you know you can detonate banelings while they're burrowed at no penalty to damage. why bother unburrowing them, they might get shot.
because with auto unburrow you don't have to constantly watch them. Relying on manual explode enemies could pass right over if you're not quick
and they explode when they're killed. So if the enemy is a-moving, which they probably are, they'll walk over top, baneling will pop up in the middle, they'll all stop around it and kill it, they'll all explode
you know you can detonate banelings while they're burrowed at no penalty to damage. why bother unburrowing them, they might get shot.
yeah, but with auto-unburrow you can do other things while they run into your mines. i have used burrowed banelings to explode at my ramp to ruin bio ball before, though.
maybe this is my answer to a terran friend of mine, his timing pushes are incredible. i am always too busy droning up whenever he feels he should make a push with rines and rauders.
Since when was one base mass marine + tanks cheese?
Yeah the best part is we're not even talking about a classically defined cheese here. Just a standard terran play that IdrA should have known better than to lose to. But he's a whining bitch so he calls his opponent a fag.
Somehow I feel that an all-in 3 tank push at the 5 minute mark qualifies
It was definitely an all-in play, though it might not look like it at first glance. Masq had no transition out of this build without doing significant damage to Idra. He had no tech and a weak economy. If he kept massing marines and tanks he would be destroyed by a better army composition in the mid-late game, and he couldn't afford to switch into another composition off of one base.
Plus, let's talk about scouting Terran opponents.
I bitch about losing to Terran a lot, and the answer pretty much always boils down to "scout moar noob." There are a couple issues with this.
1): Unless you send a very (very) early drone to scout, your opponent will be walled, with one or two exceptions for particular maps (Scrap Station, a couple of the 2v2 maps, etc.) Since you almost certainly sent your drone before he had marines up, unless he's a total idiot, he will slightly delay further tech until he kills your drone. You have learned precisely dick and delayed your economy. Drone scouting is therefore only worthwhile to determine location.
2): Your OL is slow enough that by the time you get to his base, he'll have a couple of marines up and shred your OL, likely before you see anything noteworthy. If you do manage to see that he's strongly teched in a single direction, it's probably too late to change your build if it's unsuitable. Also, you are now foodcapped (or damn close to it), since he burned your OL..
3): Due to addon swapping, early scouting against Terran is often completely useless anyway. Okay, he's got one factory up with a tech lab. From there, he can either go Siege Tanks, blue flame for Hellion, or drop a starport on the tech lab for banshee harass. (Or Raven harass, but that's uncommon.) All of these require different responses. Guess wrong and you're screwed.
All of this, combined with the fact that Zerg is comparatively stupidly easy to scout - with the exception of Corruptors, every single goddamn unit requires its own building, makes ZvT very frustrating for the Zerg player until you can get OL Speed. But by the time you've got it, if you went the wrong way, it's very difficult to rejigger into something workable.
People with your attitude are never in the top tournaments.
I have absolutely no desire to play Starcraft (or any game) on that level of organized competition. People that do are not entitled to complete control of the narrative.
Because they don't blame it on the game.
Sometimes, the game really is cocked up. Look at the amount of tuning Roaches and Marauders took to get right. Within two months of release, at the latest, there will be another balance patch, guaranteed, because they don't have it right yet. Win stats posted earlier, if nothing else, demonstrate that.
They find new tactics and abuse those. There are zergs that can completely and utterly destroy every terran player you've lost to. Obviously there are. You know this, too.
Sure. There are players that have hundred-plus APM and never miss a larva spit and have a better grasp of what counters what and so on. I don't particularly care, though, 'cause I'm not that guy and never will be, not having twenty hours a week to practice and stuff.
How about trying to become like them by improving your game instead of complaining about the nature of the game?
Your attitude is ultimately defeatist, and ultimately useless for improving, because you are not blaming yourself. You are blaming the mechanics of the game for your loss. Therefore, you will not improve as much as you could.
Getting your shit pushed in over and over and over again, regardless of what you try and do, is not much of an impetus to practice. It is frustrating and pisses me off, and quite frankly my time is too valuable to be spent on things that are frustrating and piss me off. This is time I could be having sex, fer chrissakes.
It doesn't matter how much I out-macro them, or how high my APM is, or how low my unspent resources and Queen energy are, or how much creep I spread - all of which I've improved significantly on, and which do seem to make a significant difference in my other matches - if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!
you know you can detonate banelings while they're burrowed at no penalty to damage. why bother unburrowing them, they might get shot.
because with auto unburrow you don't have to constantly watch them. Relying on manual explode enemies could pass right over if you're not quick
and they explode when they're killed. So if the enemy is a-moving, which they probably are, they'll walk over top, baneling will pop up in the middle, they'll all stop around it and kill it, they'll all explode
they dont do damage when killed.
if you burrow a ling a bit further than where the blings are you'll see the army coming and be able to detonate.
question: will things auto-unburrow if an enemy they cannot attack is around. because i had burrowed zerglings at every expansion on twilight fortress, and phoenixes started killing them. was an observer with them?
question that goes with that: can burrowed things be gravity beamed?
you know you can detonate banelings while they're burrowed at no penalty to damage. why bother unburrowing them, they might get shot.
because with auto unburrow you don't have to constantly watch them. Relying on manual explode enemies could pass right over if you're not quick
and they explode when they're killed. So if the enemy is a-moving, which they probably are, they'll walk over top, baneling will pop up in the middle, they'll all stop around it and kill it, they'll all explode
they dont do damage when killed.
if you burrow a ling a bit further than where the blings are you'll see the army coming and be able to detonate.
i'm almost positive banelings still explode upon death
Since when was one base mass marine + tanks cheese?
Yeah the best part is we're not even talking about a classically defined cheese here. Just a standard terran play that IdrA should have known better than to lose to. But he's a whining bitch so he calls his opponent a fag.
