If you look at the game as a sequel to DX, it's not really very good. If you look at it on its own merits it's a fairly decent game. But as a sequel? Nope...
This is untrue. Not only is IW a bad Deus Ex game, it's also a shitty game all on its own as well. It is filled with dumb design decisions (unified ammunition for all guns for example), AI that is in places worse than the original and the environments are cramped and tiny (unlike the expansive levels in the original). There is, to my knowledge, still the bug (or feature?) that allows you to kill anyone by pushing a flaming barrel near them (they spontaneously combust shortly after). You can also relentlessly screw over every faction and they will give you the equivalent of a slap on the wrist - then promptly beg for your help again.
When you then consider it as a sequel to Deus Ex it's just even worse still.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
A game as buggy, broken, poorly designed and paced as IW is not "solid" by any stretch of the imagination. Thankfully they fixed the thing where you could shoot someone in the head and they would react by chastising you.
Invisible War is really nice if you like loading screens. They really managed to cram a lot more of those in compared to Deus Ex. The first game really only stuck them in to level transitions, like when you went to a new area, but Invisible War brought its A game and gives you a loading screen at almost every opportunity.
Invisible War is really nice if you like loading screens. They really managed to cram a lot more of those in compared to Deus Ex. The first game really only stuck them in to level transitions, like when you went to a new area, but Invisible War brought its A game and gives you a loading screen at almost every opportunity.
Yeah, but why would you play Invisible War when the PS2 version of Deus Ex did it better?
Invisible War is really nice if you like loading screens. They really managed to cram a lot more of those in compared to Deus Ex. The first game really only stuck them in to level transitions, like when you went to a new area, but Invisible War brought its A game and gives you a loading screen at almost every opportunity.
Yeah, but why would you play Invisible War when the PS2 version of Deus Ex did it better?
God that was awful. Walking around hell's kitchn took about 10 minutes because of all the transitions.
On the rudeness scale of 1-10, shooting someone in the head is like an 8.
It was awesome when one of the developers defended that design decision originally as well. I couldn't get over the fact you could shoot someone up to twice in the head and they wouldn't react. Of course that was before I realized most weapons don't do location based damage in IW (only a couple do).
On the rudeness scale of 1-10, shooting someone in the head is like an 8.
It was awesome when one of the developers defended that design decision originally as well. I couldn't get over the fact you could shoot someone up to twice in the head and they wouldn't react. Of course that was before I realized most weapons don't do location based damage in IW (only a couple do).
Deus Ex wasn't exactly perfect in this regard either.
Zombiemambo on
0
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
On the rudeness scale of 1-10, shooting someone in the head is like an 8.
It was awesome when one of the developers defended that design decision originally as well. I couldn't get over the fact you could shoot someone up to twice in the head and they wouldn't react. Of course that was before I realized most weapons don't do location based damage in IW (only a couple do).
Deus Ex wasn't exactly perfect in this regard either.
That is true, but at the very least shooting someone in the head provoked a violent reaction. Also, a sequel not improving and actually making flaws of the original worse is a major indictment.
On the rudeness scale of 1-10, shooting someone in the head is like an 8.
It was awesome when one of the developers defended that design decision originally as well. I couldn't get over the fact you could shoot someone up to twice in the head and they wouldn't react. Of course that was before I realized most weapons don't do location based damage in IW (only a couple do).
Deus Ex wasn't exactly perfect in this regard either.
That is true, but at the very least shooting someone in the head provoked a violent reaction. Also, a sequel not improving and actually making flaws of the original worse is a major indictment.
You can shoot Paul as much as you like, he won't care. He's pretty chill about the whole thing.
On the rudeness scale of 1-10, shooting someone in the head is like an 8.
It was awesome when one of the developers defended that design decision originally as well. I couldn't get over the fact you could shoot someone up to twice in the head and they wouldn't react. Of course that was before I realized most weapons don't do location based damage in IW (only a couple do).
Deus Ex wasn't exactly perfect in this regard either.
That is true, but at the very least shooting someone in the head provoked a violent reaction. Also, a sequel not improving and actually making flaws of the original worse is a major indictment.
You can shoot Paul as much as you like, he won't care. He's pretty chill about the whole thing.
You obviously haven't been shooting him enough.
He'll get pissed eventually and chase you around with an assault rifle.
On the rudeness scale of 1-10, shooting someone in the head is like an 8.
It was awesome when one of the developers defended that design decision originally as well. I couldn't get over the fact you could shoot someone up to twice in the head and they wouldn't react. Of course that was before I realized most weapons don't do location based damage in IW (only a couple do).
