If Icefrog has to personally whip every poor donk on his dev team to get the game to where it needs to be then I don't care, because he's proven over the years that he knows more about what he's doing than anyone else in the genre (as far as competitive things go). All the extra drama is just that.
Well if their only concern is the ultra-competitive, insular hardcore DotA players, then I suppose they will be successful. But Valve games tend to attract a much wider audience than just ultra-hardcore players, so I sincerely wonder about the commercial viability of such a strategy.
Not saying that is Valve's plan, but the Game Informer article tends to make it seem like the gameplay is remaining more or less unchanged. The coaching system does sound interesting I suppose.
It's curious that all this negativity about Icefrog only popped up after the 2 games that were to compete with dota appeared. Before that there was almost nothing but nice things said about the guy. Interviews with high level dota players who have met him were always positive, and nobody else who worked with him on the maps has complained.
But really, who cares? The man puts out a product of surpassing quality. If he also happens to be a dick? Meh.
If would be interesting to see some new maps in the rotation eventually. Smaller ones for smaller 2v2s or the like. The basic map is wonderful the way it is; there is so much untapped potential, and people come up with new things to do all the time. There have been enough adjustments to the juke points and creep camps and base layouts over the years that it's never felt that stale. The metagame is more important for keeping things fresh.
If Icefrog has to personally whip every poor donk on his dev team to get the game to where it needs to be then I don't care, because he's proven over the years that he knows more about what he's doing than anyone else in the genre (as far as competitive things go). All the extra drama is just that.
Well if their only concern is the ultra-competitive, insular hardcore DotA players, then I suppose they will be successful. But Valve games tend to attract a much wider audience than just ultra-hardcore players, so I sincerely wonder about the commercial viability of such a strategy.
Not saying that is Valve's plan, but the Game Informer article tends to make it seem like the gameplay is remaining more or less unchanged. The coaching system does sound interesting
Why would it be a problem? It all trickles down, and there are few changes for the sake of high level competition that make that much of a difference for a basic player.
If Icefrog has to personally whip every poor donk on his dev team to get the game to where it needs to be then I don't care, because he's proven over the years that he knows more about what he's doing than anyone else in the genre (as far as competitive things go). All the extra drama is just that.
Well if their only concern is the ultra-competitive, insular hardcore DotA players, then I suppose they will be successful. But Valve games tend to attract a much wider audience than just ultra-hardcore players, so I sincerely wonder about the commercial viability of such a strategy.
Not saying that is Valve's plan, but the Game Informer article tends to make it seem like the gameplay is remaining more or less unchanged. The coaching system does sound interesting
Why would it be a problem? It all trickles down, and there are few changes for the sake of high level competition that make that much of a difference for a basic player.
At the very least they'd need a really solid ranked matchmaking system.
Let's be honest here, the DotA community is not the most forgiving place for new people.
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Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
Considering the coaching system they're implementing, I think Valve already is aware how insular and impenetrable the game can be, and I can't imagine they're not exploring ways to help ease players in.
(Though, I guess that involves coaches yelling and calling their charges "noob faggots" all the time...)
Well if their only concern is the ultra-competitive, insular hardcore DotA players, then I suppose they will be successful. But Valve games tend to attract a much wider audience than just ultra-hardcore players, so I sincerely wonder about the commercial viability of such a strategy.
Well what do you think it is that would appeal to casual players? What is it that's "too hard" for casuals in dota? Community aside, lets talk about the game.
Considering the coaching system they're implementing, I think Valve already is aware how insular and impenetrable the game can be, and I can't imagine they're not exploring ways to help ease players in.
(Though, I guess that involves coaches yelling and calling their charges "noob faggots" all the time...)
Which is kind of my problem.
If this is something that people do to gain more points and achievements, I can easily see it descending into precisely that kind of crap. Every "pro" player who thinks they're hot stuff basically enlists a bunch of new players and cusses the howling tar out of them for being so crap and pathetic and not following every instruction of mine to to the freaking letter and in 0.2 microseconds of my uttering it AARRRGH WHY ARE YOU SO FREAKING STUPID?!