Somehow I feel that an all-in 3 tank push at the 5 minute mark qualifies
It was definitely an all-in play, though it might not look like it at first glance. Masq had no transition out of this build without doing significant damage to Idra. He had no tech and a weak economy. If he kept massing marines and tanks he would be destroyed by a better army composition in the mid-late game, and he couldn't afford to switch into another composition off of one base.
Plus, let's talk about scouting Terran opponents.
I bitch about losing to Terran a lot, and the answer pretty much always boils down to "scout moar noob." There are a couple issues with this.
1): Unless you send a very (very) early drone to scout, your opponent will be walled, with one or two exceptions for particular maps (Scrap Station, a couple of the 2v2 maps, etc.) Since you almost certainly sent your drone before he had marines up, unless he's a total idiot, he will slightly delay further tech until he kills your drone. You have learned precisely dick and delayed your economy. Drone scouting is therefore only worthwhile to determine location.
2): Your OL is slow enough that by the time you get to his base, he'll have a couple of marines up and shred your OL, likely before you see anything noteworthy. If you do manage to see that he's strongly teched in a single direction, it's probably too late to change your build if it's unsuitable. Also, you are now foodcapped (or damn close to it), since he burned your OL..
3): Due to addon swapping, early scouting against Terran is often completely useless anyway. Okay, he's got one factory up with a tech lab. From there, he can either go Siege Tanks, blue flame for Hellion, or drop a starport on the tech lab for banshee harass. (Or Raven harass, but that's uncommon.) All of these require different responses. Guess wrong and you're screwed.
All of this, combined with the fact that Zerg is comparatively stupidly easy to scout - with the exception of Corruptors, every single goddamn unit requires its own building, makes ZvT very frustrating for the Zerg player until you can get OL Speed. But by the time you've got it, if you went the wrong way, it's very difficult to rejigger into something workable.
People with your attitude are never in the top tournaments.
I have absolutely no desire to play Starcraft (or any game) on that level of organized competition. People that do are not entitled to complete control of the narrative.
Because they don't blame it on the game.
Sometimes, the game really is cocked up. Look at the amount of tuning Roaches and Marauders took to get right. Within two months of release, at the latest, there will be another balance patch, guaranteed, because they don't have it right yet. Win stats posted earlier, if nothing else, demonstrate that.
They find new tactics and abuse those. There are zergs that can completely and utterly destroy every terran player you've lost to. Obviously there are. You know this, too.
Sure. There are players that have hundred-plus APM and never miss a larva spit and have a better grasp of what counters what and so on. I don't particularly care, though, 'cause I'm not that guy and never will be, not having twenty hours a week to practice and stuff.
How about trying to become like them by improving your game instead of complaining about the nature of the game?
Your attitude is ultimately defeatist, and ultimately useless for improving, because you are not blaming yourself. You are blaming the mechanics of the game for your loss. Therefore, you will not improve as much as you could.
Getting your shit pushed in over and over and over again, regardless of what you try and do, is not much of an impetus to practice. It is frustrating and pisses me off, and quite frankly my time is too valuable to be spent on things that are frustrating and piss me off. This is time I could be having sex, fer chrissakes.
It doesn't matter how much I out-macro them, or how high my APM is, or how low my unspent resources and Queen energy are, or how much creep I spread - all of which I've improved significantly on, and which do seem to make a significant difference in my other matches - if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!
You should come hang out in a lobby with some of us, it's low pressure, really fun, and after watching you play we can help you get better.
you know you can detonate banelings while they're burrowed at no penalty to damage. why bother unburrowing them, they might get shot.
because with auto unburrow you don't have to constantly watch them. Relying on manual explode enemies could pass right over if you're not quick
and they explode when they're killed. So if the enemy is a-moving, which they probably are, they'll walk over top, baneling will pop up in the middle, they'll all stop around it and kill it, they'll all explode
they dont do damage when killed.
if you burrow a ling a bit further than where the blings are you'll see the army coming and be able to detonate.
Since when was one base mass marine + tanks cheese?
Yeah the best part is we're not even talking about a classically defined cheese here. Just a standard terran play that IdrA should have known better than to lose to. But he's a whining bitch so he calls his opponent a fag.
Somehow I feel that an all-in 3 tank push at the 5 minute mark qualifies
It was definitely an all-in play, though it might not look like it at first glance. Masq had no transition out of this build without doing significant damage to Idra. He had no tech and a weak economy. If he kept massing marines and tanks he would be destroyed by a better army composition in the mid-late game, and he couldn't afford to switch into another composition off of one base.
Plus, let's talk about scouting Terran opponents.
I bitch about losing to Terran a lot, and the answer pretty much always boils down to "scout moar noob." There are a couple issues with this.
1): Unless you send a very (very) early drone to scout, your opponent will be walled, with one or two exceptions for particular maps (Scrap Station, a couple of the 2v2 maps, etc.) Since you almost certainly sent your drone before he had marines up, unless he's a total idiot, he will slightly delay further tech until he kills your drone. You have learned precisely dick and delayed your economy. Drone scouting is therefore only worthwhile to determine location.
2): Your OL is slow enough that by the time you get to his base, he'll have a couple of marines up and shred your OL, likely before you see anything noteworthy. If you do manage to see that he's strongly teched in a single direction, it's probably too late to change your build if it's unsuitable. Also, you are now foodcapped (or damn close to it), since he burned your OL..
3): Due to addon swapping, early scouting against Terran is often completely useless anyway. Okay, he's got one factory up with a tech lab. From there, he can either go Siege Tanks, blue flame for Hellion, or drop a starport on the tech lab for banshee harass. (Or Raven harass, but that's uncommon.) All of these require different responses. Guess wrong and you're screwed.
