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Acquiring a foreign language through playing video games?
Cheezy
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
This is aimed at languages with English cognates. Think French and not Japanese.
First off, this is not about games like "My Spanish Coach!
" and their ilk that consider being able to say "I drink water in restaurants" constitutes fluency.
This is about language learning through immersion by playing the video games that we know and love. The problem is that the list of games optimally suited to this task is relatively small because of certain fundamental qualities that really need to be present for broad language acquisition to occur. From just thinking about this for a little bit, I've come up with a few "make or break" qualities for a game that is by no means conclusive.
1. Quantity of words. The game needs to be wordy and preferably have gameplay and plot mechanics that are moved along primarily through language.
2. Quality of words. If every other noun or verb is a fantastical construct, there is not a lot of "real world" learning going on. Preferably, the majority of words on a Swadesh List would be accounted for in realistic contexts.
3. Quality of translation. The game needs to be completely translated and dubbed. No subtitles and calling it a day. And the translation needs to be approaching grammatically correct. Colloquialisms should be at a minimum as well.
4. Context. Ideally, the player should be able to feel out what a word means through context after a certain point, be it through visuals, cognates, or just through repetition in different situations.
5. Timing. This includes both gameplay and plot. The text speed needs to be at the user's control. Think annoying owl from Legend of Zelda and less Metal Gear. The plot also needs to contain language involving the past, the present, and the future, and in relatively consistently ways. Random NPCs walking around declaring their love of X is not really useful.
6. Plot. This is basically a culmination of all the other attributes. The plot needs to be realistic (to an extent), have a cohesive narrative, be ubiquitous in nature, and constantly reference common themes. The player needs to have a reason to try to understand the plot, basically, but it can't be so chaotic that if they didn't play it for a week, they'd be lost.
Just for a further breakdown of what I mean, I'll use Pokemon as an example.
1. Pokemon is somewhat wordy, but the gameplay is menu driven and the plot is almost nonexistent.
2. The quality of words are also suspect. Pokemon and their move sets provide the meat of the game. While the moves fill a lot of the Swadesh List, there's no method to parse the meaning outside of what type of pokemon it is or a dictionary.
3. Since it's completely text reliant, with simple grammar and a relatively small vocabulary, the translation quality would be probably be fine.
4. Pokemon has no real context outside of cognates and incredibly simple visual clues. I might be able to parse out that "faisceau de bulle" means something related to bubbles due to the move animation, but I wouldn't be able to parse out that is means bubble beam.
5. Text speed is completely dependent on the player. NPCs are there for bulk and have pointless dialogue that isn't consistent or relevant to other events in the game. A random trainer saying "I like shorts! Do you like shorts?" can't be parsed without a dictionary for someone who knows the word like but not the word shorts.
6. The plot fails on basically every point. It's utter fantasy, the narration and plot are practically non-existent, and the only real theme is that of Pokemon. I could stumble through the game without understanding a single word, and there'd be no incentive for me not to do so.
I'm thinking that ideally, I should be able to print out a Swadesh List for the language that would allow me to understand a good solid chunk and parse out the rest through context. I'm thinking a game like Baldur's Gate or Oblivion would be a good choice, since they are based in a fantasy world that is populated by real constructs. In the case of Oblivion, I don't know if any translation is dubbed or just subtitled, though.
As supplementals, I think The Sims 3 and Civilization IV would be great for basic vocabulary building, but as far as grammar goes, I don't think it would help with even basic proficiency.
So, any other criteria that people think I've missed? Any experience in learning or maintaining a foreign language through a video game? Any video games that you think are suitable for this task?
First off, this is not about games like "My Spanish Coach!
" and their ilk that consider being able to say "I drink water in restaurants" constitutes fluency.This is about language learning through immersion by playing the video games that we know and love. The problem is that the list of games optimally suited to this task is relatively small because of certain fundamental qualities that really need to be present for broad language acquisition to occur. From just thinking about this for a little bit, I've come up with a few "make or break" qualities for a game that is by no means conclusive.
