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Mehserle found guilty; Oakland (relatively) safe for now. [BART shooting]

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    I found this enlightening on the various possible charges:

    Murder: First Degree
    Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. Three days later, Dan waits behind a tree near Victor's front door. When Victor comes out of the house, Dan shoots and kills him.

    Murder: Second degree
    Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. At a stoplight the next day, Dan sees Victor riding in the passenger seat of a nearby car. Dan pulls out a gun and fires three shots into the car, missing Victor but killing the driver of the car.

    Manslaughter: Voluntary
    Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. In the heat of the moment, Dan picks up a golf club from next to the bed and strikes Victor in the head, killing him instantly.

    Manslaughter: Involuntary
    Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. Distraught, Dan heads to a local bar to drown his sorrows. After having five drinks, Dan jumps into his car and drives down the street at twice the posted speed limit, accidentally hitting and killing a pedestrian.

    Those are good, except for the last one, because most states have created separate vehicular homicide statutes that cover drunk driving. And in that particular example, one could argue that his behavior rises to depraved indifference or extreme recklessness, which in a lot of states could make it murder.

    Except that first degree murder also includes killing someone while committing another serious crime, whether or not it was deliberate.

    That's also on the page I linked, but I only posted the first example because it's the only relevant one.

    shryke on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    RUNN1NGMAN wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    I found this enlightening on the various possible charges:

    Murder: First Degree
    Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. Three days later, Dan waits behind a tree near Victor's front door. When Victor comes out of the house, Dan shoots and kills him.

    Murder: Second degree
    Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. At a stoplight the next day, Dan sees Victor riding in the passenger seat of a nearby car. Dan pulls out a gun and fires three shots into the car, missing Victor but killing the driver of the car.

    Manslaughter: Voluntary
    Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. In the heat of the moment, Dan picks up a golf club from next to the bed and strikes Victor in the head, killing him instantly.

    Manslaughter: Involuntary
    Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. Distraught, Dan heads to a local bar to drown his sorrows. After having five drinks, Dan jumps into his car and drives down the street at twice the posted speed limit, accidentally hitting and killing a pedestrian.

    Those are good, except for the last one, because most states have created separate vehicular homicide statutes that cover drunk driving. And in that particular example, one could argue that his behavior rises to depraved indifference or extreme recklessness, which in a lot of states could make it murder.

    Except that first degree murder also includes killing someone while committing another serious crime, whether or not it was deliberate.

    Right. If the prosecutor had managed to indict and convict him for another separate felony, that might have worked. To my knowledge, that was never attempted; the first-degree murder charge was just that, a first degree murder charge. Otherwise the prosecutor is stuck with an entirely separate burden of proving the underlying felony.

    Honestly, I'm pretty sure that involuntary manslaughter was much easer to prove than either your torture idea, or any felony battery, or any other felony. Which is to say that manslaughter was actually the easiest felony to prove against him.

    mcdermott on
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    DacDac Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Man, I missed like half my shift today because the theater I worked at had to shut down early - and for the entire weekend - for fear of more looting.

    Bleh.

    Dac on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Some motherfuckers probably would have still rioted if they had found him guilty of first degree murder, and treason, then had shot him right there in the courtroom. Seriously.

    mcdermott on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Thanatos, when you were going off on your cop hating rant in the whining forum, I pointed out that the community, cops, and civic government were all to blame for the current state of policing in the US.

    All you did was handwave and go off some more about "police unions". I don't think you're interested in debating as much as you are having a soapbox to let everyone know that yes, you dislike police.

    Yeah...that's a load of fucking bullshit. Or are you trying to tell me that the NYPD didn't riot back in the early 90s when the city government tried to increase police accountability?

    And of course, this is coming from a guy who has consistantly argued that he needs to be allowed to racially profile to do his job.

    Actually they didn't. I can't find a THING about any riots over civilian review boards. However!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Complaint_Review_Board

    Which apparently shows that there is a civilian review board, anyway, and there is no proof of any "riots" by the police over that. I know its easier for you to dismiss the idea that the community and civil government are part of the problem too, because jeeze that would mean that you can't scream about the pigs all the time.

    Also, I know you want to go into a neckbeard rage because you hear racial profiling, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

    You're right, it's not like there's any footage...

    Oh wait, you mean there IS footage? Including one Rudy Giuliani denouncing civilian accountability of the NYPD as "bullshit"?

    And here's an account by a New Yorker of that day. A profile of Rudy by the Grey Lady recounts the events of that day:
    Still, Mr. Giuliani took a fateful step that would for years prompt questions about his racial sensitivities. In September 1992, he spoke to a rally of police officers protesting Mr. Dinkins’s proposal for a civilian board to review police misconduct.