All of this, combined with the fact that Zerg is comparatively stupidly easy to scout - with the exception of Corruptors, every single goddamn unit requires its own building, makes ZvT very frustrating for the Zerg player until you can get OL Speed. But by the time you've got it, if you went the wrong way, it's very difficult to rejigger into something workable.
People with your attitude are never in the top tournaments.
I have absolutely no desire to play Starcraft (or any game) on that level of organized competition. People that do are not entitled to complete control of the narrative.
Because they don't blame it on the game.
Sometimes, the game really is cocked up. Look at the amount of tuning Roaches and Marauders took to get right. Within two months of release, at the latest, there will be another balance patch, guaranteed, because they don't have it right yet. Win stats posted earlier, if nothing else, demonstrate that.
They find new tactics and abuse those. There are zergs that can completely and utterly destroy every terran player you've lost to. Obviously there are. You know this, too.
Sure. There are players that have hundred-plus APM and never miss a larva spit and have a better grasp of what counters what and so on. I don't particularly care, though, 'cause I'm not that guy and never will be, not having twenty hours a week to practice and stuff.
How about trying to become like them by improving your game instead of complaining about the nature of the game?
Your attitude is ultimately defeatist, and ultimately useless for improving, because you are not blaming yourself. You are blaming the mechanics of the game for your loss. Therefore, you will not improve as much as you could.
Getting your shit pushed in over and over and over again, regardless of what you try and do, is not much of an impetus to practice. It is frustrating and pisses me off, and quite frankly my time is too valuable to be spent on things that are frustrating and piss me off. This is time I could be having sex, fer chrissakes.
It doesn't matter how much I out-macro them, or how high my APM is, or how low my unspent resources and Queen energy are, or how much creep I spread - all of which I've improved significantly on, and which do seem to make a significant difference in my other matches - if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!Perhaps this game isn't for you.
Edit: it can be frustrating, yes. But if you get that frustrated at getting stomped, and you will get stomped very frequently (that's the whole nature of the game), you just plain won't have fun.
The way to get better is to focus on yourself each game. Just try to find things that you want to try to do better for the next game. winning is very satisfying but dealing with losing without just getting frustrated at the game (or writing off everyone who beats you as abusing X "overpowered" tactic) is very important.
you know you can detonate banelings while they're burrowed at no penalty to damage. why bother unburrowing them, they might get shot.
because with auto unburrow you don't have to constantly watch them. Relying on manual explode enemies could pass right over if you're not quick
and they explode when they're killed. So if the enemy is a-moving, which they probably are, they'll walk over top, baneling will pop up in the middle, they'll all stop around it and kill it, they'll all explode
they dont do damage when killed.
if you burrow a ling a bit further than where the blings are you'll see the army coming and be able to detonate.
i'm almost positive banelings still explode upon death
They do. I just went into the unit tester to test this exact scenario, and it works just as i said. It's not quite as effective as a perfectly timed manual explode since you don't get a full surround, but they definitely pop and they definitely take units with them
terran has sci vessels (irradiate, shields and emp) - all of which are awesome
ghosts (cloak, lockdown, nuke) - all of which are awesome, lockdown especially so
medics (heal, blind, restore) - all of which are awesome (restore less so) - sort of on par with medivacs but lack of blind makes terran cloaking less useful
wraiths (cloak) - absolutely essential but i'll say they are the same (or worse than) banshees
edit: i forgot yamato! but it's also in sc2 so i guess we don't need to include it. whatever the case, terrans have far more than 1 useful caster.
I'm talking about useful casters. Ghosts were very, very rarely used in competitive play, and almost exclusively for nukes (occasionally lockdown had it's uses). Ghosts are now an integral part of a Terran army. Medics aren't considered 'caster' units per say, and the medivac takes over their role perfectly. Blind was quite literally never used, so that's a moot point. Again, cloak isn't a spell, and it's much better suited for the Banshee besides.
nope, not even close. rooting is nice, but nothing special compared to plague's damage and size. plague owned supply depots.
The radius of fungal growth isn't much smaller than plague. And yes, the rooting does make up for the damage of plague, but this is a subjective point so I won't delve into it.
im getting that from the facts. i agree that they are sort of useful. just no where near as useful as in broodwar. a few temps could hold off nearly unlimited terran infantry. that's just not the case at all in sc2.
Bio was pretty much never used in TvP anywho, so I'm not sure why it's effectiveness against Bio is really relevant. Like I said, storm isn't much weaker than it was, but is actually potentially stronger combined with force fields. It still wrecks bio and with feedback templar are almost always a good addition to a Protoss army. As far as I am aware, Blizzard has not in any way stated that they were reducing the effectiveness of spells, and it seems clear to me that they haven't. If you could put forth some more objective evidence supporting this claim it would be great; you are the only person I've seen that thinks spells have become somehow less useful.
if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!
have you tried a bling zing bust? have you tried mass mutas? i cant imagine that an ol drop is your only option.
a mass of mutas can actually take on a fairly large number of marines. more than youd think. you should try it. if you are really out macroing him and have map control, i would mass up mutas. they are super effective against pretty much everything.
since you have outmacroed your opponent, you should have more than enough to overpower rines, vikings and maybe even thors. and if you havent, just run and harass. when in doubt, mutas are always the answer.
While I usually detest getting involved in discussions such as this, I want to comment about whether spells in SC1 are better, worse, or equal to SC2. If we are going to do this, let's do it properly:
SC1 spells:
Protoss
Arbiter - Recall, Stasis Field
Corsair - Disruption Web
Dark Archon - Feedback, Mind Control, Maelstrom
High Templar - Psionic Storm, Hallucination
Getting down to the meat and potatoes, the only spells people tend to remember are the useful ones, and rightly so. You can't just compare similar spells to each other, but rather look at the bigger picture. Looking up and down that list, half of the spells in SC1 are useful where as almost all the spells in SC2 are viable.
