Black Tarantuala is that huge South American wrestler guy, right? I don't read Daredevil (or spider-man), but he seems awesome. He seems like he could be Spider-man's Bane analog, but I have no idea.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
For a guy who doesn't care about comics he sure knows a lot about the industry still.
I've gotten to the point where I tune him out, unless something new comes up. The whole thing about Dave Gibbons calling him to thank him is kind of odd, since I would consider Gibbons to be another key factor to the story (kind of like how Alex Ross gets more credit for Kingdom Come than Waid does, it should be 50/50).
But what it ultimately comes down to in my mind is that Alan Moore was on the Simpsons in a terrible episode during the current terrible reign of seasons, when the shows was going through the motions and being nothing but a cash cow staple, the same way he lambastes the comics industry and how everyone is gunning for all this Watchmen stuff. Maybe he's mastered magic so that throwing stones in his glass castle teleports them safely into the garden?
I think Moore's got some legitimate beef with DC and the industry in general regarding the way the creative talent have been treated. They keep trying to treat him like money is his only driving force, when it's pretty fucking clear that the integrity of his work is more important to him. He doesn't give a shit about DC's bottom line, doesn't have to, and cares even less as they try to hamfistedly make him give them permission to pimp out his greatest work.
His shots at current creators is kinda unfair, but at least I can see his point about how bankrupt DC and Marvel are of ideas when they're still trying to exploit shit he did 25 years ago.
Number of very good points in that interview, and I can definately understand his position, and respect that he places his artistic integrity over money.
I'll give Moore and Gibbons this - DC totally fucked them out of the Watchmen rights way back when. Moore couldn't have predicted that they'd keep the book in print for 20+ years straight.
But is he not being kind of a dick to David Lloyd and Dave Gibbons? I wouldn't know if a guy was serious if he told me to call him and thank him for the money.
I dunno, it was a lot of money he passed onto them, and all he really wanted from them, two people he considered friends, was a thank you call. Maybe he's being a little harsh with Lloyd, but Gibbons deserves it for crossing a line that Moore had warned would probably end their friendship.
I guess my feeling is that if you decide to end a 25-year-long friendship because a guy might unknowingly be used as a tool by The Man, then maybe the friendship wasn't worth that much to begin with? I suspect there might be ways of working that shit out beyond severing all contact. That's really the only part that really irks me about this: Moore honestly giving up on Lloyd because the latter didn't call him to thank him for money (like, seriously? Why should he? You didn't give up the rights because you wanted Lloyd to have more money, you gave them up because YOU didn't want anything to do with the movie), and Moore valuing lack-of-contact-with-DC over his friendship with Gibbons.
Look, I'm sorry, but hinging a friendship on a single "thank you" is the dickest move.
That being said, I'm not an artist, I've never created a work that is in an even remotely comparable place as Watchmen, and I've never had to deal with the shit Moore's dealing with. Dude's certainly entitled to his opinions and interpretations (even though I find the super-villainy he attributes to DC execs to be kind of cartoonishly laughable).
His shots at current creators is kinda unfair, but at least I can see his point about how bankrupt DC and Marvel are of ideas when they're still trying to exploit shit he did 25 years ago.
To be fair to them, it sometimes seems that that is all the buying market actually wants to see.
I dunno, if I told someone to give my friend a big pile of money, when I could have A) taken it or just refused it, ensuring neither I nor my friend got it, I'd want a, "Thank you." I don't think I'd terminate a friendship over it, but if they were really a friend, I think it's the least they could do.
With Gibbons, I think Moore has a more valid point. If I had someone calling me up every day, trying to convince me to do some shit I didn't want to do, or constantly making reference to a sore spot in my life, I'd want to stop talking to them too. Unfortunately, Watchmen's rights seem to be in something of a tangle, where they might actually require Moore's sign-off to do spin-off properties. And with DC now being DC Entertainment, you know they're looking to exploit that property however they can.
And while I don't think DC's really so conspiratorial as to deny work to Steven Moore just to punish Alan, I can definitely see how he'd feel that way. Seriously, let's look at the laundry list of shit he's put up with, in no particular order:
-Made Watchmen; lost the rights in a legal snafu; Watchmen movie is made, and hounded by legal problems
-Made V for Vendetta; lost the rights in a legal snafu; V movie is made; a studio executive falsely attributes quotes to Alan, in order to promote the movie
-Revitalized the Miracleman property, which has been hounded by legal troubles
-Made LoEG; allowed the movie to be made, and was subsequently dragged into court, in what he felt was one of the worst moments of his recent life
-Finally said fuck it, and went to work for Jim Lee at Wildstorm, creating the ABC Universe along with his collaborators; DC buys Wildstorm, and all of Moore's new characters with it; DC forces a change in a League of Extraordinary Gentlemen book, finally prompting Moore to proclaim, "Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're cool, and fuck you, I'm out!"
