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[Gay Rights]: Prop 8 has been overturned. Link to the ruling in OP.

Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User regular
edited August 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
Gay+EU+flag.jpg

The Good

Iceland legalizes Same-sex marriage and their Prime Minister marries her girlfriend.

Britain grants refuge to gays who face execution/imprisonment in their home nations.

Ireland brings in Civil Unions.

The Bad

ECHR says that states aren't obligated to facilitate same sex unions.


New%20Glory.jpg

The Good.

DOMA ruled unconstitutional by a Federal court in Boston.

The Bad

Gov. Linda Lingle has said she'll veto Hawaii's civil union bill.


Wisconsin's Supreme Court unanimously rules to uphold the state's gay marriage ban.



The Ugly
maggie_comic-thumb-500x529-519.jpg



UPDATE

Prop 8 Ruling is here. It's 138 pages long but the last paragraph is really all you need to read.

Saint Madness on
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Posts

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    Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    The Prop 8 verdict is to be delivered "soon", the closing arguments were on 16th June.

    Saint Madness on
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    mythagomythago Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Perhaps the best part of the ruling on DOMA is listening to conservatives sputter about it. The gays are relying on states' rights? HOW DARE U?!?!?!?!?

    mythago on
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    Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    You forgot that they came up with an out for that years ago: Denouncing Activist Judges. It's really easy.

    Also, we're giving gays rights now? Who's next? Brown People? Womens? Mexicans????

    Xenogears of Bore on
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    Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Also Australia's new atheist centre-left PM is against same-sex marriage.

    The mind boggles.

    Saint Madness on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    What? You gays still want equal rights?


    I MEAN GEE WHIZ YOU GUUUUUYS!

    Also Australia's new atheist centre-left PM is against same-sex marriage.

    The mind boggles.
    surprise.jpg

    The only argument against 'gay marriage' that I will accept is that the whole concept of 'marriage' as a state endorsed / protected act should be axed. Either everyone should be able to marry and receive the associated benefits or nobody should be able to.

    I think this argument tends to be made by spiteful assholes who just wan't to deny homosexuals their dignity at any cost, though, so I only accept it grudgingly.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I've never heard a sane argument for why gays shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else. It all boils down to bigotry. Bigotry dressed up as religion, but bigotry none the less.

    The fact something like this is left up to the voting population, the same one that was for segregation, voting laws, etc. is a crime itself. You don't deny people basic rights.

    Invisible on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    The fact something like this is left up to the voting population, the same one that was for segregation, voting laws, etc. is a crime itself. You don't deny people basic rights.

    I have the same opinion (and a similar opinion when it comes to a few other matters, like environmental protection)... but, honestly, I don't know what kind of alternative there is. I mean, who gets to say, "Okay - gay marriage is just legal now. Deal with it, bigoted public." ?

    Without granting some arm of the government a degree of arbitrary power I wouldn't be comfortable granting them (where they are free to simply override the voice of the majority via fiat), I don't see how this could work. I mean, I agree that the majority voice can be & is toxic a lot of the time, but I don't know how to go about shutting up the bad without terribly injuring the whole concept of democracy.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Also Australia's new atheist centre-left PM is against same-sex marriage.

    The mind boggles.

    On a few conservative radio shows, gay callers say they're actually against same-sex marriage. They don't give reasons why but they firmly declare not all gays want same-sex marriage and then hang up. Lara Ingraham has at least two gay friends who do not support gay marriage, which she brags about constantly over the air.

    emnmnme on
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    EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    The Ender wrote: »
    The fact something like this is left up to the voting population, the same one that was for segregation, voting laws, etc. is a crime itself. You don't deny people basic rights.

    I have the same opinion (and a similar opinion when it comes to a few other matters, like environmental protection)... but, honestly, I don't know what kind of alternative there is. I mean, who gets to say, "Okay - gay marriage is just legal now. Deal with it, bigoted public." ?

    Judges. It's worked so far!

    EmperorSeth on
    You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Also Australia's new atheist centre-left PM is against same-sex marriage.

    The mind boggles.

    On a few conservative radio shows, gay callers say they're actually against same-sex marriage. They don't give reasons why but they firmly declare not all gays want same-sex marriage and then hang up. Lara Ingraham has at least two gay friends who do not support gay marriage, which she brags about constantly over the air.

    ...in related news, some chickens have been seen voting for a Col. H. Sanders in the recent poll.

    AngelHedgie on
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    Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    We had our own brand of nutjobs protesting outside the Dáil while the civil partnership was being debated.

    Not quite as fire and brimstone as their US counterparts though.