Also, being as these are two different games with different unit types, things are going to be different. Psi Storm and EMP had to be altered to fit within the new engine. With quick casting in SC2, covering more area in spells in quicker time is much easier when compared to SC1.
To me this is a no brainer. 12 years of time to evolve spells gives the obvious advantage to SC2. Add in the new mechanics and spells become that much better. Spells like Force Field, Auto-Turret, Infested Terran, and Snipe are powerful because of quick casting. The units that possess the spells are also better, so the chance of the spells getting used increases. Players hardly ever used Queens, Medics (for their non-heal spells), Ghosts, or Dark Archons. Every unit on the SC2 list above is viable with the exceptions of the Mothership (cost) or Corruptor (although it can morph into the awesome ass Broodlord).
Hell, the fact that nukes are now useful, attainable, and viable after their damage nerf speaks volumes.
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Ah, thanks Dover, that pretty much sums up what I was trying to say exactly. Starcraft 2 has essentially no useless casters or even spells, a far cry from the original.
It can be frustrating, yes. But if you get that frustrated at getting stomped, and you will get stomped very frequently (that's the whole nature of the game), you just plain won't have fun.
The way to get better is to focus on yourself each game. Just try to find things that you want to try to do better for the next game. winning is very satisfying but dealing with losing without just getting frustrated at the game (or writing off everyone who beats you as abusing X "overpowered" tactic) is very important.
The thing that so resoundingly pisses me off about Terran Mech is that I can see myself getting better in pretty much every other match up, and if I lose, I generally have a good idea why.
terran has sci vessels (irradiate, shields and emp) - all of which are awesome
ghosts (cloak, lockdown, nuke) - all of which are awesome, lockdown especially so
medics (heal, blind, restore) - all of which are awesome (restore less so) - sort of on par with medivacs but lack of blind makes terran cloaking less useful
wraiths (cloak) - absolutely essential but i'll say they are the same (or worse than) banshees
edit: i forgot yamato! but it's also in sc2 so i guess we don't need to include it. whatever the case, terrans have far more than 1 useful caster.
I'm talking about useful casters. Ghosts were very, very rarely used in competitive play, and almost exclusively for nukes (occasionally lockdown had it's uses).
what? im guessing you never saw the lockdown video? competitive players used lockdown all the time. in fact i would say they used it more than emp or irradiate.
Ghosts are now an integral part of a Terran army.
they've always been integral in tvp or tvt.
Medics aren't considered 'caster' units per say, and the medivac takes over their role perfectly.
1) medics are a caster because they use mana and have spells. i dont know what that "per se" is supposed to add, but you're just factually incorrect.
2) medivacs dont take over their role perfectly because they cost more and require a starport to make. this means terrans cant push zerg as effectively and early as they could in broodwar. medivacs are different and better in some ways but worse in others. that's fine and i have no problem with them replacing medics. but to pretend a medic is not a useful caster is just dumb. they were essential in all broodwar games.
Blind was quite literally never used, so that's a moot point.
just not true at all. blind was used with nukes against detectors. just because you didnt use it doesnt mean it's not useful. i used it all the time.
Again, cloak isn't a spell, and it's much better suited for the Banshee besides.
im not sure why you are arguing against the facts. clock costs mana for all terran units. it is a spell. banshees are great, but they arent the finesse units that wraiths used to be.
nope, not even close. rooting is nice, but nothing special compared to plague's damage and size. plague owned supply depots.
The radius of fungal growth isn't much smaller than plague.
yes, it is. plague covered a 3x3 area. fungal covers what? 1.5 x 1.5? 2x2 maybe? that's either a 50% or 33% difference. it's much smaller.
And yes, the rooting does make up for the damage of plague, but this is a subjective point so I won't delve into it.
why would you think this? plague does more damage in 2 secs than fungal throughout its entire duration. this may be "subjective" but your position is just weird. it's like saying dung tastes better than ice cream.
im getting that from the facts. i agree that they are sort of useful. just no where near as useful as in broodwar. a few temps could hold off nearly unlimited terran infantry. that's just not the case at all in sc2.
Bio was pretty much never used in TvP anywho, so I'm not sure why it's effectiveness against Bio is really relevant. Like I said, storm isn't much weaker than it was, but is actually potentially stronger combined with force fields. It still wrecks bio and with feedback templar are almost always a good addition to a Protoss army. As far as I am aware, Blizzard has not in any way stated that they were reducing the effectiveness of spells, and it seems clear to me that they haven't. If you could put forth some more objective evidence supporting this claim it would be great; you are the only person I've seen that thinks spells have become somehow less useful.
whut? i have no idea what you are saying because so much of it is just wrong. are you saying that people dont use rines, bats, medics and ghosts on toss? im just confused. some of the most famous videos of sc are of tvp where bio was a heavy element of the terran player's offense and defense.
So, should I go ahead and uninstall the Beta? No point in keeping it right?
I uninstalled mine.
You can install the real game tho off Blizzard's servers, it's just locked. I assume you'll be able to key it with your pre-order or however else you choose to get it.
At any rate, it should bypass the "Put disc into computer, install" part.
if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!
have you tried a bling zing bust? have you tried mass mutas? i cant imagine that an ol drop is your only option.
a mass of mutas can actually take on a fairly large number of marines. more than youd think. you should try it. if you are really out macroing him and have map control, i would mass up mutas. they are super effective against pretty much everything.