Really, if no one's ever read Portrait of an Extraordinary Gentleman, you should. It's just a book-long interview with Moore, and really endeared the dude to me. Sure he's a cranky old man, and he paints the comic industry with a wide brush, but from his viewpoint, it's pretty understandable. When he's not talking about shit that pisses him off, he comes off as really funny and self deprecating. Plus, without that book, I'd have never known Moore began his comics career doing what was essentially a Garfield rip-off for a local paper. Which amuses me to no end.
I'll take Moore's side on this wrt DC executives and editorial fucking over the creators. There's more evidence of this being true than there is of Moore being crazy or selfish or petulant. Gibbons fucked up by not respecting Moore enough to stop being a messenger for DC. Yeah, there was lots of money involved, but he had to weigh that against losing Moore's friendship, and he clearly made his choice.
The comics industry is small and insular, and if nothing else it should be apparent that personal relationships matter. They can and will make or break deals. But the executives don't know or don't care, they see the bottom line and think that money solves all problems. As long as they think that and ignore the human relationship element AND continue to act like past grievances don't need to be rectified, Moore and others will be the end result.
Yeah, I mean, I think Moore's more justified in what he did with Gibbons than with Lloyd, but like I said, I feel like there has to be a better way to salvage a 25-year-long relationship. Fuck, they've been friends for as long as I've been alive, you know? Agreed, totally dick move on Gibbons's part to keep harping on the subject (and I'm not sure it was appropriate for him to say in an interview or whatever that Moore asked him not to discuss Watchmen with him; that seems like a pretty private thing), but... I guess I just value friendship highly, and have not had to engage my artistic integrity often enough to know how I'd value it.
All that being said, Moore's definitely gone through the dirtiest, muckiest parts of the comic books industry, and had to deal with some indefensible moves and practices. I'm not surprised that he has a dim view of the whole thing, and can't blame him for wanting to be rid of it. (Of course, that's not really an excuse for dissing creators currently working in the industry.)
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
What I wonder is why he doesn't get all miffed with Jim Lee, since Lee chased that all ighty ollar too.
Hell, Moore got pissed off at Quesada simply for not including a sentence or two of copy in the legalese stuff in the reprints of Moore and Davis' Captain Britain TPB's a few years back.
How has Moore's work measured up now that he has left the mainstream industry, and can indulge his artistic integrity to the max? The only Moore works outside of DC that I've read are Top 10, Smax, Promethea, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and Lost Girls. And, I mean, those were all pretty great, but not what I would call revolutionary. (Which is fine - can't expect the dude to pump out nothing but revolutionary works.)
What I wonder is why he doesn't get all miffed with Jim Lee, since Lee chased that all ighty ollar too.
Hell, Moore got pissed off at Quesada simply for not including a sentence or two of copy in the legalese stuff in the reprints of Moore and Davis' Captain Britain TPB's a few years back.
From some of what I read, Lee fought really hard on Moore's behalf, trying to keep DC away from his work.
And on the Quesada thing, I seem to recall that was when Joe took over, and was trying to mend fences with some creators, going so far as to promise Moore that he'd be properly credited on the Captain Britain thing, and then failing to follow through. Since then it's been corrected.
As for Moore's work since leaving mainstream comics, I've not read much of it. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Century V. 1 was good, but man, I really wish Moore wouldn't put so much rape in his work. It's like, the one major sticking point I always come to when reading his stuff. It doesn't grate nearly as much as it would in a mainstream superhero comic, but the dude returns to that well so often, it's become bothersome.
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
Yeah, Quesada tried to fix things with Moore, but a printing mistake made Moore hate them all. Quesada didn't even need to do it, I think Jemas was of the "fuck Moore" line of thought too, so Quesada was going above and beyond what was necessary.
I don't know, it just seems like Moore doesn't know when a mistake is just that, and not some grand conspiracy. If his family cooked him breakfast and burned the toast, that doesn't mean they did it on purpose.
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
but what if they did?
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
I guess it would be a burnt offering?
(Now I secretly wish Moore is close friends with Gordan Ramsay and ghost writes cook books)
TexiKen on
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
the biggest sticking point in moore's history with dc is how they managed to take an opportunity to get back in his good books with the regime change and instead basically went pfff naw, clearly being a dick to this guy is how to best deal with him.