Deus Ex wasn't exactly perfect in this regard either.
That is true, but at the very least shooting someone in the head provoked a violent reaction. Also, a sequel not improving and actually making flaws of the original worse is a major indictment.
You can shoot Paul as much as you like, he won't care. He's pretty chill about the whole thing.
You obviously haven't been shooting him enough.
He'll get pissed eventually and chase you around with an assault rifle.
games.on.net: The first game was - in terms of difficulty - quite challenging. Have you guys maintained this approach, or are you adopting the mantra of every game these days, which is for accessible, casual gameplay?
Sebastien Bich: There is definitely a challenge in the game. We are being very cautious and doing playtests with gamers every week, making sure that the learning curve is the right one and not discouraging people from the beginning. I think the challenge will come from how you want to play the game as well, because there’s always another way of playing it if you come to a hurdle. If we can come back to the police station as well, sometimes you might have too many policemen which makes combat too hard, so you can try the stealth way. There’s no correct way to do it as you saw in the demo, and sometimes the game does turn to stealth and sometimes to combat.
games.on.net: And can you tailor the difficulty, or is it one size fits all?
Sebastien Bich: It’s one difficulty to rule them all.
games.on.net: Does it dynamically scale?
Sebastien Bich: It scales based on how much experience points you have, and how you level up within the game.
They said that you just press the takedown button for the non-lethal, and hold it for the lethal.
That's gonna result in so many unintended lethal/nonlethal takedowns.
I thought I was tickling her, TICKLING HER!
[Insert anguished weeping, sunglasses where appropriate.]
Level scaling makes me raise an eyebrow - the first game didn't need it; it simply put you in situations which were more difficult by their very makeup, rather than an arbitrary increase in enemy health/armour etc.
I hope this doesn't become DE:HR's version of the Oblivion Problem (noun), whereupon you burst into one of the last civilian areas of the game, resplendant in your end-game cryostatis-skin-gel-layer and liquid crystal plasma repeater armpit upgrades, only to be cruelly felled by a guffawing Percy the Janitor and his nefarious mop.
ZarathustraEckUbermenschnow with stripes!Registered Userregular
edited October 2010
As long as it's handled reasonably, I don't see a problem. Civilians and low-level thugs just plain shouldn't scale. Now, if the scaling is handled in a way that makes sense in the game, I'm all for it.
Do MIssion A first, and you have a lone guard at a back door to a target. Do Mission A after completing 10 others, and they're on high alert and have stationed more guards, or maybe have placed cameras to monitor the area.
Indeed, but that doesn't mean we have to like or approve of it.
I thought part of the fun of RPG's is the ability to develop yourself to a point where your abilities far exceed that of your ground level opponents; particularly in the case of Deus Ex, where you go from having a wobble-o-matic pistol and a few woefully inadequate gas cartridges to a fully silenced assault rifle with pinpoint accuracy, silent footsteps and the ability to regenerate health on a whim: the challenge then scales in the circumstances, tactics and sheer weight of numbers your opponents throw at you.
Fighting that minion of Bob Page's in the Nuclear Silo springs to mind - (for some odd reason I keep mis-remembering his name as "Howard Dean") - he's not particularly challenging 1 vs. 1, but he's rigged the game in his favour.... or so he thinks.
I think the only boss designed to be "tough" was Walton Simons, and even he isn't unnaturally tough outside the realm of traditional boss fights. Also: rockets, lol.
Katsuhiro 1139 on
0
Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
Scaling isn't bad, as long as it scales smartly
If it just adds more policeman to the police station, or increases the damage of their weapons, that's something
If it increases their health to the point where I have to shoot them in their unarmored head more than twice to kill them, then we might have problems
If it just adds more policeman to the police station...
This, in a massive way. There's nothing worse than arbitrarily "toughened enemies" - those same guards you were dispatching with ease in Level 1? Ha! Observe as they chew rockets, wash it down with liquid napalm, and then belch, before asking for seconds.
So long as scaling toughness isn't ridiculous and has an in-game justification - i.e. armoured opponents versus cloth uniforms - I'm all for it. That said, head shots and other traditional weakpoints should still count. Same limitations should go for enemy weapons - rationalised by armour piercing rounds, and so forth.
Katsuhiro 1139 on
0
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited October 2010
Difficulty scaling could be done in a pretty awesome way. Considering that you're going to be fighting in a world with loads of surveillance opportunities, it would make a lot of sense that your enemies will watch how you fight and react appropriately when it comes to deploying forces. So they see that you generally go heavy on the firepower and damage resistance, so they deploy armored-up enemies. They notice you like to sneak around, they go for more surveillance and more numerous, but less well-armed and well-armored, forces.