    It was a rowdy, often threatening, crowd. Hundreds of white off-duty officers drank heavily, and a few waved signs like “Dump the Washroom Attendant,” a reference to Mr. Dinkins. A block away from City Hall, Mr. Giuliani gave a fiery address, twice calling Mr. Dinkins’s proposal “bullshit.” The crowd cheered. Mr. Giuliani was jubilant.

    “If you’re acculturated to like cops, you don’t necessarily see 10,000 white guys who don’t vote in the city, don’t write political checks and love you for the wrong reason,” an aide said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he is working with the Giuliani presidential campaign.

    Mr. Dinkins has not forgotten that sea of angry cops. “Rudy was out there inciting white cops to riot,” Mr. Dinkins said in a recent interview.

    Mr. Giuliani said he never saw racist signs. “One of the reasons those police officers might have lost control is that we have a mayor who invites riots,” he said at the time. The Giuliani campaign later conducted a “vulnerability study” to identify their candidate’s weaknesses in 1993. This study, obtained by Wayne Barrett, author of “Rudy!” — an investigative biography — offers an unsparing critique: “Giuliani’s shrieking performance at the cop rally may be his greatest political liability this year. Giuliani has yet to admonish those who attacked the mayor with racist code words on signs and banners. Why not?”

    So, I guess the reason you couldn't find any evidence about the NYPD rioting was because you didn't look, huh?

    AngelHedgie on
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    DacDac Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Some motherfuckers probably would have still rioted if they had found him guilty of first degree murder, and treason, then had shot him right there in the courtroom. Seriously.

    Oh, obviously.

    TBH even I was slightly upset that he's only getting a few years, but like you said in the OP, it's lucky that he's getting anything at all. The gross negligence he showed made me really wish he would have gotten a harsher sentence... But that wouldn't have been in the spirit of the law, I suppose. Have to deal with the one-in-a-hundred jerkface that gets off easy to protect the other ninety-nine.

    Dac on
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    Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Rudy Guliani is bullshit incarnate.

    Just Like That on
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    Man in the MistsMan in the Mists Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Gotta love Biden for beheading Giuliani's presidential campaign without even breaking stride.

    Man in the Mists on
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    mythagomythago Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Some motherfuckers probably would have still rioted if they had found him guilty of first degree murder, and treason, then had shot him right there in the courtroom. Seriously.

    Yup. And there were clearly people who showed up not because they gave a shit about the verdict, but because they figured it would be good cover for looting. There were shopkeepers who told the looters "why are you doing this, we support Oscar Grant" and were told to back the fuck off, at gunpoint.

    I'm pretty pissed off at the national media coverage of the protests. They were largely peaceful and positive until after dark, when the Black Bloc assholes and the looters showed up. Needless to say, "not much happened most of the day" isn't news, and it especially doesn't fit the narrative of "darkies go crazy, you know how they do", so all the headlines were Violent Protests In Oakland.

    mythago on
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    delrolanddelroland Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    mythago wrote: »
    Yup. And there were clearly people who showed up not because they gave a shit about the verdict, but because they figured it would be good cover for looting. There were shopkeepers who told the looters "why are you doing this, we support Oscar Grant" and were told to back the fuck off, at gunpoint.

    I'm pretty pissed off at the national media coverage of the protests. They were largely peaceful and positive until after dark, when the Black Bloc assholes and the looters showed up. Needless to say, "not much happened most of the day" isn't news, and it especially doesn't fit the narrative of "darkies go crazy, you know how they do", so all the headlines were Violent Protests In Oakland.

    Um. From all the local coverage I've seen, no one had a gun or used a gun in any of the looting. I mean, obviously that doesn't make the looting somehow more excusable, but we shouldn't exaggerate the facts, either. And most television coverage (including national) of the looting that I've seen clearly stated that the original protests were peaceful, and that it wasn't until after nightfall that a group broke off the main protest to loot and riot. Of course they're not going to spend half their time talking about the peaceful protests, because nothing really happened that was newsworthy beyond what can be summed up in two or three sentences.

    delroland on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    delroland wrote: »
    mythago wrote: »
    Yup. And there were clearly people who showed up not because they gave a shit about the verdict, but because they figured it would be good cover for looting. There were shopkeepers who told the looters "why are you doing this, we support Oscar Grant" and were told to back the fuck off, at gunpoint.

    I'm pretty pissed off at the national media coverage of the protests. They were largely peaceful and positive until after dark, when the Black Bloc assholes and the looters showed up. Needless to say, "not much happened most of the day" isn't news, and it especially doesn't fit the narrative of "darkies go crazy, you know how they do", so all the headlines were Violent Protests In Oakland.

    Um. From all the local coverage I've seen, no one had a gun or used a gun in any of the looting. I mean, obviously that doesn't make the looting somehow more excusable, but we shouldn't exaggerate the facts, either. And most television coverage (including national) of the looting that I've seen clearly stated that the original protests were peaceful, and that it wasn't until after nightfall that a group broke off the main protest to loot and riot. Of course they're not going to spend half their time talking about the peaceful protests, because nothing really happened that was newsworthy beyond what can be summed up in two or three sentences.

