1) Lachrymite's gold/blue Carolingian Cross
2) Viva Carolingia!
3) Pagan superpower!
4) Screw the Mongols. I like the balance of power between the Pagan Finns and Muslim Zenata.
It's like Shalmelo read my mind.
Also, potential Christian Egyptian flag incoming tomorrow.
It's the Crusader's Cross, potent (per the cross for the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem), in Frankish colors (per the nation's new ruling class's heritage).
In the center is an escutcheon charged with Saint Catherine's Wheel and an embattled chief, Or. Saint Catherine is intimately tied to Alexandria, the capital of Christian Egypt, and is revered as a great converter of the unbelievers (though, in her day, it was pagans she was converting, not muslims). Her body was placed to rest on Mount Sinai, which (IIRC) falls within the boundaries of Christian Egypt, and she was a particularly popular saint during the mid- to late-Middle Ages.
The embattled chief is emblematic of the Egyptian crown, and the fact that it is still a country under siege from numerous enemies.
Thoughts? General direction, parts of it you'd like to see cleaned up, etc.?
EDIT:
Alternative, colors-reversed version:
Might be too close to the Carolingian flag, though.
Without taking care of Valencia yet, there's Iberia.
EDIT: Thanks Darian, making Valencia now. It also should be noted that I really need to edit the missions, Castille declared war on me immediately as Leon. :P
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I think a combination of Space Coyote's Coptic Cross and Elvenshae's Crusader's Cross + Catherine's Wheel works pretty well for the area. Technically the crusader's cross was given to the crusaders by the pope (and fairly historically, our first crusade went and liberated Jerusalem first under Saint Henri).
Catherine's story works well for tying the area to Alexandria and the relatively easy conversions that have spread forth from there. Due to the copious amounts of heretics that have also shown up in Alexandria - and the neighboring provinces - having Catherine's wheel on a Coptic Cross may work well.
Elevenshae's looks much crisper (so I'm sure my suggestion has plenty of room for improved visuals), but something like
Otherwise the central cross potent with the crowned Escutcheon would probably work fine.
I can probably throw some things together for Valencia in a little bit. My folder actually already has a flag for Valencia for some reason (just the alternating red and yellow stripes of Darian's version of the COA). If you're looking for an alternate version (around until the 1700s, but superceded by the more famous yellow and red stripes):
Without taking care of Valencia yet, there's Iberia.
EDIT: Thanks Darian, making Valencia now. It also should be noted that I really need to edit the missions, Castille declared war on me immediately as Leon. :P
Sort of. They wanted Andalucia. Speaking of, I need to remove either the Andalucian or Lisbon CoT as Leon starts with both. Probably Lisbon, or I might remove them both and just move it to Badajoz (your capital for them).
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I blame my writing of Valencia on the map even though it's more Catalonia (which is defined as Catalunya). I could still throw together a Valencia, Cordoba and ...something in León - probably Algarve) so they have minors to release/revolter options like Scotland and England.
[edit] Also, it's Flanders that owns Mallorca...if that impacts whatever you're doing with it.
For tomorrow: I'm doing Italy, so I think Romagna would be a good thing to have. I'll probably do Greece/Anatolia too, so... I need something for the Aegean Islands. I kind of want to go for a pure re-born classical Greece for them? Just because it would be cool. Or maybe save that for a nationalist movement in Vicky/HoI.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I blame my writing of Valencia on the map even though it's more Catalonia (which is defined as Catalunya). I could still throw together a Valencia, Cordoba and ...something in León - probably Algarve) so they have minors to release/revolter options like Scotland and England.
[edit] Also, it's Flanders that owns Mallorca...if that impacts whatever you're doing with it.
I just gave Malorca to Castille. If you want to keep creating and e-mailing me minors I just have to edit the excel file and tag a province or two as cores, I'm fine with that.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I'm not sure about the four smaller crosses. It's not a bad idea though, any more historical experty people want to comment?
The four smaller crosses were present on the Crusader's Cross - they're supposed to represent, alternatively, the four gospels or the four directions in which Christ's word was spread. (C.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_Cross). In my version, I made all of the crosses potent, but that might might it a little too busy. Would it look better if the four smaller crosses were simplified?
The only reason I'd want to stay away from the Coptic cross is because the Coptic church is largely separate from the Roman / Latin church, which the Crusaders represented. If it's a Crusader state, it would, I think, be ruled at least by Latin Catholics, rather than Coptic Catholics.