EDIT: What I'm basically saying is that no matter how well intentioned your system is, I don't think you can make people not act like complete jerks. And most of the playerbase of any extremely competitive game is usually made up of complete jerks.
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GumpyThere is alwaysa greater powerRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
If those pictures released are what the ingame models are aiming towards
Well if their only concern is the ultra-competitive, insular hardcore DotA players, then I suppose they will be successful. But Valve games tend to attract a much wider audience than just ultra-hardcore players, so I sincerely wonder about the commercial viability of such a strategy.
Well what do you think it is that would appeal to casual players? What is it that's "too hard" for casuals in dota? Community aside, lets talk about the game.
You have know the abilities of 100+ characters, tons of items, what those items do, which items are good on which character, juke spots, etc.
There's tons of knowledge that players need to be good, without even talking about being able to do the mechanical stuff (i.e: last hitting skill)
Most important stuff would probably be a good tutorial that explains basics and fundamentals for new players, as well as good match making that avoids unbalanced (pubstomping) situations.
If Icefrog has to personally whip every poor donk on his dev team to get the game to where it needs to be then I don't care, because he's proven over the years that he knows more about what he's doing than anyone else in the genre (as far as competitive things go). All the extra drama is just that.
Well if their only concern is the ultra-competitive, insular hardcore DotA players, then I suppose they will be successful. But Valve games tend to attract a much wider audience than just ultra-hardcore players, so I sincerely wonder about the commercial viability of such a strategy.
Not saying that is Valve's plan, but the Game Informer article tends to make it seem like the gameplay is remaining more or less unchanged. The coaching system does sound interesting
Why would it be a problem? It all trickles down, and there are few changes for the sake of high level competition that make that much of a difference for a basic player.
At the very least they'd need a really solid ranked matchmaking system.
Let's be honest here, the DotA community is not the most forgiving place for new people.
Ehhh.
I'm more partial to tiered leagues for a game like dota. It's too easy to get stuck in a rut, playing the same heroes the same way with the same effectiveness, and you need to play with better players (or at least watch replays) to get better and learn new things.
Though I think the league requirements should be more than just a flat skill rating of some sort, like the PSR in HoN.
At least we know one thing for sure. HoN is getting screwed in the behind when this comes out. Unless they can pull something out of their magical thinking hats by the time 'sometime in 2011' comes about
You have know the abilities of 100+ characters, tons of items, what those items do, which items are good on which character, juke spots, etc.
There's tons of knowledge that players need to be good, without even talking about being able to do the mechanical stuff (i.e: last hitting skill)
Most important stuff would probably be a good tutorial that explains basics and fundamentals for new players, as well as good match making that avoids unbalanced (pubstomping) situations.
So... you think there are way too many heroes and items? Basically too much content? That's an odd complaint, but I understand it. I think the difference with dota-like games and something like say... starcraft, is that multiplayer starcraft has a tutorial, sort of (the single player) where you're slowly introduced to all the units and how they work. In dota you're just thrown in with 9 other players who know what the fuck they're doing and you have no idea what anything is. A tutorial and matchmaking like in SC2 or LoL would go a long way in fixing any complaints.
And there's nothing wrong with a high skill ceiling. Let the pros have their denies and creep blocks and what have you. The more little quirky things that very high level players can do to get an edge, the more skill matters.
I'm disappointed by the GI article. I'd had hoped for 'Valve's touch' on the DoTA formula and not just DoTA with better graphics and voice chat system.
But I guess the DoTA Allstars fans will be pleased in it being left untouched.
Haha yes. Built in voice chat. I don't think I'll play another game of League of Legends. Having to read and write text in a real-time game (or set up a friggin Vent server) makes me want to cry. I can wait for this.
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Agreed. I've been playing DotA for years, and I still hate kill xp denial (because I'm a pansy man that can't ever get the timing right). If new players get steamrolled starting from level 1, they'll pretty much miss out on the richness of content which makes DotA fun.