Just anything but arbitrarily dumping more hitpoints, better aim, and higher damage into enemies. I really, really, really hate that shit and it's really lazy game design as well. If the enemies are doing enhanced damage due to armor-piercing rounds, then I'd damn well better be able to pick up those same rounds and do the same effective damage. If it takes more rounds to kill them than it takes to kill me when I'm all armored up, then why the hell did anyone even bother making me a so-called super-cyborg?
Truer words were never spoken, Ninja; I agree there needs to be a consistency in the gameworld when it comes , however the likelihood of a game developer doing this nowadays is remote.
Deux Ex had individual ammunition for seperate weapons; I wonder if they'll have the time to implement multiple ammo types for a single gun. Here's hoping!
I saw this thread, and thought to myself "Huh, new Deus Ex thread?"
Then I reinstalled Deus Ex.
I really should have kept a running list of people that reinstalled because of this and the last thread. Oh well, kinda late to start now.
Bullio on
0
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited October 2010
Sigh, foolish people. The easy solution is just to never, ever uninstall Deus Ex. With hard drive space so cheap these days, there's really no good reason at all to ever delete it anyway. I've got it on my laptop even though I virtually never play games on it; I like having it there just in case. No telling if I'll have to go on an unexpected trip and suddenly feel the need to wear sunglasses at night.
I saw this thread, and thought to myself "Huh, new Deus Ex thread?"
Then I reinstalled Deus Ex.
I really should have kept a running list of people that reinstalled because of this and the last thread. Oh well, kinda late to start now.
What I want to know is who are these people that don't have it installed already? It's one of the first things on the to-do list with a new box or a format. Even if I don't plan on playing it for a while, it's right there when this comes up again.
Speaking of which, it has been a while...
Edit: And NSP beats me to the punch. But yeah, I've got it on my netbook and desktop. You just never know when someone's going to mention it, and then who looks prepared?
... but I... I do not have it installed. Anywhere. At all.
I have an excuse, however; I do not own a PC - in fact, I haven't owned one in years - premade PC's are too expensive, and I lack the technical know-how to construct my own PC.
My foray into Invisible War was with a console - and yes I would rather drive a large nail through my genitalia than recall it in any great detail; except, perhaps, the huge sense of betrayl. As if Santa Claus had taken a dump beneath the Christmas tree, and pissed in the milk.
Univesal ammo still makes my eye twitch. Hoping Fallout: New Vegas captures some of that Deus Ex spirit!
I...what? I don't know how you'd even connect FO:NV to DX other than that they're RPGs which have guns? Are you sure you don't mean Alpha Protocol? Which totally rocked.
Posts
So I looked it up and
This has made me wonder, should I even get Invisible War? Are they going to butcher the story I learned to love in Deus Ex?
It is definitely worth playing, however don't go in expecting the same amazing quality as Deus Ex.
It's not a bad game, just a bad Deus Ex game.
However if you just want more Deus Ex, download the Nameless Mod.
Yes they are.
If you look at the game as a sequel to DX, it's not really very good. If you look at it on its own merits it's a fairly decent game. But as a sequel? Nope...
This is untrue. Not only is IW a bad Deus Ex game, it's also a shitty game all on its own as well. It is filled with dumb design decisions (unified ammunition for all guns for example), AI that is in places worse than the original and the environments are cramped and tiny (unlike the expansive levels in the original). There is, to my knowledge, still the bug (or feature?) that allows you to kill anyone by pushing a flaming barrel near them (they spontaneously combust shortly after). You can also relentlessly screw over every faction and they will give you the equivalent of a slap on the wrist - then promptly beg for your help again.
When you then consider it as a sequel to Deus Ex it's just even worse still.
It's a solid game, just a bad Deus Ex game.
God that was awful. Walking around hell's kitchn took about 10 minutes because of all the transitions.
It's 2010. Provided you have an up to date computer, that's a non-issue.
It was awesome when one of the developers defended that design decision originally as well. I couldn't get over the fact you could shoot someone up to twice in the head and they wouldn't react. Of course that was before I realized most weapons don't do location based damage in IW (only a couple do).
Deus Ex wasn't exactly perfect in this regard either.
That is true, but at the very least shooting someone in the head provoked a violent reaction. Also, a sequel not improving and actually making flaws of the original worse is a major indictment.