1. Quantity of words. The game needs to be wordy and preferably have gameplay and plot mechanics that are moved along primarily through language.
2. Quality of words. If every other noun or verb is a fantastical construct, there is not a lot of "real world" learning going on. Preferably, the majority of words on a Swadesh List would be accounted for in realistic contexts.
3. Quality of translation. The game needs to be completely translated and dubbed. No subtitles and calling it a day. And the translation needs to be approaching grammatically correct. Colloquialisms should be at a minimum as well.
4. Context. Ideally, the player should be able to feel out what a word means through context after a certain point, be it through visuals, cognates, or just through repetition in different situations.
5. Timing. This includes both gameplay and plot. The text speed needs to be at the user's control. Think annoying owl from Legend of Zelda and less Metal Gear. The plot also needs to contain language involving the past, the present, and the future, and in relatively consistently ways. Random NPCs walking around declaring their love of X is not really useful.
6. Plot. This is basically a culmination of all the other attributes. The plot needs to be realistic (to an extent), have a cohesive narrative, be ubiquitous in nature, and constantly reference common themes. The player needs to have a reason to try to understand the plot, basically, but it can't be so chaotic that if they didn't play it for a week, they'd be lost.
Just for a further breakdown of what I mean, I'll use Pokemon as an example.
1. Pokemon is somewhat wordy, but the gameplay is menu driven and the plot is almost nonexistent.
2. The quality of words are also suspect. Pokemon and their move sets provide the meat of the game. While the moves fill a lot of the Swadesh List, there's no method to parse the meaning outside of what type of pokemon it is or a dictionary.
3. Since it's completely text reliant, with simple grammar and a relatively small vocabulary, the translation quality would be probably be fine.
4. Pokemon has no real context outside of cognates and incredibly simple visual clues. I might be able to parse out that "faisceau de bulle" means something related to bubbles due to the move animation, but I wouldn't be able to parse out that is means bubble beam.
5. Text speed is completely dependent on the player. NPCs are there for bulk and have pointless dialogue that isn't consistent or relevant to other events in the game. A random trainer saying "I like shorts! Do you like shorts?" can't be parsed without a dictionary for someone who knows the word like but not the word shorts.
6. The plot fails on basically every point. It's utter fantasy, the narration and plot are practically non-existent, and the only real theme is that of Pokemon. I could stumble through the game without understanding a single word, and there'd be no incentive for me not to do so.
I'm thinking that ideally, I should be able to print out a Swadesh List for the language that would allow me to understand a good solid chunk and parse out the rest through context. I'm thinking a game like Baldur's Gate or Oblivion would be a good choice, since they are based in a fantasy world that is populated by real constructs. In the case of Oblivion, I don't know if any translation is dubbed or just subtitled, though.
As supplementals, I think The Sims 3 and Civilization IV would be great for basic vocabulary building, but as far as grammar goes, I don't think it would help with even basic proficiency.
So, any other criteria that people think I've missed? Any experience in learning or maintaining a foreign language through a video game? Any video games that you think are suitable for this task?
Cheezy on
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Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire,
Just trust me. I went through several courses and I can speak thr language well and I still have trouble playing games. One thing to remember as well is that a lot of media, like music, tv, or games will teach you bad habits as well. Stuff like saying "~shinakucha dame da" to express an obligation, which is slang for "~shinakute wa dame da." which might not seem like a big deal, but you don't grasp thr complexities and reasons why the language works when you learn these shortcuts first.
You need to play a game you have practically memorized word for word in English. To me, that's the fastest way to build your vocabulary. You're familiar with what's going on so you'll glean at least a few phrases from every spoken sentence. Metal Gear Solid on the PSX was published in eleven languages, for example, and everyone on this board has played the original MGS a dozen times over. So if you wanted to know how to say 'Sniper Wolf' or 'Solid Snake' in Italian, playing the Italian-language version seems like the most entertaining way to do it.