If new players are getting steamrolled, even at level 1, it's probably got nothing to do with denies. They're only really effective in games between relatively well matched players.
The game will also feature a ton of custom voice work. You'll get amusing lines from heroes as they deny the enemy team last hits on creeps, and champions who have backstory connections will trade quips when nearby.
I like the sound of that. It'll be a bit like L4D with the Survivor chatter. Makes thing feel a bit livelier.
100 characters, if all of them have suitable context-relevant quotes, that's gonna take a ridiculous amount of space. I'm wondering if they're going to end up doing any comics for it, and if the tone of the game's going to be TF2-style comedic or L4D-style serious.
Well, the first part is true, but I don't see how denies could ever be ineffective - if you can do it, then you do it. There aren't any situations where you'd say, oh denial is ineffective in this matchup, so I won't bother.
Because if you're so much better or worse than your opponent that you can just push them back to their fountain, kill them outright, or can't even leave your tower, then denies aren't going to be much of a priority (expect for keeping your lane from pushing too far). If you can't get rid of them then you have to stay in the lane and harass and get position, and that's when denying becomes more important and strategic.
I hope that valve doesnt place such a huge emphasis on the stat tracking as S2games has. Stat tracking ruins that bloody game.
Oh have they released gameplay screens already?
This will probably be just another HoN (pure dota clone) But with valve backing it so it will make a little (lot) more money. I can't see ithem completing redesigning the sequel. And with how bad TF2 and L4D2 were I don't really think valve cares about quality over $$$.
This will probably be just another HoN (pure dota clone) But with valve backing it so it will make a little (lot) more money. I can't see ithem completing redesigning the sequel. And with how bad TF2 and L4D2 were I don't really think valve cares about quality over $$$.
Hahaha, man. That's classic. TF2 and L4D2 being bad. By all means Valve, keep on releasing "awful" games like those.
RandomEngy on
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Look, sorry but hats don't make a good game good. And from everything I've heard about L4D2 it's L4D1.5 but that wasn't the point of my post. It's a personal opinion, feel free to keep buying and playing those games but in my opinion nothing stood out on either account.
But this is about DoTA2 and what I meant was, if this is just another HoN (even though I like this game) It won't be getting my money just because Valve is backing it. And please god don't put stupid ass hats in the game.
Hats don't make a good game bad, either. And maybe you don't like TF2 or L4D (1/2), but I would say that the majority of people who play it do. Calling either of them "bad" is an enormous stretch.
Look, sorry but hats don't make a good game good. And from everything I've heard about L4D2 it's L4D1.5 but that wasn't the point of my post. It's a personal opinion, feel free to keep buying and playing those games but in my opinion nothing stood out on either account.
But this is about DoTA2 and what I meant was, if this is just another HoN (even though I like this game) It won't be getting my money just because Valve is backing it. And please god don't put stupid ass hats in the game.
Calling it bad might be a stretch, but I guess what I really mean is neither game has shown any innovation on valve's behalf. They are fun games, but practical in their execution but maybe I just fail to see what makes them. But reading this article it does look like this is going to be nothing more than DoTA: Source, which isn't a bad thing but HoN already has this covered doesn't it? No doubt this will be a huge seller but I'm just hoping they don't try to charge 50$ for it when HoN is already priced at $30 IIRC.
Am I the only one who doesn't care at all about the Valve half of this project? It's nice that they've given Icefrog the chance to make dota a standalone game, and they'll be cooking up new art assets and such, but that's about it.
Well, if its from Valve people expect a certain amount of polish and support. Maybe they're not messing with the gameplay, but certainly the UI and community upgrades will be nice.
So it'll be HoN, but not shit. Sounds good if they can deliver. Only thing that seemed iffy from the article is having bots take over for leaver.
I liked HoN a lot. don't get the hate...
