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How to make post without pissing each other off (or, a "code of conduct" meta-thread)

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Posts

  • taoist drunktaoist drunk Registered User
    edited August 2010
    MKR wrote: »
    Am I the only one who sees what he said as an obvious joke? Is there a gay person on PA who would be offended by that?

    Are you guys meta concern trolling? D:

    Jokes that rely on established stereotypes, that poke fun at the stereotyped group rather than the stereotyper herself or himself, aren't funny for one, aren't nice for another, and reinforce the same stereotype whether you like it or not. Obvious joke or not, it wasn't a terrific thing to say.

    taoist drunk on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    Oh yeah? Well, I'm gay and I think it's quite amusing. You're pretty lame for thinking of me as a tool.

    Saying you did a lame and toolish thing is not that same as calling you a a lame tool; we all do lame and toolish things from time to time. All I'm saying is the Cat isn't totally off base here.

    Hachface on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    This only reinforces my mental image of a bunch of vaguely french looking femme guys sitting at their computers at what-all in the morning sipping tea and saying "mmmHMM Homoseeeexual, you say? I do think I am offended, yes yes" wearing nothing but boxers and an awful pretentious smirk as they pretend to be offended by something on the internet.

    I have no doubt there is a lot of phony outrage flying around on these boards, likely to reinforce an online persona and not because they're offended in real life, but it's probably a good idea to just apologize and move on.

    We have to preserve civility in the civility thread or else we have NOTHING!

    emnmnme on
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Man, I'm late to this party. Sorry for quoting stuff from page 1.
    Dagrabbit wrote: »
    4. Perhaps most dammingly, the majority does not argue with the poster, but their sterotype of what the poster's position means. They argue against the strawman of the argument, not the argument itself, because they've already classified the minority position and have a come to a conclusion based on that larger classification.

    All of this gives the minority the impression that the majority is not interested in having a meaningful discussion. The discussion will not be interesting, productive, or fun. It makes the forum appear close-minded because certain issues are, essentially, settled law, and arguing against the established set of valid positions is treated derisively. So why bother participating?
    YES, very much so. Very frequently I find that forumers of an opinion that is in the majority here are desperate for another forumer to come in and give them the chance to fire off their rehearsed arguments, often reflecting a very shallow reading of the minority opinion being expressed.
    Feral wrote: »
    That said, not dogpiling would help that a lot.
    I agree with the dogpiling points, except "dogpiling" is not something any one individual is responsible for and hence makes it difficult to describe how one would not do it.
    mythago wrote: »
    Part of the problem, I think, is that those of us who have been around the Internet for a scrillion years have seen trolls and silly geese do the same dance over and over. So when A leads to B leads to C leads to concern trolling, there's a tendency to step in at A and say "Thanks, concern troll, take a hike", which may baffle people who are asking "Gee, the guy just said A, why are you biting his head off?" And, of course, people who aren't actually trolling but are maybe just being a little clueless.
    This is definitely my biggest problem with myself. I was doing many of these same debates on BBSs and newsgroups before the Web existed. I learn something new and alter opinions all the time, which is why I still do it, but I am severely abrupt to dismiss something when I see where it's going and I've seen it 100 times before. It is very tedious not to do this, unfortunately. Also, I respect the "assume good faith" principle, but it is nearly impossible to do when you are convinced that someone is just screwing around on bad faith.

    Anyway, one thing I've wanted for a long time and have pushed mods for is a more fleshed-out debate etiquette sticky to go along with the rules and fallacies. Nothing strict or complicated, but some advice and examples and suggestions for how to and how not to handle making a point or responding to a point.

    Also, guys, a girl is on the Internet and said she isn't wearing pants. Is there an etiquette for that, too?

    Yar on
  • ThejakemanThejakeman Registered User
    edited August 2010
    I think the point that I'm trying to make and none of you are getting here is that this is a stupid thing to get offended about, and by being offended you lend it the weight it needs to become something to be offended with. The key to defeating stereotypes or racism or whatever is not to stand around discussing how offensive it is and how many people might be hurt by it, but to simply laugh at it as being absurd as it is. By flailing about and starting this discussion, all you've done is demonstrate the power that I have over you through offensive stereotyping rather than combat it in a legitimate way.

    So, lesson learned, in the future, if you're truly concerned about the effects of stereotyping, do not work yourself into a tizzy and attempt to admonish the stereotyper. This won't solve anything, only reinforce the sterotyper's conviction in his stereotype (if they get offended, I must have struck a nerve, they must be queers) and lead to a lengthy and unnecessary discussion of an irrational point of view.

    tl;dr A jokes a joke until you decide to be offended by it.

    Thejakeman on
  • Wet BanditWet Bandit Registered User
    edited August 2010
    Keep digging, man.

    Wet Bandit on
  • ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thejakeman wrote: »
    I think the point that I'm trying to make and none of you are getting here is that this is a stupid thing to get offended about, and by being offended you lend it the weight it needs to become something to be offended with. The key to defeating stereotypes or racism or whatever is not to stand around discussing how offensive it is and how many people might be hurt by it, but to simply laugh at it as being absurd as it is. By flailing about and starting this discussion, all you've done is demonstrate the power that I have over you through offensive stereotyping rather than combat it in a legitimate way.

    So, lesson learned, in the future, if you're truly concerned about the effects of stereotyping, do not work yourself into a tizzy and attempt to admonish the stereotyper. This won't solve anything, only reinforce the sterotyper's conviction in his stereotype (if they get offended, I must have struck a nerve, they must be queers) and lead to a lengthy and unnecessary discussion of an irrational point of view.

    tl;dr A jokes a joke until you decide to be offended by it.

    You couldn't be more wrong in this post if you tried.

    If quid is a sniper of correctness, you are the Hiroshima of Wrong

    Arch on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    @thejakeman

    I am skeptical that you know anything at all about what the key to defeating stereotypes is. And if what you are concerned about is avoiding a lengthy, unnecessary discussion, all you have to do is cease defending that one kinda dumb thing that you said and move on.

    Hachface on
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Oh and on the conservative/liberal thing, I agree that the mods generally do a great job of allowing a minority/conservative opinion to have its say. However, if you are a conservative/minority opinion-holder, you are held to a massively higher standard. Legionofone is constantly jailed, and I can see why, but there seem to be a dozen just like him on the other side of the fence who are simply ignored, not enforced.

    Yar on
  • Hockey JohnstonHockey Johnston Registered User
    edited August 2010
    The whole idea that people not liking something you've said means you have power over them is one of the strangest and most commonly repeated memes in politics.

    Like 'you sure do hate Rush Limbaugh even though he's just joking about blacks being inferior, you must really care about him lololol'.

    Hockey Johnston on
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I dunno, in general when someone is saying mean things the high road is to ignore it. It doesn't seem too complicated.

    Yar on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Yar wrote: »
    I dunno, in general when someone is saying mean things the high road is to ignore it. It doesn't seem too complicated.

    Polite warnings do exist. I think you can make a warning while keeping the conversation civil. Just takes tact, right Cat?

    emnmnme on
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Sure, nothing wrong with polite warnings, either. But it seems to me that the underlying position the Canadian government is taking in that letter is an intellectually vindictive one.

    Yar on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I channel the spirit of this thread to help me.

    Lord help us all.

    Qingu on
  • Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Surreal. Immersive. Earth.Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    MKR wrote: »
    Am I the only one who sees what he said as an obvious joke? Is there a gay person on PA who would be offended by that?

    Are you guys meta concern trolling? D:
    I don't know either dude. Reality 'jumped the shark' a long a time ago...

    You're all Towels. :P

    Zilla360 on
    Skidzilla360.jpg | NH844lc.png | GACSALB.jpg My Blog | Gravatar | PSN | 72INGtl.jpg | HkSlskT.png
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    I channel the spirit of this thread to help me.

    Lord help us all.

    Are you running to the spirit of civility because someone is kicking sand in your face in another thread? Or are you noticing a gradual decline in peaceable talk in a bunch of other threads lately? I've noticed the latter. Must be the hot weather making everyone short-tempered.

    emnmnme on
  • taoist drunktaoist drunk Registered User
    edited August 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    I channel the spirit of this thread to help me.

    Lord help us all.

    Are you running to the spirit of civility because someone is kicking sand in your face in another thread? Or are you noticing a gradual decline in peaceable talk in a bunch of other threads lately? I've noticed the latter. Must be the hot weather making everyone short-tempered.

    That other thread has a lot of the same core issues as this one, namely, how to have differing viewpoints without pissing each other off, which has a lot to do with taking/feigning umbrage and how to react.

    And yeah, I think the heat makes people cranky.

    taoist drunk on
  • legionofonelegionofone __BANNED USERS
    edited August 2010
    Yar wrote: »
    Oh and on the conservative/liberal thing, I agree that the mods generally do a great job of allowing a minority/conservative opinion to have its say. However, if you are a conservative/minority opinion-holder, you are held to a massively higher standard. Legionofone is constantly jailed, and I can see why, but there seem to be a dozen just like him on the other side of the fence who are simply ignored, not enforced.

    Mind you, I didn't call anyone in particular a neckbearded manchild, it was just using it as an example that got me infracted twice in the same thread.

    legionofone on
    "They have shit," Krause said. "Rights my ass. 'Rights'. Nobody has any fucking rights unless they've got a machine gun."
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    I channel the spirit of this thread to help me.

    Lord help us all.

    Are you running to the spirit of civility because someone is kicking sand in your face in another thread? Or are you noticing a gradual decline in peaceable talk in a bunch of other threads lately? I've noticed the latter. Must be the hot weather making everyone short-tempered.
    It's more than that.

    I'm getting pretty bummed out about the general culture here.

    Edit: What I mean is, the reason I like D&D so much is that you are all incredibly intelligent and conscientious folks. There's heated disagreements, but for the most part, I see this place as a refuge, a place to talk about stuff with like-minded people. And then it turns out there's a bunch of people on this forum who love making childish rape jokes. It's just sort of jarring.

    Qingu on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    I channel the spirit of this thread to help me.

    Lord help us all.

    Are you running to the spirit of civility because someone is kicking sand in your face in another thread? Or are you noticing a gradual decline in peaceable talk in a bunch of other threads lately? I've noticed the latter. Must be the hot weather making everyone short-tempered.
    It's more than that.

    I'm getting pretty bummed out about the general culture here.

    Edit: What I mean is, the reason I like D&D so much is that you are all incredibly intelligent and conscientious folks. There's heated disagreements, but for the most part, I see this place as a refuge, a place to talk about stuff with like-minded people. And then it turns out there's a bunch of people on this forum who love making childish rape jokes. It's just sort of jarring.

    Do you have a zero tolerance policy on rape jokes, Qingu? I mean, is there a rape joke out there that you would chuckle at or are they all childish? The reason I ask is zero tolerance and principled stands and stuff eventually look silly when they're carried out to their extremes.

    emnmnme on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Do you have a zero tolerance policy on rape jokes, Qingu? I mean, is there a rape joke out there that you would chuckle at or are they all childish? The reason I ask is zero tolerance and principled stands and stuff eventually look silly when they're carried out to their extremes.
    No, I don't. I mean, the joke on Wednesday didn't bother me at all. But, I can see how it bothered other people—and the response to the backlash bothers me a lot. Both by the authors of the comic and by many people on the forum. I honestly wasn't expecting it.

    Qingu on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    I honestly wasn't expecting it.

    There's your problem - you're dealing with fans. When vgcats did that abortion comic complete with 'smug address to the readers' followup comic, the fans defended it. When CAD did the miscarriage comic complete with 'smug written response to readers', fans defended it. PA fans would excuse anything Gabe and Tycho do. A few would even take a bullet for them.

    emnmnme on
  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    I honestly wasn't expecting it.

    There's your problem - you're dealing with fans. When vgcats did that abortion comic complete with 'smug address to the readers' followup comic, the fans defended it. When CAD did the miscarriage comic complete with 'smug written response to readers', fans defended it. PA fans would excuse anything Gabe and Tycho do. A few would even take a bullet for them.

    Probably not.

    I mean, I don't think that they have such rabid fans that they would do that.

    LoserForHireX on
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
    "We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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