They are very different spells, given that fungal holds you in place. Even fungalled an enemy army as it tries to come at you through a choke? It's almost better than force field, in that case. Similarly, it can catch a retreating army just as concussive shells can.
I used infested terran earlier to wreck an expo with only three infestors while I was simultaneously fighting at another expo earlier. That was pretty fun.
point defense drone is a mediocre version of swarm.
True, but it's a different race that has it, so a very different impact.
In addition, I don't recall the last time I used dark swarm in SC 1 to ensure I could fight a quick air-to-air skirmish with no losses, or the last time I used it to provide perfect cover for my infantry drop onto an island expansion.
I have played Brood War, and this is absolutely false. I would say the spells are about the same power in both games. Terran now has two useful caster units rather than just the Science Vessel.
are you sure you played a lot of broodwar?
terran has sci vessels (irradiate, shields and emp) - all of which are awesome
ghosts (cloak, lockdown, nuke) - all of which are awesome, lockdown especially so
medics (heal, blind, restore) - all of which are awesome (restore less so) - sort of on par with medivacs but lack of blind makes terran cloaking less useful
wraiths (cloak) - absolutely essential but i'll say they are the same (or worse than) banshees
edit: i forgot yamato! but it's also in sc2 so i guess we don't need to include it. whatever the case, terrans have far more than 1 useful caster.
Fungal Growth is about on par with Plague; less damage but the root ability is amazingly powerful.
nope, not even close. rooting is nice, but nothing special compared to plague's damage and size. plague owned supply depots.
They lost Dark Swarm but got a bunch of other useful abilities in the overseer.
i'll give you that the overseer has dope abilities. no question about that.
Storm is a (little) bit weaker but force fields more than make up for that.
also smaller in radius.
I really have no idea where you're getting the idea that spells have gotten worse in this game; they are absolutely integral to play.
im getting that from the facts. i agree that they are sort of useful. just no where near as useful as in broodwar. a few temps could hold off nearly unlimited terran infantry. that's just not the case at all in sc2.
like i said, i think it was a design decision to make the spells less effective. not a "bad" one per se, just one i dont like.
point defense drone is a mediocre version of swarm.
True, but it's a different race that has it, so a very different impact.
In addition, I don't recall the last time I used dark swarm in SC 1 to ensure I could fight a quick air-to-air skirmish with no losses, or the last time I used it to provide perfect cover for my infantry drop onto an island expansion.
well like the earlier poster stated (and i agree with), it's on different races so it's hard to compare. it's still actually not as good as swarm as a matter of mechanics. swarm stopped everything except siege and bats. pdd stops almost everything.
emp was better in sc1 and it didnt break the game.
Why was emp better in SC1? I didn't say it breaks the game, I said it "almost" breaks the game.
i think emp was better in broodwar cause it crushed all shields and all mana. as far as i know, emp in sc2 doesnt do that. also it had a larger area of effect. having it on the puny sci vessel was its only real weakness.
emp + 1 nuke meant the whole protoss base was destroyed. that was amazing. i understand that this is more a function of nukes being weaker than of emp. but it is also about emp. dont forget, emp rocked buildings also.
They are very different spells, given that fungal holds you in place. Even fungalled an enemy army as it tries to come at you through a choke? It's almost better than force field, in that case. Similarly, it can catch a retreating army just as concussive shells can.
i definitely concede that fungal has its uses (and it's probably the best or one of the best spells in the game). but plague was still better. cmon, is this really a discussion? 295 damage over a larger area of effect vs 38 damage?
They are very different spells, given that fungal holds you in place. Even fungalled an enemy army as it tries to come at you through a choke? It's almost better than force field, in that case. Similarly, it can catch a retreating army just as concussive shells can.
i definitely concede that fungal has its uses (and it's probably the best or one of the best spells in the game). but plague was still better. cmon, is this really a discussion? 295 damage over a larger area of effect vs 38 damage?
Yeah, but battlefield control is much better than relatively slow damage over time. Plague is like a strong psistorm that won't work during battle, whereas fungal is closer to a combination of forcefield and psistorm.