This will be far better than HoN though, since I can't see them not having:
rejoin on drop
persistent stats
leaver % and leaver penalties
achievements
decent in game voice chat
better graphics than both HoN and DotA
all 100+ DotA heroes
matchmaking (with separation for AT and RT hopefully?)
good replay system
it will be to HoN what HoN was to DotA (an improved UI, engine and better graphics) with the added advantage of all the dota heroes and the more complex/advanced metagame of dota and icefrog as lead designer!
I'm pumped for this, even though I dropped HoN for SC2 (not the same genre but I only have so much gaming time, and I usually only play 1 game at a time) this could be really really fantastic fun
You can bet that when it actually hits Europe will start replacing it in dota tourneys right quick. China? Who knows. It'll probably depend more on how gerana friendly it is.
It would be weird losing China. Chinese dota is such a different beast, but it's also very intense and important to the overall metagame.
Icefrog has said he's taking questions for another one of his too few and far between Q&As, so we'll be getting answers to more interesting questions than the Game Informer article bothered with. They'll be from the dota community and I'd be willing to bet that there will be questions about esports.
I hope they DONT have persistent stats. I just want games to start and go. Leavers should also not be penalized.
Persistent stats and leaver penalties FORCE players to play the game when they dont want to.
For example, in Hon when the enemy has raxed two lanes and the other team is just farming your heroes, one of your teammates decides taht no, he will vote no on every concede vote and just portal into the corner.
I have wasted hours of my life being FORCED to play a videogame. Its just wrong. I do not want stats.
Look, sorry but hats don't make a good game good. And from everything I've heard about L4D2 it's L4D1.5 but that wasn't the point of my post. It's a personal opinion, feel free to keep buying and playing those games but in my opinion nothing stood out on either account.
But this is about DoTA2 and what I meant was, if this is just another HoN (even though I like this game) It won't be getting my money just because Valve is backing it. And please god don't put stupid ass hats in the game.
Opinions people have on games they've never even played make me laugh. And I'm sorry, but TF2 is way more than just hats. If you dont like the gameplay thats one thing, but don't bitch about something thats just a fun addon to an already solid game.
On topic: the only thing Valve has ever done wrong, IMO, is take so damn long with Episode 3. So I'm extremely pleased that theyre behind this.
AND since this is using source, then you just know theres going to be someone down the road that makes a mod mashes it up with other source games/chars. which will be awesome.
What the game really needs is a way to force players to spread their wings after a certain level. Like a forced carry slot or something. After a certain point you should not be in a game with 4 or 5 hard support heroes, and every single player should be able to play at least half a dozen hard carries of various type.
Thinking more about China and esports I'd imagine they'd stick to wc3 dota. Icefrog has always hinted, and he's said firmly at least once, that he will not abandon wc3 dota. It'll be interesting to see how the two evolve side by side, especially with a new engine allowing things that wc3 won't.
I hope they DONT have persistent stats. I just want games to start and go. Leavers should also not be penalized.
Persistent stats and leaver penalties FORCE players to play the game when they dont want to.
For example, in Hon when the enemy has raxed two lanes and the other team is just farming your heroes, one of your teammates decides taht no, he will vote no on every concede vote and just portal into the corner.
I have wasted hours of my life being FORCED to play a videogame. Its just wrong. I do not want stats.
There's no reason they'd have to have the concede vote be unanimous. League has only 4/5 required to concede which I think is pretty reasonable. I wouldn't be surprised to see that turn up in DOTA 2.
Also, in no way is the game forcing you to play. It's just observing how likely you are to stick it out in games and grouping you with people with similar tendencies. If you view the thought of having to play with other people who act like you do as punishment, then it really is just saying a lot about the way you plan behave in games.
But we don't need to fight. People who hate stats have their own little league. Then complain about their games being ruined by people that leave at the first sign their team might not win.
ALSO: About TF2.
I think it is hilarious that the fact that you can wear purely decorative hats is enough to make some people hate the game. Like, they join a game and just get so angry because someone has the gall to be wearing a bowler hat.
