I just hope that the unreliable narrator stuff doesn't just mean varying levels of over-the-top-ness.
The more I think about it, the more I totally hope it does. If there was ever a place for Bioware to cut loose, it would be much less out of place here than in The Dark Second Act, as amusing as some of the tangents in ME2 may have been.
Plus, when you have that kind of ludicrous fantasy fantasy, you have the ability to make fantasy reality that much heavier by comparison.
I don't want to see videos of that alpha-coded abomination. I think I would puke. Maybe later on, if it has more shine.
If it's good enough to be put out for public demos...
Maybe the new kinky thing to do is to watch the alpha build. Like it's the new scat, or something.
Two Dragon Ages, One Cup.
I am slightly optimistic, though. Starcraft looked horrendous before it came out, and hey, at least Bioware isn't going the low-brow route and doctoring screen-shots. Not yet, anyway.
I don't want to see videos of that alpha-coded abomination. I think I would puke. Maybe later on, if it has more shine.
If it's good enough to be put out for public demos...
Showing the game to journalists is hardly a public demo. A journalist will ignore the bugs and unpolished content when writing his review. Game devs usually don't show game content to the public unless it can look like it could be a finished product.
No, it was on display at the EA thing during comic-con, at the hotel across the street. If it was like last year, you didn't even need a badge to get in to see it.
Nope, we have next to no real gameplay shots or footage, much less PC shots. But all the previews that actually talk about the PC version keep saying that it's closer, and at a lower angle. Both of which were already a bit limiting in DAO
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MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
They’re focusing their attention on really highly detailed environments. But at the end of the day, environments don’t tell story.
You know, as a big fan of games from people like Valve, Irrational and Team Ico, this is a very disappointing sentiment. I think the environment is, if anything, the most important narrative element in the medium.
They’re focusing their attention on really highly detailed environments. But at the end of the day, environments don’t tell story.
You know, as a big fan of games from people like Valve, Irrational and Team Ico, this is a very disappointing sentiment. I think the environment is, if anything, the most important narrative element in the medium.
You know, while I'm not really convinced with the art direction, the idea is fine. Especially with the cinematic direction in conversations, where they focused so tight on the sub-par texturing and modeling on NPCs, while the background was significantly more detailed. Admittedly, this was far less of a problem in DAO than ME, since they had PC level textures, but more importantly had the PC generated at the same LOD as the NPCs, so it was less noticable.
They’re focusing their attention on really highly detailed environments. But at the end of the day, environments don’t tell story.
You know, as a big fan of games from people like Valve, Irrational and Team Ico, this is a very disappointing sentiment. I think the environment is, if anything, the most important narrative element in the medium.
I'd say that the idea of the quote is applicable more towards the kinds of games we're making - in a game like STALKER, the environment is just as much a character as anyone you meet - hell, it's probably more of one than most of the people. In a game where conversations and character development plays such an important part, you can relegate the environment to the background in a way that Half-Life, STALKER, or any of the Team Ico games wouldn't work well with.
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
Am I the only PC player of Dragon Age who never used the tactical camera?
I want to see all the art and graphics and stuff for the environments that they worked so hard to make
I don't want to stare at the floor like it's 1998 again
They’re focusing their attention on really highly detailed environments. But at the end of the day, environments don’t tell story.
You know, as a big fan of games from people like Valve, Irrational and Team Ico, this is a very disappointing sentiment. I think the environment is, if anything, the most important narrative element in the medium.
I'd say that the idea of the quote is applicable more towards the kinds of games we're making - in a game like STALKER, the environment is just as much a character as anyone you meet - hell, it's probably more of one than most of the people. In a game where conversations and character development plays such an important part, you can relegate the environment to the background in a way that Half-Life, STALKER, or any of the Team Ico games wouldn't work well with.
Still disagree, especially for a fantasy game. The environment lends tone and, more importantly, context. When you see the world the characters inhabit, you can instantly get a feel for how it influences those characters, even if not consciously. Architecture and such can say a lot about how a society functions, and without the need for a codex to try to stumble around explaining it. It's more directly engaging. There were a lot of places in Origins where there was heavy lore (and often interesting lore) that could've been integrated visually or interactively, but instead was relegated to a huge encyclopedia that 90% of the playerbase will never dig into, and without that context it can be more difficult to become immersed in and understanding of how characters present themselves. It's actually something that Mass Effect (the second more than the first) does pretty well on the whole, but Dragon Age didn't so much. Explanatory text boxes should be illegal, is what I'm saying.
A lot of that may or may not be feasible for the type of game you're making here, but it's a matter of it not being feasible rather than it not being important.
