GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited December 2010
Nope. I've been crunching numbers the past few days and I haven't come to a final conclusion but it's definitely not clearcut like that. The problem with haste is that it only increases hps, while mastery and crit both increase hps and hpm.
I made an Excel sheet starting with clean stats of 10% crit (from Int and talents) and zero Mastery, Haste and Crit on gear. Then I calculated HPS and HPM for healing a 100%,75%,50%,25% and 0% target. And then I did the same while adding either 10% crit, 10 mastery or 14% haste (that's always the same stat budget). I did this for HW, GHW and HS (because mastery doesn't apply to the Riptide hot, so I couldn't be bothered to include it) and also included both IWS and AA procs.
results for GHW and HS:
Haste is the highest HPS increase for 100-50%. Mastery is the highest HPS and HPM increase for 25% and 0%. It's also better than crit for 50%.
results for HW:
Haste still highest hps for 100-50%, but Crit is better HPM than Mastery even for a 25% and almost as good for a 0% target.
So now we have the spell we spam the most (HW) scaling very good with crit, but when the healing really counts (i.e. big heals and low target health) then Mastery is the strongest stat by far. And also Haste gives us more time to do other stuff (Unleash Weapon, move out of fire, ...) and is still a sizable HPS increase.
Another point against mastery is that it only applies to healing spells, where Haste and Crit let us Hex faster or gain more mana out of Telluric Currents (if specced for it).
Probably tough to include in the model, but a question to be raised, is attempting to leverage Tidal Focus (Tidal waves? The riptide proc, whatever it's called) as much as possible. When you need the bigger heals, that 30% crit on Healing Surge seemingly makes it a much more efficient choice than GHW, but then I'm not sure what stats would be best. Crit would be good up to a point (not like we're ever hitting 70% crit, but still), but how much haste would I need on an already really quick heal?
Anyone have the base numbers, costs, and coefficients on HS and GHW? I'd like to do the math on these two with Tidal Focus to see it myself.
For my own education, is there a specific formula for the Mastery benefit?
Bobble on
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited December 2010
Well, HS is better than GHW when Tidal Waves is up and you can use the AA procs, but that doesn't change anything about stat preference. I posted the calculations for that a few posts back.
You can't really have too much haste until you reach the soft cap, which is defined as the amount of haste it takes to make an 1.5s cast heal (HS in our case) cast in 1.0s. 1 second is the minimum global cooldown, so you can't queue a new spell anyway before that is up. At level 85 the haste softcap is >5000 rating so basically unobtainable.
Mastery has a max value. That's 20% base and 2,5% for every point of Mastery (179 rating). It buffs your direct heals by this amount when the target is at 0 hp and by zero when the target is at 100%. It scales linear between these extremes, so base Mastery would buff your heals by 10% on a 50% target and 5% on a 75% target.
Is it a flat value like that? I was under the impression that it was basically a tiered dice roll based on player health. Are you saying that if my Mastery is 30% to heals or "up to" 30% to heals that it's on a set slide based on target health?
Well, HS is better than GHW when Tidal Waves is up and you can use the AA procs, but that doesn't change anything about stat preference. I posted the calculations for that a few posts back.
Mastery has a max value. That's 20% base and 2,5% for every point of Mastery (179 rating). It buffs your direct heals by this amount when the target is at 0 hp and by zero when the target is at 100%. It scales linear between these extremes, so base Mastery would buff your heals by 10% on a 50% target and 5% on a 75% target.
Thanks, and wow, it's on the same page even. I'm trying to blame this on a lack of caffeine, but it's getting late in the morning for that even :oops:
Bobble on
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited December 2010
@mutilate: it's not really a dice roll (because there's nothing random in it), but yes, it scales based on the health of the target. Like I said, you only get the full bonus (as specified by "up to X%" in the tooltip) on an imaginary 0 health target. And you get no bonus on a full health target.