Mass Muta can work okay if they haven't reached a critical mass of Thors/Vikings. Thors concern me far more than Marines - they can soak a lot of damage, and their splash can tear huge chunks out of your Muta ball.
if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!
have you tried a bling zing bust? have you tried mass mutas? i cant imagine that an ol drop is your only option.
a mass of mutas can actually take on a fairly large number of marines. more than youd think. you should try it. if you are really out macroing him and have map control, i would mass up mutas. they are super effective against pretty much everything.
since you have outmacroed your opponent, you should have more than enough to overpower rines, vikings and maybe even thors. and if you havent, just run and harass. when in doubt, mutas are always the answer.
I'm not going to say Terran is OP, but the things you mentioned are not even close to a counter to it. BLing busts get shut down before even getting close by tanks, and thors are pretty much designed around stomping mass mutas
Best tool a zerg has is exploiting mech immobility with creep speed, doom drops, and nydus networks. But this can be really hard on small maps. If you can catch tanks out of position with ultras though, oh boy does that feel good
if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!
have you tried a bling zing bust? have you tried mass mutas? i cant imagine that an ol drop is your only option.
a mass of mutas can actually take on a fairly large number of marines. more than youd think. you should try it. if you are really out macroing him and have map control, i would mass up mutas. they are super effective against pretty much everything.
Mass Muta can work okay if they haven't reached a critical mass of Thors/Vikings. Thors concern me far more than Marines - they can soak a lot of damage, and their splash can tear huge chunks out of your Muta ball.
But see - you're getting impatient if you're throwing a mass of one unit into a mass of another unit that is a direct counter to the unit you're sending in.
Like...yeah, breaking a terran who has his base, natural, and 3rd base lined with tanks + vikings is hard...but why do you need to break them immediately? Take a 5th, 6th, or 7th, tech to brood lords make sure your base is safe from harassment, and get armor/damage upgrades. WHen he tries to move out, waste his army, rebuild yours in five seconds thanks to larvae build up, and then own him.
Don't commit suicide if you don't have to...aka don't send in banelings (even 200 of them) if he has 24 tanks! cause there's no way you're going to break him. Bleed him dry.
So, Saturday night I go out with a couple friends for a White Castle run. They're in the beta and it sounds like the most amazing thing ever while all I can do is listen.
I come home and at about 3 AM I check my email and bam! Beta Invite. I download it, play it like crazy, get the hang of it and... the Beta ends.
Really Blizz? A beta invite with a day and half left to play? Oh well, back to the original for now.
if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!
have you tried a bling zing bust? have you tried mass mutas? i cant imagine that an ol drop is your only option.
a mass of mutas can actually take on a fairly large number of marines. more than youd think. you should try it. if you are really out macroing him and have map control, i would mass up mutas. they are super effective against pretty much everything.
Mass Muta can work okay if they haven't reached a critical mass of Thors/Vikings. Thors concern me far more than Marines - they can soak a lot of damage, and their splash can tear huge chunks out of your Muta ball.
But see - you're getting impatient if you're throwing a mass of one unit into a mass of another unit that is a direct counter to the unit you're sending in.
Like...yeah, breaking a terran who has his base, natural, and 3rd base lined with tanks + vikings is hard...but why do you need to break them immediately? Take a 5th, 6th, or 7th, tech to brood lords make sure your base is safe from harassment, and get armor/damage upgrades. WHen he tries to move out, waste his army, rebuild yours in five seconds thanks to larvae build up, and then own him.
Don't commit suicide if you don't have to...aka don't send in banelings (even 200 of them) if he has 24 tanks! cause there's no way you're going to break him. Bleed him dry.
Obviously. My general hope is to snipe tanks with Mutas and run Speedlings/Hydras in to bust and eat Thors. Depending on his Tank/Viking/Thor comp, though, it's pretty common to not get enough of the tanks dead to make a strong push viable.
Expos usually aren't as well protected, but I'm seeing more and more people get Fortresses rather than Orbital Commands on expos, which makes finishing them off irritating.
Air upgrades also feel like they take for-frakking-ever to research.
Whats this quick casting:? Whenever id try to shift cast force fields or something they would glitch and go at random times. Also sometimes the casting symbol is white, sometimes almost invisible and sometimes non existant... wtf?
edit: oh and i agree with the frustration when dealing with turtle terran. It seems like ill be patient for a little while, out macro them, harrass and cut there expos off.
But eventually ill be fed up, try and attack a few times, then hell roll out when im not at full strentgh and take a win.
StokedUp on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Gamertag(SSF4/MW2)StokedAidzzzSC2 ID Stoked.655 Uploaded SC2 Replays
what? im guessing you never saw the lockdown video? competitive players used lockdown all the time. in fact i would say they used it more than emp or irradiate.
I don't entirely disagree with some of your points but you are very, very, very wrong on this.
You didn't play BW or even watch a significant amount of pro games if you think that is true.
Dangerisk on
If what you say is true, the Shaolin and the Wu-Tang could be DANGERISK.
if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!
have you tried a bling zing bust? have you tried mass mutas? i cant imagine that an ol drop is your only option.
a mass of mutas can actually take on a fairly large number of marines. more than youd think. you should try it. if you are really out macroing him and have map control, i would mass up mutas. they are super effective against pretty much everything.
Mass Muta can work okay if they haven't reached a critical mass of Thors/Vikings. Thors concern me far more than Marines - they can soak a lot of damage, and their splash can tear huge chunks out of your Muta ball.
But see - you're getting impatient if you're throwing a mass of one unit into a mass of another unit that is a direct counter to the unit you're sending in.
Like...yeah, breaking a terran who has his base, natural, and 3rd base lined with tanks + vikings is hard...but why do you need to break them immediately? Take a 5th, 6th, or 7th, tech to brood lords make sure your base is safe from harassment, and get armor/damage upgrades. WHen he tries to move out, waste his army, rebuild yours in five seconds thanks to larvae build up, and then own him.