    As the saying goes, "if it bleeds, it leads."

    And I'm still waiting for legion's response. Not really expecting one, though.

    AngelHedgie on
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    legionofonelegionofone __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2010

    And I'm still waiting for legion's response. Not really expecting one, though.

    I don't sit with baited breath over the keyboard like you apparently do for internet arguments. Especially when you're going to post "NUH UH" and then either start pounding the keyboard about what a racisty racist I am or link to something ridiculous to prove your "point".

    You didn't link ANYTHING that proved a riot occurred.

    You linked what is pretty much a story (as in fiction) from LowerManhattanite, who I know pretty commonly exaggerates and has a huge hard on against the NYPD. Like as big as Thanatos' phobia of cops in general. I know this because I posted on that blog long before Steve ended up dying. And every single other post of his was either "The MAN keeping my people down" or 9/11 fanfiction.

    That's hardly an unbiased source, for one thing. And your NY Times article describes a rowdy crowd at a political gathering, hardly the "riot" you keep talking about in breathless tones and you want so hard to be real so you can win internet arguments. A single quote from Mayor Dinkins does not make a "riot", nor does a bunch of ancedotes from a blog.

    So yeah, I did look for "proof", and there wasn't anything about a riot. Apparently you dug up some stuff that you really wish was a riot. Try reading your links next time.

    legionofone on
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    legionofonelegionofone __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Thanatos, when you were going off on your cop hating rant in the whining forum, I pointed out that the community, cops, and civic government were all to blame for the current state of policing in the US.

    All you did was handwave and go off some more about "police unions". I don't think you're interested in debating as much as you are having a soapbox to let everyone know that yes, you dislike police.
    No, what I said was that yes, the community and civic government are to blame for that, but it's as if the police unions are holding a fucking gun to their heads.
    Which isn't true and is a convenient excuse for you. It does nothing to explain why civic government uses the police as its personal money makers (in enforcing fines and fees) in lieu of raising taxes...
    Because it's politically easier, and because the police fight any effort at reforming the criminal code (thereby giving them less of a right to harass people) tooth and nail.
    ...why urban neighborhoods beatify slain drug dealers who were killed in the middle of shooting at the police...
    Because most of them have had more bad experiences with cops than they have had bad experiences with violent criminals.
    ...and why suburban neighborhoods want "tough on crime!!!" action after a scary black on white crime pops their security bubble.
    Because the police unions use fear as a tactic in order to insure that they get everything they want, and fuck over society in the process.
    But yeah, police unions, got it.
    Good, I'm glad I'm finally getting through.

    Like I said, you refuse to accept that anyone else has any responsibility, just going to keep crying about police unions and having a fit over police doing their jobs.

    Police unions are not the League Of Evil Dudes or something, with insane super powers that you seem so hellbent on giving them.

    You have a really weird psychosis about police forces. Its obvious you can't be expected to talk rationally on the issue.

    I fully expect another "police unions" whine from you.

    legionofone on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    hotlunch wrote: »
    Honestly? I want this fucker to go to gen pop and be subjected to the worst of our justice system. I think the way anyone gets treated in prison is fucking awful, but if anyone deserves it, its a cop who abuses his power.

    I ask what will happen to him not because I want him to be safe and cozy, but because I have no idea what will happen and am legitimately curious
    He'll be sentenced to five years at the state equivalent of a club fed (minimum security, full of amenities, segregated living). He'll serve maybe three years of that, but it will probably be more like twelve to eighteen months. If the courts actually go through with their orders to the state to reduce the prison population, he will doubtlessly be one of the people set free.

    Well, I hope the guy isn't tortured to death or raped while he's in prison. He deserves to be jailed, and he deserves a criminal record, and he got off with a far lesser charge than what he was owed, but I don't see what we gain by tormenting or executing criminals. I don't agree with what happened to Gardner in Utah and would not agree with tossing a bad cop (and I'm pretty damn anti-cop, especially after my experience with Mugabe's goons) to the sharks. It won't bring back the man he shot, or fix the state of policing in America. It'll just be one more horrible thing that resulted from his malice and/or incompetence.

    If we're reasonably sure that putting him (or any other criminal, cop or otherwise) in general population is going to get them killed, mutilated, etc, we shouldn't be putting them in the damn general population. I mean, what the Hell? If we're going to do that, we may as well just drop the pretenses and walk him out to the gallows.

    The Ender on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2010

    And I'm still waiting for legion's response. Not really expecting one, though.