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i think emp was better in broodwar cause it crushed all shields and all mana. as far as i know, emp in sc2 doesnt do that. also it had a larger area of effect. having it on the puny sci vessel was its only real weakness.
EMP in SC2 also removes all mana. And can be cast from a cloaked unit!
fi definitely concede that fungal has its uses (and it's probably the best or one of the best spells in the game). but plague was still better. cmon, is this really a discussion? 295 damage over a larger area of effect vs 38 damage?
In terms of direct damage, sure. But if you can fungal growth a subset of the enemy's army as they retreat, you will kill those units outright, rather than just injuring them. Similarly, fungalling a dropship as it leaves allows you to kill it (and the units inside) rather than just injure it.
BW Psi storm was incredibly strong yet balanced ONLY because you had to micro each individual templar and cast. With smart casting, the spell would be absurd. Throw in forcefield (an uncounterable spell...literally) and you have major trouble.
They are very different spells, given that fungal holds you in place. Even fungalled an enemy army as it tries to come at you through a choke? It's almost better than force field, in that case. Similarly, it can catch a retreating army just as concussive shells can.
i definitely concede that fungal has its uses (and it's probably the best or one of the best spells in the game). but plague was still better. cmon, is this really a discussion? 295 damage over a larger area of effect vs 38 damage?
Yeah, but battlefield control is much better than relatively slow damage over time. Plague is like a strong psistorm that won't work during battle, whereas fungal is closer to a combination of forcefield and psistorm.
you're wrong about plague. psistorm in sc1 does 112 dmg over 4 secs (28 dmg per sec). plague does 25 dmg per sec and you cant move out of it (like you can with psi storm). plague is incredible in every situation.
Was there any professional or high-level game where someone successfully mind controlled and enemy builder?(In Brood War)
And how does the zerg mind control work? Is it possible to get an enemy builder to make buildings for you in the time limit?
I've never seen it. It's possible with toss of course, but with terran, you have to keep recapturing it and continuing to build until you finally finish a command center. Extremely unlikely; you've already won if you've gotten the chance.
Was there any professional or high-level game where someone successfully mind controlled and enemy builder?(In Brood War)
According to the liquipedia page on IntoTheRainbow, "Rainbow mind controls an SCV and builds mass tanks + wraiths in addition to protoss ground army" in this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe6tgTzdZIs (haven't watched it myself).
BW Psi storm was incredibly strong yet balanced ONLY because you had to micro each individual templar and cast. With smart casting, the spell would be absurd. Throw in forcefield (an uncounterable spell...literally) and you have major trouble.
although i love smart casting, i would give it up to have more powerful spells. spells are so much more fun when they hump units hard.
do you guys really think spells are as useful as they were in sc1? cause my game has become so much more macro oriented than it used to be. in sc2 i just generally steamroll people with mass units, not smart fighting. and im a pretty solid platinum player. it's not like im a scrub or something.
SC2 spells do less damage, but now they're actually usable by people without 200+ apm
people talk about how storm is so much weaker than it was before, but almost no normal people could handle multiple templar before. I'll gladly take that switch
There's no point comparing SC1 spells to SC2 spells.
well my point was that i think the combination of weaker spells plus stronger units makes the game much more macro focused when compared to broodwar.
im not saying spells are useless or that micro is useless. i just think they are less useful than they were in sc1.
personally i dont like it and prefer a heavier action oriented game. i dont think there needs to be that much micro for your economy (so i love automine). but i do think that battles in sc1 were more fun than in sc2 right now because they seemed far more micro and spell heavy.
do you guys really think spells are as useful as they were in sc1? cause my game has become so much more macro oriented than it used to be. in sc2 i just generally steamroll people with mass units, not smart fighting. and im a pretty solid platinum player. it's not like im a scrub or something.
