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Getting on California's streets legally in alt. transportation?

yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
edited July 2010 in Help / Advice Forum
Okay, so. Most of you know me. 18 year old dude, minimal cash, currently no driver's license, needs a way to get around in a Southern California town.

Cars are expensive as all fuck, from the initial cost to the insurance to the metric fuckload of gas they eat up. And normally, I don't need to carry more than what fits in my pockets, maybe up to a milk crate's worth of stuff. I travel light. So I don't need the space of a car.

But I need speed, and the weather gets retarded around now. Which means walking is non-viable.

So, can't afford a car, can't easily just walk.

This leads us into the vague realm of "alternative transportation", a land of chaos and utter lack of support from the DMV, as far as I can tell. Let's look at the options that have potential, then.

-First option, ye olde bike. I can fall back on this if I have to, but honestly? I'd just rather have something motorized and built in such a fashion that it won't fall over on its own. Adult tricycles are an option, but don't really fit in the bike lane.

-Next option, various low-powered motorized scooters. These range from basically a Razor style scooter with a little engine bolted on, to basically a scaled down moped. These have a LOT of potential, but I keep finding conflicting things on just where they can go and what licensing you might need to wield one. Plus, most are two-wheeled, running into the same issue as the bike.

-Next option, something with four wheels, like a go-kart, golf-kart, or dune buggy kind of thing. These...Actually have some potential. The issue is I don't know the insurance requirements and street legality of these things, and I'm really trying to skirt under anything more than the absolute minimum amount of insurance humanly possible.

[EDIT] Removed.[/EDIT]

So then. There're my basic options. I'd prefer something with three or four wheels, but if all else fails, to bike land I go.

Requirements in general:

-Gotta be street legal, at least on the same level as a bicycle. I can work around those kinds of limits, but I need to be able to do SOMETHING with it.

-If it's gas, damn good gas milage. Some of the little scooters I've found are getting as much as 100 miles to the gallon, at 20 miles an hour. I'm not looking to beat that, but I'd like to come close. If it's electric, a good 15-20 mile range. I'd rather not get stranded.

-The more wheels it has/less balancing it needs, the better.

-Bonus points are awarded for easy repairability, availability of supplies for doing so, and having enough of a frame that I could shield it from the elements if I had to by just mounting something across the framework. They are also awarded for running on straight gas, as opposed to an oil/gas mix like some of the smaller ones I've found, but only if it doesn't kill their MPG too bad compared to the itty bitty rigs.

-I'd like to avoid it being stolen. So that means either easily bolted down(in much the same sense as a bicycle), or big enough to be difficult to take at all(see cars). In this sense, being unique helps a good bit as well.

-The bike's a fallback option. I don't want to be rude or anything, it's just that if you're going to suggest a bike, I'd like it to be for reasons of legality and skirting under various requirements/limits, not just that it's better for me and inexpensive. I know these things, and that's why it's my main fallback option, not "throw up my hands in defeat and join the car-driving world".

Tl;dr: California's laws are batshit and I can't make sense of 'em. I want to drive around on something with a motor that requires little to no insurance and has more than two wheels. What're my options?

Thanks!

yalborap on

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    pacbowlpacbowl Los AngelesRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    There really are no options. There is nothing with more than 2 wheels you can legally drive without some kind of license for, and good luck getting something home-built DMV certified and insured on the cheap. The only fallback I see would be a motorized bicycle (not moped) or a motorized razr type scooter.

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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I can work with needing licensing, since the various tests and such are a one-off cost(assuming I pass, of course). My big thing is the insurance. I need to slip my way either under it entirely, or into some microscopic rates.

    yalborap on
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    SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Yeah, if you're worried about street legality, I'm not sure that some home built contraption is really one of your top options.

    Spoit on
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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I put it at the bottom for a reason. :P It's certainly not a top option, but given some of the simple plans I've seen, it'd at least be theoretically possible.