    I don't sit with baited breath over the keyboard like you apparently do for internet arguments. Especially when you're going to post "NUH UH" and then either start pounding the keyboard about what a racisty racist I am or link to something ridiculous to prove your "point".

    You didn't link ANYTHING that proved a riot occurred.

    You linked what is pretty much a story (as in fiction) from LowerManhattanite, who I know pretty commonly exaggerates and has a huge hard on against the NYPD. Like as big as Thanatos' phobia of cops in general. I know this because I posted on that blog long before Steve ended up dying. And every single other post of his was either "The MAN keeping my people down" or 9/11 fanfiction.

    That's hardly an unbiased source, for one thing. And your NY Times article describes a rowdy crowd at a political gathering, hardly the "riot" you keep talking about in breathless tones and you want so hard to be real so you can win internet arguments. A single quote from Mayor Dinkins does not make a "riot", nor does a bunch of ancedotes from a blog.

    So yeah, I did look for "proof", and there wasn't anything about a riot. Apparently you dug up some stuff that you really wish was a riot. Try reading your links next time.

    So focused on the trees, you continue to miss the forest around you.

    See, when you have a crowd of people who are carrying around signs full of racist imagery, breaking down barricades, and using racist epithets to describe elected officials, I would think the term "riot" would be warranted:
    Cops carried signs that said "Dump the Washroom Attendant," "Mayor, have you hugged your dealer today" and "Dinkins, We Know Your True-Color--Yellow Bellied." Drawings on their homemade posters depicted the mayor in a '60s Afro with giant lips, or engaged in kinky sex acts. They broke through police barricades and stormed the steps of City Hall, cheering "Take the Hall!" and banging on windows... They chanted "Rudy, Rudy," in thunderous rhythm, as he worked his way through the nearly all-white mob, beaming, backslapping, posing for photos, pumping his fist. WCBC-TV camerman John Haygood was called a n*. Una Clarke, a city councilwoman from Brooklyn, was stopped by an off-duty copy with a beer in his hand who said to his sidekick: "This n* says she's a member of the City Council."

    But more importantly than that, what was shown in the video puts the lie to your assertion that "everyone's to blame". What you have there was 10,000 off-duty NYPD officers protesting against increased civilian oversight. And that pretty much says it all. Oh, and who organized this "political gathering"? Why, it was the Patrolman's Benevolent Assosciation. And the CCRB you mentioned earlier? There's a strong sense that it's pretty much useless, neutered by politicians afraid to upset the politically powerful police union.

    And that is the reason why your "everyone's to blame" assertion is false. Yes, politicians share some blame, but at the same time it's hard to fault them for having to play nice with politically powerful police unions that can end their careers. (This, by the way, has been Thanatos' assertion from the beginning - that police unions are exceptionally politically powerful and very politically savvy, and use that to make sure that they are well protected.) Communities don't trust the police - but when the police oppose any form of community oversight, why would they?

    Which is why I look forward to the demographic shift in the US to majority minority status. Because much of the power of the police unions is tied to their ability to influence the privileged white majority to vote the way they'd like through "tough on crime" rhetoric. But once that majority ceases to exist, so does much of that soft power.

    AngelHedgie on
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    legionofonelegionofone __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2010
    The Ender wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    hotlunch wrote: »
    Honestly? I want this fucker to go to gen pop and be subjected to the worst of our justice system. I think the way anyone gets treated in prison is fucking awful, but if anyone deserves it, its a cop who abuses his power.

    I ask what will happen to him not because I want him to be safe and cozy, but because I have no idea what will happen and am legitimately curious
    He'll be sentenced to five years at the state equivalent of a club fed (minimum security, full of amenities, segregated living). He'll serve maybe three years of that, but it will probably be more like twelve to eighteen months. If the courts actually go through with their orders to the state to reduce the prison population, he will doubtlessly be one of the people set free.

    Well, I hope the guy isn't tortured to death or raped while he's in prison. He deserves to be jailed, and he deserves a criminal record, and he got off with a far lesser charge than what he was owed, but I don't see what we gain by tormenting or executing criminals. I don't agree with what happened to Gardner in Utah and would not agree with tossing a bad cop (and I'm pretty damn anti-cop, especially after my experience with Mugabe's goons) to the sharks. It won't bring back the man he shot, or fix the state of policing in America. It'll just be one more horrible thing that resulted from his malice and/or incompetence.

    If we're reasonably sure that putting him (or any other criminal, cop or otherwise) in general population is going to get them killed, mutilated, etc, we shouldn't be putting them in the damn general population. I mean, what the Hell? If we're going to do that, we may as well just drop the pretenses and walk him out to the gallows.

    No you don't get it. To Thanatos cops aren't really people, so if you do bad things to them then its alright.
    The irony is he has become what he hates.

    legionofone on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    No you don't get it. To Thanatos cops aren't really people, so if you do bad things to them then its alright.