Ah, but that's because the average skill level of people playing SC2 is (at least now, and probably for long into the forseable future) far lower than the average skill level of people playing BW right now. People still playing BW naturally have to be quite mechanically skilled. Conversely, there are tons of new players in the SC2 beta, making anything lower than platinum easy to beat if you are mechanically good (note: I am not mechanically good).
At higher levels, on the other hand (at least judging by casted games) spells are vital.
SC2 spells do less damage, but now they're actually usable by people without 200+ apm
people talk about how storm is so much weaker than it was before, but almost no normal people could handle multiple templar before. I'll gladly take that switch
but i only average 40 apms! normal people (like me) can handle multiple spell casters dude. i would even go so far as to argue that stronger spells makes it easier to handle multiple casters because:
1) you dont need as many casters; and
2) because they do more damage over a wider area, you have more leeway even if you fuck up.
do you guys really think spells are as useful as they were in sc1? cause my game has become so much more macro oriented than it used to be. in sc2 i just generally steamroll people with mass units, not smart fighting. and im a pretty solid platinum player. it's not like im a scrub or something.
Ah, but that's because the average skill level of people playing SC2 is (at least now, and probably for long into the forseable future) far lower than the average skill level of people playing BW right now. People still playing BW naturally have to be quite mechanically skilled. Conversely, there are tons of new players in the SC2 beta, making anything lower than platinum easy to beat if you are mechanically good (note: I am not mechanically good).
At higher levels, on the other hand (at least judging by casted games) spells are vital.
i can see that. last time i logged on, there were only 1 million players so it's definitely a smaller pool of competition.
but im surprised that people dont want stronger spells. do most people think that would be a bad thing? just wondering.
do you guys really think spells are as useful as they were in sc1? cause my game has become so much more macro oriented than it used to be. in sc2 i just generally steamroll people with mass units, not smart fighting. and im a pretty solid platinum player. it's not like im a scrub or something.
Ah, but that's because the average skill level of people playing SC2 is (at least now, and probably for long into the forseable future) far lower than the average skill level of people playing BW right now. People still playing BW naturally have to be quite mechanically skilled. Conversely, there are tons of new players in the SC2 beta, making anything lower than platinum easy to beat if you are mechanically good (note: I am not mechanically good).
At higher levels, on the other hand (at least judging by casted games) spells are vital.
i can see that. last time i logged on, there were only 1 million players so it's definitely a smaller pool of competition.
but im surprised that people dont want stronger spells. do most people think that would be a bad thing? just wondering.
It's mostly that the spells already seem really good in starcraft 2, especially when you think about how easy it is to fill a whole screen with storms if you have 5+ templar. I really think that making them any stronger would be incredibly overpowered and totally fuck up the mechanics of the game
do you guys really think spells are as useful as they were in sc1? cause my game has become so much more macro oriented than it used to be. in sc2 i just generally steamroll people with mass units, not smart fighting. and im a pretty solid platinum player. it's not like im a scrub or something.
Ah, but that's because the average skill level of people playing SC2 is (at least now, and probably for long into the forseable future) far lower than the average skill level of people playing BW right now. People still playing BW naturally have to be quite mechanically skilled. Conversely, there are tons of new players in the SC2 beta, making anything lower than platinum easy to beat if you are mechanically good (note: I am not mechanically good).
At higher levels, on the other hand (at least judging by casted games) spells are vital.
i can see that. last time i logged on, there were only 1 million players so it's definitely a smaller pool of competition.
but im surprised that people dont want stronger spells. do most people think that would be a bad thing? just wondering.
It's mostly that the spells already seem really good in starcraft 2, especially when you think about how easy it is to fill a whole screen with storms if you have 5+ templar. I really think that making them any stronger would be incredibly overpowered and totally fuck up the mechanics of the game
does anyone have any links to replays where psistorm actually changed the course of the game?