    Saint Madness on
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    KrubicksCubeKrubicksCube Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I've yet to see a convincing argument against gay marriage rights. Any person should be able to be with whoever they want with all of the legal and state benefits that come with that. Ridiculous that this is still a big issue in 2010...oh well, small steps I suppose =/

    KrubicksCube on
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    LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Invisible wrote: »
    I've never heard a sane argument for why gays shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else. It all boils down to bigotry. Bigotry dressed up as religion, but bigotry none the less.

    The fact something like this is left up to the voting population, the same one that was for segregation, voting laws, etc. is a crime itself. You don't deny people basic rights.

    Because to the people opposed to gay marriage it's not about rights, it's about changing the definition of the word "marriage", which is kind of a longstanding tradition people don't want to fuck with.

    Look at it this way: a gay man has the exact same right to marry a straight man has, the right to marry any woman he wants.

    So there's no bigotry, just not wanting their ancient cultural institution altered. Personally I'd rather we just remove the state from marriage entirely because this argument is just going to be repeated over and over. Polygamists are already lining up to take their turn at bat and after that who knows, group marriage, bestiality marriage, maybe AI marriage one day? We'll just have the same argument each time as we go from "Marriage is defined as Man + Woman" to "Two People" to "Multiple People" to "Person + whatever" and so on.

    Lanlaorn on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Invisible wrote: »
    I've never heard a sane argument for why gays shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else. It all boils down to bigotry. Bigotry dressed up as religion, but bigotry none the less.

    The fact something like this is left up to the voting population, the same one that was for segregation, voting laws, etc. is a crime itself. You don't deny people basic rights.

    Because to the people opposed to gay marriage it's not about rights, it's about changing the definition of the word "marriage", which is kind of a longstanding tradition people don't want to fuck with.

    Look at it this way: a gay man has the exact same right to marry a straight man has, the right to marry any woman he wants.

    So there's no bigotry, just not wanting their ancient cultural institution altered. Personally I'd rather we just remove the state from marriage entirely because this argument is just going to be repeated over and over. Polygamists are already lining up to take their turn at bat and after that who knows, group marriage, bestiality marriage, maybe AI marriage one day? We'll just have the same argument each time as we go from "Marriage is defined as Man + Woman" to "Two People" to "Multiple People" to "Person + whatever" and so on.

    It would be really fucking nice if people would stop using the Anatole France defense of their bigotry.

    And as we've pointed out in other fucking threads, there are arguments beyond the religious one that can be applied against polygamy, beastiality, etc. The same cannot be said of same sex marriages.

    AngelHedgie on
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    CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Invisible wrote: »
    I've never heard a sane argument for why gays shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else. It all boils down to bigotry. Bigotry dressed up as religion, but bigotry none the less.

    The fact something like this is left up to the voting population, the same one that was for segregation, voting laws, etc. is a crime itself. You don't deny people basic rights.

    Because to the people opposed to gay marriage it's not about rights, it's about changing the definition of the word "marriage", which is kind of a longstanding tradition people don't want to fuck with.

    Look at it this way: a gay man has the exact same right to marry a straight man has, the right to marry any woman he wants.

    So there's no bigotry, just not wanting their ancient cultural institution altered. Personally I'd rather we just remove the state from marriage entirely because this argument is just going to be repeated over and over. Polygamists are already lining up to take their turn at bat and after that who knows, group marriage, bestiality marriage, maybe AI marriage one day? We'll just have the same argument each time as we go from "Marriage is defined as Man + Woman" to "Two People" to "Multiple People" to "Person + whatever" and so on.

    It would be really fucking nice if people would stop using the Anatole France defense of their bigotry.

    And as we've pointed out in other fucking threads, there are arguments beyond the religious one that can be applied against polygamy, beastiality, etc. The same cannot be said of same sex marriages.

    I'm assuming you mean
    The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

    but I think this is more apropos:
    If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.

    Cervetus on
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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Look at it this way: a gay man has the exact same right to marry a straight man has, the right to marry any woman he wants.

    Yes, and before Loving white and black people had the exact same rights: the right to marry a member of their own race. Before Brown white and black people had the exact same rights: the right to go to a school of their own color. Etc. etc.

    In other words: o_O

    MrMister on
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    At this point I'm not sure the opposition is religious so much as cultural momentum. There are plenty of people who just plain do not think about these issues at all, but sort of "feel" they're opposed to it or that it's wrong.

    At least until confronted by it.

    electricitylikesme on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Invisible wrote: »
    I've never heard a sane argument for why gays shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else. It all boils down to bigotry. Bigotry dressed up as religion, but bigotry none the less.

    The fact something like this is left up to the voting population, the same one that was for segregation, voting laws, etc. is a crime itself. You don't deny people basic rights.

    Because to the people opposed to gay marriage it's not about rights, it's about changing the definition of the word "marriage", which is kind of a longstanding tradition people don't want to fuck with.

    Look at it this way: a gay man has the exact same right to marry a straight man has, the right to marry any woman he wants.