Goomba is a slur against Italian-Americans.
I'd assume so. When people ask me how to say their name in Japanese they're usually disappointed when i just say it back with a slight accent. I.e solid snake to soorido suneku. It's usually more interesting to see it written out, but even then it's just approximating sounds.
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire,
Speaking of roots, anybody looking to pick up Japanese is gonna have a hard time figuring out roots. Take "minakute wa ikemasen." Means "you must see" (literally "not-see [you] must not" where you is implied). the root in this case? Miru. It takes practice and conversation before this becomes natural.
Oh and then there is cases when subtle differences dont exist in English. ~yarou to desu means "tried to do something." taberou to desu. I tried to eat. Well ~te miru also means to try something. Tabete miru. Naturally there is a layer of translation that doesn't exist in English which differentiates the two, they're not interchangable. And the difference isn't obvious.
I already play video games for fun. I don't watch foreign films for fun. I want to turn that wasted unproductive time playing video games into productive time learning languages. I want to maintain and increase my Spanish, while learning other Romance languages that have abundant amounts of cognates and easily parsed grammar. I'm pretty sure I can do that through video games.
I want to be able to read books and gradually build fluency through repetition and exposure, not become a polyglot overnight by playing Bejeweled ten minutes a day.
I mean, just doing a Google translation of a random quote from Baldur's Gate 2:
"Vous ne savez rien de moi! Vous ne savez rien de ce que je dois faire! Tu souffriras! Vous serez tous souffrir!"
"Tu non sai nulla di me! Tu non sai nulla di quello che devo fare! Potrai soffrire! Voi tutti soffrire!"
I know basically fuck all about French and Italian, but I could parse a large portion of that due to prior knowledge of Spanish, pop culture, and cognates.
EDIT: People have acquired foreign languages without formal courses for thousands of years. I'm pretty sure I can pass that bar, especially with culturally related languages.
Probably because Italian-Italians are very different from Italian-Americans, and also they probably don't give a damn about racism in the US or american slurs.
I know Japanese so I use it as an example. I'm sure someone with a more professional knowledge of Spanish could come in and confirm that what I said about Japanese applies to Spanish as well. Also google translate is awful and I would recommend against using it.
I also learned Japanese while in Japan from games, but apparently, that's a no-no in this thread.
Only one question:
Did you get The Legend of Swordsman and Fairy?
That's all I need to know.
people who do this speak terribly broken. It's smart to use media to supplment your learning but not as your source material. Learning a language is not easy. If what you're describing was such a viable option why would you think few people would have done it?
Additionally there are tons of false congnates between romantic languages and it's not as easy as plugging in words into sentence construction. There are more differences between French and spanish than just vocab. And when you used google translate you admitted you don't know Italian so how do you know your pulled translation is even correct?
Japanese and Spanish are nothing alike. One shares a very, very large basis with English and the other (as far as I know) doesn't really at all except for what it has grabbed in the last hundred years. There aren't modes of speaking in Spanish, either. You have a formal conjugation and it's very clear cut.
You guys are comparing a trip across an ocean with a ford across a river.
And I treat Google Translate like I would any amateur translator: As a tool and with a grain of salt.
What games can do better than other media is:
1. Present you with a language-based task
2. Require you to understand the language in order to complete the task
3. Penalize or reward you for failing to complete the task
The only other media I can think of that does this are practice tests and work books. But those often require the threat of a bad grade or unhappy teacher in order to motivate students to do them. Video games, potentially, could make this more fun.
That said, I'm not sure any such games exist. Phoenix Wright would be a good one, but all the language involves crime and law, so not particularly useful. Dating games often penalize you for saying the wrong thing to your partner, but the penalties aren't always immediate, so it's not always clear whether or not you understood the language.
well first up Spanish isbmy second language. Both of my parents speak it fluetly and I'd have no trouble surviving in a Spanish country. Second all lanuages are pretty similar, and I haven't spoken about honorifics yet.
