4 losses in a row this morning. Jesus christ. 4 toss in a row. Every single one - stalker/zealot/immortal push that rolls over everything I have. It hits around the 10 minute mark. 4-5 immortals. 5 or 6 stalkers. 3 or so zealots. I scout 2 gates, assume some early zealot pressure, which may or may not come. I'm forced to go roaches or throw down crawlers to defend it. While I'm trying to macro back up and start getting hydras out...that's exactly when they'll hit. 3 or 4 hydras just starting to come out, and my 10 or so roaches and smattering of lings just....melt. I can't get in to scout when I most need to. The attempt = loss of an OL to stalkers. If I scout 2 geysers on my initial scout I have to assume rays, and the extra queens I get to hold those off don't help my army any. While I'm always furiously trying to get up a second base to compete economically, they roll in. I can't tech hard enough to t2 in time without being seriously vulnerable to the early 6:00 pushes.
5 in a row now.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
I havent been finding collosi worth the cost, and they too, are made of paper, and attackable as both air and ground units, which sucks ass. immortals, however, rock out with their cock out.
tier 3, great weaponry, made of paper and the only unit in the game that can get attacked by any other unit, but cant defend against air.
You have to make sure you're in the right position to use it. I knew this player was just massing hydras. and FF + Colossi's huge range was the perfect counter there. Each unit has it's niche.
I find that as Protoss I only really go for Collossi against Zerg. Against Terran and Toss, Immortals are way more useful. Against Zerg, Immortals dont seem to be that great. Though, with the range boost and great macro, Collossi would be great against any ground units, however, for the cost you can get a couple immortals out there to start knocking down stalkers left and right.
If you scout it, one base VR should never beat you. It's incredibly easy to counter, because the counter units are way cheaper than the VR's, and by going early VR, the Protoss player has fucked his economy and ability to transition.
Yeah as an EZtoss player I've found this to be true. VRs are so fucking expensive for the glass cannons that they are. VRs are fantastic damage but are so fragile that having them as your sole unit is suicide.
It's so easy to shut down the fast VR with mass blink-stalker and then push ftw.
i really have to get better with blink. i think that cracked out zealots and blinked stalkers could destroy anything.
Blink-stalkers and crack-lots are great, but I just love sentry FF with colossi mixed into it. One of the replays in my sig shows how I shut down a mass hydra Zerg player with FF holding the hyrdas back and just BBQ'ing them with colossi. The guy just raged at me and left, one of the most satisfying wins I've had.
I havent been finding collosi worth the cost, and they too, are made of paper, and attackable as both air and ground units, which sucks ass. immortals, however, rock out with their cock out.
tier 3, great weaponry, made of paper and the only unit in the game that can get attacked by any other unit, but cant defend against air.
You have to use Colossi correctly. You can't put them up in the front, you need to use Sentries with FF and Immortals to screen them, and you absolutely need the range upgrade. They also have to be used against the right units: Light infantry is what they kill the fastest. Lings, marines, zealots. They are also good against things like Hydras and even Marauders if you have something beefier screening for them.
but they (along with carriers) are supposed to be Ps Siege Unit. Not mass-Tier 1 killer, thats HT's psi storm. You know, like the old Reavers, siege tanks and Guardians of old (and this is one of the units missing for Zergs - little effective siege)
4 losses in a row this morning. Jesus christ. 4 toss in a row. Every single one - stalker/zealot/immortal push that rolls over everything I have. It hits around the 10 minute mark. 4-5 immortals. 5 or 6 stalkers. 3 or so zealots. I scout 2 gates, assume some early zealot pressure, which may or may not come. I'm forced to go roaches or throw down crawlers to defend it. While I'm trying to macro back up and start getting hydras out...that's exactly when they'll hit. 3 or 4 hydras just starting to come out, and my 10 or so roaches and smattering of lings just....melt. I can't get in to scout when I most need to. The attempt = loss of an OL to stalkers. If I scout 2 geysers on my initial scout I have to assume rays, and the extra queens I get to hold those off don't help my army any. While I'm always furiously trying to get up a second base to compete economically, they roll in. I can't tech hard enough to t2 in time without being seriously vulnerable to the early 6:00 pushes.