I can't wait until auto-unburrow banelings really catch on, still seems like it's not common knowledge and hasn't been taken advantage on
also i find it funny the ghosts and templar can instantly nullify each other, i'm expecting quickdraw duels to become quite common between the two
i think it's going to be a losing battle for the templar. emp is aoe whereas feedback isnt.
i think it would be cool to put feedback on dts. but then again, i have a lot of weird (and often bad) ideas.
feeback outranges emp though, but then there's cloak and snipe too (i think snipe has same range as feedback). I could see it being a real tossup and really dependent on who clicks faster or does really smart positioning
do you guys really think spells are as useful as they were in sc1? cause my game has become so much more macro oriented than it used to be. in sc2 i just generally steamroll people with mass units, not smart fighting. and im a pretty solid platinum player. it's not like im a scrub or something.
Ah, but that's because the average skill level of people playing SC2 is (at least now, and probably for long into the forseable future) far lower than the average skill level of people playing BW right now. People still playing BW naturally have to be quite mechanically skilled. Conversely, there are tons of new players in the SC2 beta, making anything lower than platinum easy to beat if you are mechanically good (note: I am not mechanically good).
At higher levels, on the other hand (at least judging by casted games) spells are vital.
i can see that. last time i logged on, there were only 1 million players so it's definitely a smaller pool of competition.
but im surprised that people dont want stronger spells. do most people think that would be a bad thing? just wondering.
It's mostly that the spells already seem really good in starcraft 2, especially when you think about how easy it is to fill a whole screen with storms if you have 5+ templar. I really think that making them any stronger would be incredibly overpowered and totally fuck up the mechanics of the game
does anyone have any links to replays where psistorm actually changed the course of the game?
The White-Ra/Maka game on this page: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/features.php?i=a&id=2500 is one of my favourite games from the beta. White-Ra almost entirely uses psi-storms, both against workers (from drops/and-or warp-ins) and against his opponent's army.
On that note, another thing to remember with Psi-storm in SC2 is that if you have the amulet upgrade, templar can storm as soon as they warp in. This also makes it extremely powerful.
do you guys really think spells are as useful as they were in sc1? cause my game has become so much more macro oriented than it used to be. in sc2 i just generally steamroll people with mass units, not smart fighting. and im a pretty solid platinum player. it's not like im a scrub or something.
Ah, but that's because the average skill level of people playing SC2 is (at least now, and probably for long into the forseable future) far lower than the average skill level of people playing BW right now. People still playing BW naturally have to be quite mechanically skilled. Conversely, there are tons of new players in the SC2 beta, making anything lower than platinum easy to beat if you are mechanically good (note: I am not mechanically good).
At higher levels, on the other hand (at least judging by casted games) spells are vital.
i can see that. last time i logged on, there were only 1 million players so it's definitely a smaller pool of competition.
but im surprised that people dont want stronger spells. do most people think that would be a bad thing? just wondering.
It's mostly that the spells already seem really good in starcraft 2, especially when you think about how easy it is to fill a whole screen with storms if you have 5+ templar. I really think that making them any stronger would be incredibly overpowered and totally fuck up the mechanics of the game
does anyone have any links to replays where psistorm actually changed the course of the game?
This is one of my favorite storm bits, D9D #143 (Day(9) vs Tasteless). Go to the 32 min mark.
Day(9) ends up losing the game (and really they both had a bunch of errors througout, which actually made it a lot of fun to watch). The constant storms in the choke was super effective and made for a good swing in Day9's favour. Managed to close the 40 food gap between them in the one skirmish
I think there's room for spells' effectiveness to grow as people get better with them. Think of fungal growth followed by ultras charging in
I can't wait until auto-unburrow banelings really catch on, still seems like it's not common knowledge and hasn't been taken advantage on
also i find it funny the ghosts and templar can instantly nullify each other, i'm expecting quickdraw duels to become quite common between the two
Zerg is too busy getting anti-air in the form of Hydra or Corruptors, the only things that prevents them from being fucked by Colossi/Banshees/Phoenix.
And no, building 10 queens is the dumbest solution ever.
how long do auto-unburrow banelings wait to unburrow? as soon as they spot something? do people normally get centrifugal hooks?
i would imagine the best place to put them is at the bottom of a ramp that you can't see up so they unburrow closer?