If we are going the Coptic Cross route, however, I really like Space Coyote's Coptic Cross and Wheel - though I might shrink the cross a little more so that it actually forms the N, S, E, and W spokes of the wheel, rather than piercing the wheel, just to see what it looks like.
I'm not sure about the four smaller crosses. It's not a bad idea though, any more historical experty people want to comment?
The four smaller crosses were present on the Crusader's Cross - they're supposed to represent, alternatively, the four gospels or the four directions in which Christ's word was spread. (C.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_Cross). In my version, I made all of the crosses potent, but that might might it a little too busy. Would it look better if the four smaller crosses were simplified?
The only reason I'd want to stay away from the Coptic cross is because the Coptic church is largely separate from the Roman / Latin church, which the Crusaders represented. If it's a Crusader state, it would, I think, be ruled at least by Latin Catholics, rather than Coptic Catholics.
If we are going the Coptic Cross route, however, I really like Space Coyote's Coptic Cross and Wheel - though I might shrink the cross a little more so that it actually forms the N, S, E, and W spokes of the wheel, rather than piercing the wheel, just to see what it looks like.
I assumed that the French would co-opt the Coptic movement to form a Christian Egypt, which is a little bit of artistic license on my part.
You could have a Crusader cross in a Coptic style:
Or the cross inside the wheel as you suggested:
Or both together, but that might be a bit too busy:
For tomorrow: I'm doing Italy, so I think Romagna would be a good thing to have. I'll probably do Greece/Anatolia too, so... I need something for the Aegean Islands. I kind of want to go for a pure re-born classical Greece for them? Just because it would be cool. Or maybe save that for a nationalist movement in Vicky/HoI.
I would rename the aegean islands after their capital, in the style of other Byzantine successor states e.g. Empire of Nicaea, Despotate of Epirus (great name).
I'm not sure about the four smaller crosses. It's not a bad idea though, any more historical experty people want to comment?
The four smaller crosses were present on the Crusader's Cross - they're supposed to represent, alternatively, the four gospels or the four directions in which Christ's word was spread. (C.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_Cross). In my version, I made all of the crosses potent, but that might might it a little too busy. Would it look better if the four smaller crosses were simplified?
The only reason I'd want to stay away from the Coptic cross is because the Coptic church is largely separate from the Roman / Latin church, which the Crusaders represented. If it's a Crusader state, it would, I think, be ruled at least by Latin Catholics, rather than Coptic Catholics.
If we are going the Coptic Cross route, however, I really like Space Coyote's Coptic Cross and Wheel - though I might shrink the cross a little more so that it actually forms the N, S, E, and W spokes of the wheel, rather than piercing the wheel, just to see what it looks like.
I assumed that the French would co-opt the Coptic movement to form a Christian Egypt, which is a little bit of artistic license on my part.
You could have a Crusader cross in a Coptic style:
Or the cross inside the wheel as you suggested:
Or both together, but that might be a bit too busy:
Eh, it's a reasonable assumption! Plus, there's something just so ornately beautiful about that particular Coptic cross. I like all your reworks, but I think I like the Cross-in-Wheel version the best. The combo is prettier, but probably too busy compared to the other flags we're using.
Cross of Jerusalem (Crusader's Cross), Coptic Cross, Escutcheoned Wheel and Embattled Chief on a blue field (Alexandria's ties to the Med), all quartered with the flag of Vermandois (the ruling house).
Or, without the escutcheon:
Or, with a simplified (non-potent) Crusader Cross (available escutcheoned or not):
Leon has a historic coat of arms, but Egypt doesn't and since all of the non-Muslim rulers basically existed before the use of actual flags and heradlry...there's quite a bit of leeway in creating their flag.
Did they have a flag while a province of Byzantium prior to the Arab conquest?
1) Stylized combination of Vermandois and Valois
2) We are Burgundy!
I don't know how feasible it is, but an alternative event chain for one of the other minors to form France might be nice, just to give us a potential major rival. If we have our capital in Paris, the existing event chains probably won't be much use.
3) Two Finlands
Though I don't know how viable a Pagan superpower would be, unless we given them a very easy path to westernization / catholicism.
4) The easiest way out would be to leave the rest of the world as-is, though I'm not sure how viable that will leave the golden horde, without their European-ish holdings.
It's the Crusader's Cross, potent (per the cross for the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem), in Frankish colors (per the nation's new ruling class's heritage).