    Well, I mean, I'm almost to the point of considering cops to be inhuman; I just don't understand what great and wonderful thing could possibly come from putting some asshole to death or ensuring he gets raped.


    I hate cops. I was permanently disfigured by state police in South Africa (I was being a pretentious fucking moron, but I was nineteen and hardly deserved the baton swing that would darken my smile forever), so that's my bias.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    legionofonelegionofone __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2010
    The Ender wrote: »
    No you don't get it. To Thanatos cops aren't really people, so if you do bad things to them then its alright.

    Well, I mean, I'm almost to the point of considering cops to be inhuman; I just don't understand what great and wonderful thing could possibly come from putting some asshole to death or ensuring he gets raped.


    I hate cops. I was permanently disfigured by state police in South Africa (I was being a pretentious fucking moron, but I was nineteen and hardly deserved the baton swing that would darken my smile forever), so that's my bias.

    I feel for you there, but if I went around saying I hated black people because I got the shit stabbed out of me when one tried to mug me (yes really) then I'd have no end of people screaming about how wrong racism is and how you can't judge a group of people based on the actions of one.

    Yet that is exactly what I see here. Maybe its just the forum and cop hate being "okay" among these educated elites that populate it, but w/e.

    But I don't think the police here in the US have anything on the shit that SA police have going on. Its why I roll my eyes so hard at Thanatos when he goes off. He's a cottage cheese coloured white boy who lives in a safety net provided by the people he rails so hard against. He's comparing his "hardships" of getting stopped and asked for his ID to your getting your head caved in, which is kind of LOL and a little sad.

    Sorry about your face though. I know its not much but its all I got.

    legionofone on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I feel for you there, but if I went around saying I hated black people because I got the shit stabbed out of me when one tried to mug me (yes really) then I'd have no end of people screaming about how wrong racism is and how you can't judge a group of people based on the actions of one.

    Yet that is exactly what I see here. Maybe its just the forum and cop hate being "okay" among these educated elites that populate it, but w/e.

    But I don't think the police here in the US have anything on the shit that SA police have going on. Its why I roll my eyes so hard at Thanatos when he goes off. He's a cottage cheese coloured white boy who lives in a safety net provided by the people he rails so hard against. He's comparing his "hardships" of getting stopped and asked for his ID to your getting your head caved in, which is kind of LOL and a little sad.

    Sorry about your face though. I know its not much but its all I got.

    I'm starting to get over my face (well, it was specifically my teeth on the right side that were permanently punched-out) - it was six years ago. And thanks.


    Yes, my bias is too broad and irrational as such, but it is what it is. I see a cop and the first thought to pop in my head is, "Fucking asshole." I know it's not true most of the time, but I'd be dishonest to tell you that I'm all fine and well right now with anyone choosing that career path.

    It's the fact that they can (and sometimes do) smash you up and get away with it by shrugging and claiming that they were just 'doing what they had to do'. It's what the SA officers told the non-proft I was with, and it's what the RCMP up here do after they've unloaded cans full of mace into the faces of protesters or beaten drunks to a bloody pulp. "Oh, that 90 lb inebriated girl was resisting arrest. That's why we broke her nose and wrenched her arm so badly she's in a cast."

    Not all cops are like that, you don't need to tell me; it's the whole attitude of 'police are working on behalf of the state, ergo the rules don't apply to them' that's appalling to me aside from my bias.

    EDIT: Just as some meager defense, I'd argue that there's a meaningful difference between racism and hatred of a particular profession / people that choose a particular profession. You have some choice over whether or not to become a police officer, and there are also some regular behaviors & activities police officers are expected / mandated to adhere to.

    The Ender on
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    TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    The police react as would a violent gang when faced with the increased chance that they'll be held accountable for their actions? Shocking.

    Anyone who thinks their physical safety or at the very least their freedom wouldn't be in immediate peril if they were on the street with a sign demanding more police oversight or less police funding is delusional.

    TL DR on
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2010
    The Ender wrote: »
    No you don't get it. To Thanatos cops aren't really people, so if you do bad things to them then its alright.

    Well, I mean, I'm almost to the point of considering cops to be inhuman; I just don't understand what great and wonderful thing could possibly come from putting some asshole to death or ensuring he gets raped.


    I hate cops. I was permanently disfigured by state police in South Africa (I was being a pretentious fucking moron, but I was nineteen and hardly deserved the baton swing that would darken my smile forever), so that's my bias.

    I feel for you there, but if I went around saying I hated black people because I got the shit stabbed out of me when one tried to mug me (yes really) then I'd have no end of people screaming about how wrong racism is and how you can't judge a group of people based on the actions of one.

    Yet that is exactly what I see here. Maybe its just the forum and cop hate being "okay" among these educated elites that populate it, but w/e.