mutaling? with blings?
maybe speedling and a carpace upgrade into bling into mutas?
id def ling against the immortals and try to bling the zeals dunno what you do about the stalkers honestly.. I'd just get more lings :P but im an avowed mutaling advocate i rarely go hydraroach and when I do I get stoomped
but they (along with carriers) are supposed to be Ps Siege Unit. Not mass-Tier 1 killer, thats HT's psi storm. You know, like the old Reavers, siege tanks and Guardians of old (and this is one of the units missing for Zergs - little effective siege)
I kinda disagree. Colossi are plenty good at being mass tier-1 killers.
but they (along with carriers) are supposed to be Ps Siege Unit. Not mass-Tier 1 killer, thats HT's psi storm. You know, like the old Reavers, siege tanks and Guardians of old (and this is one of the units missing for Zergs - little effective siege)
I kinda disagree. Colossi are plenty good at being mass tier-1 killers.
i agree with you, they are good mass tier1 killers. Not their blizzard-blessed use, but what the hell.
What's the conventional wisdom on which Forge upgrade to grab first if you're just doing the normal 3gate+robo build? I can never decide between shields and attack.
What's the conventional wisdom on which Forge upgrade to grab first if you're just doing the normal 3gate+robo build? I can never decide between shields and attack.
I'm not really sure what Idra could have done against that build.
Don't 14 pool 15 hatch every single game.
I'd say the losses had less to do with the opening and more to do with IdrA's inability to scout the Armory in the first game, and the Starport in the second. They were placed such that any Overlord scout would die before seeing them*, and there was a Rax/Factory wall in both games. The builds actually looked identical from IdrA's perspective, except for the second Factory in the first game (but he couldn't rule that out in the second without having vision of Silver's whole base). This really chimes in with what I've read IdrA complaining about: that Terran can wall off and deny Overlord scouts, meanwhile choosing any of a number of builds, many of which require very different responses by the Zerg.
*Technically IdrA could've scouted the Armory by skirting the bottom edge of the map, but he would've had to be specifically looking for something in that spot, and there was only a 40-second window between the Armory being placed and his Spire being placed, anyway.
edit: Incidentally, both games he opened with 15 pool + gas fast expand.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
but they (along with carriers) are supposed to be Ps Siege Unit. Not mass-Tier 1 killer, thats HT's psi storm. You know, like the old Reavers, siege tanks and Guardians of old (and this is one of the units missing for Zergs - little effective siege)
I kinda disagree. Colossi are plenty good at being mass tier-1 killers.
i agree with you, they are good mass tier1 killers. Not their blizzard-blessed use, but what the hell.
Actually, that is there Blizzard blessed use. That's why they gave them the big sweeping laser attack, they are suppose to be a mass T1 killer. That's their purpose.
I go 3 gate, robo 2 gass for immortals/stalkers (with transition to collosi if need be). So if you see 2 gas theres no reason to assume VR. Ive never really gone VR, ive only done it in response to things. Going gas heavy allows Toss to adjust to almost any build. Theres really no reason Toss shouldnt go heavy gas outside of an early zealot rush.
Going gas heavy hits the minerals a bit early, but you can make up for that by getting an extra sentry or two out there instead of zealots. Really, I dont know why you wouldnt go 2 gas other then zealot rush.
but they (along with carriers) are supposed to be Ps Siege Unit. Not mass-Tier 1 killer, thats HT's psi storm. You know, like the old Reavers, siege tanks and Guardians of old (and this is one of the units missing for Zergs - little effective siege)
I kinda disagree. Colossi are plenty good at being mass tier-1 killers.
i agree with you, they are good mass tier1 killers. Not their blizzard-blessed use, but what the hell.