I guess this is also an argument for Mastery: Crit is always a dice roll so you could get unlucky and not crit for a long time. Mastery is always on.
@bobble: I also edited some stuff about haste into my previous post.
A question I considered whilst on-route to the bus this morning: does anyone know if Earth Shield is affected by Mastery on a per-proc basis? Or is its healing coefficient still taken into account only when it's first cast?
A question I considered whilst on-route to the bus this morning: does anyone know if Earth Shield is affected by Mastery on a per-proc basis? Or is its healing coefficient still taken into account only when it's first cast?
Table on EJ. Guy did testing on what receives benefits from: Mastery, Unleash Earthliving, Focused Insight (Shock buff), and Nature's Blessing (Earth shield bonus).
Riptide's direct heal benefits from everything, as does Chain Heal. Earth shield itself doesn't benefit from anything, which is pretty disappointing. That would bump the value of mastery in my eyes a fair bit. Same for the Earthliving proc.
That's a handy little chart, but it's a shame that Earf Shield wasn't beefed up a bit to match the new mechanics. However, it's good to know that Mastery affects Healing Rain ticks (and I've already determined that Earthliving procs from HR, making it even more special).
Earth shield's main benefit with the new mechanics is that it is ludicrously efficient, and it gives you 15% more healing on that target, further boosting your efficiency.
That's a handy little chart, but it's a shame that Earf Shield wasn't beefed up a bit to match the new mechanics. However, it's good to know that Mastery affects Healing Rain ticks (and I've already determined that Earthliving procs from HR, making it even more special).
Mastery is the go-to stat for Healing Rain, because HR can't proc IWS and crit therefore isn't that good. That's another reason I have such a hard time deciding between the three secondary stats.
The ES buff to direct heals is almost nonexistant for Shaman doing 25mans on raid healing duty. I've seen people sacrificing a point in Nature's Blessing for Telluric Currents.
Does Ancestral Swiftness also increase the speed of Ghost wolf, making it +60% overall?
EDIT: It would have been 45% not 60% because I'm dumb; but checking around looks like no, just non-wolf movement speed. Still will be a nice thing to take, at least while leveling.
Does Ancestral Swiftness also increase the speed of Ghost wolf, making it +60% overall?
EDIT: It would have been 45% not 60% because I'm dumb; but checking around looks like no, just non-wolf movement speed. Still will be a nice thing to take, at least while leveling.
I think it's still true that one of the biggest buffs to leveling speed you can get is a buff to your movement speed. The mount change (to 20 & 40 instead of 40 & 60) was a massive boost to leveling speed. I used to get the runspeed enchant on a good pair of boots for my alts :P
Are Focused Insight or Telluric Currents even worth it? I always looked at those as more leveling or gimmick talents than must haves.
I have no clue if it's the best thing to do, but I enjoy telluric currents in 5 mans.
Does it help with mana management or is it just "hey free dps". My mana management is pretty good right now unless things just completely go to shit. I would love to have a few more options to try and boost mana in tight situations.
In tight situations Telluric Currents won't help. It takes too long to cast Lightning Bolt to really save/gain you any mana. As Heroics get easier, I imagine it'll be a lot of fun, though.
Focused Insight is mostly a PVP talent.
Edit: While I'm here, what's the generic PVP spec for enhance shaman? I think I've got it right, but I don't have toughness. /shrug
I think focused insight is better for actual healing than telluric currents. For a teensy bit of extra mana, you get a 30% boost to your next heal. It's like another Unleash Weapon effect. The problem with both talents is their miss rate though.
I think focused insight is better for actual healing than telluric currents. For a teensy bit of extra mana, you get a 30% boost to your next heal. It's like another Unleash Weapon effect. The problem with both talents is their miss rate though.
Well, the main problem with focused insight is that shock spells are fucking expensive (about as much as a chain heal). Unleash Life, OTOH, costs about as much as a riptide and does its own healing to boot.