To elaborate, after a trip to france last year, I decided to improve upon my linguistic portfolio and start learning french. So I started reading french childrens books, switched many of my games to french, looked french television and whatnot. The result pretty much has been that I ended up being able to understand french texts, but my own pronounciation/grammar/usage and writing remained subpar, since I wasn't actively using the language myself. Which figures.
The languages I speak fluently, I do speak fluently because I built a solid foundation over years with the help of, well, teachers. And then improved upon that by subjecting myself to media. Singing songs helps with pronounciation, video games might help with vocabulary and, if they force you to interact with a community, even writing and grammar.
I would suggest people to just join one of those email-services that hook you up with a like minded individual from across the globe that seeks to improve his expertise by, well, writing letters in the language in question. That is a pretty good start, in my opinion. Reading comprehension, however, didn't help me much, at least.
Nope, I missed that one, although it sounds like it's good.
As far as Chinese RPGs go, I have Heroine Anthem 1 & 2, Fantasia SanGuo, Wind Fantasy 4 & 5, and another Strategy/RPG that I forgot the name of. Plus I have some Chinese versions of Japanese games & American games.
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire,
Rectify this immediately. You'll be glad you did. This is pretty much the most famous Taiwanese RPG series ever, and with good reason.
I'm saying that step one and two are a given due to the medium of being a stranger in a strange land. Step three is implicit to any gaming model that is based upon comprehension rather than rote recitation. In Civilization, if you accidentally choose axemen when you wanted archers, you will get penalized.
Learning a language is natural to the human brain up until a certain point, after which it becomes more and more something which you must consciously turn your mind to, and basically a function of your capacity to learn things academically. Kids learn their parents' languages all the time at home while speaking different languages outside; this doesn't make them geniuses, they're just being normal human beings.
I myself have learned several languages without formal instruction in them, but this was through a combination of a solid understanding of how languages can work, self-study, and the daily interaction that occurs through full immersion (preferably in a foreign country). That last part is what I consider absolutely necessary to really claim any degree of proficiency with a language.
As far as video games go, with a strong background and enough work, you may be able to get to a point where you can understand a language. However, you'll probably not be able to speak it. Billions of Muslims around the world read the Quran in Arabic without being able to speak Arabic to any real degree - and I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that a video game player isn't going to be quite as dedicated.
1. I have learned a second language. And it was easy.
2. The reason is because video games are a very young medium. And then you have naysayers like yourself that simply throw up your hands and yell "Impossible!" rather than trying a new iteration.
3. The answer to false cognates is not to abandon learning through cognates but to find out which of them are false.
4. I'm not an idiot. I'm well aware of the differences between different language families. This isn't rocket science. And the reason why I know that translation is correct is because A) I had the original quote and could parse it out and
So, yes, playing some games in a language you're studying or practicing, can't hurt (unless the game in question is horribly done), but the language benefit you're going to get is relatively minimal. Do it because it's fun and think of the language practice as just a small extra bonus, not the other way around.
Steam ID : rwb36, Twitter : Werezompire,
That's why.
And can people stop telling me why what doesn't work for you won't work for me, especially without addressing any of the considerations of my original post? I'd really appreciate it.
See this I agree with. I didn't mean to upset the op but i feel I'm being realistic. I'm not trying to discourage you learning another language - I enjoy doing it. I'm just trying to steer you in a better direction based on my experiences learning languages.
In any case it doesn't sound like you have many games which meet your critera anyways. What language do you want to learn specifically btw?