    EDIT: You know what, I'm just gonna remove that option. It's gonna likely dominate the whole thing anyways.

    yalborap on
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    strebaliciousstrebalicious Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    What's the issue with balance, some kind of medical issue? As far as scooters go, I think the guideline in most states is anything under 50cc doesn't require a license, but can only be driven on surface streets (I.e. Not four-lane highways or interstates). Why not a regular motorcycle? Should be able to find a cheap used one, insurance is relatively cheap, and if you get a popular enough model then there are going to be plenty of parts for it.

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    KlorgnumKlorgnum Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    If you want speed and legality, you can't beat a bike. Everything you've suggested here is still going to have problems in bad weather (none of them seem to have enclosed cabs, and the thought of driving a golf cart around a town is just absurd). You'll get comparable speeds to most motorized scooters and possibly mopeds, and it's easy to repair and doesn't require gas.

    Or you could just get a bus pass.

    Klorgnum on
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    DekuStickDekuStick Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Maybe a quadricycle would be up your alley? Try and find a one seater to slim it down. You could also strap things you need to carry onto it. Most also have a little canopy giving you some shade from the sun.

    DekuStick on
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    RUNN1NGMANRUNN1NGMAN Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    If you're not cool with a bicycle, just get a tricycle. Screw fitting in the bike lane.

    RUNN1NGMAN on
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    saltinesssaltiness Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Motorcycle or moped. They have kickstands, unless there's some other issue you have with balancing two wheels.

    saltiness on
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    Mmmm... Cocks...Mmmm... Cocks... Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    pacbowl wrote: »
    There really are no options. There is nothing with more than 2 wheels you can legally drive without some kind of license for, and good luck getting something home-built DMV certified and insured on the cheap. The only fallback I see would be a motorized bicycle (not moped) or a motorized razr type scooter.
    Actually (running of Top Gear here so Cali is probably different).
    There was an episode where they build an electric car. The trick they said was to use the chasis of a real car and thus avoiding all the red tape.
    Your car is then classified as a kit car and insured on the cheap as well.

    Mmmm... Cocks... on
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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    What's the issue with balance, some kind of medical issue? As far as scooters go, I think the guideline in most states is anything under 50cc doesn't require a license, but can only be driven on surface streets (I.e. Not four-lane highways or interstates). Why not a regular motorcycle? Should be able to find a cheap used one, insurance is relatively cheap, and if you get a popular enough model then there are going to be plenty of parts for it.

    No specific issue, just preferences...And honestly, I've never really ridden a bike. :?

    yalborap on
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    oldsakoldsak Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    What exactly is your concern about two wheeled vehicles? They're really stable once get going as the wheels act like gyroscopes to give them balance. If you go the bicycle route, make sure to get a decent quality road bike.

    A tricycle is probably going to be harder to maneuver than a bicycle and will definitely take more energy to propel (could be an issue if it's human powered and you have to go long distances).

    Any sort of motorized cart will definitely need to have things done to make it street legal. Here's a tutorial on making a golf cart street legal.

    An option instead of converting a golf cart is a Low Speed Vehicle.

    With either a golf cart or a LSV though, you will probably have to get licensed anyway. Also, a golf cart can easily run you a couple grand, and a LSV will be even more than that.

    Honestly, your best option is probably to go the bike/scooter/motorcycle route. There's a reason they're the most popular alternative to cars.

    edit: with a little practice you will be fine on a bicycle and they're convenient and cheap to maintain. If you're really against using human power, a motorcycle isn't a bad option.

    oldsak on
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    MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    If you don't have a driver's license yet, get one asap. Otherwise, when you eventually do get one, you're going to have to pay for crazy high insurance like a 16 year old.

    Also, at least learn to ride a bicycle before considering scooters and motorcycles.

    MushroomStick on
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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    If you don't have a driver's license yet, get one asap. Otherwise, when you eventually do get one, you're going to have to pay for crazy high insurance like a 16 year old.

    Also, at least learn to ride a bicycle before considering scooters and motorcycles.