Am I the only PC player of Dragon Age who never used the tactical camera?
I want to see all the art and graphics and stuff for the environments that they worked so hard to make
I don't want to stare at the floor like it's 1998 again
No, you are not alone. I've beaten it on nightmare and rarely used the tactical view. I think I might have used it twice, but only to look around corners, never really in a fight.
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Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
They’re focusing their attention on really highly detailed environments. But at the end of the day, environments don’t tell story.
You know, as a big fan of games from people like Valve, Irrational and Team Ico, this is a very disappointing sentiment. I think the environment is, if anything, the most important narrative element in the medium.
I'd say that the idea of the quote is applicable more towards the kinds of games we're making - in a game like STALKER, the environment is just as much a character as anyone you meet - hell, it's probably more of one than most of the people. In a game where conversations and character development plays such an important part, you can relegate the environment to the background in a way that Half-Life, STALKER, or any of the Team Ico games wouldn't work well with.
Still disagree, especially for a fantasy game. The environment lends tone and, more importantly, context. When you see the world the characters inhabit, you can instantly get a feel for how it influences those characters, even if not consciously. Architecture and such can say a lot about how a society functions, and without the need for a codex to try to stumble around explaining it. It's more directly engaging. There were a lot of places in Origins where there was heavy lore (and often interesting lore) that could've been integrated visually or interactively, but instead was relegated to a huge encyclopedia that 90% of the playerbase will never dig into, and without that context it can be more difficult to become immersed in and understanding of how characters present themselves. It's actually something that Mass Effect (the second more than the first) does pretty well on the whole, but Dragon Age didn't so much. Explanatory text boxes should be illegal, is what I'm saying.
A lot of that may or may not be feasible for the type of game you're making here, but it's a matter of it not being feasible rather than it not being important.
Yeah, I really wish everyone wasn't so afraid of textboxes. A paragraph of descriptive text is worth manweeks of art design.
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
They’re focusing their attention on really highly detailed environments. But at the end of the day, environments don’t tell story.
You know, as a big fan of games from people like Valve, Irrational and Team Ico, this is a very disappointing sentiment. I think the environment is, if anything, the most important narrative element in the medium.
I'd say that the idea of the quote is applicable more towards the kinds of games we're making - in a game like STALKER, the environment is just as much a character as anyone you meet - hell, it's probably more of one than most of the people. In a game where conversations and character development plays such an important part, you can relegate the environment to the background in a way that Half-Life, STALKER, or any of the Team Ico games wouldn't work well with.
Still disagree, especially for a fantasy game. The environment lends tone and, more importantly, context. When you see the world the characters inhabit, you can instantly get a feel for how it influences those characters, even if not consciously. Architecture and such can say a lot about how a society functions, and without the need for a codex to try to stumble around explaining it. It's more directly engaging. There were a lot of places in Origins where there was heavy lore (and often interesting lore) that could've been integrated visually or interactively, but instead was relegated to a huge encyclopedia that 90% of the playerbase will never dig into, and without that context it can be more difficult to become immersed in and understanding of how characters present themselves. It's actually something that Mass Effect (the second more than the first) does pretty well on the whole, but Dragon Age didn't so much. Explanatory text boxes should be illegal, is what I'm saying.
A lot of that may or may not be feasible for the type of game you're making here, but it's a matter of it not being feasible rather than it not being important.
Yeah, I really wish everyone wasn't so afraid of textboxes. A paragraph of descriptive text is worth manweeks of art design.
Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
If you are not doing everything possible to convey as much information as possible visually, in a visual medium like comics, film, or video games, you are not doing it right
If you are not doing everything possible to convey as much information as possible visually, in a visual medium like comics, film, or video games, you are not doing it right
This is true to a degree - in a visual medium, showing is always better than telling (hell, this is true of books too, though in a different way). But there comes a point where you have to decide what you can feasibly show in a game while still operating within certain budgetary and time restrictions. Would we love to show you everything in the codex visually so you can get the information as you run around the world? Certainly! Is that feasible for a game the length of the ones we make? Not unless you're looking to double the art team and spend another year and a half in production.
It's really hard to understand how much work goes into the environmental art of a game until you've worked on one. And I'm not saying this to be condescending - I mean I literally had no idea until I started as a Cinematic Designer, and I'd been working in the industry for two and a half years prior to that. It is a lot of work, and eventually you have to decide what's a high priority and what isn't.