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Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
Are hats really that srs bsns in TF2? I won't lie, I haven't played a lot since they started introducing those silly things (not for that reason, though).
I'm curious as to how they'll implement the network back-end. Does the Steamworks API support a standard server-client back-end? Hopefully they move away from Blizzard's pseudo-hybrid-limited-peer-to-peer system and allow players to re-connect to a game session if they are accidentally disconnected.
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Well if their only concern is the ultra-competitive, insular hardcore DotA players, then I suppose they will be successful. But Valve games tend to attract a much wider audience than just ultra-hardcore players, so I sincerely wonder about the commercial viability of such a strategy.
Not saying that is Valve's plan, but the Game Informer article tends to make it seem like the gameplay is remaining more or less unchanged. The coaching system does sound interesting I suppose.
But really, who cares? The man puts out a product of surpassing quality. If he also happens to be a dick? Meh.
If would be interesting to see some new maps in the rotation eventually. Smaller ones for smaller 2v2s or the like. The basic map is wonderful the way it is; there is so much untapped potential, and people come up with new things to do all the time. There have been enough adjustments to the juke points and creep camps and base layouts over the years that it's never felt that stale. The metagame is more important for keeping things fresh.
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Why would it be a problem? It all trickles down, and there are few changes for the sake of high level competition that make that much of a difference for a basic player.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
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At the very least they'd need a really solid ranked matchmaking system.
Let's be honest here, the DotA community is not the most forgiving place for new people.
(Though, I guess that involves coaches yelling and calling their charges "noob faggots" all the time...)
Well what do you think it is that would appeal to casual players? What is it that's "too hard" for casuals in dota? Community aside, lets talk about the game.
Which is kind of my problem.
If this is something that people do to gain more points and achievements, I can easily see it descending into precisely that kind of crap. Every "pro" player who thinks they're hot stuff basically enlists a bunch of new players and cusses the howling tar out of them for being so crap and pathetic and not following every instruction of mine to to the freaking letter and in 0.2 microseconds of my uttering it AARRRGH WHY ARE YOU SO FREAKING STUPID?!
EDIT: What I'm basically saying is that no matter how well intentioned your system is, I don't think you can make people not act like complete jerks. And most of the playerbase of any extremely competitive game is usually made up of complete jerks.
Then I'm happy
There's tons of knowledge that players need to be good, without even talking about being able to do the mechanical stuff (i.e: last hitting skill)
Most important stuff would probably be a good tutorial that explains basics and fundamentals for new players, as well as good match making that avoids unbalanced (pubstomping) situations.
Pretty much.
Here's an article that might explain things better
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/66007
Ehhh.
I'm more partial to tiered leagues for a game like dota. It's too easy to get stuck in a rut, playing the same heroes the same way with the same effectiveness, and you need to play with better players (or at least watch replays) to get better and learn new things.
Though I think the league requirements should be more than just a flat skill rating of some sort, like the PSR in HoN.
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I mean without the curbstomping.
So... you think there are way too many heroes and items? Basically too much content? That's an odd complaint, but I understand it. I think the difference with dota-like games and something like say... starcraft, is that multiplayer starcraft has a tutorial, sort of (the single player) where you're slowly introduced to all the units and how they work. In dota you're just thrown in with 9 other players who know what the fuck they're doing and you have no idea what anything is. A tutorial and matchmaking like in SC2 or LoL would go a long way in fixing any complaints.
And there's nothing wrong with a high skill ceiling. Let the pros have their denies and creep blocks and what have you. The more little quirky things that very high level players can do to get an edge, the more skill matters.
But I guess the DoTA Allstars fans will be pleased in it being left untouched.
I hope that valve doesnt place such a huge emphasis on the stat tracking as S2games has. Stat tracking ruins that bloody game.
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100 characters, if all of them have suitable context-relevant quotes, that's gonna take a ridiculous amount of space. I'm wondering if they're going to end up doing any comics for it, and if the tone of the game's going to be TF2-style comedic or L4D-style serious.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
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Oh have they released gameplay screens already?