    I'll look into it, though with this kind of weather(110+ degrees), the bike might not happen for a while. Are there any guides or anything on the proper way for an adult to learn to ride a bike for the first time?

    yalborap on
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    SixSix Caches Tweets in the mainframe cyberhex Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
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    KendeathwalkerKendeathwalker Registered User regular
    edited May 2015
    .

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    saltinesssaltiness Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    yalborap wrote: »
    What's the issue with balance, some kind of medical issue? As far as scooters go, I think the guideline in most states is anything under 50cc doesn't require a license, but can only be driven on surface streets (I.e. Not four-lane highways or interstates). Why not a regular motorcycle? Should be able to find a cheap used one, insurance is relatively cheap, and if you get a popular enough model then there are going to be plenty of parts for it.

    No specific issue, just preferences...And honestly, I've never really ridden a bike. :?

    Well, you're 18-years-old. It's about time you learn.

    saltiness on
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    Dropping LoadsDropping Loads Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    You should seriously consider taking this class:
    http://www.ca-msp.org/Start.aspx

    It will teach you a lot about motorcycles, cycling safety, and how to handle a 2 wheeled vehicle in traffic. Even if you just ride a bicycle, the things you learn will be valuable. And if you pass the class, it automatically counts as passing your motorcycle license exam (this at least used to be true), and it will typically make you eligible for insurance discounts as well.

    Given the options you're thinking about, this is a great place to start. Oh, and you don't need your own motorcycle, they provide one for the class.

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    AtomBombAtomBomb Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    You should seriously consider taking this class:
    http://www.ca-msp.org/Start.aspx

    It will teach you a lot about motorcycles, cycling safety, and how to handle a 2 wheeled vehicle in traffic. Even if you just ride a bicycle, the things you learn will be valuable. And if you pass the class, it automatically counts as passing your motorcycle license exam (this at least used to be true), and it will typically make you eligible for insurance discounts as well.

    Given the options you're thinking about, this is a great place to start. Oh, and you don't need your own motorcycle, they provide one for the class.

    You generally need to be able to ride a bicycle before you take a motorcycle course. From the website you linked:

    Do I need to have any riding experience? It is not essential to have any riding experience. However, you need to have the ability to balance and stabilize a two-wheeled vehicle. If you have not ridden a bicycle in a long time, it would be a good idea to get some practice before attempting to ride a motorcycle.

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    Dropping LoadsDropping Loads Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Good point AtomBomb. I was thinking the lecture class and practical class were separate, but they aren't (at least not by a lot of time.)

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    zilozilo Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    The only way to do it without getting a license is by bicycle. Other two-wheel transportation and their requirements are found here: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/motorcycles/motorcycles.htm

    Insurance for things like that can be extremely cheap as all you need is liability, and you can't do much damage on a 200lb scooter.

    There is nothing with four wheels that you can take on the road without a license.

    zilo on
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    arsonisfunarsonisfun Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    yalborap wrote: »
    If you don't have a driver's license yet, get one asap. Otherwise, when you eventually do get one, you're going to have to pay for crazy high insurance like a 16 year old.

    Also, at least learn to ride a bicycle before considering scooters and motorcycles.

    I'll look into it, though with this kind of weather(110+ degrees), the bike might not happen for a while. Are there any guides or anything on the proper way for an adult to learn to ride a bike for the first time?

    I taught myself how to ride a bike when I was younger without any real instruction.

    Get on the bike, lean on one foot. Your opposite foot should be on the pedal, the pedal should be near the top of it's rotation so you can push down on it. You pedal forward and move your other foot onto the other pedal and then just keep pedaling. As long as you're moving, you're fine. When you come to a stop, shift your body to one side and use your foot to prop you up again.

    I'm sure there is some sort of guide somewhere if you hit google, but it's really just a matter of getting comfortable with things.

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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I guess I'll be looking into the bike thing more properly in a few weeks, then, when money isn't quite as tight. Maybe as short as sometime next week.