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
Almost as funny
If I could just target people in their junk it would be perfect
As it is, I've had eyeballs fly out of people's skulls and right by the camera in slow motion
If you are not doing everything possible to convey as much information as possible visually, in a visual medium like comics, film, or video games, you are not doing it right
This is true to a degree - in a visual medium, showing is always better than telling (hell, this is true of books too, though in a different way). But there comes a point where you have to decide what you can feasibly show in a game while still operating within certain budgetary and time restrictions. Would we love to show you everything in the codex visually so you can get the information as you run around the world? Certainly! Is that feasible for a game the length of the ones we make? Not unless you're looking to double the art team and spend another year and a half in production.
It's really hard to understand how much work goes into the environmental art of a game until you've worked on one. And I'm not saying this to be condescending - I mean I literally had no idea until I started as a Cinematic Designer, and I'd been working in the industry for two and a half years prior to that. It is a lot of work, and eventually you have to decide what's a high priority and what isn't.
And bringing it back full circle, if you're going to be making a cinematic game, it's a better use of resources to spend it on characters than the environment. Especially if you're going to be zooming really close on them in conversations
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
If you are not doing everything possible to convey as much information as possible visually, in a visual medium like comics, film, or video games, you are not doing it right
This is true to a degree - in a visual medium, showing is always better than telling (hell, this is true of books too, though in a different way). But there comes a point where you have to decide what you can feasibly show in a game while still operating within certain budgetary and time restrictions. Would we love to show you everything in the codex visually so you can get the information as you run around the world? Certainly! Is that feasible for a game the length of the ones we make? Not unless you're looking to double the art team and spend another year and a half in production.
It's really hard to understand how much work goes into the environmental art of a game until you've worked on one. And I'm not saying this to be condescending - I mean I literally had no idea until I started as a Cinematic Designer, and I'd been working in the industry for two and a half years prior to that. It is a lot of work, and eventually you have to decide what's a high priority and what isn't.
Oh yeah, I totally understand that
But that's the dark side of the Codex, as an idea
It allows you to convey information in a detailed, informative way without having to have the game straight up stop and explain shit to you that really you should already know as a resident of this world
But on the other hand, it allows you to convey a shitload of information in text without having to go through the time and effort to texture and model and animate and do a whole bunch of shit to convey that through the game world
So far you guys have done a good job of not making the Codex required reading and conveying all the important bits through the world and the narrative naturally, but it's a very delicate balance
A lesser developer might give in to temptation after a while
If they decide to go with a new protagonist, I'd really rather they stick with that and decide to focus more on introducing new characters instead of bringing back old ones.
I really don't like the codex. It is an incredibly bad way to create depth. Compare it to Starcraft 2- which has a lot of fluff text too. Not as much as DA:O obviously, but every bit of fluff text has some cool graphic or animation attached to it. I'm much more inclined to read some background text if there is a model of a giant mech with whirring gattling guns in the background.
If you can't afford to animate a model just to stand in the background, then an awesome picture would suffice.
I really don't like the codex. It is an incredibly bad way to create depth. Compare it to Starcraft 2- which has a lot of fluff text too. Not as much as DA:O obviously, but every bit of fluff text has some cool graphic or animation attached to it. I'm much more inclined to read some background text if there is a model of a giant mech with whirring gattling guns in the background.
If you can't afford to animate a model just to stand in the background, then an awesome picture would suffice.
Narrations can help quite a bit for those of us who are illiterate lazy bastards
Especially if they are read by someone with a sexy Vincent Price-ian voice.
I really don't like the codex. It is an incredibly bad way to create depth. Compare it to Starcraft 2- which has a lot of fluff text too. Not as much as DA:O obviously, but every bit of fluff text has some cool graphic or animation attached to it. I'm much more inclined to read some background text if there is a model of a giant mech with whirring gattling guns in the background.
If you can't afford to animate a model just to stand in the background, then an awesome picture would suffice.
See, I wasn't a big fan of the codex either, but I was glad it was there, because if I wanted to know something about something, I could look it up in the codex. And shit - a lot of god-damn work went into that codex, even if it doesn't have 'awesome pictures' or mechs whirring gattling guns.
But the best feature about the codex is that you can totally choose to just not look at it.
If they decide to go with a new protagonist, I'd really rather they stick with that and decide to focus more on introducing new characters instead of bringing back old ones.
I'd take it a step further and wish that they'd just make a clean break with each game, and simplify the C&C to be self contained, rather than accumulating a bunch of baggage with each new game
If they decide to go with a new protagonist, I'd really rather they stick with that and decide to focus more on introducing new characters instead of bringing back old ones.
I'd take it a step further and wish that they'd just make a clean break with each game, and simplify the C&C to be self contained, rather than accumulating a bunch of baggage with each new game
Yes. Yes.