It's not really news, but Comic Twart, the art blog helmed by the likes of Andy Kuhn, Tom Fowler, Francesco Francavilla, and other great artists, is doing a Man-Thing theme week.
So awesome.
Their Lone Wolf and Cub series was really awesome too.
It's not really news, but Comic Twart, the art blog helmed by the likes of Andy Kuhn, Tom Fowler, Francesco Francavilla, and other great artists, is doing a Man-Thing theme week.
So awesome.
Their Lone Wolf and Cub series was really awesome too.
yes yes yes this is beautiful
Antimatter on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Short of wearing a swastika, I can't think of a quicker way to alienate the general population with a single article of clothing.
Also, my mind can't grasp the concept of all those characters being on a single team. It's like the Champions, which is to say it's an unfathomable collection of individuals that TLB is sure to applaud.
Robos that's because, like Young Allies, this isn't exactly a "team book"
"It's not a team, at least not in the traditional sense," explains Lanning of the sprawling cast. "[There is] a structure that allows mission-specific teams to be 'hired' depending on the type of problem that's got to be solved. So there will be some really fun and often unexpected guest star combos, depending on what the threat is. Characters often get 'hired' without realizing how or why they're being used."
"However, we don't want the book to feel like a disjointed team-up title," chimes in Abnett. "There is also a very strong, intriguing ongoing story driving the series along underneath the missions in each issue.
Robos that's because, like Young Allies, this isn't exactly a "team book"
"It's not a team, at least not in the traditional sense," explains Lanning of the sprawling cast. "[There is] a structure that allows mission-specific teams to be 'hired' depending on the type of problem that's got to be solved. So there will be some really fun and often unexpected guest star combos, depending on what the threat is. Characters often get 'hired' without realizing how or why they're being used."
"However, we don't want the book to feel like a disjointed team-up title," chimes in Abnett. "There is also a very strong, intriguing ongoing story driving the series along underneath the missions in each issue.
Even if we're looking at a rotating cast, it's still unusual for characters this varied to associate with each other at all.
I'm accustomed to thinking of Iron Fist, Punisher, and Ghost Rider occupying entirely different universes, even if they all technically fit within the same large world.
Robos that's because, like Young Allies, this isn't exactly a "team book"
"It's not a team, at least not in the traditional sense," explains Lanning of the sprawling cast. "[There is] a structure that allows mission-specific teams to be 'hired' depending on the type of problem that's got to be solved. So there will be some really fun and often unexpected guest star combos, depending on what the threat is. Characters often get 'hired' without realizing how or why they're being used."
"However, we don't want the book to feel like a disjointed team-up title," chimes in Abnett. "There is also a very strong, intriguing ongoing story driving the series along underneath the missions in each issue.
Even if we're looking at a rotating cast, it's still unusual for characters this varied to associate with each other at all.
I'm accustomed to thinking of Iron Fist, Punisher, and Ghost Rider occupying entirely different universes, even if they all technically fit within the same large world.
But what is going on in Shadowland has brought them all together.
Posts
So what do you guys think? Is he crazy nuts or crazy reasonable?
I've gotten to the point where I tune him out, unless something new comes up. The whole thing about Dave Gibbons calling him to thank him is kind of odd, since I would consider Gibbons to be another key factor to the story (kind of like how Alex Ross gets more credit for Kingdom Come than Waid does, it should be 50/50).
But what it ultimately comes down to in my mind is that Alan Moore was on the Simpsons in a terrible episode during the current terrible reign of seasons, when the shows was going through the motions and being nothing but a cash cow staple, the same way he lambastes the comics industry and how everyone is gunning for all this Watchmen stuff. Maybe he's mastered magic so that throwing stones in his glass castle teleports them safely into the garden?
His shots at current creators is kinda unfair, but at least I can see his point about how bankrupt DC and Marvel are of ideas when they're still trying to exploit shit he did 25 years ago.
Look, I'm sorry, but hinging a friendship on a single "thank you" is the dickest move.
That being said, I'm not an artist, I've never created a work that is in an even remotely comparable place as Watchmen, and I've never had to deal with the shit Moore's dealing with. Dude's certainly entitled to his opinions and interpretations (even though I find the super-villainy he attributes to DC execs to be kind of cartoonishly laughable).
To be fair to them, it sometimes seems that that is all the buying market actually wants to see.