    But I don't think the police here in the US have anything on the shit that SA police have going on. Its why I roll my eyes so hard at Thanatos when he goes off. He's a cottage cheese coloured white boy who lives in a safety net provided by the people he rails so hard against. He's comparing his "hardships" of getting stopped and asked for his ID to your getting your head caved in, which is kind of LOL and a little sad.

    Sorry about your face though. I know its not much but its all I got.

    But if you were shot by a gang member, you'd be within your rights to hate gangs. Ender was battered by by a gang member, and his friends were brutalized by the rest of the gang's local branch. It just happens that the gang wears blue and isn't made up of black people.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
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    Just Like ThatJust Like That Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    It's been said before, but cops chose to be cops, while black people did not choose to be black. Hating cops is not the same thing as hating black people.

    Just Like That on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    It's been said before, but cops chose to be cops, while black people did not choose to be black. Hating cops is not the same thing as hating black people.

    Well, that one line says more about legion's character than anything any of us could ever say.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    No you don't get it. To Thanatos cops aren't really people, so if you do bad things to them then its alright.

    Well, I mean, I'm almost to the point of considering cops to be inhuman; I just don't understand what great and wonderful thing could possibly come from putting some asshole to death or ensuring he gets raped.


    I hate cops. I was permanently disfigured by state police in South Africa (I was being a pretentious fucking moron, but I was nineteen and hardly deserved the baton swing that would darken my smile forever), so that's my bias.

    I feel for you there, but if I went around saying I hated black people because I got the shit stabbed out of me when one tried to mug me (yes really) then I'd have no end of people screaming about how wrong racism is and how you can't judge a group of people based on the actions of one.

    Yet that is exactly what I see here. Maybe its just the forum and cop hate being "okay" among these educated elites that populate it, but w/e.

    But I don't think the police here in the US have anything on the shit that SA police have going on. Its why I roll my eyes so hard at Thanatos when he goes off. He's a cottage cheese coloured white boy who lives in a safety net provided by the people he rails so hard against. He's comparing his "hardships" of getting stopped and asked for his ID to your getting your head caved in, which is kind of LOL and a little sad.

    Sorry about your face though. I know its not much but its all I got.

    But if you were shot by a gang member, you'd be within your rights to hate gangs. Ender was battered by by a gang member, and his friends were brutalized by the rest of the gang's local branch. It just happens that the gang wears blue and isn't made up of black people.

    The main difference here though is that in your example you are hating the gang for doing what gangs do.

    Hating all police for one of them doing what the police aren't supposed to be doing is a little strange. Though understandable if you are in a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing.

    shryke on
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    The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    No you don't get it. To Thanatos cops aren't really people, so if you do bad things to them then its alright.

    Well, I mean, I'm almost to the point of considering cops to be inhuman; I just don't understand what great and wonderful thing could possibly come from putting some asshole to death or ensuring he gets raped.


    I hate cops. I was permanently disfigured by state police in South Africa (I was being a pretentious fucking moron, but I was nineteen and hardly deserved the baton swing that would darken my smile forever), so that's my bias.

    I feel for you there, but if I went around saying I hated black people because I got the shit stabbed out of me when one tried to mug me (yes really) then I'd have no end of people screaming about how wrong racism is and how you can't judge a group of people based on the actions of one.

    Yet that is exactly what I see here. Maybe its just the forum and cop hate being "okay" among these educated elites that populate it, but w/e.

    But I don't think the police here in the US have anything on the shit that SA police have going on. Its why I roll my eyes so hard at Thanatos when he goes off. He's a cottage cheese coloured white boy who lives in a safety net provided by the people he rails so hard against. He's comparing his "hardships" of getting stopped and asked for his ID to your getting your head caved in, which is kind of LOL and a little sad.

    Sorry about your face though. I know its not much but its all I got.

    But if you were shot by a gang member, you'd be within your rights to hate gangs. Ender was battered by by a gang member, and his friends were brutalized by the rest of the gang's local branch. It just happens that the gang wears blue and isn't made up of black people.

    Except gang members are inherently bad people so the analogy still falls apart.

    The Muffin Man on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    The main difference here though is that in your example you are hating the gang for doing what gangs do.

    Hating all police for one of them doing what the police aren't supposed to be doing is a little strange. Though understandable if you are in a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing.

    You have heard of "the blue wall of silence", right?

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    The main difference here though is that in your example you are hating the gang for doing what gangs do.

    Hating all police for one of them doing what the police aren't supposed to be doing is a little strange. Though understandable if you are in a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing.

    You have heard of "the blue wall of silence", right?

    Yes, but it has nothing to do with what I posted.

    shryke on
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    Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The main difference here though is that in your example you are hating the gang for doing what gangs do.

    Hating all police for one of them doing what the police aren't supposed to be doing is a little strange. Though understandable if you are in a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing.