You could also play a modern RPG with full voice acting. Bonus points go to it allowing subtitles. Even more bonus points go to it allowing the subtitles and voice acting being in different languages. That way, you can hear the language you want to learn while reading it in English (or another language you've learned) and get a feel for what it sounds like. Alternatively, you can listen to it in English and read it in the foreign language and get a feel for how the language actually translates. Lastly, you can watch and read the language and reinforce what you know against each other (it helps quite a bit when hearing a language you're learning to be able to read along and fill in gaps you may be missing due to the speed of the dialog or pronunciation).
Off the top of my head, I think The Witcher does this, and in a crapload of languages to boot. So there you go.
A basic grasp of grammar, word order and spelling (or more appropriately, word construction) will be needed before you can actually use games to learn the language. You won't be able to put in Dutch Divine Divinity 2 and come out speaking and understanding Dutch. There's too much language and nested information for the game to even be remotely playable without knowing the language. Games can do a few things well, but you'll need a rudimentary grasp of a language first (or at the very least a [X]-to-English dictionary). You won't be able to throw Mass Effect in your computer and be able to understand what's going on. Games do a few things decently, though.
(Games here implying mainstream games not designed to teach language)
Learning vocabulary: once you discover a word's meaning it will be easier to remember since you'll have a specific context for it. This tends to be what games do best (compared with books, where you can reread a sentence for sentence structure - you'll often see the same word in a menu and you'll learn to remember it).
Reinforcing knowledge (e.g. pronunciation, grammar): of course, this works best if they were developed by native speakers of the language you're looking into. This also works best with spoken language (i.e. Half-Life or Final Fantasy X).
Discerning grammar: much like if you compare an English book and a French book, you'll be able to recognize words and get a feel for general word order. This is somewhat possible without having read/played/used your native language version, but there are so many false friends, colloquialisms and pronunciation/spelling differences that you likely won't recognize the words you need.
That out of the way, I've found the best games for me to get useful knowledge from were strategy games and building games. I learned terminology (like vaccine, amber, helicopter and urgent) from Jurassic Park: Operation Genesis. Civilization is another game that works well teaching you basic terminology. The tech tree provides over 100 useful everyday words like wheel and mining. Something like Half-Life 2 with subtitles (and hearing impaired captioning, even) can also work a little.
Of course, even if you miraculously manage to learn how to read and listen wholly from a game your speaking (and likely writing) are going to be downright terrible.
Going from one language to another is really not that cut-and-dry (or rather, cut-and-paste). This is why Google Translate is spotty.
Anyway, my take: popping in a game and coming away with an understanding of a foreign language is not like Neo downloading Kung Fu into his brain. It it were that easy, people wouldn't be out dropping $700 on Rosetta Stone software.
PS - Cheezy, you need to calm the fuck down.
How are steps one and two implicit to the medium? When I see medium used in this context, I immediately think of video games in general, but then you specify 'being a stranger in a strange land.' Are you saying all video games do this? I don't think you are, but I can't figure out what you mean. Sorry.
And step three may be implicit in a gaming model, but, as my example of dating games, it's not always clear-cut enough as to be effective.
My point was that I think video games could be a great tool for learning a language, but that I don't know of many games that have really taken advantage of this.
Like you, I also have a fun-yet-unproductive gaming habit, and would like to turn all those hours into something educational for purposes of self-betterment. I have had three years of French over high school and college courses, and one semester of Spanish in college. I've always been that guy who was interested in making friends with people I might be able to pick up cultural or language learning from.
Not everybody is like us, Cheezy. But that still doesn't leave room for nay-sayers. The fact is that corporations all over the world are increasingly embracing the concept of globalization. Car manufacturers, computer companies, etc are all faced with the task of localizing their product for a foreign market to use, so that they can get those sales. The gaming industry is doing this now. In fact, Localization in the gaming industry is so key that it is almost like its own little sub-industry. Here's a shocking fact: In days past, the process used to be "create video game-hire translators," But for video games being produced nowadays, the process looks more like: "Hire game designers-Hire translation team-work together on the game from beginning to end."
