legitimate claim to being literature. Fucking ignorant girl, she should learn some damn respect.
Eh, maybe she'll read it and change her mind. See what she says after she has to give the books at least a cursory reading for class.
And to prove it my sister (who is studying english literature at university and has been told she needs to buy a copy of Maus and Maus II for a particular class) just sneered at me that comic books are mere childrens books with absolutely no legitimate claim to being literature. Fucking ignorant girl, she should learn some damn respect.
Eh, people thought Shakespeare was a whole lot of pop culture bullshit back in the day too.
I had an English professor who really liked comic books, particularly the older issues of Thor.
I loaned him my copies of Atomic Robot and the Shadow from Beyond Time, because he was also into science. He loved them.
Off topic, but, one of my professors utilizes The Walking Dead in her Cultural Anthropology course.
I think if someone gave me Maus as an example of a good comic, I'd probably hate comics. Ditto for Persepolis and Jimmy Corrigan.
ITT Munch hates on critically acclaimed comics.
I would agree with you there, being honest. none of those comics have anything like enough dudes in capes punching other dudes in capes (to quote TLB).
I should say, I actually really liked the Persepolis movie. Probably because the art was about 1000x better.
I'm not strictly a capes enthusiast or anything, but all of those comics just read as very pretentious to me. To paraphrase Family Guy, they insist upon themselves. Actually, ditto for anything written by Dan Clowes.
Whereas, stuff like Asterios Polyp, the work of Alex Robinson, some of what the Hernandez brothers have done, Strangers in Paradise, American Splendor, etc. are capable of telling very emotional, human stories that cover the emotional spectrum, but are actually enjoyable to read.
To be fair, Maus is a guy writing about his dad being in the holocaust. Of course the perspective is going to imply it's a weighty and important topic. It's the holocaust, and it's his dad. I think it's still pretty damn fantastic.
Nah, I recognize why some people like that stuff, but ultimately I just have no desire to read depressing stories, despite their significance. Night, by Elie Wiesel, is a fine book, but I'm never going to read it again. I guess I just like my tragedy to be tempered with a little comedy.
Nah, I recognize why some people like that stuff, but ultimately I just have no desire to read depressing stories, despite their significance. Night, by Elie Wiesel, is a fine book, but I'm never going to read it again. I guess I just like my tragedy to be tempered with a little comedy.
Not really anything funny about the Holocaust though, and it is horribly grim and depressing to read about. Not my thing either man, though Maus deserves every piece of credit it recieves, it is certainly well-written.
Nah, I recognize why some people like that stuff, but ultimately I just have no desire to read depressing stories, despite their significance. Night, by Elie Wiesel, is a fine book, but I'm never going to read it again. I guess I just like my tragedy to be tempered with a little comedy.
Tragedy tempered by comedy? I don't think anyone has dealt with the Holocaust in a humorous way...except maybe 'Life is Beautiful'.
I think Maus had to be told in comic book form, as the visuals give you a sense of things that words just cannot do justice to.
Are there other books like 'Maus' and 'Perseopolis' that are good and justify the visuals? Conversely, are there comic books out there that try to deal with serious topics and come off extremely pretentious?
Just reading the book's plot description turned my stomach. Before hearing about it, I was a big Alan Moore fan. But afterwards...I don't know... I just couldn't pick up any other books by him.
Not really anything funny about the Holocaust though, and it is horribly grim and depressing to read about. Not my thing either man, though Maus deserves every piece of credit it recieves, it is certainly well-written.
I'm a pretty strong believer in the idea that humor can be found anywhere, even (especially?) during dark times.
The day after my dad died, I went into work and was met with several incredibly surprised co-workers. Why? Because I have the same name as my father, and when they saw his obituary, complete with a picture of him in his younger days, several of them thought I'd died.
I laughed my ass off.
Anyhow, questions of dark humor aside, I recognize that Maus is supposed to be well-written. But I had to fight to get through it.
That's how Moore writes all his scripts. I think the League one opens up with him telling Kevin O'Neill to get a cup of tea and have a seat, because he's going to be reading for a while.
I think it was O'Neill who also pointed out that, when he gets a script from Moore, he basically goes through it and just starts scratching out anything that's not a scene description. Or maybe it was Eddie Campbell.
I also like Van Sciver's description of Morrison's scripts.
Van Sciver discussed working with big-name yet stylistically distinct writers like Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison."Grant Morrison writes scripts like dream interpretation. Like this is a dream journal - he dreamt it happening and then wrote it all down. You read it and go, 'I see what you mean.' Then you try to draw it, and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
"He told me one time, in a script for 'New X-Men' #134, in a scene I didn't end up drawing - Keron Grant got it after I was fired from Marvel - he said, 'I want you to picture this: a bunch of mutant students are holding hands in a circle, and they're concentrating and levitating the planet Earth above them, and suddenly Beak runs by squawking, and it breaks their concentration and the globe falls and shatters.' And I feel I can picture that, I know what you mean. Then I sat down to draw it, and it was like, 'What the Hell is he talking about? Where is this happening? What is the globe, is it some astral projection? Is it a real, physical thing? The whole thing doesn't make sense.' You have to sit down and invent things and answer questions for yourself, because Grant is not available by telephone. I did, in fact, draw the first six pages of it a certain way, then I went back to DC; Keron Grant finished it and drew a completely different way."