I mean, keep in mind I'm not just trying to be contrary here, just to keep this discussion going, because I think it's interesting.
But I think it's completely irrelevant what a unit is "supposed" to do. For all we know, you could be absolutely right. If someone masses tier 1 maybe you are not supposed to build colossi to counter it. However, I don't think that the purpose a unit is "supposed" to have is relevant at all. I think part of a player's strength is in his ability to come up with creative solutions to problems on the fly, and to use his units and other resources in such a way that will get him out of a situation even if it seems like he is at an incredible disadvantage.
If you think of units as archetypes in their respective "purposes" then you use that paradigm as a crutch, when you really you shouldn't be looking at a unit's "purpose," you should be looking at its capabilities.
The planetary fortress rush, and defensive planetary fortress (not at an expo) is a good example of looking beyond the purpose of something and instead looking into its capabilities. Same thing with dropping mules onto enemy tank batteries to get the tanks to kill themselves, or using medivacs to heal your ally's brood lords, or using missile turrets to kill colossi.
I find that as Protoss I only really go for Collossi against Zerg. Against Terran and Toss, Immortals are way more useful. Against Zerg, Immortals dont seem to be that great. Though, with the range boost and great macro, Collossi would be great against any ground units, however, for the cost you can get a couple immortals out there to start knocking down stalkers left and right.
I've found that against a good terran, at least the threat of Colossi can be pretty important. Without them, bioball can be brutal and, with good ghost use, nearly uncounterable thanks to EMP ruining templar.
Early on zealots + stalkers + immortals can do pretty well, but against very large groups of marauders stim + focus fire + retreat + heal + repeat can really tear apart a ground force. Immortals lack the range and mobility to threaten really large groups of marauders without some fire support.
Of course air is always a solution, too many marauders leaves you open to Protoss air, but generally speaking I find that a T player who really wants to field marauders, marines, and ghosts can force me to get some colossi in response. Perhaps I just need to work on a faster air transition instead.
How many games do I need to play in order to get over the physical shaking and turning flush red due to the pressure of managing multiple Zerg hatcheries and their queens?
Lord Jezo on
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
How many games do I need to play in order to get over the physical shaking and turning flush red due to the pressure of managing multiple Zerg hatcheries and their queens?
Yeah but you can also go Templar. My micro isnt really up to par if I went that route, but in theory it should work pretty grand. Usually, if MMM beats me its in a relatively early stage of the game where Im not sure I couldve gotten a Colossus out.
But I definately can see the use for them against T.
Colossi against P though? I mean, I suppose it would help against zealots, but you are way to vulnerable to all the P heavy hitters you will see. I mean, immortals or VR would destroy.
Basically, colossi are a must against Zerg unless you notice them going heavy air. They have their uses quite often against T, but aren't do or die. And against P, im sure they have uses (like crawling up the side of a mountain, getting half the enemy to chase you then hopping down and using your 7 range to fry them.) but money is better spent on late VRs or early immortals.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I go 3 gate, robo 2 gass for immortals/stalkers (with transition to collosi if need be). So if you see 2 gas theres no reason to assume VR. Ive never really gone VR, ive only done it in response to things. Going gas heavy allows Toss to adjust to almost any build. Theres really no reason Toss shouldnt go heavy gas outside of an early zealot rush.
Going gas heavy hits the minerals a bit early, but you can make up for that by getting an extra sentry or two out there instead of zealots. Really, I dont know why you wouldnt go 2 gas other then zealot rush.
You shouldn't drop two gas right at the same time, it's a waste of minerals that early. You need those minerals for the gates and cyber core. I tend to get warp gates researching then worry about my second gas as I am laying my robo. By the time my robo is up, I'll have my second gas mining so I can start building immortals. I will usually make an early probing push with Zealots, just to see what there defense are like, then I will make a big push once I have out a couple of immortals.