I think focused insight is better for actual healing than telluric currents. For a teensy bit of extra mana, you get a 30% boost to your next heal. It's like another Unleash Weapon effect. The problem with both talents is their miss rate though.
Well, the main problem with focused insight is that shock spells are fucking expensive (about as much as a chain heal). Unleash Life, OTOH, costs about as much as a riptide and does its own healing to boot.
Yeah but you get 75% of the cost off your next heal. I think the mana costs are probably equal. And it's a 30% boost instead of 20%+direct heal. Basically it's nice to have another heal booster, since unleash weapon is on a 15s cooldown.
I don't like focused insight for PVE (it's likely very nice in pvp). If you need a heal bomb, I don't think it's worth the GCD. At least UW gives you an instant heal.
I like the idea of telluric currents, but I've yet to run into a situation where it's really useful. Fights are either easy to heal (in which case I have time to LB but don't really need the mana) or hard to heal (and I need to be healing things, not spamming LBs.)
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
What kind of stats do you think a shaman should roughly be looking at to reliably heal heroics? ilvl 330 doesn't really seem to cut it for most pug groups. HW doesn't have the throughput required to keep the group up, and I run out of mana way too fast if I have to use LHW extensively to keep people alive.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Are Focused Insight or Telluric Currents even worth it? I always looked at those as more leveling or gimmick talents than must haves.
These talents have a place for certain gimmick fights where healers need to dps, like Chimaeron. At 20%, healing is reduced by 99% and you have to kill him before he kills everyone (it always takes him 2 hits to kill someone at that point), so all the healers need to help dps him down.
Focused Insight can be useful on certain fights where you know exactly when damage spikes are going to occur and can prepare for it with a shock.
So you're right, they are pretty much gimmicks.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
That isn't really what those talents do, though. Focused insight doesn't help you dps at all, and telluric currents doesn't really either, unless you're in danger of running out of mana.
Telluric currents makes sense if there are intervals in fights where healers can dps (either because there's little incoming damage or because other healers can pick up the slack while they regen.) It's like wanding for mana back in the day. In five mans though, there aren't that many fights that fit this model.
If Focused insight has much pve use, it feels like a talent for letting elemental shamans heal a bit, not for letting restos dps. It doesn't make much sense to me for pve resto, since in that shock GCD you could've cast most of another heal for more and more efficient healing.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
What kind of stats do you think a shaman should roughly be looking at to reliably heal heroics? ilvl 330 doesn't really seem to cut it for most pug groups. HW doesn't have the throughput required to keep the group up, and I run out of mana way too fast if I have to use LHW extensively to keep people alive.
From what I've seen of PUG healers and just general PUG failure/success, I don't think I'd start healing heroics until I had at least 80k mana.
I personally love focused insight. And contrary to what EJ says, the +30% proc you get comes regardless of whether or not your shock actually hits the target, making it a net gain without speccing into the second tier of elemental.
Between it and tidal waves/healing rain/ glyphed chain heal, I think shaman have a nice little niche of tank/melee blob healers this expansion.
Melee-blob healer is pretty accurate. H-SC was damn easy to heal with myself being the only non-melee, but whenever there's some ranged they always manage to stand as far apart as possible. We're talking withing decimal places of healing range.
I have had both Focused Insight and Telluric Currents since 4.0, but I think it's time to re-evaluate my spec. FI is great for the healing boost when used correctly (in prep for a big damage spike, as it's been said), and TC is losing value as my mana pool grows.
What kind of stats do you think a shaman should roughly be looking at to reliably heal heroics? ilvl 330 doesn't really seem to cut it for most pug groups. HW doesn't have the throughput required to keep the group up, and I run out of mana way too fast if I have to use LHW extensively to keep people alive.
From what I've seen of PUG healers and just general PUG failure/success, I don't think I'd start healing heroics until I had at least 80k mana.