Don't commit suicide if you don't have to...aka don't send in banelings (even 200 of them) if he has 24 tanks! cause there's no way you're going to break him. Bleed him dry.
Obviously. My general hope is to snipe tanks with Mutas and run Speedlings/Hydras in to bust and eat Thors. Depending on his Tank/Viking/Thor comp, though, it's pretty common to not get enough of the tanks dead to make a strong push viable.
Expos usually aren't as well protected, but I'm seeing more and more people get Fortresses rather than Orbital Commands on expos, which makes finishing them off irritating.
Air upgrades also feel like they take for-frakking-ever to research.
Hahah I know I said earlier I didn't care to see the idra game, but I watched it anyway just now, as well as the followup game vs. Masq. LOL at no talk the second game, idra going for what is cheese, then failing. Why did idra suicide his lings on that bunker???? DERP
While I usually detest getting involved in discussions such as this, I want to comment about whether spells in SC1 are better, worse, or equal to SC2. If we are going to do this, let's do it properly:
SC1 spells:
Protoss
Arbiter - Recall, Stasis Field
Corsair - Disruption Web
Dark Archon - Feedback, Mind Control, Maelstrom
High Templar - Psionic Storm, Hallucination
Getting down to the meat and potatoes, the only spells people tend to remember are the useful ones, and rightly so. You can't just compare similar spells to each other, but rather look at the bigger picture. Looking up and down that list, half of the spells in SC1 are useful where as almost all the spells in SC2 are viable.
Also, being as these are two different games with different unit types, things are going to be different. Psi Storm and EMP had to be altered to fit within the new engine. With quick casting in SC2, covering more area in spells in quicker time is much easier when compared to SC1.
To me this is a no brainer. 12 years of time to evolve spells gives the obvious advantage to SC2. Add in the new mechanics and spells become that much better. Spells like Force Field, Auto-Turret, Infested Terran, and Snipe are powerful because of quick casting. The units that possess the spells are also better, so the chance of the spells getting used increases. Players hardly ever used Queens, Medics (for their non-heal spells), Ghosts, or Dark Archons. Every unit on the SC2 list above is viable with the exceptions of the Mothership (cost) or Corruptor (although it can morph into the awesome ass Broodlord).
Hell, the fact that nukes are now useful, attainable, and viable after their damage nerf speaks volumes.
for someone who took the time to list out all the spells, i find it strange that you didnt even bother to actually, you know, compare them. ;p
sc1 spells are almost all universally better than their sc2 counterparts.
for some, like fungal, we can pretend that the rooting is different enough that it's just a different spell than plague. but for others, like corruption, disruption web is just better. it's aoe and works on units too.
and your point actually goes back to what i was saying - the units are better in sc2. it's just that their spells are worse. that's why i feel macro is more useful than micro in sc2.
Posts
because with auto unburrow you don't have to constantly watch them. Relying on manual explode enemies could pass right over if you're not quick
and they explode when they're killed. So if the enemy is a-moving, which they probably are, they'll walk over top, baneling will pop up in the middle, they'll all stop around it and kill it, they'll all explode
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
yeah, but with auto-unburrow you can do other things while they run into your mines. i have used burrowed banelings to explode at my ramp to ruin bio ball before, though.
maybe this is my answer to a terran friend of mine, his timing pushes are incredible. i am always too busy droning up whenever he feels he should make a push with rines and rauders.
People with your attitude are never in the top tournaments.
I have absolutely no desire to play Starcraft (or any game) on that level of organized competition. People that do are not entitled to complete control of the narrative.
Sometimes, the game really is cocked up. Look at the amount of tuning Roaches and Marauders took to get right. Within two months of release, at the latest, there will be another balance patch, guaranteed, because they don't have it right yet. Win stats posted earlier, if nothing else, demonstrate that.
Sure. There are players that have hundred-plus APM and never miss a larva spit and have a better grasp of what counters what and so on. I don't particularly care, though, 'cause I'm not that guy and never will be, not having twenty hours a week to practice and stuff.
Getting your shit pushed in over and over and over again, regardless of what you try and do, is not much of an impetus to practice. It is frustrating and pisses me off, and quite frankly my time is too valuable to be spent on things that are frustrating and piss me off. This is time I could be having sex, fer chrissakes.
It doesn't matter how much I out-macro them, or how high my APM is, or how low my unspent resources and Queen energy are, or how much creep I spread - all of which I've improved significantly on, and which do seem to make a significant difference in my other matches - if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!
they dont do damage when killed.
if you burrow a ling a bit further than where the blings are you'll see the army coming and be able to detonate.
question that goes with that: can burrowed things be gravity beamed?
i'm almost positive banelings still explode upon death
Sometimes, the game really is cocked up. Look at the amount of tuning Roaches and Marauders took to get right. Within two months of release, at the latest, there will be another balance patch, guaranteed, because they don't have it right yet. Win stats posted earlier, if nothing else, demonstrate that.
Sure. There are players that have hundred-plus APM and never miss a larva spit and have a better grasp of what counters what and so on. I don't particularly care, though, 'cause I'm not that guy and never will be, not having twenty hours a week to practice and stuff.
Getting your shit pushed in over and over and over again, regardless of what you try and do, is not much of an impetus to practice. It is frustrating and pisses me off, and quite frankly my time is too valuable to be spent on things that are frustrating and piss me off. This is time I could be having sex, fer chrissakes.
It doesn't matter how much I out-macro them, or how high my APM is, or how low my unspent resources and Queen energy are, or how much creep I spread - all of which I've improved significantly on, and which do seem to make a significant difference in my other matches - if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!
You should come hang out in a lobby with some of us, it's low pressure, really fun, and after watching you play we can help you get better.
yes, they do
over by WASD since most of the hotkeys and the control groups are on the left side of the keyboard.