    Which begs a related question: Any thoughts on how to beat the heat, given I'll be exposed and powering the thing myself? Obviously momentum is going to handle some of it through air rushing by me, but is there anything else that might help, short of building some crazy canopy out of PVC pipes and a tarp?

    yalborap on
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    humblehumble Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    hydrate yourself properly

    humble on
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    illigillig Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    anything motorized will either require a license (usually based on engine size/speed etc.) or will get you harassed by cops based on local laws (that's why you don't see people all over the place on those little mini-bikes or chinese scooters... they're outlawed in most places)

    the only choices left are pretty much bicycles and cars...

    for bicycles, you should realize that being on two wheels is one of the benefits, not a disadvantage... a 2 wheel bike can go anywhere, and avoid obstacles that a three/four wheel vehicle can't, and is much more stable at speed... if you're absolutely set on a tricycle, look into a recumbent bike like this one: http://www.terratrike.com/models.php

    for cars... just get your license... in the US, obtaining a license is basically an exercise in filling out forms... no actual knowledge or skill, or ever having been near/in a car is actually required

    get your license and borrow cars when needed until you get your own

    illig on
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    badger2dbadger2d San FranciscoRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    illig wrote: »
    anything motorized will either require a license (usually based on engine size/speed etc.) or will get you harassed by cops based on local laws (that's why you don't see people all over the place on those little mini-bikes or chinese scooters... they're outlawed in most places)

    the only choices left are pretty much bicycles and cars...

    for bicycles, you should realize that being on two wheels is one of the benefits, not a disadvantage... a 2 wheel bike can go anywhere, and avoid obstacles that a three/four wheel vehicle can't, and is much more stable at speed... if you're absolutely set on a tricycle, look into a recumbent bike like this one: http://www.terratrike.com/models.php

    for cars... just get your license... in the US, obtaining a license is basically an exercise in filling out forms... no actual knowledge or skill, or ever having been near/in a car is actually required

    get your license and borrow cars when needed until you get your own

    Except for the parts where you have to a) pass a multiple-choice test of your knowledge of traffic regulations, and b) actually get into a car and do a driving test with an inspector along for the ride to grade you?

    Not that either is set to be terribly difficult, and I agree with the larger point of just get a license it's not that hard, but just "filling out forms" doesn't do it. At least in California, which is where I and the OP are both located. People of perfectly normal intelligence do fail at both the written and the driving tests if they go in thinking like that.

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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I'll get my license at some point, though honestly, in general I'd like to avoid using a car. Otherwise I wouldn't have made this thread at all. :P

    I figure I'll try to learn next week. I'm going on vacation, so I'll be out of town and away from anyone who might recognize me. Basic plan is to get a cheapo Wal-Mart junker that's small enough for me to be able to lower the seat to feet-on-ground levels, then raise it up once I feel more confident. Then I can just ride the thing until it breaks, while saving up for a bike built to actually last. Sound like how I should be going about this, or am I thinking about it all wrong? (Considering that my desires and needs will likely change once I'm actually doing it on a regular basis)

    yalborap on
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    WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Just be ready to be surprised that cheapo junker bikes usually out last the expensive ones )

    Editted cause it was worded all snarky at first unintentionally

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    illigillig Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    badger2d wrote: »
    illig wrote: »
    anything motorized will either require a license (usually based on engine size/speed etc.) or will get you harassed by cops based on local laws (that's why you don't see people all over the place on those little mini-bikes or chinese scooters... they're outlawed in most places)

    the only choices left are pretty much bicycles and cars...

    for bicycles, you should realize that being on two wheels is one of the benefits, not a disadvantage... a 2 wheel bike can go anywhere, and avoid obstacles that a three/four wheel vehicle can't, and is much more stable at speed... if you're absolutely set on a tricycle, look into a recumbent bike like this one: http://www.terratrike.com/models.php

    for cars... just get your license... in the US, obtaining a license is basically an exercise in filling out forms... no actual knowledge or skill, or ever having been near/in a car is actually required

    get your license and borrow cars when needed until you get your own

    Except for the parts where you have to a) pass a multiple-choice test of your knowledge of traffic regulations, and b) actually get into a car and do a driving test with an inspector along for the ride to grade you?