    Just like a black man can marry any black woman he wants.

    It's not that people against miscegenation were bigots, they just didn't want to change their longstanding tradition.

    Quid on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Invisible wrote: »
    I've never heard a sane argument for why gays shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else. It all boils down to bigotry. Bigotry dressed up as religion, but bigotry none the less.

    The fact something like this is left up to the voting population, the same one that was for segregation, voting laws, etc. is a crime itself. You don't deny people basic rights.

    Because to the people opposed to gay marriage it's not about rights, it's about changing the definition of the word "marriage", which is kind of a longstanding tradition people don't want to fuck with.

    Look at it this way: a gay man has the exact same right to marry a straight man has, the right to marry any woman he wants.

    Just like a black man can marry any black woman he wants.

    It's not that people against miscegenation were bigots, they just didn't want to change their longstanding tradition.


    It's not that the Confederacy supported slavery, they just opposed redefining the word "person" to include black people.

    If we can't protect our cherished definitions, then what have we been fighting for?

    Regina Fong on
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    It's not that the Confederacy supported slavery, they just opposed redefining the word "person" to include black people.

    If we can't protect our cherished definitions, then what have we been fighting for?

    :^:

    emnmnme on
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Also Australia's new atheist centre-left PM is against same-sex marriage.

    The mind boggles.

    On a few conservative radio shows, gay callers say they're actually against same-sex marriage. They don't give reasons why but they firmly declare not all gays want same-sex marriage and then hang up. Lara Ingraham has at least two gay friends who do not support gay marriage, which she brags about constantly over the air.

    ...in related news, some chickens have been seen voting for a Col. H. Sanders in the recent poll.

    Is it any surprise that some people like an excuse to avoid commitment? I'm sure that's why South Carolinian governors oppose polygamy.

    In other news, conservatives do support rights for gay people. There's the right to remain silent, the right to an attorney...

    Scalfin on
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    In other news, conservatives do support rights for gay people. There's the right to remain silent, the right to an attorney...

    I thought anti-sodomy laws were abolished. :P

    If you weren't making that pun and were being serious, you're saying a system where many Americans get a full set of rights while a minority of law-abiding citizens get partial rights is a plus for conservatives? That doesn't sound like a plus at all. Full rights for all law-abiding citizens.

    emnmnme on
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    Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    But they don't want homosexuality to be legal.

    Captain Carrot on
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    TalkcTalkc Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I have an aunt who is a neo conservative.

    I cant even speak to her anymore. In my head i hear her talking about homosexuals being of the devil etc...

    Luckily she is 82 and not long for this world.

    The sad part is i have people younger than me in my family who are just as staunchly against gay rights. And im only 23.

    I wish i could say it was just a bunch of old people who are bigoted, and that they will all die off, solving the problem with it... But there are also a lot of this younger generation who are just as .... despicable.

    Talkc on
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    Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    But a much smaller proportion.

    Captain Carrot on
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Yeah, there are always going to be hateful bigots, as long as hateful bigots can teach their kids. Barring some... unfortunate accident, the Phelps family is going to keep it up for a while.

    Luckily all we need to do is make sure they're few enough to be impotent, like neo-nazis or something.

    KalTorak on
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    CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    So uh, yeah, we've had legal gay marriage in Canada for years now, and somehow civilization has not crumbled. We've even had gay divorce.

    Corvus on
    :so_raven:
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    mofojacksonmofojackson Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Corvus wrote: »
    So uh, yeah, we've had legal gay marriage in Canada for years now, and somehow civilization has not crumbled. We've even had gay divorce.

    You also have socialized medicine. Coincidence? I think not.

    These forward-thinking Canadians will be the death of bigotry--I mean our sacred religious definitions!

    mofojackson on
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Corvus wrote: »
    So uh, yeah, we've had legal gay marriage in Canada for years now, and somehow civilization has not crumbled. We've even had gay divorce.

    Aren't we splitting hairs here?

    hurr hurr Canada

    KalTorak on
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    BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Corvus wrote: »
    So uh, yeah, we've had legal gay marriage in Canada for years now, and somehow civilization has not crumbled. We've even had gay divorce.
    Civilization hasn't crumbled? You have milk in bags, man!

    Blackjack on
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    LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Philosopher King The AcademyRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Corvus wrote: »
    So uh, yeah, we've had legal gay marriage in Canada for years now, and somehow civilization has not crumbled. We've even had gay divorce.

    yeah but you'd have to be Canadian...

    In any event, I really hope that the prop 8 thing comes through. If the courts can come down on the side of a basic fucking civil liberties, it might provide the momentum needed for pushing some decent change.

    We can hope.

    LoserForHireX on
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    mythagomythago Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »

    Because to the people opposed to gay marriage it's not about rights, it's about changing the definition of the word "marriage", which is kind of a longstanding tradition people don't want to fuck with.