Sometimes, the game really is cocked up. Look at the amount of tuning Roaches and Marauders took to get right. Within two months of release, at the latest, there will be another balance patch, guaranteed, because they don't have it right yet. Win stats posted earlier, if nothing else, demonstrate that.
Sure. There are players that have hundred-plus APM and never miss a larva spit and have a better grasp of what counters what and so on. I don't particularly care, though, 'cause I'm not that guy and never will be, not having twenty hours a week to practice and stuff.
Getting your shit pushed in over and over and over again, regardless of what you try and do, is not much of an impetus to practice. It is frustrating and pisses me off, and quite frankly my time is too valuable to be spent on things that are frustrating and piss me off. This is time I could be having sex, fer chrissakes.
It doesn't matter how much I out-macro them, or how high my APM is, or how low my unspent resources and Queen energy are, or how much creep I spread - all of which I've improved significantly on, and which do seem to make a significant difference in my other matches - if my only viable counter is an all-in OL drop on their (very well-protected, since they know it's their only real vulnerability) main. If I don't win on that drop I will not have enough time to get a defense up before they roll out and up all four of my expansions. Having a single viable counter is not balance! It is bullshit that depends on luck!Perhaps this game isn't for you.
Edit: it can be frustrating, yes. But if you get that frustrated at getting stomped, and you will get stomped very frequently (that's the whole nature of the game), you just plain won't have fun.
The way to get better is to focus on yourself each game. Just try to find things that you want to try to do better for the next game. winning is very satisfying but dealing with losing without just getting frustrated at the game (or writing off everyone who beats you as abusing X "overpowered" tactic) is very important.
I've played SF4 like five times, so no.
Gamertag(SSF4/MW2)StokedAidzzzSC2 ID Stoked.655
Uploaded SC2 Replays
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
They do. I just went into the unit tester to test this exact scenario, and it works just as i said. It's not quite as effective as a perfectly timed manual explode since you don't get a full surround, but they definitely pop and they definitely take units with them
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
I'm talking about useful casters. Ghosts were very, very rarely used in competitive play, and almost exclusively for nukes (occasionally lockdown had it's uses). Ghosts are now an integral part of a Terran army. Medics aren't considered 'caster' units per say, and the medivac takes over their role perfectly. Blind was quite literally never used, so that's a moot point. Again, cloak isn't a spell, and it's much better suited for the Banshee besides.
The radius of fungal growth isn't much smaller than plague. And yes, the rooting does make up for the damage of plague, but this is a subjective point so I won't delve into it.
Bio was pretty much never used in TvP anywho, so I'm not sure why it's effectiveness against Bio is really relevant. Like I said, storm isn't much weaker than it was, but is actually potentially stronger combined with force fields. It still wrecks bio and with feedback templar are almost always a good addition to a Protoss army. As far as I am aware, Blizzard has not in any way stated that they were reducing the effectiveness of spells, and it seems clear to me that they haven't. If you could put forth some more objective evidence supporting this claim it would be great; you are the only person I've seen that thinks spells have become somehow less useful.
have you tried a bling zing bust? have you tried mass mutas? i cant imagine that an ol drop is your only option.
a mass of mutas can actually take on a fairly large number of marines. more than youd think. you should try it. if you are really out macroing him and have map control, i would mass up mutas. they are super effective against pretty much everything.
since you have outmacroed your opponent, you should have more than enough to overpower rines, vikings and maybe even thors. and if you havent, just run and harass. when in doubt, mutas are always the answer.
SC1 spells:
Protoss
Arbiter - Recall, Stasis Field
Corsair - Disruption Web
Dark Archon - Feedback, Mind Control, Maelstrom
High Templar - Psionic Storm, Hallucination
Zerg
Defiler - Consume, Dark Swarm, Plague
Queen - Parasite, Spawn Broodling, Ensnare
Terran
Battlecruiser - Yamato Gun
Ghost - Cloak, Lockdown
Medic - Heal, Restoration, Optical Flare
Science Vessel - Defensive Matrix, Irradiate, EMP Shockwave
Wraith - Cloak
SC2 spells:
Protoss
Mothership - Mass Recall, Vortex
Sentry - Hallucination, Guardian Shield, Force Field
High Templar - Psionic Storm, Feedback
Phoenix - Graviton Beam
Zerg
Infestor - Fungal Growth, Neural Parasite, Infested Terran
Queen - Creep Tumor, Transfusion
Overseer - Changeling
Corruptor - Corruption
Terran
Battlecruiser - Yamato Gun
Ghost - Cloak, Snipe, Emp Round
Medivac - Heal
Thor - 250mm Strike Cannons
Raven - Point Defense Drone, Auto-Turret, Heat Seeking Missle
Banshee - Cloak
Getting down to the meat and potatoes, the only spells people tend to remember are the useful ones, and rightly so. You can't just compare similar spells to each other, but rather look at the bigger picture. Looking up and down that list, half of the spells in SC1 are useful where as almost all the spells in SC2 are viable.
Also, being as these are two different games with different unit types, things are going to be different. Psi Storm and EMP had to be altered to fit within the new engine. With quick casting in SC2, covering more area in spells in quicker time is much easier when compared to SC1.
To me this is a no brainer. 12 years of time to evolve spells gives the obvious advantage to SC2. Add in the new mechanics and spells become that much better. Spells like Force Field, Auto-Turret, Infested Terran, and Snipe are powerful because of quick casting. The units that possess the spells are also better, so the chance of the spells getting used increases. Players hardly ever used Queens, Medics (for their non-heal spells), Ghosts, or Dark Archons. Every unit on the SC2 list above is viable with the exceptions of the Mothership (cost) or Corruptor (although it can morph into the awesome ass Broodlord).
Hell, the fact that nukes are now useful, attainable, and viable after their damage nerf speaks volumes.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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Now the wait begins for my pre-order to ship.