This will probably be just another HoN (pure dota clone) But with valve backing it so it will make a little (lot) more money. I can't see ithem completing redesigning the sequel. And with how bad TF2 and L4D2 were I don't really think valve cares about quality over $$$.
Hahaha, man. That's classic. TF2 and L4D2 being bad. By all means Valve, keep on releasing "awful" games like those.
But this is about DoTA2 and what I meant was, if this is just another HoN (even though I like this game) It won't be getting my money just because Valve is backing it. And please god don't put stupid ass hats in the game.
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Show me on the doll where the hat touched you.
Okay, this made me laugh
Calling it bad might be a stretch, but I guess what I really mean is neither game has shown any innovation on valve's behalf. They are fun games, but practical in their execution but maybe I just fail to see what makes them. But reading this article it does look like this is going to be nothing more than DoTA: Source, which isn't a bad thing but HoN already has this covered doesn't it? No doubt this will be a huge seller but I'm just hoping they don't try to charge 50$ for it when HoN is already priced at $30 IIRC.
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Really, Blizzard should have done this ages ago.
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I liked HoN a lot. don't get the hate...
This will be far better than HoN though, since I can't see them not having:
rejoin on drop
persistent stats
leaver % and leaver penalties
achievements
decent in game voice chat
better graphics than both HoN and DotA
all 100+ DotA heroes
matchmaking (with separation for AT and RT hopefully?)
good replay system
it will be to HoN what HoN was to DotA (an improved UI, engine and better graphics) with the added advantage of all the dota heroes and the more complex/advanced metagame of dota and icefrog as lead designer!
I'm pumped for this, even though I dropped HoN for SC2 (not the same genre but I only have so much gaming time, and I usually only play 1 game at a time) this could be really really fantastic fun
any word on possible esports?
It would be weird losing China. Chinese dota is such a different beast, but it's also very intense and important to the overall metagame.
Icefrog has said he's taking questions for another one of his too few and far between Q&As, so we'll be getting answers to more interesting questions than the Game Informer article bothered with. They'll be from the dota community and I'd be willing to bet that there will be questions about esports.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Persistent stats and leaver penalties FORCE players to play the game when they dont want to.
For example, in Hon when the enemy has raxed two lanes and the other team is just farming your heroes, one of your teammates decides taht no, he will vote no on every concede vote and just portal into the corner.
I have wasted hours of my life being FORCED to play a videogame. Its just wrong. I do not want stats.
Opinions people have on games they've never even played make me laugh. And I'm sorry, but TF2 is way more than just hats. If you dont like the gameplay thats one thing, but don't bitch about something thats just a fun addon to an already solid game.
On topic: the only thing Valve has ever done wrong, IMO, is take so damn long with Episode 3. So I'm extremely pleased that theyre behind this.
AND since this is using source, then you just know theres going to be someone down the road that makes a mod mashes it up with other source games/chars. which will be awesome.
Thinking more about China and esports I'd imagine they'd stick to wc3 dota. Icefrog has always hinted, and he's said firmly at least once, that he will not abandon wc3 dota. It'll be interesting to see how the two evolve side by side, especially with a new engine allowing things that wc3 won't.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
There's no reason they'd have to have the concede vote be unanimous. League has only 4/5 required to concede which I think is pretty reasonable. I wouldn't be surprised to see that turn up in DOTA 2.
Also, in no way is the game forcing you to play. It's just observing how likely you are to stick it out in games and grouping you with people with similar tendencies. If you view the thought of having to play with other people who act like you do as punishment, then it really is just saying a lot about the way you plan behave in games.
But we don't need to fight. People who hate stats have their own little league. Then complain about their games being ruined by people that leave at the first sign their team might not win.
ALSO: About TF2.
I think it is hilarious that the fact that you can wear purely decorative hats is enough to make some people hate the game. Like, they join a game and just get so angry because someone has the gall to be wearing a bowler hat.
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