You can shoot Paul as much as you like, he won't care. He's pretty chill about the whole thing.
Steam // Secret Satan
You obviously haven't been shooting him enough.
He'll get pissed eventually and chase you around with an assault rifle.
With both this and the next BioShock on the horizon, I must say I am frothing. Stupid 2010 needs to end already.
*bang* "Stop shooting yourself."
*bang* "Stop shooting yourself."
*bang* "Stop shooting yourself."
*bang* "Stop shooting yourself."
*bang* "Stop shooting yourself."
*bang* "Stop shooting yourself."
"OK, THAT'S IT."
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
I thought I was tickling her, TICKLING HER!
[Insert anguished weeping, sunglasses where appropriate.]
Level scaling makes me raise an eyebrow - the first game didn't need it; it simply put you in situations which were more difficult by their very makeup, rather than an arbitrary increase in enemy health/armour etc.
I hope this doesn't become DE:HR's version of the Oblivion Problem (noun), whereupon you burst into one of the last civilian areas of the game, resplendant in your end-game cryostatis-skin-gel-layer and liquid crystal plasma repeater armpit upgrades, only to be cruelly felled by a guffawing Percy the Janitor and his nefarious mop.
Do MIssion A first, and you have a lone guard at a back door to a target. Do Mission A after completing 10 others, and they're on high alert and have stationed more guards, or maybe have placed cameras to monitor the area.
-Z
I thought part of the fun of RPG's is the ability to develop yourself to a point where your abilities far exceed that of your ground level opponents; particularly in the case of Deus Ex, where you go from having a wobble-o-matic pistol and a few woefully inadequate gas cartridges to a fully silenced assault rifle with pinpoint accuracy, silent footsteps and the ability to regenerate health on a whim: the challenge then scales in the circumstances, tactics and sheer weight of numbers your opponents throw at you.
Fighting that minion of Bob Page's in the Nuclear Silo springs to mind - (for some odd reason I keep mis-remembering his name as "Howard Dean") - he's not particularly challenging 1 vs. 1, but he's rigged the game in his favour.... or so he thinks.
I think the only boss designed to be "tough" was Walton Simons, and even he isn't unnaturally tough outside the realm of traditional boss fights. Also: rockets, lol.
If it just adds more policeman to the police station, or increases the damage of their weapons, that's something
If it increases their health to the point where I have to shoot them in their unarmored head more than twice to kill them, then we might have problems
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
This, in a massive way. There's nothing worse than arbitrarily "toughened enemies" - those same guards you were dispatching with ease in Level 1? Ha! Observe as they chew rockets, wash it down with liquid napalm, and then belch, before asking for seconds.
So long as scaling toughness isn't ridiculous and has an in-game justification - i.e. armoured opponents versus cloth uniforms - I'm all for it. That said, head shots and other traditional weakpoints should still count. Same limitations should go for enemy weapons - rationalised by armour piercing rounds, and so forth.
Just anything but arbitrarily dumping more hitpoints, better aim, and higher damage into enemies. I really, really, really hate that shit and it's really lazy game design as well. If the enemies are doing enhanced damage due to armor-piercing rounds, then I'd damn well better be able to pick up those same rounds and do the same effective damage. If it takes more rounds to kill them than it takes to kill me when I'm all armored up, then why the hell did anyone even bother making me a so-called super-cyborg?
Deux Ex had individual ammunition for seperate weapons; I wonder if they'll have the time to implement multiple ammo types for a single gun. Here's hoping!
Then I reinstalled Deus Ex.
I really should have kept a running list of people that reinstalled because of this and the last thread. Oh well, kinda late to start now.
What I want to know is who are these people that don't have it installed already? It's one of the first things on the to-do list with a new box or a format. Even if I don't plan on playing it for a while, it's right there when this comes up again.
Speaking of which, it has been a while...
Edit: And NSP beats me to the punch. But yeah, I've got it on my netbook and desktop. You just never know when someone's going to mention it, and then who looks prepared?
... but I... I do not have it installed. Anywhere. At all.
I have an excuse, however; I do not own a PC - in fact, I haven't owned one in years - premade PC's are too expensive, and I lack the technical know-how to construct my own PC.
My foray into Invisible War was with a console - and yes I would rather drive a large nail through my genitalia than recall it in any great detail; except, perhaps, the huge sense of betrayl. As if Santa Claus had taken a dump beneath the Christmas tree, and pissed in the milk.
Univesal ammo still makes my eye twitch. Hoping Fallout: New Vegas captures some of that Deus Ex spirit!