In the center is an escutcheon charged with Saint Catherine's Wheel and an embattled chief, Or. Saint Catherine is intimately tied to Alexandria, the capital of Christian Egypt, and is revered as a great converter of the unbelievers (though, in her day, it was pagans she was converting, not muslims). Her body was placed to rest on Mount Sinai, which (IIRC) falls within the boundaries of Christian Egypt, and she was a particularly popular saint during the mid- to late-Middle Ages.
The embattled chief is emblematic of the Egyptian crown, and the fact that it is still a country under siege from numerous enemies.
Thoughts? General direction, parts of it you'd like to see cleaned up, etc.?
EDIT:
Alternative, colors-reversed version:
Might be too close to the Carolingian flag, though.
Sorry for the spate of messages (catching up) I like the original with the wheel and Catherine's chariot. A Latin Church in Alexandria would _have_ to adopt some of the local customs. This is pre-reformation so the liturgies of the West aren't yet fixed. That's an artifact of the Latin Church reacting to Luther. Yes, the first wave would probably want to import the Frankish liturgy but they couldn't attempt to impose it. What you'll probably have is a Syrian/Byzantine liturgy (especially since Damascus is a friendly state) with chapels that are more French for the nobility. That being said the Crusaders did readily adopt eastern styles afterward...for example the Cross of St. George the Dragonslayer which gave England its flag.
One final thought before I blow out...Egypt will now probably have serious religion events (maybe modeled on Spain???). While the Coptic Church formed a serious minority the majority of the population was Muslim. One of the advantages is that there are probably serious portions of the population in this time which could be considered crypto-copt.
So something I'd like the historically aware types to think about: what kinds of things would an Arab Catholic State (they have Church Supremacy and everything) in southwest Iberia be doing? I need to write some missions/decisions for them later and it's worth brainstorming. Most of the others I can just give the default missions of that area to, but I want to customize some of the potential major powers (and I'm going to edit Morocco). So Leon, Egypt, Karelia are probably the three major targets.
Karelia probably needs a decision to become Christian unless we want to see how the Pagans can do.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
What I have labelled Cretian Greece is actually Cibyrrhaeot Greece (i.e. Greece originating from Rhodes; the dark brown color). Epirus is light green (and technically no longer corresponds to historic Epirus, and would be better named Crete); the Aegean Islands are pink (and also have significant holdings in the Caucasus).
In game Naxos is one province corresponding with Euboea and Naxos (the two islands off the coast off of Athens). If you're looking for something more classical, Smyrna or Ionian Greece would work better for the Aegean Islands (as they correspond with the two provinces held in what would be Turkey).
Leon has a historic coat of arms, but Egypt doesn't and since all of the non-Muslim rulers basically existed before the use of actual flags and heradlry...there's quite a bit of leeway in creating their flag.
Did they have a flag while a province of Byzantium prior to the Arab conquest?
Heraldic symbolism and symbols of nationalism were incredibly rare before the 1200s. The use of a flag to represent culture or nationality came in the 1700s. Unfortunately, Byzantium lost control of Egypt long before then. Much of the in-game heraldry is generated in reverse - i.e. taking the heraldry for Vermandois in 1300 and applying it retroactively to 1066.
I haven't seen an actual list of minors you need, but I should point out a few things (particularly if you're working from my map) ...and then I'll list off what I'm making as minors/fill-in and then you can potentially stop me if you've got it covered:
(unexciting province numbers lie within)
Austria/Italy:
+Carinthia is Kärnten in German; in vanilla EU3 it's covered by Styria (they also control the equivalent to Thuringia). Unfortunately they're a bit south of actual Carinthia. In-game Aquileia corresponds closely with our Carinthia, although Austria's Görz or Styria could also substitute (although Styria really applies to Steiermark). 111 - CK's correspondence is close to Friuli, 129 - Krain, 1768 - Lienz and 1769 - Görz, although Italy controls the equivalence to Görz in the CK map.
+Austria controls Steiermark (132) and Kärnten (128) and should probably be given Vienna (134 - Wien) held by Poland). This would leave a lone Norwegian Ostmarch (1770) to the North which would probably be best in Bohemia's hands (to make their lands contiguous).
+Burgundy owns Salzburg (76).
+Normandy owns Tyrol (73 - Tirol).
+Poland owns Brescia (107), which is probably best given to Milan or Ferrara).