With Gibbons, I think Moore has a more valid point. If I had someone calling me up every day, trying to convince me to do some shit I didn't want to do, or constantly making reference to a sore spot in my life, I'd want to stop talking to them too. Unfortunately, Watchmen's rights seem to be in something of a tangle, where they might actually require Moore's sign-off to do spin-off properties. And with DC now being DC Entertainment, you know they're looking to exploit that property however they can.
And while I don't think DC's really so conspiratorial as to deny work to Steven Moore just to punish Alan, I can definitely see how he'd feel that way. Seriously, let's look at the laundry list of shit he's put up with, in no particular order:
-Made Watchmen; lost the rights in a legal snafu; Watchmen movie is made, and hounded by legal problems
-Made V for Vendetta; lost the rights in a legal snafu; V movie is made; a studio executive falsely attributes quotes to Alan, in order to promote the movie
-Revitalized the Miracleman property, which has been hounded by legal troubles
-Made LoEG; allowed the movie to be made, and was subsequently dragged into court, in what he felt was one of the worst moments of his recent life
-Finally said fuck it, and went to work for Jim Lee at Wildstorm, creating the ABC Universe along with his collaborators; DC buys Wildstorm, and all of Moore's new characters with it; DC forces a change in a League of Extraordinary Gentlemen book, finally prompting Moore to proclaim, "Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're cool, and fuck you, I'm out!"
Really, if no one's ever read Portrait of an Extraordinary Gentleman, you should. It's just a book-long interview with Moore, and really endeared the dude to me. Sure he's a cranky old man, and he paints the comic industry with a wide brush, but from his viewpoint, it's pretty understandable. When he's not talking about shit that pisses him off, he comes off as really funny and self deprecating. Plus, without that book, I'd have never known Moore began his comics career doing what was essentially a Garfield rip-off for a local paper. Which amuses me to no end.
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Which explains all the naps.
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The comics industry is small and insular, and if nothing else it should be apparent that personal relationships matter. They can and will make or break deals. But the executives don't know or don't care, they see the bottom line and think that money solves all problems. As long as they think that and ignore the human relationship element AND continue to act like past grievances don't need to be rectified, Moore and others will be the end result.
All that being said, Moore's definitely gone through the dirtiest, muckiest parts of the comic books industry, and had to deal with some indefensible moves and practices. I'm not surprised that he has a dim view of the whole thing, and can't blame him for wanting to be rid of it. (Of course, that's not really an excuse for dissing creators currently working in the industry.)
Hell, Moore got pissed off at Quesada simply for not including a sentence or two of copy in the legalese stuff in the reprints of Moore and Davis' Captain Britain TPB's a few years back.
And on the Quesada thing, I seem to recall that was when Joe took over, and was trying to mend fences with some creators, going so far as to promise Moore that he'd be properly credited on the Captain Britain thing, and then failing to follow through. Since then it's been corrected.
As for Moore's work since leaving mainstream comics, I've not read much of it. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Century V. 1 was good, but man, I really wish Moore wouldn't put so much rape in his work. It's like, the one major sticking point I always come to when reading his stuff. It doesn't grate nearly as much as it would in a mainstream superhero comic, but the dude returns to that well so often, it's become bothersome.
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I don't know, it just seems like Moore doesn't know when a mistake is just that, and not some grand conspiracy. If his family cooked him breakfast and burned the toast, that doesn't mean they did it on purpose.
(Now I secretly wish Moore is close friends with Gordan Ramsay and ghost writes cook books)
So awesome.
Their Lone Wolf and Cub series was really awesome too.
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yes yes yes this is beautiful
MODOC (Mental Organism Designed Only for Cuteness)
There's some other good ones, like Meowty Thor. Makes cats almost as cool as dogs are. Almost
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Short of wearing a swastika, I can't think of a quicker way to alienate the general population with a single article of clothing.
Also, my mind can't grasp the concept of all those characters being on a single team. It's like the Champions, which is to say it's an unfathomable collection of individuals that TLB is sure to applaud.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Happy Face!
..........does this mean DnA aren't doing cosmic stuff?
the world is defiled in disgrace
It's perfect, put Songbird on the team and they would be the Judas Priest of the Marvel Universe.
Still waiting for the day he just Iron Fist's a hole in someone's chest.
Even if we're looking at a rotating cast, it's still unusual for characters this varied to associate with each other at all.
I'm accustomed to thinking of Iron Fist, Punisher, and Ghost Rider occupying entirely different universes, even if they all technically fit within the same large world.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Oh my fucking God yes yes yesssssss.
But what is going on in Shadowland has brought them all together.