Real early game though, when you're trying to get your gates and cyber laid down, spending the extra 75 minerals, and moving three more probes off of minerals in to gas, seems strange unless you're going for something like VR's that are super gas heavy.
What's the conventional wisdom on which Forge upgrade to grab first if you're just doing the normal 3gate+robo build? I can never decide between shields and attack.
This really chimes in with what I've read IdrA complaining about: that Terran can wall off and deny Overlord scouts, meanwhile choosing any of a number of builds, many of which require very different responses by the Zerg.
Or he could look at himself and not use the Terran's versatility as an excuse. A fast Zerg expansion is just asking to get cheesed, especially on Metalopolis and Lost Temple. His strategy is basically to outmacro the Terran and that opening doesn't do anything to stop an early push.
I'm pretty sure Colossi are meant exactly to be mass T1 killers. Their use in the Challenges, plus the Strong Against listings over at the official community site all point toward "Use these to kill lots of weak T1 infantry"
Oh, I dont mean at the same time. I usually dont have my second gate running until after I have 1 or 2 gates up, and either warp gates being built or cybernetics core about to pop. It depends on how zealot heavy i had to go in defense.
What's the conventional wisdom on which Forge upgrade to grab first if you're just doing the normal 3gate+robo build? I can never decide between shields and attack.
The answer is always attack.
See, I learned something valuable today. I've been almost always going with shields first.
Aint no way I'm ever winning a game again. My skill level is now WAY WAY below where I was in beta. How the hell did it get this way.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
I havent been finding collosi worth the cost, and they too, are made of paper, and attackable as both air and ground units, which sucks ass. immortals, however, rock out with their cock out.
tier 3, great weaponry, made of paper and the only unit in the game that can get attacked by any other unit, but cant defend against air.
I love them. They have range 9 with the upgrade, and with a wall of Stalkers in front of them to deal with air stuff they're very solid against blobs.
Here's a replay where I get an awesome moment where I run into two guys with all their marines in one huge blob - about 90 marines total. My two colossi roast them all in 20 seconds. I actually laughed out loud at that.
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ApogeeLancks In Every Game EverRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
I only got shiels first as toss if I KNOW I'm going air, since it helps both the cannons that I'll have (going air means you need defences) and the air units. Pretty rare outside of team games, though.
In other news, 12 3/3 cracklings can demolish a Nexus in about 10 seconds or less. Goddamn insane. It's just like 'Got your expo! Yoink!'
I'm pretty sure Colossi are meant exactly to be mass T1 killers. Their use in the Challenges, plus the Strong Against listings over at the official community site all point toward "Use these to kill lots of weak T1 infantry"
I tend to run 4-5 of them. They roast anything in two hits from all of them. Blowing up four siege tanks that are deployed next to each other? Just gimme four seconds.
As long as my screen of Stalkers is holding, it's a pure barbeque party.
What's the conventional wisdom on which Forge upgrade to grab first if you're just doing the normal 3gate+robo build? I can never decide between shields and attack.
The answer is always attack.
See, I learned something valuable today. I've been almost always going with shields first.
Shields are actually a super good thing to go with. However, attack is like, always useful as well.
Personally the only time I make sure to get something other than attack first is if I'm against Toss as Zerg, because the toss will almost certainly be going attack and armor makes a +1 zealot take 3 hits instead of 2 to kill a zergling.
Colossi are nice in that they have a pretty brutal "critical mass" threshold. Once you have about 4-6+ colossi with some support, the only thing on the ground that can touch is hordes and hordes of siege tanks. Otherwise your opponent best go air.
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
I'm still mad at myself for my loss yesterday. I scout. No wall in, but a forge going down.
I think "Cannon rush."
Check, no cannons in my base. Run in with speedlings, nothing else but cannons going down.
Think "Ok, I'll tech to broodlords super fast, take 2 other bases, and win." So that's pretty much all I do. Feeling super awesome, I've got the king of all economies, I've got my spire going down and nothing else 'cause I'm going to win this easy.