+Unlabelled Orange is Livorno (corresponding to predefined Pisa).
+Light blue is labelled Lombardia (104) on the map, but the equivalent EU3 country is Milan.
Ridiculous East/Central Germany:
+Lebus/Lubusz owns Neumark (49)
+Scotland owns the equivalent of Brandenburg (51 - Ruppin, 1759 - Potsdam (HTTT only), 50 - Brandenburg).
+Poland owns the equivalent of Anhalt (52 - Altmark) as well as Lower Bavaria (and the Palatinate).
+Carinthia (Kärnten) owns a pseudo-Thuringia (58 - Anhalt, 62 - Leipzig, 63 - Thüringen (labelled as Erfurt in the files)).
+Norway owns a pseudo-Saxony (61 - Dresden, 59 -Meissen, 1763 - Niederlausitz, 60 - Oberlausitz)
+Sicily (Naples) owns Erz (1771) - nominally part of Saxony or Bohemia, now within the Czech Republic.
Southern Germany:
+Italy owns Munich/München (65) - the historical heart of Bavaria.
+Ulm corresponds with the actual Würtemberg (69 and 70)
+Württemberg covers Ansbach (71 - Leiningen) and splits Mainz (78 - Pfalz)
+Sicily (Naples) owns Baden (74) (near Breisgau)
+Schwaben is all alone (68) next to fractured Bavaria.
+Bern (165) and Schwyz (166) are the historical antecedents to Switzerland, I can make a separate Bern if you want, but it's probably best to put them together as a decentralized Switzerland
For missing states, revolters and releasable countries, I can put files together for:
+Oberbayern (Upper Bavaria/Munich), Schwaben (Swabia), Slovenia and/or Görz, Breisgau, possibly Lebus for Germany.
+Romagna, possibly Apulia/Puglia and possibly Roma for Italy
+Valencia, Algarve, possibly Cantabria and Cordoba for Spain
+Languedoc for France (I'm surprised it's not there already, they have everything else).
+Jutland (Jylland), Scania (Skane) and ...hopefully something else for Scandinavia.
(let me know if any of these are made already or if there's something you'd rather have)
I may be falling in love with Rex, my wife might object, but I love the detailed coverage. My expertise lies more with church history though so I'll try to cover Bum's question.
With _Arab_ rulers the result might have been something more tolerant. Not because the Arab's were somehow more tolerant, but the stresses caused by fear of crypto-Muslims would be lessened. Outside of that Spain was and currently has significant influence from the left overs of Arab culture. Where the rulers aren't Arab I can't imagine our Spain would be much different outside of not developing a central state quite as quickly and being under the influence of an enlarged New Roman Empire and a Burgundian state that extends below the Pyrenees (by the way have we finalized the borders for the Empire???). That being said most of the rulers are Frankish like the historical situation, yes? I didn't take any peeks. I think there would be significant pressure (as there was historically) to unify the Spanish kingdoms and provide a counter-point to a significant threat to the north.
* Some further notes on Germany now that I have Rex's detailed analysis. I might suggest an allied (to Scotland) Brandenburg rather than the ownership that's shown now.
* Is Bavaria gone completely then? It was a traditional powerhouse. Can we somehow create a decentralized state of Bavaria? CK doesn't handle the effects of geography and culture very well and Bavaria (along with Venice) may be a victim of that.
* Poland seems to be the new Brandenburg (far flung significant holdings in the empire) and it might be easier to make it such so that it has access to unification events.
* Saxony (per Bavaria) might be better off as an ally of Norway or a vassal.
Romagna
Lappland
Karelia
Egypt
Need to make some final choices in Greece
Not sure what to call Zenatan Persia/Iraq (Babylon? :P)
I haven't taken a good look at France or Germany.
Any additional minors would be appreciated. If you can justify some Swedish minors into existence, that would be extremely helpful or Sweden is just going to get +5 decentrilization.
Generally speaking, I'm trying to keep things contiguous. So I'll probably release both Genoa and Venice as merchant republics (and hopefully preserve their trade leagues). And things like Normandy's various random possessions will be removed. I might give them an extra province in France in exchange.
I'm going to move the Pope back to Rome and see if I can make Portugal the Papal Controller.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
* Some further notes on Germany now that I have Rex's detailed analysis. I might suggest an allied (to Scotland) Brandenburg rather than the ownership that's shown now.