    Not that either is set to be terribly difficult, and I agree with the larger point of just get a license it's not that hard, but just "filling out forms" doesn't do it. At least in California, which is where I and the OP are both located. People of perfectly normal intelligence do fail at both the written and the driving tests if they go in thinking like that.

    i stand by my statement... you can learn all you need to pass the multiple choice test by flipping through the pamphlet they give you while waiting in line to take the test, and the driving test is a joke

    i will further bolster my statement with the following: the test is designed to be passed by people with the IQ of a stick, with 75% blindness, and complete ignorance of the english language

    illig on
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    yalborapyalborap Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Just be ready to be surprised that cheapo junker bikes usually out last the expensive ones )

    Editted cause it was worded all snarky at first unintentionally

    Hey, if a cheap bike lasts me for years and years and years, more power to it. If I don't end up needing an expensive bike, awesome. It'll depend on what my needs turn out to be.

    yalborap on
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    EggyToastEggyToast Jersey CityRegistered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Don't you need a car in order to pass the test? It doesn't have to be your car, but you need one to do the driving test. Unless they have loaners in CA?

    Anyway, one thing to keep in mind with any sort of transportation is that you shouldn't be blind to what the total cost is of any transportation. You've got it in your mind that a car is expensive, and while in general that's true, if you're looking to spend $150 on a crappy bike so you can spend $1000 on a scooter, you could also just buy a car for that amount of money. It would be a junky car but still a car. Not to mention that on a scooter or motorcycle you should have appropriate clothing and headgear which will make the 110F heat that much worse.

    I'm pretty sure that anything motorized that you would be able to take on the streets legally will require insurance and registration, just like a car. Motorcycle insurance is often more than car insurance (because of the CYA portion). In many cities things like dirt bikes, go carts, and other vehicles sans speedometer and plates are not street legal. Bicycles, including those w/ an electric motor, are a unique exception, as they are allowed on all non-expressway streets.

    I'm not saying "buy a car" but rather that these other options can be just as expensive when you're really poor. In Baltimore, the poor people drive really shitty cars, not scooters or motorcycles. The *really* poor kids drive dirt bikes illegally.

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    MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    yalborap wrote: »
    I'll get my license at some point, though honestly, in general I'd like to avoid using a car. Otherwise I wouldn't have made this thread at all. :P

    If you ever decide to start driving, even if its 5-10 years down the road, car insurance companies will ask you how long you've held a valid driver license. Even if you're 30-something at the time and the answer is only few years or less, your rates will be astronomical. My sister made the mistake of not getting a license until she could get a car (when was about 22) and 5 years later she pays about double what I pay for insurance - and she only has the minimum liability coverage on a 13-14 year old car and I have full coverage with a low deductible on a 2010 car and I am only a year older. So, seriously, you should get your license asap or it may cost you later.

    MushroomStick on
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    CircaCirca Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    illig wrote: »
    badger2d wrote: »
    illig wrote: »
    anything motorized will either require a license (usually based on engine size/speed etc.) or will get you harassed by cops based on local laws (that's why you don't see people all over the place on those little mini-bikes or chinese scooters... they're outlawed in most places)

    the only choices left are pretty much bicycles and cars...

    for bicycles, you should realize that being on two wheels is one of the benefits, not a disadvantage... a 2 wheel bike can go anywhere, and avoid obstacles that a three/four wheel vehicle can't, and is much more stable at speed... if you're absolutely set on a tricycle, look into a recumbent bike like this one: http://www.terratrike.com/models.php

    for cars... just get your license... in the US, obtaining a license is basically an exercise in filling out forms... no actual knowledge or skill, or ever having been near/in a car is actually required

    get your license and borrow cars when needed until you get your own

    Except for the parts where you have to a) pass a multiple-choice test of your knowledge of traffic regulations, and b) actually get into a car and do a driving test with an inspector along for the ride to grade you?