Then the 2 void rays attack, I go "oh. right" and lose.
I know how you feel. Sometimes I just wonder "where did all the good I had go?" I mean I was never great, but sometimes I go through entire chains of games where I think to myself "i have nothing and am playing like dirt, and I know it" and it's horrible.
At least for me that happens a lot when I am trying out new stuff- see if you can take it slow and go with what you know, maybe. That helps me a lot. Or maybe try fine tuning a build order. At least when things time up right you feel like you're making progress.
YMMV, of course, I don't know exactly what is causing you to play/feel that way, but stick at it, you are not alone
This is the kind of stuff I am looking for from Day9, he has so many videos that it's hard to sort through to find his training stuff that is hidden between his high level commentary stuff.
Posts
5 in a row now.
You have to make sure you're in the right position to use it. I knew this player was just massing hydras. and FF + Colossi's huge range was the perfect counter there. Each unit has it's niche.
but they (along with carriers) are supposed to be Ps Siege Unit. Not mass-Tier 1 killer, thats HT's psi storm. You know, like the old Reavers, siege tanks and Guardians of old (and this is one of the units missing for Zergs - little effective siege)
Joe's Stream.
mutaling? with blings?
maybe speedling and a carpace upgrade into bling into mutas?
id def ling against the immortals and try to bling the zeals dunno what you do about the stalkers honestly.. I'd just get more lings :P but im an avowed mutaling advocate i rarely go hydraroach and when I do I get stoomped
I kinda disagree. Colossi are plenty good at being mass tier-1 killers.
Everybody 6pools
i agree with you, they are good mass tier1 killers. Not their blizzard-blessed use, but what the hell.
Joe's Stream.
attack.
Joe's Stream.
*Technically IdrA could've scouted the Armory by skirting the bottom edge of the map, but he would've had to be specifically looking for something in that spot, and there was only a 40-second window between the Armory being placed and his Spire being placed, anyway.
edit: Incidentally, both games he opened with 15 pool + gas fast expand.
Actually, that is there Blizzard blessed use. That's why they gave them the big sweeping laser attack, they are suppose to be a mass T1 killer. That's their purpose.
The Immortal is the siege unit of Protoss.
Going gas heavy hits the minerals a bit early, but you can make up for that by getting an extra sentry or two out there instead of zealots. Really, I dont know why you wouldnt go 2 gas other then zealot rush.
I mean, keep in mind I'm not just trying to be contrary here, just to keep this discussion going, because I think it's interesting.
But I think it's completely irrelevant what a unit is "supposed" to do. For all we know, you could be absolutely right. If someone masses tier 1 maybe you are not supposed to build colossi to counter it. However, I don't think that the purpose a unit is "supposed" to have is relevant at all. I think part of a player's strength is in his ability to come up with creative solutions to problems on the fly, and to use his units and other resources in such a way that will get him out of a situation even if it seems like he is at an incredible disadvantage.
If you think of units as archetypes in their respective "purposes" then you use that paradigm as a crutch, when you really you shouldn't be looking at a unit's "purpose," you should be looking at its capabilities.
The planetary fortress rush, and defensive planetary fortress (not at an expo) is a good example of looking beyond the purpose of something and instead looking into its capabilities. Same thing with dropping mules onto enemy tank batteries to get the tanks to kill themselves, or using medivacs to heal your ally's brood lords, or using missile turrets to kill colossi.
I've found that against a good terran, at least the threat of Colossi can be pretty important. Without them, bioball can be brutal and, with good ghost use, nearly uncounterable thanks to EMP ruining templar.
Early on zealots + stalkers + immortals can do pretty well, but against very large groups of marauders stim + focus fire + retreat + heal + repeat can really tear apart a ground force. Immortals lack the range and mobility to threaten really large groups of marauders without some fire support.
Of course air is always a solution, too many marauders leaves you open to Protoss air, but generally speaking I find that a T player who really wants to field marauders, marines, and ghosts can force me to get some colossi in response. Perhaps I just need to work on a faster air transition instead.