I don't know if this is the right thing to do but when I started heroics I started stacking INT and SPI. After that I would say try to balance haste and crit. I have noticed that over 1300 haste I am seeing diminishing returns. I am sure there is another sweet spot above that but we won't see it for another tier more than likely. I was originaly reforging and gemming for mastery but have since changed some of it back to crit or haste. I still have some mastery but I am not focusing on it anymore. Like Forty said INT and SPI are your bread and butter.
The other thing with heroics is you really need to force yourself not to top people off and make the other group members accountable for their actions. Avoidable damage is supposed to be avoided. Shocker, I know. If a dps dies because they don't want to pay attention, so be it. For me that was the hardest thing to learn since I have always played healing like a whack-a-mole with red and green bars. That's not how the game works anymore.
Yeah don't be afraid to let a stupid dps die, it's much easier and more mana efficient to keep 4 competent players alive than keep pouring mana down the stupid drain.
Yeah don't be afraid to let a stupid dps die, it's much easier and more mana efficient to keep 4 competent players alive than keep pouring mana down the stupid drain.
The big problem with this is until you've done a heroic a few times, you're not going to be aware of how much damage is avoidable or not. You'll just see health bars dropping, and sometimes it's not through any fault of the DPS.
Posts
I made an Excel sheet starting with clean stats of 10% crit (from Int and talents) and zero Mastery, Haste and Crit on gear. Then I calculated HPS and HPM for healing a 100%,75%,50%,25% and 0% target. And then I did the same while adding either 10% crit, 10 mastery or 14% haste (that's always the same stat budget). I did this for HW, GHW and HS (because mastery doesn't apply to the Riptide hot, so I couldn't be bothered to include it) and also included both IWS and AA procs.
results for GHW and HS:
Haste is the highest HPS increase for 100-50%. Mastery is the highest HPS and HPM increase for 25% and 0%. It's also better than crit for 50%.
results for HW:
Haste still highest hps for 100-50%, but Crit is better HPM than Mastery even for a 25% and almost as good for a 0% target.
So now we have the spell we spam the most (HW) scaling very good with crit, but when the healing really counts (i.e. big heals and low target health) then Mastery is the strongest stat by far. And also Haste gives us more time to do other stuff (Unleash Weapon, move out of fire, ...) and is still a sizable HPS increase.
Another point against mastery is that it only applies to healing spells, where Haste and Crit let us Hex faster or gain more mana out of Telluric Currents (if specced for it).
Anyone have the base numbers, costs, and coefficients on HS and GHW? I'd like to do the math on these two with Tidal Focus to see it myself.
For my own education, is there a specific formula for the Mastery benefit?
You can't really have too much haste until you reach the soft cap, which is defined as the amount of haste it takes to make an 1.5s cast heal (HS in our case) cast in 1.0s. 1 second is the minimum global cooldown, so you can't queue a new spell anyway before that is up. At level 85 the haste softcap is >5000 rating so basically unobtainable.
Mastery has a max value. That's 20% base and 2,5% for every point of Mastery (179 rating). It buffs your direct heals by this amount when the target is at 0 hp and by zero when the target is at 100%. It scales linear between these extremes, so base Mastery would buff your heals by 10% on a 50% target and 5% on a 75% target.
Thanks, and wow, it's on the same page even. I'm trying to blame this on a lack of caffeine, but it's getting late in the morning for that even :oops:
I guess this is also an argument for Mastery: Crit is always a dice roll so you could get unlucky and not crit for a long time. Mastery is always on.
@bobble: I also edited some stuff about haste into my previous post.
Table on EJ. Guy did testing on what receives benefits from: Mastery, Unleash Earthliving, Focused Insight (Shock buff), and Nature's Blessing (Earth shield bonus).
Riptide's direct heal benefits from everything, as does Chain Heal. Earth shield itself doesn't benefit from anything, which is pretty disappointing. That would bump the value of mastery in my eyes a fair bit. Same for the Earthliving proc.
Fuck even some of the raid content.
I healed the easier heroics and even Naxx with it before.
And only ES. So basically I didn't heal.
