I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
I think the point is that it was possible for Elizabeth to bring them to the 'root' and basically extinguish every possibility. They're not just time traveling or whatever, Elizabeth is actively manipulating the structure of the web of possibilities.
0
SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
I've been poking through subtitles and other data files in the game and found a few interesting relics of what I assume are canceled parts of the game:
-Experience points/leveling up
-Co-op
-Something called "SLC." I have no idea what it is, but it appears to be an online component and had its own sound files and "hub world" level.
-Clothing vending machine, I imagine like the ones in-game that are broken
-A list of clothing parts (head, chest, etc; more than the game currently has) then a list of body parts like brain, heart, lungs, etc. No idea what those would have been used for There appear to be "gear" attributes for all of those...which appear to correlate with what the game uses now: brain=hat, heart=shirt, arms=boots (??), lungs=pants (???), stomach=NOTUSED
-Saved game options
-A bunch of what I believe are unused player choice variables
also, RE: that songbird spoiler
wat
Some people on NeoGAF are claiming that that's the SFX from the cloak tonic, but several videos have the exact same noise at that point. What could that noise possibly be if it isn't Songbird?
Might just be a dolphin :P
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
Then explain the infinite lighthouses, why universes branch for other people (ie not just Booker, Comstock, and Elizabeth), and why universes would begin diverging at that moment in particular.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
Then explain the infinite lighthouses, why universes branch for other people (ie not just Booker, Comstock, and Elizabeth), and why universes would begin diverging at that moment in particular.
Universes are diverging constantly all the time. Every probability is expressed in a new universe. If an atom can move left or right, it creates two universes, one where the atom moves to the left and one where the atom moves to the right. You could have entire universes that are the same in every way except for which direction that single atom went.
Okay, I'm probably just being dim, but I don't get something...
So Booker and Comstock are both the same person. How then, can they exist at the same time, in the same world, and one is older than the other? Or did one of them get pulled into the other's world?
Ending spoilers:
Looks like your first question was answered, but as to the age thing, Booker and Comstock are the same age, but Comstock has been rapidly aging because of his exposure to the Lutece field. It also gave him cancer. I'm not sure if this is revealed as part of the main story or in voxophones somewhere.
Also ending spoilers:
"Booker, are you afraid of God?"
"No, but I'm afraid of you."
Was a nice bit of foreshadowing, since she essentially becomes omnipotent and omniscient, ie. a god, after the siphon is destroyed.
So my friend pointed this out to me and I thought I'd bring it up:
At the end when you leave Rapture in the Bathosphere, apparently Andrew Ryan and his descendants are the only people that can control it. Which would further reinforce the theory that you are this universe's version of Jack in BS1. There's always a man, there's always a girl, and there's always a lighthouse.
So my friend pointed this out to me and I thought I'd bring it up:
At the end when you leave Rapture in the Bathosphere, apparently Andrew Ryan and his descendants are the only people that can control it. Which would further reinforce the theory that you are this universe's version of Jack in BS1. There's always a man, there's always a girl, and there's always a lighthouse.
oh, no. Haha.
YOU'RE not Jack. You're Comstock... you MADE that city.
You're Andrew Ryan.
And it's your child who brings that city down, your child who is taken from you and experimented on by revolutionaries who want to use him as a symbol. Your child who represents the culmination of all the science in your marvelous city.
Jack isn't Booker. He's Elizabeth. (Remember, gender doesn't matter for alternate universe selves -- witness the Lucettes). Like Elizabeth, he's even idealistic and he follows along with a revolutionary who turns out to not have his best interests at heart at all... as Elizabeth believed in Daisy and used her powers to let the Vox have weapons, so did Jack blindly follow along with Atlas. And then in the end, you don't fit their narrative.
Also, you, who were designed to be a tool, kill your own father, in part at his own behest.
So my friend pointed this out to me and I thought I'd bring it up:
At the end when you leave Rapture in the Bathosphere, apparently Andrew Ryan and his descendants are the only people that can control it. Which would further reinforce the theory that you are this universe's version of Jack in BS1. There's always a man, there's always a girl, and there's always a lighthouse.
oh, no. Haha.
YOU'RE not Jack. You're Comstock... you MADE that city.
You're Andrew Ryan.
And it's your child who brings that city down, your child who is taken from you and experimented on by revolutionaries who want to use him as a symbol. Your child who represents the culmination of all the science in your marvelous city.
Jack isn't Booker. He's Elizabeth. (Remember, gender doesn't matter for alternate universe selves -- witness the Lucettes). Like Elizabeth, he's even idealistic and he follows along with a revolutionary who turns out to not have his best interests at heart at all... as Elizabeth believed in Daisy and used her powers to let the Vox have weapons, so did Jack blindly follow along with Atlas. And then in the end, you don't fit their narrative.
Also, you, who were designed to be a tool, kill your own father, in part at his own behest.
Yeah it's not a theory, they explicitly state that in the dialogue.
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
Then explain the infinite lighthouses, why universes branch for other people (ie not just Booker, Comstock, and Elizabeth), and why universes would begin diverging at that moment in particular.
Universes are diverging constantly all the time. Every probability is expressed in a new universe. If an atom can move left or right, it creates two universes, one where the atom moves to the left and one where the atom moves to the right. You could have entire universes that are the same in every way except for which direction that single atom went.