* Is Bavaria gone completely then? It was a traditional powerhouse. Can we somehow create a decentralized state of Bavaria? CK doesn't handle the effects of geography and culture very well and Bavaria (along with Venice) may be a victim of that.
* Poland seems to be the new Brandenburg (far flung significant holdings in the empire) and it might be easier to make it such so that it has access to unification events.
* Saxony (per Bavaria) might be better off as an ally of Norway or a vassal.
The historic Bavaria of this time period is actually split between a Polish Bavaria-Bohemia, Sicilian (Neapolitan) Munich and independent Swabia.
The Bavaria/Bohemia controlled by Poland consists of:
Bamberg (66) - part of Würzburg in EU3
Franken (67) - The Palatinate in EU3 (eventually part of Bavaria)
Oberpfalz (1757) - Bavaria
Sudeten (267 - Plsen) - Bohemia/Bavaria (...this province basically corresponds to a borderland, like Erz)
Bohemia (266) - ...Bohemia (never mind that Bohemia doesn't control Bohemia in my map)
If you'd like to learn a bit more about why translating CK's map into EU3 is sort of ridiculous (complete with picture):
My EU3 map is made with the EU3 map overlaid and warped to fit the CK map. This works well for Britain, France and Spain, but deteriorates as you move east (the Caspian sea doesn't match up and by that point I cropped the map). Generally lands in the west fit better than lands in the east.
But the CK and EU3 borders really don't match up except in rare cases, anyway. For example take Bohemia's lands:
(I've marked the provinces I gave to Bohemia in my map with yellow circles)
Bohemia owns Bayern, Salzburg, and Passau in the west and Ostrava and Trencin in the east (with Moravia in the middle held by Norway). But the only province that is even named the same is Salzburg, and Salzburg in CK is about 3 times as big as Salzburg in EU3. In my EU3 map Bohemia has Niederbayern and Linz in the west and then Moravia and Ersekujvar in the east (with Ostmarch held by Norway).
And that is going to end up messed up however you slice it (there is one province separating what is essentially Bavaria (Passau) from what is essentially Slovakia. In EU3 this same distance is now separated by Linz and Wien (or Linz and Wien/Ostmarch if you have HTTT).
The map designs fit disparate time periods. During CK's era, Bavaria was a large duchy, who's realm extended into present day Austria (including Salzburg and portions of Oberösterreich). However, by the time EU3 rolled around, Bavaria's interests had turned in-land towards modern day Germany's Franconia and other western lands.
Similarly, the German emperor 'promoted' Bohemia to a kingdom, and they often exercised influence over lands which would be in modern Austria. But by the time EU3 rolls around, the Habsburgs began to exercise influence over areas of Austria (and eventually extended their influence to Bohemia).
To reflect this, EU3 favors Austria's borders over CK's favoritism towards Bavaria and Bohemia's borders.
...The good news (if you like Bohemia/Czechs) is that Bohemia is allied with Prague and basically has cores on mainland Bohemia and Moravia, so they could easily be granted those lands legitimately for EU3.
Regaring country creation and such (mostly for ebum):
don't forget the very small group of Al-Muratibid provinces in Edessa (Lesser Armenia) and at Tangiers. They have a disproportionately sized realm on my EU3 map (the darker grey). You might want to just make them a small Ottoman hold-out.
I will add a Lappland to my list and try to find another Swedish option (although Lappland really corresponds to what Karelia and Finland already own in Sweden). And I'll look into things for Egypt, Karelia and possibly another Grecian option.
I like the idea of Babylon, but the authenticity is ...incredibly dubious. You could conceivably put the Mamelukes there. They sort of overthrew the Abassids...but it's arguable whether that would have been avoided or expedited by our assorted crusader kingdoms. The Sinai/Arabian portions could probably fall under a somewhat generic Arabia.
I can look into some minors like Basra and Nasiriyah, but my ability to comprehend Arabic for transliteration and research (or any) purposes is terrible.
Posts
Tomorrow I'll probably do some of the relatively easy stuff like Spain and Italy and close the vote on this stuff.
2) Viva Carolingia!
3) Pagan superpower!
4) Screw the Mongols. I like the balance of power between the Pagan Finns and Muslim Zenata.
It's like Shalmelo read my mind.
Also, potential Christian Egyptian flag incoming tomorrow.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
And for potentially releasable Anglia, Kent and A'Ghàidhealtachd (Scottish Highlands) in the British Isles:
Anglia
Kent
A'Ghàidhealtachd
or
What do you think?