I think it's whenever something comes within range one. And I say put it wherever a bio ball may walk over it, ramps, center of route between bases, everywhere
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Why was emp better in SC1? I didn't say it breaks the game, I said it "almost" breaks the game.
They are very different spells, given that fungal holds you in place. Even fungalled an enemy army as it tries to come at you through a choke? It's almost better than force field, in that case. Similarly, it can catch a retreating army just as concussive shells can.
True, but it's a different race that has it, so a very different impact.
On a unit that no one used
I thought the beta ending today was speculation? I didn't think that Blizzard had confirmed either way (though I could be wrong).
In addition, I don't recall the last time I used dark swarm in SC 1 to ensure I could fight a quick air-to-air skirmish with no losses, or the last time I used it to provide perfect cover for my infantry drop onto an island expansion.
are you sure you played a lot of broodwar?
terran has sci vessels (irradiate, shields and emp) - all of which are awesome
ghosts (cloak, lockdown, nuke) - all of which are awesome, lockdown especially so
medics (heal, blind, restore) - all of which are awesome (restore less so) - sort of on par with medivacs but lack of blind makes terran cloaking less useful
wraiths (cloak) - absolutely essential but i'll say they are the same (or worse than) banshees
edit: i forgot yamato! but it's also in sc2 so i guess we don't need to include it. whatever the case, terrans have far more than 1 useful caster.
nope, not even close. rooting is nice, but nothing special compared to plague's damage and size. plague owned supply depots.
i'll give you that the overseer has dope abilities. no question about that.
also smaller in radius.
im getting that from the facts. i agree that they are sort of useful. just no where near as useful as in broodwar. a few temps could hold off nearly unlimited terran infantry. that's just not the case at all in sc2.
like i said, i think it was a design decision to make the spells less effective. not a "bad" one per se, just one i dont like.
well like the earlier poster stated (and i agree with), it's on different races so it's hard to compare. it's still actually not as good as swarm as a matter of mechanics. swarm stopped everything except siege and bats. pdd stops almost everything.
i think emp was better in broodwar cause it crushed all shields and all mana. as far as i know, emp in sc2 doesnt do that. also it had a larger area of effect. having it on the puny sci vessel was its only real weakness.
emp + 1 nuke meant the whole protoss base was destroyed. that was amazing. i understand that this is more a function of nukes being weaker than of emp. but it is also about emp. dont forget, emp rocked buildings also.
i definitely concede that fungal has its uses (and it's probably the best or one of the best spells in the game). but plague was still better. cmon, is this really a discussion? 295 damage over a larger area of effect vs 38 damage?
great point and i definitely concede this one.
damn you for being right! hahahaha. it's a great fucking spell.
Yeah, but battlefield control is much better than relatively slow damage over time. Plague is like a strong psistorm that won't work during battle, whereas fungal is closer to a combination of forcefield and psistorm.
In terms of direct damage, sure. But if you can fungal growth a subset of the enemy's army as they retreat, you will kill those units outright, rather than just injuring them. Similarly, fungalling a dropship as it leaves allows you to kill it (and the units inside) rather than just injure it.
I asked that very same question and got a link to a blue post saying it ends on the 19th, I'll take a look for it.
edit: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=26137134453&postId=261346524138&sid=3000#0
And how does the zerg mind control work? Is it possible to get an enemy builder to make buildings for you in the time limit?
you're wrong about plague. psistorm in sc1 does 112 dmg over 4 secs (28 dmg per sec). plague does 25 dmg per sec and you cant move out of it (like you can with psi storm). plague is incredible in every situation.
I've never seen it. It's possible with toss of course, but with terran, you have to keep recapturing it and continuing to build until you finally finish a command center. Extremely unlikely; you've already won if you've gotten the chance.
Plus they eat your zerg food.