Posts
ironman/avengers - This is my personal one. These are not the same Tony in any way shape or fashion. Financially, resources, and character are completely different.
Shadowland/Franken - I work in a comicbook and have people ask this a lot the last few days. Why he is a monster in one and normal in the other. I have no answer.
Iron Man and Avengers though, I'm not sure. I'm not reading either monthly, but I know someone suggested that Tony might just be putting up a front in Iron Man, saying he has more money and resources than he really does.
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Back to Darwyn Cooke, I don't think anyone posted his response to the criticism he got: I agree with the basis of his argument but I think his example (which really does sound like it's Batwoman) is terrible. If he's going to bitch about writers changing characters, why not complain that Batman's not running across rooftops shooting criminals with his two pistols? I mean really, I'd say changing Batman from that to the happy goofball 60's Batman is a hell of a lot bigger than just turning a character gay (ignoring the fact that Kathy Kane and Kate Kane are different characters). Batwoman wasn't exactly an iconic character either. Sure she was created about 50 years ago but she was only active for what, 10 of those years at most?
The idea that most of the comic industry panders to the same aging audience I agree with though. That's why most of my friends stick with Vertigo books, except for the times I really recommend a book (like All Star Superman).
Tony is so broke in Iron Man he had to make his new suit in Reed Richards' laboratory because he has nothing else.
I can understand Avengers and New Avengers to a point (Bendis and Fraction had to have talked about it in one of Marvel's retreats), but Fraction is writing Uncanny so that should sync up more.
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I can understand the BTAS staff having attachments to characters they helped create but if Cooke really is complaining about her treatment, then it sounds like he just doesn't like that he/they don't own her. Pesonally I thought the entire thing was handled fantastically in Gotham Central and can't remember any other mention of her sexuality (straight or gay) beforehand.
In the Avengers he's going on about his labs that he doesn't have, which is a really obvious and horrible divorce from what's going on in IIM. Usually I don't mind Bendis' little continuity hiccups but not knowing what the current state of a character you are writing in his own series is pretty wrong-headed.
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wait....
In other news, sun still rises in the morning.
Snarky humor aside, I am curious as to why you'd bring it up. What happened this issue?
Me too, I'm always ready for some bitching.
Hey, my old English teacher from high school has his freshman class reading Maus.
Eh, its entirely her loss, don't get too bothered by it
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https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I had an English professor who really liked comic books, particularly the older issues of Thor.
I loaned him my copies of Atomic Robot and the Shadow from Beyond Time, because he was also into science. He loved them.
The lecturer though this was hilarious and complimented the guy on a well played out joke.
Eh, maybe she'll read it and change her mind. See what she says after she has to give the books at least a cursory reading for class.
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What if it's a comic where Superman is teaching Lois a lesson through some cruel trick?
Off topic, but, one of my professors utilizes The Walking Dead in her Cultural Anthropology course.
Cool stuff.
I would agree with you there, being honest. none of those comics have anything like enough dudes in capes punching other dudes in capes (to quote TLB).
Or at least the movie does.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
I'm not strictly a capes enthusiast or anything, but all of those comics just read as very pretentious to me. To paraphrase Family Guy, they insist upon themselves. Actually, ditto for anything written by Dan Clowes.
Whereas, stuff like Asterios Polyp, the work of Alex Robinson, some of what the Hernandez brothers have done, Strangers in Paradise, American Splendor, etc. are capable of telling very emotional, human stories that cover the emotional spectrum, but are actually enjoyable to read.
Tumblr Twitter
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Nah, I recognize why some people like that stuff, but ultimately I just have no desire to read depressing stories, despite their significance. Night, by Elie Wiesel, is a fine book, but I'm never going to read it again. I guess I just like my tragedy to be tempered with a little comedy.
Tumblr Twitter
Not really anything funny about the Holocaust though, and it is horribly grim and depressing to read about. Not my thing either man, though Maus deserves every piece of credit it recieves, it is certainly well-written.
Tragedy tempered by comedy? I don't think anyone has dealt with the Holocaust in a humorous way...except maybe 'Life is Beautiful'.
I think Maus had to be told in comic book form, as the visuals give you a sense of things that words just cannot do justice to.
Are there other books like 'Maus' and 'Perseopolis' that are good and justify the visuals? Conversely, are there comic books out there that try to deal with serious topics and come off extremely pretentious?
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Just reading the book's plot description turned my stomach. Before hearing about it, I was a big Alan Moore fan. But afterwards...I don't know... I just couldn't pick up any other books by him.
Diablo 3 - ArtfulDodger#1572
Minecraft - ArtfulDodger42
The day after my dad died, I went into work and was met with several incredibly surprised co-workers. Why? Because I have the same name as my father, and when they saw his obituary, complete with a picture of him in his younger days, several of them thought I'd died.
I laughed my ass off.
Anyhow, questions of dark humor aside, I recognize that Maus is supposed to be well-written. But I had to fight to get through it.
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everything
munch you are my bro doggie
it is really well written porn
it is an experience
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
You know, based on his other scripts, I bet this is how Moore began the script for Lost Girls.
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I think it was O'Neill who also pointed out that, when he gets a script from Moore, he basically goes through it and just starts scratching out anything that's not a scene description. Or maybe it was Eddie Campbell.
I also like Van Sciver's description of Morrison's scripts.
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