It's the Crusader's Cross, potent (per the cross for the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem), in Frankish colors (per the nation's new ruling class's heritage).
In the center is an escutcheon charged with Saint Catherine's Wheel and an embattled chief, Or. Saint Catherine is intimately tied to Alexandria, the capital of Christian Egypt, and is revered as a great converter of the unbelievers (though, in her day, it was pagans she was converting, not muslims). Her body was placed to rest on Mount Sinai, which (IIRC) falls within the boundaries of Christian Egypt, and she was a particularly popular saint during the mid- to late-Middle Ages.
The embattled chief is emblematic of the Egyptian crown, and the fact that it is still a country under siege from numerous enemies.
Thoughts? General direction, parts of it you'd like to see cleaned up, etc.?
EDIT:
Alternative, colors-reversed version:
Might be too close to the Carolingian flag, though.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
or
Without taking care of Valencia yet, there's Iberia.
EDIT: Thanks Darian, making Valencia now. It also should be noted that I really need to edit the missions, Castille declared war on me immediately as Leon. :P
Catherine's story works well for tying the area to Alexandria and the relatively easy conversions that have spread forth from there. Due to the copious amounts of heretics that have also shown up in Alexandria - and the neighboring provinces - having Catherine's wheel on a Coptic Cross may work well.
Elevenshae's looks much crisper (so I'm sure my suggestion has plenty of room for improved visuals), but something like
Otherwise the central cross potent with the crowned Escutcheon would probably work fine.
I can probably throw some things together for Valencia in a little bit. My folder actually already has a flag for Valencia for some reason (just the alternating red and yellow stripes of Darian's version of the COA). If you're looking for an alternate version (around until the 1700s, but superceded by the more famous yellow and red stripes):
I declared Kabylia to be Algiers. The land is Muslim even if the rule isn't.
That's just Castille being Castille though
[edit] Also, it's Flanders that owns Mallorca...if that impacts whatever you're doing with it.
I just gave Malorca to Castille. If you want to keep creating and e-mailing me minors I just have to edit the excel file and tag a province or two as cores, I'm fine with that.
Crossed the modern Berber flag with the standard of Cyrus the Great, to create a flag for Berber Persia:
The four smaller crosses were present on the Crusader's Cross - they're supposed to represent, alternatively, the four gospels or the four directions in which Christ's word was spread. (C.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_Cross). In my version, I made all of the crosses potent, but that might might it a little too busy. Would it look better if the four smaller crosses were simplified?
The only reason I'd want to stay away from the Coptic cross is because the Coptic church is largely separate from the Roman / Latin church, which the Crusaders represented. If it's a Crusader state, it would, I think, be ruled at least by Latin Catholics, rather than Coptic Catholics.
If we are going the Coptic Cross route, however, I really like Space Coyote's Coptic Cross and Wheel - though I might shrink the cross a little more so that it actually forms the N, S, E, and W spokes of the wheel, rather than piercing the wheel, just to see what it looks like.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
You could have a Crusader cross in a Coptic style:
Or the cross inside the wheel as you suggested:
Or both together, but that might be a bit too busy:
I would rename the aegean islands after their capital, in the style of other Byzantine successor states e.g. Empire of Nicaea, Despotate of Epirus (great name).
You could have a Crusader cross in a Coptic style:
Or the cross inside the wheel as you suggested:
Or both together, but that might be a bit too busy:
Eh, it's a reasonable assumption! Plus, there's something just so ornately beautiful about that particular Coptic cross. I like all your reworks, but I think I like the Cross-in-Wheel version the best. The combo is prettier, but probably too busy compared to the other flags we're using.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Cross of Jerusalem (Crusader's Cross), Coptic Cross, Escutcheoned Wheel and Embattled Chief on a blue field (Alexandria's ties to the Med), all quartered with the flag of Vermandois (the ruling house).
Or, without the escutcheon:
Or, with a simplified (non-potent) Crusader Cross (available escutcheoned or not):
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Did they have a flag while a province of Byzantium prior to the Arab conquest?
Exactly like Zedar
Saint Catherine's Chariot is pure genius!
Karelia probably needs a decision to become Christian unless we want to see how the Pagans can do.
What I have labelled Cretian Greece is actually Cibyrrhaeot Greece (i.e. Greece originating from Rhodes; the dark brown color). Epirus is light green (and technically no longer corresponds to historic Epirus, and would be better named Crete); the Aegean Islands are pink (and also have significant holdings in the Caucasus).