I KISS YOU!
All of them.
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[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
But I definately can see the use for them against T.
Colossi against P though? I mean, I suppose it would help against zealots, but you are way to vulnerable to all the P heavy hitters you will see. I mean, immortals or VR would destroy.
Basically, colossi are a must against Zerg unless you notice them going heavy air. They have their uses quite often against T, but aren't do or die. And against P, im sure they have uses (like crawling up the side of a mountain, getting half the enemy to chase you then hopping down and using your 7 range to fry them.) but money is better spent on late VRs or early immortals.
You shouldn't drop two gas right at the same time, it's a waste of minerals that early. You need those minerals for the gates and cyber core. I tend to get warp gates researching then worry about my second gas as I am laying my robo. By the time my robo is up, I'll have my second gas mining so I can start building immortals. I will usually make an early probing push with Zealots, just to see what there defense are like, then I will make a big push once I have out a couple of immortals.
Real early game though, when you're trying to get your gates and cyber laid down, spending the extra 75 minerals, and moving three more probes off of minerals in to gas, seems strange unless you're going for something like VR's that are super gas heavy.
The answer is always attack.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/colossus
See, I learned something valuable today. I've been almost always going with shields first.
I think I lose my chance for a strong rush because I wait too long for more numbers.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
I love them. They have range 9 with the upgrade, and with a wall of Stalkers in front of them to deal with air stuff they're very solid against blobs.
Here's a replay where I get an awesome moment where I run into two guys with all their marines in one huge blob - about 90 marines total. My two colossi roast them all in 20 seconds. I actually laughed out loud at that.
In other news, 12 3/3 cracklings can demolish a Nexus in about 10 seconds or less. Goddamn insane. It's just like 'Got your expo! Yoink!'
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheThinkingGamer
Lots of good info in a small package here, especially for someone noobish like me.
Also, I tried to find useful stuff from Day9, but don't know what/where to look. Everything I found was way way over my head.
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
SjoW vs MorroW Viking cup finals.
Someone linked this last thread, it has literally changed the entire way I play. Totally worth the length:
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3732340/
Stream doesn't work.
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Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
I tend to run 4-5 of them. They roast anything in two hits from all of them. Blowing up four siege tanks that are deployed next to each other? Just gimme four seconds.
As long as my screen of Stalkers is holding, it's a pure barbeque party.
Shields are actually a super good thing to go with. However, attack is like, always useful as well.
Personally the only time I make sure to get something other than attack first is if I'm against Toss as Zerg, because the toss will almost certainly be going attack and armor makes a +1 zealot take 3 hits instead of 2 to kill a zergling.
I'm still mad at myself for my loss yesterday. I scout. No wall in, but a forge going down.
I think "Cannon rush."
Check, no cannons in my base. Run in with speedlings, nothing else but cannons going down.
Think "Ok, I'll tech to broodlords super fast, take 2 other bases, and win." So that's pretty much all I do. Feeling super awesome, I've got the king of all economies, I've got my spire going down and nothing else 'cause I'm going to win this easy.
Then the 2 void rays attack, I go "oh. right" and lose.
I know how you feel. Sometimes I just wonder "where did all the good I had go?" I mean I was never great, but sometimes I go through entire chains of games where I think to myself "i have nothing and am playing like dirt, and I know it" and it's horrible.
At least for me that happens a lot when I am trying out new stuff- see if you can take it slow and go with what you know, maybe. That helps me a lot. Or maybe try fine tuning a build order. At least when things time up right you feel like you're making progress.
YMMV, of course, I don't know exactly what is causing you to play/feel that way, but stick at it, you are not alone
Works now, but really laggy. =(
This is the kind of stuff I am looking for from Day9, he has so many videos that it's hard to sort through to find his training stuff that is hidden between his high level commentary stuff.
Add this to OP! Basics training videos!
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