Ah, thanks Dover, that pretty much sums up what I was trying to say exactly. Starcraft 2 has essentially no useless casters or even spells, a far cry from the original.
So, should I go ahead and uninstall the Beta? No point in keeping it right?
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The thing that so resoundingly pisses me off about Terran Mech is that I can see myself getting better in pretty much every other match up, and if I lose, I generally have a good idea why.
what? im guessing you never saw the lockdown video? competitive players used lockdown all the time. in fact i would say they used it more than emp or irradiate.
they've always been integral in tvp or tvt.
1) medics are a caster because they use mana and have spells. i dont know what that "per se" is supposed to add, but you're just factually incorrect.
2) medivacs dont take over their role perfectly because they cost more and require a starport to make. this means terrans cant push zerg as effectively and early as they could in broodwar. medivacs are different and better in some ways but worse in others. that's fine and i have no problem with them replacing medics. but to pretend a medic is not a useful caster is just dumb. they were essential in all broodwar games.
just not true at all. blind was used with nukes against detectors. just because you didnt use it doesnt mean it's not useful. i used it all the time.
im not sure why you are arguing against the facts. clock costs mana for all terran units. it is a spell. banshees are great, but they arent the finesse units that wraiths used to be.
yes, it is. plague covered a 3x3 area. fungal covers what? 1.5 x 1.5? 2x2 maybe? that's either a 50% or 33% difference. it's much smaller.
why would you think this? plague does more damage in 2 secs than fungal throughout its entire duration. this may be "subjective" but your position is just weird. it's like saying dung tastes better than ice cream.
whut? i have no idea what you are saying because so much of it is just wrong. are you saying that people dont use rines, bats, medics and ghosts on toss? im just confused. some of the most famous videos of sc are of tvp where bio was a heavy element of the terran player's offense and defense.
I uninstalled mine.
You can install the real game tho off Blizzard's servers, it's just locked. I assume you'll be able to key it with your pre-order or however else you choose to get it.
At any rate, it should bypass the "Put disc into computer, install" part.
Noooo, we had just gotten to know each other!!!
I was mid game against a terran. I was feeling so damn confident since i really got to refine my 2 gate build (sortof).
Do you guys constantly make workers or do you make units as a higher priority then make workers?
Cause in a lot of games illl have like 80 probes and the other guy will have like 45...
Gamertag(SSF4/MW2)StokedAidzzzSC2 ID Stoked.655
Uploaded SC2 Replays
I'm not going to say Terran is OP, but the things you mentioned are not even close to a counter to it. BLing busts get shut down before even getting close by tanks, and thors are pretty much designed around stomping mass mutas
Best tool a zerg has is exploiting mech immobility with creep speed, doom drops, and nydus networks. But this can be really hard on small maps. If you can catch tanks out of position with ultras though, oh boy does that feel good
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELhtXtnV3pg&feature=related
At 2:36 on, when the Marine is suiting up. What's the name of that music track? I can't find it on the Starcraft II soundtrack anywhere.
But see - you're getting impatient if you're throwing a mass of one unit into a mass of another unit that is a direct counter to the unit you're sending in.
Like...yeah, breaking a terran who has his base, natural, and 3rd base lined with tanks + vikings is hard...but why do you need to break them immediately? Take a 5th, 6th, or 7th, tech to brood lords make sure your base is safe from harassment, and get armor/damage upgrades. WHen he tries to move out, waste his army, rebuild yours in five seconds thanks to larvae build up, and then own him.
Don't commit suicide if you don't have to...aka don't send in banelings (even 200 of them) if he has 24 tanks! cause there's no way you're going to break him. Bleed him dry.
I come home and at about 3 AM I check my email and bam! Beta Invite. I download it, play it like crazy, get the hang of it and... the Beta ends.
Really Blizz? A beta invite with a day and half left to play? Oh well, back to the original for now.
PSN: ShinyRedKnight Xbox Live: ShinyRedKnight
Rematches, tons of them, next week por favor. I must learn!
I ordered the Collector's Edition about 5 minutes ago lol.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Obviously. My general hope is to snipe tanks with Mutas and run Speedlings/Hydras in to bust and eat Thors. Depending on his Tank/Viking/Thor comp, though, it's pretty common to not get enough of the tanks dead to make a strong push viable.
Expos usually aren't as well protected, but I'm seeing more and more people get Fortresses rather than Orbital Commands on expos, which makes finishing them off irritating.
Air upgrades also feel like they take for-frakking-ever to research.
Whats this quick casting:? Whenever id try to shift cast force fields or something they would glitch and go at random times. Also sometimes the casting symbol is white, sometimes almost invisible and sometimes non existant... wtf?
edit: oh and i agree with the frustration when dealing with turtle terran. It seems like ill be patient for a little while, out macro them, harrass and cut there expos off.
But eventually ill be fed up, try and attack a few times, then hell roll out when im not at full strentgh and take a win.
Gamertag(SSF4/MW2)StokedAidzzzSC2 ID Stoked.655
Uploaded SC2 Replays
I don't entirely disagree with some of your points but you are very, very, very wrong on this.
You didn't play BW or even watch a significant amount of pro games if you think that is true.
bluh bluh bluh post replays
For a while there I thought he's being suited into a SCV. That would have been funny.
sad face
for someone who took the time to list out all the spells, i find it strange that you didnt even bother to actually, you know, compare them. ;p
sc1 spells are almost all universally better than their sc2 counterparts.
for some, like fungal, we can pretend that the rooting is different enough that it's just a different spell than plague. but for others, like corruption, disruption web is just better. it's aoe and works on units too.
and your point actually goes back to what i was saying - the units are better in sc2. it's just that their spells are worse. that's why i feel macro is more useful than micro in sc2.