    You have heard of "the blue wall of silence", right?

    Yes, but it has nothing to do with what I posted.

    it really does, though. the whole point of this argument is that everyone basically agrees that every single cop isn't shooting unarmed kids and tasering old women while they're lying in their beds, but the fact that every fucking cop will stick up for a crooked one makes it really hard to differentiate.

    the entire united states is a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing. or never doing shit they are supposed to be doing.

    Typhoid Manny on
    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    No you don't get it. To Thanatos cops aren't really people, so if you do bad things to them then its alright.

    Well, I mean, I'm almost to the point of considering cops to be inhuman; I just don't understand what great and wonderful thing could possibly come from putting some asshole to death or ensuring he gets raped.


    I hate cops. I was permanently disfigured by state police in South Africa (I was being a pretentious fucking moron, but I was nineteen and hardly deserved the baton swing that would darken my smile forever), so that's my bias.

    I feel for you there, but if I went around saying I hated black people because I got the shit stabbed out of me when one tried to mug me (yes really) then I'd have no end of people screaming about how wrong racism is and how you can't judge a group of people based on the actions of one.

    Yet that is exactly what I see here. Maybe its just the forum and cop hate being "okay" among these educated elites that populate it, but w/e.

    But I don't think the police here in the US have anything on the shit that SA police have going on. Its why I roll my eyes so hard at Thanatos when he goes off. He's a cottage cheese coloured white boy who lives in a safety net provided by the people he rails so hard against. He's comparing his "hardships" of getting stopped and asked for his ID to your getting your head caved in, which is kind of LOL and a little sad.

    Sorry about your face though. I know its not much but its all I got.

    But if you were shot by a gang member, you'd be within your rights to hate gangs. Ender was battered by by a gang member, and his friends were brutalized by the rest of the gang's local branch. It just happens that the gang wears blue and isn't made up of black people.

    Except gang members are inherently bad people so the analogy still falls apart.

    Okay, there's two problems with what you're swaying:
    That difference doesn't have any effect on the analogy
    That's not a difference.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The main difference here though is that in your example you are hating the gang for doing what gangs do.

    Hating all police for one of them doing what the police aren't supposed to be doing is a little strange. Though understandable if you are in a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing.

    You have heard of "the blue wall of silence", right?

    Yes, but it has nothing to do with what I posted.

    it really does, though. the whole point of this argument is that everyone basically agrees that every single cop isn't shooting unarmed kids and tasering old women while they're lying in their beds, but the fact that every fucking cop will stick up for a crooked one makes it really hard to differentiate.

    the entire united states is a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing. or never doing shit they are supposed to be doing.

    Uh huh. It still doesn't make any sense and neither does the analogy.

    You are saying it's ok to hate all cops because one cop was a dick to you and you feel that no cops will turn on him for it.

    shryke on
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    Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    it's not a feeling so much as it's objective fact, and i don't hate all cops

    but i'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you've never been unduly fucked with by the police

    Typhoid Manny on
    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    it's not a feeling so much as it's objective fact, and i don't hate all cops

    Uh huh. Yeah.
    but i'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that you've never been unduly fucked with by the police

    Yeah, it's almost like there's tons of good cops out there, just doing their jobs.

    shryke on
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    Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    ok you don't seem to be interested in actually discussing this, so forget it

    anyway, the fact that this dude got convicted is a huge deal. when he shot the kid i was certain he wouldn't even be charged with anything, let alone sentenced to actual time in prison.

    he's getting off way easier than a non-cop would've, but baby steps

    Typhoid Manny on
    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The main difference here though is that in your example you are hating the gang for doing what gangs do.

    Hating all police for one of them doing what the police aren't supposed to be doing is a little strange. Though understandable if you are in a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing.

    You have heard of "the blue wall of silence", right?

    Yes, but it has nothing to do with what I posted.

    it really does, though. the whole point of this argument is that everyone basically agrees that every single cop isn't shooting unarmed kids and tasering old women while they're lying in their beds, but the fact that every fucking cop will stick up for a crooked one makes it really hard to differentiate.

    the entire united states is a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing. or never doing shit they are supposed to be doing.

    Uh huh. It still doesn't make any sense and neither does the analogy.

    You are saying it's ok to hate all cops because one cop was a dick to you and you feel that no cops will turn on him for it.

    Yes, refusing to do your job because it might make someone you know actually have to take responsibility for brutality is generally held to be a good reason to not like you.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The main difference here though is that in your example you are hating the gang for doing what gangs do.

    Hating all police for one of them doing what the police aren't supposed to be doing is a little strange. Though understandable if you are in a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing.

    You have heard of "the blue wall of silence", right?