According to the liquipedia page on IntoTheRainbow, "Rainbow mind controls an SCV and builds mass tanks + wraiths in addition to protoss ground army" in this game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe6tgTzdZIs (haven't watched it myself).
although i love smart casting, i would give it up to have more powerful spells. spells are so much more fun when they hump units hard.
do you guys really think spells are as useful as they were in sc1? cause my game has become so much more macro oriented than it used to be. in sc2 i just generally steamroll people with mass units, not smart fighting. and im a pretty solid platinum player. it's not like im a scrub or something.
people talk about how storm is so much weaker than it was before, but almost no normal people could handle multiple templar before. I'll gladly take that switch
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
well my point was that i think the combination of weaker spells plus stronger units makes the game much more macro focused when compared to broodwar.
im not saying spells are useless or that micro is useless. i just think they are less useful than they were in sc1.
personally i dont like it and prefer a heavier action oriented game. i dont think there needs to be that much micro for your economy (so i love automine). but i do think that battles in sc1 were more fun than in sc2 right now because they seemed far more micro and spell heavy.
I use spells way more often in SC2
but I'm also kinda bad so
Ah, but that's because the average skill level of people playing SC2 is (at least now, and probably for long into the forseable future) far lower than the average skill level of people playing BW right now. People still playing BW naturally have to be quite mechanically skilled. Conversely, there are tons of new players in the SC2 beta, making anything lower than platinum easy to beat if you are mechanically good (note: I am not mechanically good).
At higher levels, on the other hand (at least judging by casted games) spells are vital.
but i only average 40 apms! normal people (like me) can handle multiple spell casters dude. i would even go so far as to argue that stronger spells makes it easier to handle multiple casters because:
1) you dont need as many casters; and
2) because they do more damage over a wider area, you have more leeway even if you fuck up.
play Zerg and auto burrow banelings
i can see that. last time i logged on, there were only 1 million players so it's definitely a smaller pool of competition.
but im surprised that people dont want stronger spells. do most people think that would be a bad thing? just wondering.
also i find it funny the ghosts and templar can instantly nullify each other, i'm expecting quickdraw duels to become quite common between the two
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
It's mostly that the spells already seem really good in starcraft 2, especially when you think about how easy it is to fill a whole screen with storms if you have 5+ templar. I really think that making them any stronger would be incredibly overpowered and totally fuck up the mechanics of the game
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
i think it's going to be a losing battle for the templar. emp is aoe whereas feedback isnt.
i think it would be cool to put feedback on dts. but then again, i have a lot of weird (and often bad) ideas.
does anyone have any links to replays where psistorm actually changed the course of the game?
feeback outranges emp though, but then there's cloak and snipe too (i think snipe has same range as feedback). I could see it being a real tossup and really dependent on who clicks faster or does really smart positioning
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
The White-Ra/Maka game on this page: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/features.php?i=a&id=2500 is one of my favourite games from the beta. White-Ra almost entirely uses psi-storms, both against workers (from drops/and-or warp-ins) and against his opponent's army.
On that note, another thing to remember with Psi-storm in SC2 is that if you have the amulet upgrade, templar can storm as soon as they warp in. This also makes it extremely powerful.
This is one of my favorite storm bits, D9D #143 (Day(9) vs Tasteless). Go to the 32 min mark.
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3795900/
Day(9) ends up losing the game (and really they both had a bunch of errors througout, which actually made it a lot of fun to watch). The constant storms in the choke was super effective and made for a good swing in Day9's favour. Managed to close the 40 food gap between them in the one skirmish
I think there's room for spells' effectiveness to grow as people get better with them. Think of fungal growth followed by ultras charging in
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
The ghosts, especially when in a group, are fucking awesome, especially if you have the trinkets like cloak, not to mention nuke.
i would imagine the best place to put them is at the bottom of a ramp that you can't see up so they unburrow closer?
Zerg is too busy getting anti-air in the form of Hydra or Corruptors, the only things that prevents them from being fucked by Colossi/Banshees/Phoenix.
And no, building 10 queens is the dumbest solution ever.
I think it's whenever something comes within range one. And I say put it wherever a bio ball may walk over it, ramps, center of route between bases, everywhere
PSN: Robo_Wizard1