I want to focus as little as possible on Origins and the occurences therein in Dragon Age 2, personally.
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Plus, when you have that kind of ludicrous fantasy fantasy, you have the ability to make fantasy reality that much heavier by comparison.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
Maybe the new kinky thing to do is to watch the alpha build. Like it's the new scat, or something.
Two Dragon Ages, One Cup.
I am slightly optimistic, though. Starcraft looked horrendous before it came out, and hey, at least Bioware isn't going the low-brow route and doctoring screen-shots. Not yet, anyway.
Showing the game to journalists is hardly a public demo. A journalist will ignore the bugs and unpolished content when writing his review. Game devs usually don't show game content to the public unless it can look like it could be a finished product.
Battle.net: Fireflash#1425
Steam Friend code: 45386507
A bit longer preview:
http://www.gamesradar.com/pc/dragon-age-2/preview/dragon-age-ii-hands-on/a-20100817181710168083/g-2010070893233136058
I'm still skeptical about the new camera. Top down was really the only way to accurately aim spells and backstabs. Especially cones. Angled is fine, if you're playing with no FF, but when you need to get an enemy that's in melee with your other guys?
Steam: CavilatRest
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
I'd say that the idea of the quote is applicable more towards the kinds of games we're making - in a game like STALKER, the environment is just as much a character as anyone you meet - hell, it's probably more of one than most of the people. In a game where conversations and character development plays such an important part, you can relegate the environment to the background in a way that Half-Life, STALKER, or any of the Team Ico games wouldn't work well with.
I want to see all the art and graphics and stuff for the environments that they worked so hard to make
I don't want to stare at the floor like it's 1998 again
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
I used the tactical camera and then zoomed in and took screenshots of glorious CARNAGE!
A lot of that may or may not be feasible for the type of game you're making here, but it's a matter of it not being feasible rather than it not being important.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
No, you are not alone. I've beaten it on nightmare and rarely used the tactical view. I think I might have used it twice, but only to look around corners, never really in a fight.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
That's... actually not true at all
Not in any way
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
In the form of skin that was not cut in the first place? Not really.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
This is true to a degree - in a visual medium, showing is always better than telling (hell, this is true of books too, though in a different way). But there comes a point where you have to decide what you can feasibly show in a game while still operating within certain budgetary and time restrictions. Would we love to show you everything in the codex visually so you can get the information as you run around the world? Certainly! Is that feasible for a game the length of the ones we make? Not unless you're looking to double the art team and spend another year and a half in production.
It's really hard to understand how much work goes into the environmental art of a game until you've worked on one. And I'm not saying this to be condescending - I mean I literally had no idea until I started as a Cinematic Designer, and I'd been working in the industry for two and a half years prior to that. It is a lot of work, and eventually you have to decide what's a high priority and what isn't.
If I could just target people in their junk it would be perfect
As it is, I've had eyeballs fly out of people's skulls and right by the camera in slow motion
I'd say that's about equal
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
And bringing it back full circle, if you're going to be making a cinematic game, it's a better use of resources to spend it on characters than the environment. Especially if you're going to be zooming really close on them in conversations
Oh yeah, I totally understand that
But that's the dark side of the Codex, as an idea
It allows you to convey information in a detailed, informative way without having to have the game straight up stop and explain shit to you that really you should already know as a resident of this world
But on the other hand, it allows you to convey a shitload of information in text without having to go through the time and effort to texture and model and animate and do a whole bunch of shit to convey that through the game world
So far you guys have done a good job of not making the Codex required reading and conveying all the important bits through the world and the narrative naturally, but it's a very delicate balance
A lesser developer might give in to temptation after a while
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
She wasn't quite dead.
You have seen the new pictures , haven't you? :winky:
If you can't afford to animate a model just to stand in the background, then an awesome picture would suffice.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Narrations can help quite a bit for those of us who are illiterate lazy bastards
Especially if they are read by someone with a sexy Vincent Price-ian voice.
See, I wasn't a big fan of the codex either, but I was glad it was there, because if I wanted to know something about something, I could look it up in the codex. And shit - a lot of god-damn work went into that codex, even if it doesn't have 'awesome pictures' or mechs whirring gattling guns.
But the best feature about the codex is that you can totally choose to just not look at it.
I'd take it a step further and wish that they'd just make a clean break with each game, and simplify the C&C to be self contained, rather than accumulating a bunch of baggage with each new game
Yes. Yes.
I want to focus as little as possible on Origins and the occurences therein in Dragon Age 2, personally.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
Man, when I was slowly finding out about the Brood mothers, it was like
:?::xo_OD: