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Mutant or not mutant, that is the question.

JCMJCM Registered User
edited January 2007 in Graphic Violence
I was debating yesterday on Namor´s status as the "first mutant"
(aka when he reached puberty he manisfested powers beyond his human and atlantean parentage) and I happened to come accross this little info on Taskmaster-
The X-Men: Children of the Atom sourcebook released by Marvel in 1986 listed Taskmaster (Anthony) as a mutant, by the way, as did a reference when a mutant detector detected a mutant in the vicinity in Avengers, which was initially believed to be Mystique, except she had on a scrambler.

and this rebuttal
Taskmaster has claimed he is not a mutant.
His abilities developed from infancy, not during puberty, like most Marvel mutants.
AFAIK, he's never been susceptible to any weapons, drugs, diseases, sensors, superpowers, etc. which affect mutants.
The recent events of House of M and Civil War don't appear to have had any effect on him.

Isnt a mutant someone who is born with latent powers that manifest during puberty (there have been some that manifest it earlier) due to the X-gene, and not someone who gained their powers through science/magic/myths?

Im confused, and ask the GV geeks, what makes one a mutant?

JCM on
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Posts

  • bobgorilabobgorila Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Madrox has had his since birth. As I recall this makes him a sub-species of homo superior, or a slightly different species all together, but essentially still a mutie.

    bobgorila on
    I like my women how I like my coffee.

    Anally.
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    bobgorila wrote:
    Madrox has had his since birth. As I recall this makes him a sub-species of homo superior, or a slightly different species all together, but essentially still a mutie.

    Which was probably the stupidest thing to be in X-Factor so far. I mean, they tried playing it up as if guys like Madrox and Nightcrawler weren't mutants at all but something completely different, which is just making up a really stupid complication. Personally I'm ignoring it until it goes away.


    Basically, you're a mutant if you're born with the X-gene. That's really all you need to say.



    I have my own question for the DC fans, is there any real difference between the 'metagene' or whatever DC calls it, and the X-gene?

    Scooter on
  • JCMJCM Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Ouch.

    And wouldnt that make Taskmaster a mutant?

    Or maybe his abilities are just something that the human body comes with, but not all can use?

    JCM on
  • Spectre-xSpectre-x Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Scooter wrote:
    bobgorila wrote:
    Madrox has had his since birth. As I recall this makes him a sub-species of homo superior, or a slightly different species all together, but essentially still a mutie.

    Which was probably the stupidest thing to be in X-Factor so far. I mean, they tried playing it up as if guys like Madrox and Nightcrawler weren't mutants at all but something completely different, which is just making up a really stupid complication. Personally I'm ignoring it until it goes away.


    Basically, you're a mutant if you're born with the X-gene. That's really all you need to say.



    I have my own question for the DC fans, is there any real difference between the 'metagene' or whatever DC calls it, and the X-gene?

    The X-gene is triggered automatically, while the metagene is either triggered in the same way as the X-gene, or by unusual situations, giving that person powers corresponding to the situation that triggered the gene.

    Spectre-x on
  • Conditional_AxeConditional_Axe Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Scooter wrote:
    bobgorila wrote:
    Madrox has had his since birth. As I recall this makes him a sub-species of homo superior, or a slightly different species all together, but essentially still a mutie.

    Which was probably the stupidest thing to be in X-Factor so far. I mean, they tried playing it up as if guys like Madrox and Nightcrawler weren't mutants at all but something completely different, which is just making up a really stupid complication. Personally I'm ignoring it until it goes away.


    Basically, you're a mutant if you're born with the X-gene. That's really all you need to say.



    I have my own question for the DC fans, is there any real difference between the 'metagene' or whatever DC calls it, and the X-gene?
    I was under the impression that the homo killcrop thing is just a subspecies of mutantkind. Don't forget Polaris, either. Her green hair is a mutation, one she's had since birth, even if her magnetokinesis manifested later.

    Conditional_Axe on
  • bobgorilabobgorila Registered User
    edited January 2007
    See, I try to ignore the whole Metagene thing in the DCU.

    As if Earth-1 wasn't already crawling with "capes".

    bobgorila on
    I like my women how I like my coffee.

    Anally.
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    JCM wrote:
    Ouch.

    And wouldnt that make Taskmaster a mutant?

    Or maybe his abilities are just something that the human body comes with, but not all can use?

    He could still be a mutant, just not of the X-gene order. He's just lucky he doesn't have 6 fingers and toes. That'd be lame.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    See, I don't have a problem with the idea that Madrox and other mutants might not be the exact same types of mutants as those that manifest their mutation at puberty. Biologically, it makes sense in a couple of ways. First, that one species is a sub-species of the other, is a pretty well known concept in evolutionary biology. Second, the phenomenon of convergent evolution makes it possible for two different species to evolve similar traits. These concepts make Peter David's interpretation pretty sound, in my eyes at least.

    With that in mind, I don't see any reason why Tasky couldn't be a mutant. Technically, since the general human population does not possess the skill he was born with, he is a mutant. He may not be a mutant of the X-gene variety, but he is one all the same.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Not only that, but I like the idea of powers developing at puberty being the result of evolution, the idea being that mutants whose powers showed at birth were invariably killed by villagers or their families, so evolution recessed the trait until puberty.

    It adds a little... something extra to the whole thing, making it somehow more plausible... I mean, as plausible as it can be.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Even if powers normally develop at purberty, there are going to be outliers.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Malkor wrote:
    Even if powers normally develop at purberty, there are going to be outliers.

    True enough. The question, then, is whether these outliers are true X-gene mutants. A secondary question is whether they are, in fact, further mutations of the X-gene, or whether another gene altogether is acting in conjunction with the X-gene to manifest the mutations prior to the onset of puberty. This line of questioning could apply to the "Madrox" type mutants as well, opens the door to all sorts of genetic queries, especially when the two genetic types come together in an individual.

    wwtMask on
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  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited January 2007
    I think the rebuttal is correct. Marvel has added further qualifications to the title of Mutant than merely possessing powers independent of outside forces like radiation and demons, and so you must meet them in addition to having powers. If you don't meet them, then you aren't a mutant.

    If Taskmaster wasn't listed in the 198 files, then I'd say he isn't currently a mutant since he is too high profile to escape notice or mention from SHIELD.

    robosagogo on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    robosagogo wrote:
    I think the rebuttal is correct. Marvel has added further qualifications to the title of Mutant than merely possessing powers independent of outside forces like radiation and demons, and so you must meet them in addition to having powers. If you don't meet them, then you aren't a mutant.

    If Taskmaster wasn't listed in the 198 files, then I'd say he isn't currently a mutant since he is too high profile to escape notice or mention from SHIELD.

    I only disagree with this in that Taskmaster is a mutant in the biological sense, since he has an apparent mutation that gives him his power. He is not, however, a member of the Homo Superior group, as far as we know, and does not possess the X-gene, so he cannot be classified as an X-man or Mutant.

    It's splitting hairs, I know, but this revelation about Madrox and other "different" mutants, means that we have to be a lot more specific when we refer to different characters as "mutants".

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Are there examples in Marvel of people who develope powers who didn't get them by an accident (Spider-man) who aren't X-gene mutants? And lets not include magic or "Chi" based heroes, as I don't think Taskmaster falls under that category.

    Monkeydrye on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    I think that the "not really mutant" mutants is going to be retconned extremely quickly. Because it's fucking stupid. Most likely, it's going to be retconned as someone trying to mindfuck Madrox.

    Fencingsax on
  • JudasJudas Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Are there examples in Marvel of people who develope powers who didn't get them by an accident (Spider-man) who aren't X-gene mutants? And lets not include magic or "Chi" based heroes, as I don't think Taskmaster falls under that category.

    Mastermind Excello. The kid has only showed up in Hulk so far, but he's a teenage genius who can apparently out think Reed Richards and he claims he isn't a mutant, as in "X-factor, X gene" type mutant; I'd assume his situation is more along the lines of a Taskmaster mutation.

    Judas on
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    Situation excellent. I am attacking.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Judas wrote:
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Are there examples in Marvel of people who develope powers who didn't get them by an accident (Spider-man) who aren't X-gene mutants? And lets not include magic or "Chi" based heroes, as I don't think Taskmaster falls under that category.

    Mastermind Excello. The kid has only showed up in Hulk so far, but he's a teenage genius who can apparently out think Reed Richards and he claims he isn't a mutant, as in "X-factor, X gene" type mutant; I'd assume his situation is more along the lines of a Taskmaster mutation.

    I'm going with "He's a mutant but doesn't know it". Otherwise it's pretty damn stupid.

    Fencingsax on
  • MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User
    edited January 2007
    wwtMask wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    I think the rebuttal is correct. Marvel has added further qualifications to the title of Mutant than merely possessing powers independent of outside forces like radiation and demons, and so you must meet them in addition to having powers. If you don't meet them, then you aren't a mutant.

    If Taskmaster wasn't listed in the 198 files, then I'd say he isn't currently a mutant since he is too high profile to escape notice or mention from SHIELD.

    I only disagree with this in that Taskmaster is a mutant in the biological sense, since he has an apparent mutation that gives him his power. He is not, however, a member of the Homo Superior group, as far as we know, and does not possess the X-gene, so he cannot be classified as an X-man or Mutant.

    It's splitting hairs, I know, but this revelation about Madrox and other "different" mutants, means that we have to be a lot more specific when we refer to different characters as "mutants".

    So, the question is then, canhis powers be supressed in the ways that others can be? Could they be detected? Can sentinals only detect mutant powers? Would Spider-Man be a blank to them? What about Captain America?

    Monkeydrye on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Fencingsax wrote:
    Judas wrote:
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Are there examples in Marvel of people who develope powers who didn't get them by an accident (Spider-man) who aren't X-gene mutants? And lets not include magic or "Chi" based heroes, as I don't think Taskmaster falls under that category.

    Mastermind Excello. The kid has only showed up in Hulk so far, but he's a teenage genius who can apparently out think Reed Richards and he claims he isn't a mutant, as in "X-factor, X gene" type mutant; I'd assume his situation is more along the lines of a Taskmaster mutation.

    I'm going with "He's a mutant but doesn't know it". Otherwise it's pretty damn stupid.

    Well, is Reed's intellegence a power? Or was he always smart. Smarts I can buy as "normal human". Now if the kid could use telepathy, however slight, he ain't normal anymore. Or if he is SO much more advanced as to make the worlds top geniuses looks like fools, then yeah, power.

    There is always someone out there that is the smartest or fastest or strongest. But usually they are only a bit better than #2. But if number 2 can lift 1000 pounds, and #1 can lift 2000...well, something is probably up.

    Monkeydrye on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Sentry wrote:
    Not only that, but I like the idea of powers developing at puberty being the result of evolution, the idea being that mutants whose powers showed at birth were invariably killed by villagers or their families, so evolution recessed the trait until puberty.

    It adds a little... something extra to the whole thing, making it somehow more plausible... I mean, as plausible as it can be.

    doesn't matter, they would still be killed

    Algertman on
  • MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Algertman wrote:
    Sentry wrote:
    Not only that, but I like the idea of powers developing at puberty being the result of evolution, the idea being that mutants whose powers showed at birth were invariably killed by villagers or their families, so evolution recessed the trait until puberty.

    It adds a little... something extra to the whole thing, making it somehow more plausible... I mean, as plausible as it can be.

    doesn't matter, they would still be killed

    But at Puberty, they have a chance to run or fight back. Especially in older times, being able to fly would keep you pretty safe, so long as you could fend for yourself. But a baby born with flight...wouldn't know to try and run...

    Monkeydrye on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    Judas wrote:
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Are there examples in Marvel of people who develope powers who didn't get them by an accident (Spider-man) who aren't X-gene mutants? And lets not include magic or "Chi" based heroes, as I don't think Taskmaster falls under that category.

    Mastermind Excello. The kid has only showed up in Hulk so far, but he's a teenage genius who can apparently out think Reed Richards and he claims he isn't a mutant, as in "X-factor, X gene" type mutant; I'd assume his situation is more along the lines of a Taskmaster mutation.

    I'm going with "He's a mutant but doesn't know it". Otherwise it's pretty damn stupid.

    Well, is Reed's intellegence a power? Or was he always smart. Smarts I can buy as "normal human". Now if the kid could use telepathy, however slight, he ain't normal anymore. Or if he is SO much more advanced as to make the worlds top geniuses looks like fools, then yeah, power.

    There is always someone out there that is the smartest or fastest or strongest. But usually they are only a bit better than #2. But if number 2 can lift 1000 pounds, and #1 can lift 2000...well, something is probably up.

    Yes, but some 18 year old kid gloating that h's smarter than someone with a dozen PhDs, a guy who invented a billion things, and so on, is either enhanced (maybe a robot that's unaware he's a robot), or he's a mutant. Plus, the kid sees calculus in the world around him (actual equations and curves and so on) or something, from what I recall.

    Fencingsax on
  • MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Fencingsax wrote:
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    Judas wrote:
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Are there examples in Marvel of people who develope powers who didn't get them by an accident (Spider-man) who aren't X-gene mutants? And lets not include magic or "Chi" based heroes, as I don't think Taskmaster falls under that category.

    Mastermind Excello. The kid has only showed up in Hulk so far, but he's a teenage genius who can apparently out think Reed Richards and he claims he isn't a mutant, as in "X-factor, X gene" type mutant; I'd assume his situation is more along the lines of a Taskmaster mutation.

    I'm going with "He's a mutant but doesn't know it". Otherwise it's pretty damn stupid.

    Well, is Reed's intellegence a power? Or was he always smart. Smarts I can buy as "normal human". Now if the kid could use telepathy, however slight, he ain't normal anymore. Or if he is SO much more advanced as to make the worlds top geniuses looks like fools, then yeah, power.

    There is always someone out there that is the smartest or fastest or strongest. But usually they are only a bit better than #2. But if number 2 can lift 1000 pounds, and #1 can lift 2000...well, something is probably up.

    Yes, but some 18 year old kid gloating that h's smarter than someone with a dozen PhDs, a guy who invented a billion things, and so on, is either enhanced (maybe a robot that's unaware he's a robot), or he's a mutant. Plus, the kid sees calculus in the world around him (actual equations and curves and so on) or something, from what I recall.

    Hmmm...on NPR they had a guy with autism (I know I can't spell). They guy recited Pi to like 20,000 decimals. But what is weird is that he doesn't see numbers like we do. He sees them as shapes and colors. When he sees a "1", he sees something glowing bright. So when he was reciting Pi, he wasn't thinking of numbers...he was calling out a landscape of shape and colors.

    Point being, the brain is weird :) But, yeah, if this kid is so smart that he breaks down the whole world into math...something is up.

    Monkeydrye on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    Judas wrote:
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Are there examples in Marvel of people who develope powers who didn't get them by an accident (Spider-man) who aren't X-gene mutants? And lets not include magic or "Chi" based heroes, as I don't think Taskmaster falls under that category.

    Mastermind Excello. The kid has only showed up in Hulk so far, but he's a teenage genius who can apparently out think Reed Richards and he claims he isn't a mutant, as in "X-factor, X gene" type mutant; I'd assume his situation is more along the lines of a Taskmaster mutation.

    I'm going with "He's a mutant but doesn't know it". Otherwise it's pretty damn stupid.

    Well, is Reed's intellegence a power? Or was he always smart. Smarts I can buy as "normal human". Now if the kid could use telepathy, however slight, he ain't normal anymore. Or if he is SO much more advanced as to make the worlds top geniuses looks like fools, then yeah, power.

    There is always someone out there that is the smartest or fastest or strongest. But usually they are only a bit better than #2. But if number 2 can lift 1000 pounds, and #1 can lift 2000...well, something is probably up.

    Yes, but some 18 year old kid gloating that h's smarter than someone with a dozen PhDs, a guy who invented a billion things, and so on, is either enhanced (maybe a robot that's unaware he's a robot), or he's a mutant. Plus, the kid sees calculus in the world around him (actual equations and curves and so on) or something, from what I recall.

    Hmmm...on NPR they had a guy with autism (I know I can't spell). They guy recited Pi to like 20,000 decimals. But what is weird is that he doesn't see numbers like we do. He sees them as shapes and colors. When he sees a "1", he sees something glowing bright. So when he was reciting Pi, he wasn't thinking of numbers...he was calling out a landscape of shape and colors.

    Point being, the brain is weird :) But, yeah, if this kid is so smart that he breaks down the whole world into math...something is up.

    Yes, but the 18 year old kid isn't autistic. He is kinda an asshole, but then again, his only friend was a monster who was shot into space, so I can give him room for that.

    Fencingsax on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Algertman wrote:
    Sentry wrote:
    Not only that, but I like the idea of powers developing at puberty being the result of evolution, the idea being that mutants whose powers showed at birth were invariably killed by villagers or their families, so evolution recessed the trait until puberty.

    It adds a little... something extra to the whole thing, making it somehow more plausible... I mean, as plausible as it can be.

    doesn't matter, they would still be killed
    By that point, many would be capable of defending themselves or at least smart enough to hide the powers.

    robosagogo on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    wwtMask wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    I think the rebuttal is correct. Marvel has added further qualifications to the title of Mutant than merely possessing powers independent of outside forces like radiation and demons, and so you must meet them in addition to having powers. If you don't meet them, then you aren't a mutant.

    If Taskmaster wasn't listed in the 198 files, then I'd say he isn't currently a mutant since he is too high profile to escape notice or mention from SHIELD.

    I only disagree with this in that Taskmaster is a mutant in the biological sense, since he has an apparent mutation that gives him his power. He is not, however, a member of the Homo Superior group, as far as we know, and does not possess the X-gene, so he cannot be classified as an X-man or Mutant.

    It's splitting hairs, I know, but this revelation about Madrox and other "different" mutants, means that we have to be a lot more specific when we refer to different characters as "mutants".

    So, the question is then, canhis powers be supressed in the ways that others can be? Could they be detected? Can sentinals only detect mutant powers? Would Spider-Man be a blank to them? What about Captain America?

    I think any power can be suppressed. The problem with these "different" mutants is that their powers don't come from a common source, like the X-gene mutants, nor are the mutations necessarily the result of natural phenomenon. Taking that into account, detection and suppression would be on an individual basis and, as such, would probably preclude the use of Sentinels.

    The fact is, all humans are mutations to some extent, since we will all invariably have some sort of genetic mutation as a result of the evolutionary process. These mutations almost never affect us due to the redundancy of DNA. The X-gene, however, is a very prominent and unique identifier, which makes Sentinels possible.

    Also, Fencingsax, I'm not following why you think this idea is stupid. It's adding another layer of complexity to what has become, in my opinion, a somewhat stagnant idea. We've been working with the whole idea that only the X-gene gives powers for some time now. This revelation, however, gives the Mutant phenomenon a somewhat different spin and calls into question what really classifies a person as a mutant.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    wwtMask wrote:
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    wwtMask wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    I think the rebuttal is correct. Marvel has added further qualifications to the title of Mutant than merely possessing powers independent of outside forces like radiation and demons, and so you must meet them in addition to having powers. If you don't meet them, then you aren't a mutant.

    If Taskmaster wasn't listed in the 198 files, then I'd say he isn't currently a mutant since he is too high profile to escape notice or mention from SHIELD.

    I only disagree with this in that Taskmaster is a mutant in the biological sense, since he has an apparent mutation that gives him his power. He is not, however, a member of the Homo Superior group, as far as we know, and does not possess the X-gene, so he cannot be classified as an X-man or Mutant.

    It's splitting hairs, I know, but this revelation about Madrox and other "different" mutants, means that we have to be a lot more specific when we refer to different characters as "mutants".

    So, the question is then, canhis powers be supressed in the ways that others can be? Could they be detected? Can sentinals only detect mutant powers? Would Spider-Man be a blank to them? What about Captain America?

    Also, Fencingsax, I'm not following why you think this idea is stupid. It's adding another layer of complexity to what has become, in my opinion, a somewhat stagnant idea. We've been working with the whole idea that only the X-gene gives powers for some time now. This revelation, however, gives the Mutant phenomenon a somewhat different spin and calls into question what really classifies a person as a mutant.

    The problem is that Madrox is at least an X-gene at minimum, because he died (well, a clone died, but you get the idea) of the Legacy Virus.

    Fencingsax on
  • robosagogorobosagogo Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Moira MacTaggert died of the legacy virus.

    robosagogo on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Fencingsax wrote:
    wwtMask wrote:
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    wwtMask wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    I think the rebuttal is correct. Marvel has added further qualifications to the title of Mutant than merely possessing powers independent of outside forces like radiation and demons, and so you must meet them in addition to having powers. If you don't meet them, then you aren't a mutant.

    If Taskmaster wasn't listed in the 198 files, then I'd say he isn't currently a mutant since he is too high profile to escape notice or mention from SHIELD.

    I only disagree with this in that Taskmaster is a mutant in the biological sense, since he has an apparent mutation that gives him his power. He is not, however, a member of the Homo Superior group, as far as we know, and does not possess the X-gene, so he cannot be classified as an X-man or Mutant.

    It's splitting hairs, I know, but this revelation about Madrox and other "different" mutants, means that we have to be a lot more specific when we refer to different characters as "mutants".

    So, the question is then, canhis powers be supressed in the ways that others can be? Could they be detected? Can sentinals only detect mutant powers? Would Spider-Man be a blank to them? What about Captain America?

    Also, Fencingsax, I'm not following why you think this idea is stupid. It's adding another layer of complexity to what has become, in my opinion, a somewhat stagnant idea. We've been working with the whole idea that only the X-gene gives powers for some time now. This revelation, however, gives the Mutant phenomenon a somewhat different spin and calls into question what really classifies a person as a mutant.

    The problem is that Madrox is at least an X-gene at minimum, because he died (well, a clone died, but you get the idea) of the Legacy Virus.

    Ah, I see the problem. I know I've been mostly talking about "other" mutants, but I'm pretty sure Peter David didn't say that Madrox didn't have the X-gene. As I understand it, Madrox is either one of a subspecies of Homo Superior, or he is one of a precursor to Homo Superior. Neither of these precludes him from having an active X-gene. As with all complex biological functions, the manifestation of his power before puberty probably depends on one or more other genes being active in conjunction with the X-gene. This is probably the biggest mental hurdle to overcome in this discussion (or any discussion of genetics, really).

    Of course, not being a writer for Marvel, I can't really be certain of all of that, but it rings true relative to what has been put forth in X-Factor.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Um, I'm not nearly as versed in all this comics pseudo-genetic theory as some of you, but on the difference between DC's metagene and Marvel's X-gene: In DC, every human has a metagene, and it's latent until an enabling event activates it. In Marvel, only homo superior (leaving aside the question of Madrox or Nightcrawler for the moment) have the X-gene. Is that correct?

    Briareos on
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  • LandoLando Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    robosagogo wrote:
    Moira MacTaggert died of the legacy virus.

    I know she contracted the virus, but I sorta chalked up her death to injuries inflicted by Mystique's destruction of Muir Island. Besides, she didn't have any powers, so infection aside, her body wouldn't be able to be cannibalized, like somewhat like, say, Pyro, without the X-gene.

    Back on topic though. I'm really looking forward to this "different kinds of mutation" thing to be cleared up or retconned completely. Namor, and his "mutancy" aside, what about Apocalypse, who was born with his powers? Shit, his freakish looks at birth, are what got him abandoned in the desert in the first place.

    Lando on
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  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2007
    Lando wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    Moira MacTaggert died of the legacy virus.

    I know she contracted the virus, but I sorta chalked up her death to injuries inflicted by Mystique's destruction of Muir Island. Besides, she didn't have any powers, so infection aside, her body wouldn't be able to be cannibalized, like somewhat like, say, Pyro, without the X-gene.

    yeah, i don't remember exactly how the legacy virus worked, but couldn't humans carry it but it would just remain dormant in their systems?

    maybe not

    Servo on
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  • ServoServo Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2007
    oh right

    moira died because she got legacy-3, the mutated version of the virus that affected all hominids

    Servo on
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  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    I never thought that the definition of mutant in the Marvel Universe required that one's powers manifest during puberty. From what I remember, Professor X would say that a mutant's powers often manifest during puberty, but that there are many cases where powers would manifest earlier or right from birth.

    Briareos on
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  • MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Briareos wrote:
    I never thought that the definition of mutant in the Marvel Universe required that one's powers manifest during puberty. From what I remember, Professor X would say that a mutant's powers often manifest during puberty, but that there are many cases where powers would manifest earlier or right from birth.

    Yep. Up until recent X-Factor, they were the same. Now some guy says that people born with powers are a different type of mutant. I kinda like it, as Peter David uses the myths of Changelings to explain it.

    As other have said however, I think they are still mutants (X-gene), but that at the very least, this guy in X-Factor things they are special or different.

    Monkeydrye on
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  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Monkeydrye wrote:
    Briareos wrote:
    I never thought that the definition of mutant in the Marvel Universe required that one's powers manifest during puberty. From what I remember, Professor X would say that a mutant's powers often manifest during puberty, but that there are many cases where powers would manifest earlier or right from birth.

    Yep. Up until recent X-Factor, they were the same. Now some guy says that people born with powers are a different type of mutant. I kinda like it, as Peter David uses the myths of Changelings to explain it.

    As other have said however, I think they are still mutants (X-gene), but that at the very least, this guy in X-Factor things they are special or different.

    Well, "different type of mutant" doesn't sound so bad. They are the type where the power manifests during the earliest stages of development. That's not that hard to accept. I doubt, however, that this difference would be enough to classify the "powers right away" mutants as a sub-species of homo superior.