    People fucked with it plenty when it suited their ends. Our ancestors would have been horrified at no-fault divorce, treating marital rape as a crime, wives and husband having equal treatment under the law, and elderly people who have no chance of having kids marrying.

    But let the queers think about it and silly geese like Lanlaorn are all OMG TRADISHUNZ!!!!

    emnmnme wrote: »
    Also Australia's new atheist centre-left PM is against same-sex marriage.

    The mind boggles.

    On a few conservative radio shows, gay callers say they're actually against same-sex marriage. They don't give reasons why but they firmly declare not all gays want same-sex marriage and then hang up. Lara Ingraham has at least two gay friends who do not support gay marriage, which she brags about constantly over the air.

    ...in related news, some chickens have been seen voting for a Col. H. Sanders in the recent poll.

    Yes, I'm sure that all those people claiming to be anti-same-sex-marriage gays really ARE gays. Certainly no anti-gay bigot would call their favorite conservative radio show and pretend to be gay to give their hating extra credit. And I'm absolutely sure that Laura Ingraham really has two gay guys who totally love her and agree that they suck and deserve no rights whatsoever.

    mythago on
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    NuzakNuzak Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    mythago wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »

    Because to the people opposed to gay marriage it's not about rights, it's about changing the definition of the word "marriage", which is kind of a longstanding tradition people don't want to fuck with.

    People fucked with it plenty when it suited their ends. Our ancestors would have been horrified at no-fault divorce, treating marital rape as a crime, wives and husband having equal treatment under the law, and elderly people who have no chance of having kids marrying.

    But let the queers think about it and silly geese like Lanlaorn are all OMG TRADISHUNZ!!!!

    did somebody say...

    TRADITION
    topol21.jpg

    Nuzak on
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    deowolfdeowolf is allowed to do that. Traffic.Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Nuzak wrote: »
    mythago wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »

    Because to the people opposed to gay marriage it's not about rights, it's about changing the definition of the word "marriage", which is kind of a longstanding tradition people don't want to fuck with.

    People fucked with it plenty when it suited their ends. Our ancestors would have been horrified at no-fault divorce, treating marital rape as a crime, wives and husband having equal treatment under the law, and elderly people who have no chance of having kids marrying.

    But let the queers think about it and silly geese like Lanlaorn are all OMG TRADISHUNZ!!!!

    did somebody say...

    TRADITION

    Had to do a musical theater gag in the gay rights thread, huh?

    deowolf on
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    MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    deowolf wrote: »
    Nuzak wrote: »
    mythago wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »

    Because to the people opposed to gay marriage it's not about rights, it's about changing the definition of the word "marriage", which is kind of a longstanding tradition people don't want to fuck with.

    People fucked with it plenty when it suited their ends. Our ancestors would have been horrified at no-fault divorce, treating marital rape as a crime, wives and husband having equal treatment under the law, and elderly people who have no chance of having kids marrying.

    But let the queers think about it and silly geese like Lanlaorn are all OMG TRADISHUNZ!!!!

    did somebody say...

    TRADITION

    Had to do a musical theater gag in the gay rights thread, huh?

    What kind of gag would you prefer? :winky:

    MKR on
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    DisruptedCapitalistDisruptedCapitalist I swear! Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Can someone please explain to me the legal strategy of appealing Gay Rights cases to the Supreme Court? Can there be any outcome other than 5-4 against Gay Rights???

    DisruptedCapitalist on
    "Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
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    TenekTenek Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Can someone please explain to me the legal strategy of appealing Gay Rights cases to the Supreme Court? Can there be any outcome other than 5-4 against Gay Rights???

    5-4 for gay rights? Fine, it's a long shot, but the worst case is "wait for Scalia to die and try again".

    Tenek on
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    MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Can someone please explain to me the legal strategy of appealing Gay Rights cases to the Supreme Court? Can there be any outcome other than 5-4 against Gay Rights???

    As far as I can tell, the strategy is 'we have to'. Once something is in federal court, either side can appeal it, and then it can go from appeals to the Supreme Court if the SCOTUS wants to hear the case.

    Which means the Justice Dept. will most likely appeal the DOMA case.
    Tenek wrote: »
    5-4 for gay rights? Fine, it's a long shot, but the worst case is "wait for Scalia to die and try again".

    Somehow I feel like it would be worse than that. Wouldn't that set legal precedent that would make it harder to get something to the Supreme Court again?

    MuddBudd on
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Kennedy isn't in the bag against gay rights.

    KalTorak on
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    TenekTenek Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    Somehow I feel like it would be worse than that. Wouldn't that set legal precedent that would make it harder to get something to the Supreme Court again?

    In theory, yes. In practice, I doubt it. Cases get overturned. *shrug*

    Tenek on
This discussion has been closed.