    Yes, but it has nothing to do with what I posted.

    it really does, though. the whole point of this argument is that everyone basically agrees that every single cop isn't shooting unarmed kids and tasering old women while they're lying in their beds, but the fact that every fucking cop will stick up for a crooked one makes it really hard to differentiate.

    the entire united states is a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing. or never doing shit they are supposed to be doing.

    Uh huh. It still doesn't make any sense and neither does the analogy.

    You are saying it's ok to hate all cops because one cop was a dick to you and you feel that no cops will turn on him for it.

    Yes, refusing to do your job because it might make someone you know actually have to take responsibility for brutality is generally held to be a good reason to not like you.

    Yes, and when a cop does do it, you can hate that cop for it.

    That doesn't make hating all cops for something one cop did, that he wasn't even supposed to be doing, any less irrational.

    shryke on
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The main difference here though is that in your example you are hating the gang for doing what gangs do.

    Hating all police for one of them doing what the police aren't supposed to be doing is a little strange. Though understandable if you are in a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing.

    You have heard of "the blue wall of silence", right?

    Yes, but it has nothing to do with what I posted.

    it really does, though. the whole point of this argument is that everyone basically agrees that every single cop isn't shooting unarmed kids and tasering old women while they're lying in their beds, but the fact that every fucking cop will stick up for a crooked one makes it really hard to differentiate.

    the entire united states is a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing. or never doing shit they are supposed to be doing.

    Uh huh. It still doesn't make any sense and neither does the analogy.

    You are saying it's ok to hate all cops because one cop was a dick to you and you feel that no cops will turn on him for it.

    Yes, refusing to do your job because it might make someone you know actually have to take responsibility for brutality is generally held to be a good reason to not like you.

    Yes, and when a cop does do it, you can hate that cop for it.

    That doesn't make hating all cops for something one cop did, that he wasn't even supposed to be doing, any less irrational.

    I can hate all the other cops for supporting him.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The main difference here though is that in your example you are hating the gang for doing what gangs do.

    Hating all police for one of them doing what the police aren't supposed to be doing is a little strange. Though understandable if you are in a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing.

    You have heard of "the blue wall of silence", right?

    Yes, but it has nothing to do with what I posted.

    it really does, though. the whole point of this argument is that everyone basically agrees that every single cop isn't shooting unarmed kids and tasering old women while they're lying in their beds, but the fact that every fucking cop will stick up for a crooked one makes it really hard to differentiate.

    the entire united states is a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing. or never doing shit they are supposed to be doing.

    Uh huh. It still doesn't make any sense and neither does the analogy.

    You are saying it's ok to hate all cops because one cop was a dick to you and you feel that no cops will turn on him for it.

    Yes, refusing to do your job because it might make someone you know actually have to take responsibility for brutality is generally held to be a good reason to not like you.

    Yes, and when a cop does do it, you can hate that cop for it.

    That doesn't make hating all cops for something one cop did, that he wasn't even supposed to be doing, any less irrational.

    I can hate all the other cops for supporting him.

    How do you know they all support him?

    shryke on
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The main difference here though is that in your example you are hating the gang for doing what gangs do.

    Hating all police for one of them doing what the police aren't supposed to be doing is a little strange. Though understandable if you are in a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing.

    You have heard of "the blue wall of silence", right?

    Yes, but it has nothing to do with what I posted.

    it really does, though. the whole point of this argument is that everyone basically agrees that every single cop isn't shooting unarmed kids and tasering old women while they're lying in their beds, but the fact that every fucking cop will stick up for a crooked one makes it really hard to differentiate.

    the entire united states is a region where the police are always doing shit they aren't supposed to be doing. or never doing shit they are supposed to be doing.

    Uh huh. It still doesn't make any sense and neither does the analogy.

    You are saying it's ok to hate all cops because one cop was a dick to you and you feel that no cops will turn on him for it.

    Yes, refusing to do your job because it might make someone you know actually have to take responsibility for brutality is generally held to be a good reason to not like you.

    Yes, and when a cop does do it, you can hate that cop for it.

    That doesn't make hating all cops for something one cop did, that he wasn't even supposed to be doing, any less irrational.

    I can hate all the other cops for supporting him.

    How do you know they all support him?

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    When was the last time you saw a news story where a cop did something stupid and his department actually even critized him for it?

    When was the last time they staged protests, walkouts, etc in support of him?

    Hint: #2 happens A LOT more.

    Phoenix-D on
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    Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    did you catch the thread the other day in which everyone was genuinely surprised a cop in texas got fired and charged for raping a woman?

    the police consider themselves a class apart from normal citizens in a way completely different from any other civil servant. their unions make it abundantly clear that they really don't give a shit about protecting and serving, and that private citizens have no right to make sure they're not fucking around on the job, even though we're the ones who pay them. honestly, if you don't see this you don't want to see it.

    Typhoid Manny on
    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
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