    On the other hand, it would be enough to classify their genome differently. For example, one might conclude that "powers right away" mutants have the X-1 Gene, and "powers manifesting later in life" mutants have the X-2 Gene.

    I think part of the problem here is that the guys writing these books probably have, at best, a very basic knowledge of genetic taxonomy. Differences in a gene that cause the manifestation of powers earlier or later in life would not necessarily indicate sub-species classification.

    Note: I also understand very little of genetic taxonomy, and I have not read this recent X-Factor stuff. I'm just trying to toss out a couple different ideas for how to think about this question. I also realize that trying to tack real genetic theory and evolutionary biology onto the Marvel Universe would pretty much destroy the entire "mutants are homo superior" concept.

    EDIT: Another thought on classification, the difference between the "powers right away" mutants and the "powers at puberty" mutants is one of genotype. It would be hard to judge whether the difference is one of phenotype, because that would depend on whether you are talking about Nightcrawler (obvious difference in phenotype), for example, or a "powers right away" mutant that otherwise appears to be human.

    Nightcrawler's mere existence is not cause to classify him as a sub-species of homo superior, unless there were lots of homo superior running around exhibiting the same phenotype (and also otherwise cut off from other homo superior so that the "Nightcrawler" phenotype and genotype are geographically isolated).

    Of course, this discussion is also why real scientific theory doesn't belong in the Marvel Universe, because "homo superior" are not, scientifically, a separate species. Thus, you can't talk about sub-species of mutants. Marvel Universe Mutants are each and all individual variations from the standard human genotype and phenotype without any other related factors that would allow them to be classified as a sub-species.

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  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Scooter wrote:
    bobgorila wrote:
    Madrox has had his since birth. As I recall this makes him a sub-species of homo superior, or a slightly different species all together, but essentially still a mutie.

    Which was probably the stupidest thing to be in X-Factor so far. I mean, they tried playing it up as if guys like Madrox and Nightcrawler weren't mutants at all but something completely different, which is just making up a really stupid complication. Personally I'm ignoring it until it goes away.


    Basically, you're a mutant if you're born with the X-gene. That's really all you need to say.



    I have my own question for the DC fans, is there any real difference between the 'metagene' or whatever DC calls it, and the X-gene?

    The X-gene is triggered automatically, while the metagene is either triggered in the same way as the X-gene, or by unusual situations, giving that person powers corresponding to the situation that triggered the gene.

    Yeah I've always heard it classified as:
    Mutant - Someone born with their powers and developing them at puberty. Wolverine, Cyclops, Molly Hayes, etc.
    Metahuman - Anyone who gains their powers through some outside source, or at least not a course of their bodies natural course of actions(i.e Cyclops is a mutant. As far as his body is concerned, the human eyes are supposed to shoot lasers.). Spider-man, the Hulk, and Mr. Fantastic.

    Of course I've seen these people get ultra anal and insist that Iron Man and others should be called "Assisted Human", if they wear armor, etc...so take those definitions with a grain of salt.

    The Muffin Man on
  • VerdancyVerdancy Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Well in a sense mutants shouldn't be considered a subspecies either, as they only differ in one gene (and trying to classify them by phenotypes would be a mess). Presumably Ur-mutants and the modern variety have the same X-gene but different control factors: either a seperate gene that represses/switches on the gene in one or the other, or some kind of RNA sequence that does the same thing.

    I guess the Celestials must have added in some crazy genetic protection to stop the Xgene getting degraded over the thousands of years between their experiments and the first mutants, which might tie into the "different type of mutants" reveal: possibly that was the original way they set up the mutants, and the "arrives at birth" thing is an unforseen mutation due to humanities crazy genetic variability. Because Illuminati#1 had a bunch of Skrulls talking about how they had mutants, but they were always put to death at birth. So maybe the X-gene was a sort of test for humanity "if you can stand to look after these horrible deformed offspring, you deserve the great powers they have" except an unforseen mutation jammed up the works. Seems to fit the Celestials style.

    Verdancy on
  • MonkeydryeMonkeydrye Registered User
    edited January 2007
    Again, thus far, the whole "Born with your powers" thing, is just one guy claiming it is different. And we are still learning who the heck this dude is.

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  • CrayonCrayon Sleeps in the wrong bed. TejasRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    And if no one has said it yet, Namor wasn't the first mutant. Apocalypse is generally the one that is touted as the first mutant, and behind him is some vampire chick.

    Crayon on
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