A question crosses my mind when I think about this: "Why would companies have to make one video game in several different languages, all in unison, and then separate those languages onto separate discs? If they're already going through the terribly complex trouble of co-translating games like Final Fantasy XIII from the ground up, why not leave all those languages on the same disc, like in a European version of a game? And instead of leaving them there as sort of dormant or dummied programming codes, why not utilize them throughout the game as tools for teaching people new languages?
When you gave commentary on Rex Dart's criteria, you said something about a "stranger in a strange land." I think the confusion was due to the fact that not all video games do this. Grand Theft Auto is a base reproduction of the American ghetto, and offers nothing "strange" about its "land" except for the fact that when a cop shoots you, you're not actually dead. You get to reload a save file and POOF, you're back! But if we're going for the "stranger in a strange land" approach, then the Shadow of Colossus is the most glaring and vibrant example I can imagine. Picture that kind of narrative style nested in a world with a geography more like that of Oblivion, and NOW you have something to run with! In oblivion, you have several sprawling cities with their own cultures already... why not give them different languages too? You can still let the development team go hog-wild and create a good 10-20 hours of story exclusive to the English-speaking city... (40 to 80 sounds better) But the achievements for the English city would amount to only about 10% of the game's total points. After you've prettymuch had your fun in the town of your native language, you'd still have a heaping handful of other cities to try to adapt yourself to. Add in a personal little tour guide, like one that Link might have had in Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess, and you have yourself an easy way to point out the words you need translated. Whip up a pull-down menu where you could access a translation guide, and you'd have all the basic tools you'd need to get the game rolling, and the minds of gamers expanding worldwide. (Always a good thing)
Until I had read your initial post, Cheezy, I had never heard of anything called a "Swadesh List."
Being inquisitive, I went and did my wiki homework on it, and the Swadesh list(s) I read about seem extensive enough to form a rudimentary foundation for the kind of game we're discussing here. Actually, I have to thank you for inadvertently teaching me something today, Cheezy. I am absolutely astounded with the progress that our human species has been making lately to better understand itself! It's only appropriate, considering the Internet we now have at our disposal... Is it just me, or do you also find it funny that our american internet seems bound-and-determined to hand you an American-generated website, no matter how specific you are in looking for a foreign site. "French poetry written by french people" would get you some Autobiographical wiki article written IN English about a famed French poet who wrote french poetry for french people. You wouldn't know unless you tried, but it's pretty absurd the amount of hoops you have to jump through and the amount of specification you have to employ to sort of "pierce the amniotic sac" of the American internet through Google. The Swadesh list(s) I read about seem extensive enough to form a rudimentary foundation for the kind of game we're discussing here.
Here's the final mind-blower. You ready? All that stuff about the Shadow of Colossus/Oblivion/Zelda game would be absolutely superior if it were an online, international MMO like World of Warcraft, would it not? I rest my case. If THAT kind of game were available, few other games would ever be played. You'd have a major hub city with a small offering of four languages, like the four ethnic quarters of any American city today, and then any time a new foreign country wanted to jump in, you could let them get to work on their own expansion pack and their own city in the outlying world map of the game. Done. Boom. Crack for the multi-lingual adventurer!
As to the nay-sayers who say you can't learn to write or speak a foreign language through a video game, you have not thought your positions through. XBOX 360 busts the verbal barrier already with its voice-activated Kinect, and Nintendo is only a step away from busting the written barrier by combining the DS peripheral-and-stylus with the Nintendo Wii. I haven't really done my research, but I'd heard rumors about this kind of thing already being done with the Wii U. Nobody ever said it would be easy. It will not be easy in the least. But we have definitely reached a point of sophistication as a species that we could really do this. And our current tech, combined with the artistry of our video-gaming world industry is finally at a level where we could practically pull it off. Cheezy, this is not just a pipe dream. I believe this is going to happen. But who will lead the charge? Keep on dreaming, man...