In game Naxos is one province corresponding with Euboea and Naxos (the two islands off the coast off of Athens). If you're looking for something more classical, Smyrna or Ionian Greece would work better for the Aegean Islands (as they correspond with the two provinces held in what would be Turkey).
Heraldic symbolism and symbols of nationalism were incredibly rare before the 1200s. The use of a flag to represent culture or nationality came in the 1700s. Unfortunately, Byzantium lost control of Egypt long before then. Much of the in-game heraldry is generated in reverse - i.e. taking the heraldry for Vermandois in 1300 and applying it retroactively to 1066.
(unexciting province numbers lie within)
+Carinthia is Kärnten in German; in vanilla EU3 it's covered by Styria (they also control the equivalent to Thuringia). Unfortunately they're a bit south of actual Carinthia. In-game Aquileia corresponds closely with our Carinthia, although Austria's Görz or Styria could also substitute (although Styria really applies to Steiermark). 111 - CK's correspondence is close to Friuli, 129 - Krain, 1768 - Lienz and 1769 - Görz, although Italy controls the equivalence to Görz in the CK map.
+Austria controls Steiermark (132) and Kärnten (128) and should probably be given Vienna (134 - Wien) held by Poland). This would leave a lone Norwegian Ostmarch (1770) to the North which would probably be best in Bohemia's hands (to make their lands contiguous).
+Burgundy owns Salzburg (76).
+Normandy owns Tyrol (73 - Tirol).
+Poland owns Brescia (107), which is probably best given to Milan or Ferrara).
+Unlabelled Orange is Livorno (corresponding to predefined Pisa).
+Light blue is labelled Lombardia (104) on the map, but the equivalent EU3 country is Milan.
Ridiculous East/Central Germany:
+Lebus/Lubusz owns Neumark (49)
+Scotland owns the equivalent of Brandenburg (51 - Ruppin, 1759 - Potsdam (HTTT only), 50 - Brandenburg).
+Poland owns the equivalent of Anhalt (52 - Altmark) as well as Lower Bavaria (and the Palatinate).
+Carinthia (Kärnten) owns a pseudo-Thuringia (58 - Anhalt, 62 - Leipzig, 63 - Thüringen (labelled as Erfurt in the files)).
+Norway owns a pseudo-Saxony (61 - Dresden, 59 -Meissen, 1763 - Niederlausitz, 60 - Oberlausitz)
+Sicily (Naples) owns Erz (1771) - nominally part of Saxony or Bohemia, now within the Czech Republic.
Southern Germany:
+Italy owns Munich/München (65) - the historical heart of Bavaria.
+Ulm corresponds with the actual Würtemberg (69 and 70)
+Württemberg covers Ansbach (71 - Leiningen) and splits Mainz (78 - Pfalz)
+Sicily (Naples) owns Baden (74) (near Breisgau)
+Schwaben is all alone (68) next to fractured Bavaria.
+Bern (165) and Schwyz (166) are the historical antecedents to Switzerland, I can make a separate Bern if you want, but it's probably best to put them together as a decentralized Switzerland
For missing states, revolters and releasable countries, I can put files together for:
+Oberbayern (Upper Bavaria/Munich), Schwaben (Swabia), Slovenia and/or Görz, Breisgau, possibly Lebus for Germany.
+Romagna, possibly Apulia/Puglia and possibly Roma for Italy
+Valencia, Algarve, possibly Cantabria and Cordoba for Spain
+Languedoc for France (I'm surprised it's not there already, they have everything else).
+Jutland (Jylland), Scania (Skane) and ...hopefully something else for Scandinavia.
(let me know if any of these are made already or if there's something you'd rather have)
With _Arab_ rulers the result might have been something more tolerant. Not because the Arab's were somehow more tolerant, but the stresses caused by fear of crypto-Muslims would be lessened. Outside of that Spain was and currently has significant influence from the left overs of Arab culture. Where the rulers aren't Arab I can't imagine our Spain would be much different outside of not developing a central state quite as quickly and being under the influence of an enlarged New Roman Empire and a Burgundian state that extends below the Pyrenees (by the way have we finalized the borders for the Empire???). That being said most of the rulers are Frankish like the historical situation, yes? I didn't take any peeks. I think there would be significant pressure (as there was historically) to unify the Spanish kingdoms and provide a counter-point to a significant threat to the north.