    Not that either is set to be terribly difficult, and I agree with the larger point of just get a license it's not that hard, but just "filling out forms" doesn't do it. At least in California, which is where I and the OP are both located. People of perfectly normal intelligence do fail at both the written and the driving tests if they go in thinking like that.

    i stand by my statement... you can learn all you need to pass the multiple choice test by flipping through the pamphlet they give you while waiting in line to take the test, and the driving test is a joke

    i will further bolster my statement with the following: the test is designed to be passed by people with the IQ of a stick, with 75% blindness, and complete ignorance of the english language

    I don't know what kind of voodoo you're into, but most people can't pass a driving test without ever having been in/near a car. In fact, I'm fairly sure you need to have been in a car long enough to learn how to drive it in order to pass a driving test.

    Circa on
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    MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Circa wrote: »
    illig wrote: »
    badger2d wrote: »
    illig wrote: »
    anything motorized will either require a license (usually based on engine size/speed etc.) or will get you harassed by cops based on local laws (that's why you don't see people all over the place on those little mini-bikes or chinese scooters... they're outlawed in most places)

    the only choices left are pretty much bicycles and cars...

    for bicycles, you should realize that being on two wheels is one of the benefits, not a disadvantage... a 2 wheel bike can go anywhere, and avoid obstacles that a three/four wheel vehicle can't, and is much more stable at speed... if you're absolutely set on a tricycle, look into a recumbent bike like this one: http://www.terratrike.com/models.php

    for cars... just get your license... in the US, obtaining a license is basically an exercise in filling out forms... no actual knowledge or skill, or ever having been near/in a car is actually required

    get your license and borrow cars when needed until you get your own

    Except for the parts where you have to a) pass a multiple-choice test of your knowledge of traffic regulations, and b) actually get into a car and do a driving test with an inspector along for the ride to grade you?

    Not that either is set to be terribly difficult, and I agree with the larger point of just get a license it's not that hard, but just "filling out forms" doesn't do it. At least in California, which is where I and the OP are both located. People of perfectly normal intelligence do fail at both the written and the driving tests if they go in thinking like that.

    i stand by my statement... you can learn all you need to pass the multiple choice test by flipping through the pamphlet they give you while waiting in line to take the test, and the driving test is a joke

    i will further bolster my statement with the following: the test is designed to be passed by people with the IQ of a stick, with 75% blindness, and complete ignorance of the english language

    I don't know what kind of voodoo you're into, but most people can't pass a driving test without ever having been in/near a car. In fact, I'm fairly sure you need to have been in a car long enough to learn how to drive it in order to pass a driving test.

    You would be horrified at what they let pass around here. I have personally witnessed examiners give "do overs" on what should have been failed portions of road tests for commercial driver's licenses.

    MushroomStick on
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    CircaCirca Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    You should be able to get a learners permit just by taking a written test and probably an eye exam. But an actual, proper licences requires a driving test with an instructor.

    Circa on
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    MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    Circa wrote: »
    You should be able to get a learners permit just by taking a written test and probably an eye exam. But an actual, proper licences requires a driving test with an instructor.

    In a lot of places, that driving test consists of a drive around the block. I don't think anyone is implying that this is a good thing.

    MushroomStick on
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    Brian KrakowBrian Krakow Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    And in a lot of places, they don't.

    How difficult your test is depends on where you take it and who grades you, but my personal experience with California driving tests is that they consist of much more than going around the block.

    Brian Krakow on
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    CircaCirca Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    I've never heard of it just being a drive around the block. I'm not in California, but for my driving test, I essentially had to prove I was actually a competent driver. They made me park, reverse, drive on the highway at speed, execute passes, merge, parallel park, turn, etc.

    Circa on
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    WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    edited July 2010
    yalborap wrote: »
    Just be ready to be surprised that cheapo junker bikes usually out last the expensive ones )

    Editted cause it was worded all snarky at first unintentionally

    Hey, if a cheap bike lasts me for years and years and years, more power to it. If I don't end up needing an expensive bike, awesome. It'll depend on what my needs turn out to be.

    Cheaper Bikes are usually easier to find parts for/fix yourself without any prior knowledge too ( and kinda fun to learn , old school puzzle style)

    WiseManTobes on
    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
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