Mastery is the go-to stat for Healing Rain, because HR can't proc IWS and crit therefore isn't that good. That's another reason I have such a hard time deciding between the three secondary stats.
The ES buff to direct heals is almost nonexistant for Shaman doing 25mans on raid healing duty. I've seen people sacrificing a point in Nature's Blessing for Telluric Currents.
Does Ancestral Swiftness also increase the speed of Ghost wolf, making it +60% overall?
EDIT: It would have been 45% not 60% because I'm dumb; but checking around looks like no, just non-wolf movement speed. Still will be a nice thing to take, at least while leveling.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I think it's still true that one of the biggest buffs to leveling speed you can get is a buff to your movement speed. The mount change (to 20 & 40 instead of 40 & 60) was a massive boost to leveling speed. I used to get the runspeed enchant on a good pair of boots for my alts :P
I have no clue if it's the best thing to do, but I enjoy telluric currents in 5 mans.
Does it help with mana management or is it just "hey free dps". My mana management is pretty good right now unless things just completely go to shit. I would love to have a few more options to try and boost mana in tight situations.
Focused Insight is mostly a PVP talent.
Edit: While I'm here, what's the generic PVP spec for enhance shaman? I think I've got it right, but I don't have toughness. /shrug
Well, the main problem with focused insight is that shock spells are fucking expensive (about as much as a chain heal). Unleash Life, OTOH, costs about as much as a riptide and does its own healing to boot.
Steam: pazython
Yeah but you get 75% of the cost off your next heal. I think the mana costs are probably equal. And it's a 30% boost instead of 20%+direct heal. Basically it's nice to have another heal booster, since unleash weapon is on a 15s cooldown.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
These talents have a place for certain gimmick fights where healers need to dps, like Chimaeron. At 20%, healing is reduced by 99% and you have to kill him before he kills everyone (it always takes him 2 hits to kill someone at that point), so all the healers need to help dps him down.
Focused Insight can be useful on certain fights where you know exactly when damage spikes are going to occur and can prepare for it with a shock.
So you're right, they are pretty much gimmicks.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Telluric currents makes sense if there are intervals in fights where healers can dps (either because there's little incoming damage or because other healers can pick up the slack while they regen.) It's like wanding for mana back in the day. In five mans though, there aren't that many fights that fit this model.
If Focused insight has much pve use, it feels like a talent for letting elemental shamans heal a bit, not for letting restos dps. It doesn't make much sense to me for pve resto, since in that shock GCD you could've cast most of another heal for more and more efficient healing.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Between it and tidal waves/healing rain/ glyphed chain heal, I think shaman have a nice little niche of tank/melee blob healers this expansion.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OLcAGbXhWIVcl5IziVpG0eKFJS3xi_Sac9kYMkRFvD8/edit?usp=sharing
I have had both Focused Insight and Telluric Currents since 4.0, but I think it's time to re-evaluate my spec. FI is great for the healing boost when used correctly (in prep for a big damage spike, as it's been said), and TC is losing value as my mana pool grows.
This is good. I know the simming guys on EJ were saying a MH caster weapon was way outperforming a MH agility weapon, which would be disappointing.
I don't know if this is the right thing to do but when I started heroics I started stacking INT and SPI. After that I would say try to balance haste and crit. I have noticed that over 1300 haste I am seeing diminishing returns. I am sure there is another sweet spot above that but we won't see it for another tier more than likely. I was originaly reforging and gemming for mastery but have since changed some of it back to crit or haste. I still have some mastery but I am not focusing on it anymore. Like Forty said INT and SPI are your bread and butter.
The other thing with heroics is you really need to force yourself not to top people off and make the other group members accountable for their actions. Avoidable damage is supposed to be avoided. Shocker, I know. If a dps dies because they don't want to pay attention, so be it. For me that was the hardest thing to learn since I have always played healing like a whack-a-mole with red and green bars. That's not how the game works anymore.