* Some further notes on Germany now that I have Rex's detailed analysis. I might suggest an allied (to Scotland) Brandenburg rather than the ownership that's shown now.
* Is Bavaria gone completely then? It was a traditional powerhouse. Can we somehow create a decentralized state of Bavaria? CK doesn't handle the effects of geography and culture very well and Bavaria (along with Venice) may be a victim of that.
* Poland seems to be the new Brandenburg (far flung significant holdings in the empire) and it might be easier to make it such so that it has access to unification events.
* Saxony (per Bavaria) might be better off as an ally of Norway or a vassal.
Romagna
Lappland
Karelia
Egypt
Need to make some final choices in Greece
Not sure what to call Zenatan Persia/Iraq (Babylon? :P)
I haven't taken a good look at France or Germany.
Any additional minors would be appreciated. If you can justify some Swedish minors into existence, that would be extremely helpful or Sweden is just going to get +5 decentrilization.
Generally speaking, I'm trying to keep things contiguous. So I'll probably release both Genoa and Venice as merchant republics (and hopefully preserve their trade leagues). And things like Normandy's various random possessions will be removed. I might give them an extra province in France in exchange.
I'm going to move the Pope back to Rome and see if I can make Portugal the Papal Controller.
The historic Bavaria of this time period is actually split between a Polish Bavaria-Bohemia, Sicilian (Neapolitan) Munich and independent Swabia.
The Bavaria/Bohemia controlled by Poland consists of:
Bamberg (66) - part of Würzburg in EU3
Franken (67) - The Palatinate in EU3 (eventually part of Bavaria)
Oberpfalz (1757) - Bavaria
Sudeten (267 - Plsen) - Bohemia/Bavaria (...this province basically corresponds to a borderland, like Erz)
Bohemia (266) - ...Bohemia (never mind that Bohemia doesn't control Bohemia in my map)
If you'd like to learn a bit more about why translating CK's map into EU3 is sort of ridiculous (complete with picture):
But the CK and EU3 borders really don't match up except in rare cases, anyway. For example take Bohemia's lands:
(I've marked the provinces I gave to Bohemia in my map with yellow circles)
Bohemia owns Bayern, Salzburg, and Passau in the west and Ostrava and Trencin in the east (with Moravia in the middle held by Norway). But the only province that is even named the same is Salzburg, and Salzburg in CK is about 3 times as big as Salzburg in EU3. In my EU3 map Bohemia has Niederbayern and Linz in the west and then Moravia and Ersekujvar in the east (with Ostmarch held by Norway).
And that is going to end up messed up however you slice it (there is one province separating what is essentially Bavaria (Passau) from what is essentially Slovakia. In EU3 this same distance is now separated by Linz and Wien (or Linz and Wien/Ostmarch if you have HTTT).
The map designs fit disparate time periods. During CK's era, Bavaria was a large duchy, who's realm extended into present day Austria (including Salzburg and portions of Oberösterreich). However, by the time EU3 rolled around, Bavaria's interests had turned in-land towards modern day Germany's Franconia and other western lands.
Similarly, the German emperor 'promoted' Bohemia to a kingdom, and they often exercised influence over lands which would be in modern Austria. But by the time EU3 rolls around, the Habsburgs began to exercise influence over areas of Austria (and eventually extended their influence to Bohemia).
To reflect this, EU3 favors Austria's borders over CK's favoritism towards Bavaria and Bohemia's borders.
...The good news (if you like Bohemia/Czechs) is that Bohemia is allied with Prague and basically has cores on mainland Bohemia and Moravia, so they could easily be granted those lands legitimately for EU3.
Regaring country creation and such (mostly for ebum):
I will add a Lappland to my list and try to find another Swedish option (although Lappland really corresponds to what Karelia and Finland already own in Sweden). And I'll look into things for Egypt, Karelia and possibly another Grecian option.
I like the idea of Babylon, but the authenticity is ...incredibly dubious. You could conceivably put the Mamelukes there. They sort of overthrew the Abassids...but it's arguable whether that would have been avoided or expedited by our assorted crusader kingdoms. The Sinai/Arabian portions could probably fall under a somewhat generic Arabia.
I can look into some minors like Basra and Nasiriyah, but my ability to comprehend Arabic for transliteration and research (or any) purposes is terrible.
It would be easier to *not* use existing nations for the major powers, for decision/mission reasons.