Atoms would have a very real effect on people, their personalities, decisions, etc. This implies no constraints on infinite possibilities.
You're trying to assert that a tiny event would have an inconsequential impact on the world. A tiny event times infinity, couldn't be described as inconsequential. No, it'd have a profound impact on its world.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I probably ought to respond to this as well.
Nothing implies that impossible things would happen. The laws of physics wouldn't break down. Things we'll never see happen may occur, but that's it. I'm talking about people walking through walls, or the spread of entropy seemingly reversing for a moment, but all of this is allow for by physics. They happen, but they're so rare it's all but impossible for us to experience them. Infinite possibilities doesn't mean that the strengths of the four fundamental forces or the power of dark energy would change.
Taranis on
0
FreiA French Prometheus UnboundDeadwoodRegistered Userregular
So my friend pointed this out to me and I thought I'd bring it up:
At the end when you leave Rapture in the Bathosphere, apparently Andrew Ryan and his descendants are the only people that can control it. Which would further reinforce the theory that you are this universe's version of Jack in BS1. There's always a man, there's always a girl, and there's always a lighthouse.
oh, no. Haha.
YOU'RE not Jack. You're Comstock... you MADE that city.
You're Andrew Ryan.
And it's your child who brings that city down, your child who is taken from you and experimented on by revolutionaries who want to use him as a symbol. Your child who represents the culmination of all the science in your marvelous city.
Jack isn't Booker. He's Elizabeth. (Remember, gender doesn't matter for alternate universe selves -- witness the Lucettes). Like Elizabeth, he's even idealistic and he follows along with a revolutionary who turns out to not have his best interests at heart at all... as Elizabeth believed in Daisy and used her powers to let the Vox have weapons, so did Jack blindly follow along with Atlas. And then in the end, you don't fit their narrative.
Also, you, who were designed to be a tool, kill your own father, in part at his own behest.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
Then explain the infinite lighthouses, why universes branch for other people (ie not just Booker, Comstock, and Elizabeth), and why universes would begin diverging at that moment in particular.
Universes are diverging constantly all the time. Every probability is expressed in a new universe. If an atom can move left or right, it creates two universes, one where the atom moves to the left and one where the atom moves to the right. You could have entire universes that are the same in every way except for which direction that single atom went.
Atoms would have a very real effect on people, their personalities, decisions, etc. This implies no constraints on infinite possibilities.
You're trying to assert that a tiny event would have an inconsequential impact on the world. A tiny event times infinity, couldn't be described as inconsequential. No, it'd have a profound impact on its world.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I probably ought to respond to this as well.
Nothing implies that impossible things would happen. The laws of physics wouldn't break down. Things we'll never see happen may occur, but that's it. I'm talking about people walking through walls, or the spread of entropy seemingly reversing for a moment, but all of this is allow for by physics. They happen, but they're so rare it's all but impossible for us to experience them. Infinite possibilities doesn't mean that the strengths of the four fundamental forces or the power of dark energy would change.
Bioshock takes place in a world with different laws of physics but regardless,
none of the incidents that occur in the game are impossible according to the physics of that multiverse. All those improbable things are possible, just unlikely, therefore it's entirely possible that Booker just happens to be in a universe where those improbably things happened by chance. Plus on a meta level, the players are manipulating probabilities. Whenever Booker dies (permanently) and we reload a game, it could be conceived as the Booker we were playing had really died and that by reloading we're just inhabiting a Booker in a universe where he hadn't died. In fact, we can conceive every player as inhabiting a different Booker in a different universe.
Also, I never said that tiny changes don't matter. My point was that because there are an infinite number of universes, there will inevitably be universes that are exactly the same in every way except for tiny insignificant differences. But I never ruled out the fact that there would be universes that are wildly different. In fact, there would be an infinite number of universes that are the same except for one or two atoms and there would be an infinite number of universes that are different in every way except for one or two atoms, as well as everything in between.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
Then explain the infinite lighthouses, why universes branch for other people (ie not just Booker, Comstock, and Elizabeth), and why universes would begin diverging at that moment in particular.
Universes are diverging constantly all the time. Every probability is expressed in a new universe. If an atom can move left or right, it creates two universes, one where the atom moves to the left and one where the atom moves to the right. You could have entire universes that are the same in every way except for which direction that single atom went.
Atoms would have a very real effect on people, their personalities, decisions, etc. This implies no constraints on infinite possibilities.
You're trying to assert that a tiny event would have an inconsequential impact on the world. A tiny event times infinity, couldn't be described as inconsequential. No, it'd have a profound impact on its world.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I probably ought to respond to this as well.
Nothing implies that impossible things would happen. The laws of physics wouldn't break down. Things we'll never see happen may occur, but that's it. I'm talking about people walking through walls, or the spread of entropy seemingly reversing for a moment, but all of this is allow for by physics. They happen, but they're so rare it's all but impossible for us to experience them. Infinite possibilities doesn't mean that the strengths of the four fundamental forces or the power of dark energy would change.
Bioshock takes place in a world with different laws of physics but regardless,
none of the incidents that occur in the game are impossible according to the physics of that multiverse. All those improbable things are possible, just unlikely, therefore it's entirely possible that Booker just happens to be in a universe where those improbably things happened by chance. Plus on a meta level, the players are manipulating probabilities. Whenever Booker dies (permanently) and we reload a game, it could be conceived as the Booker we were playing had really died and that by reloading we're just inhabiting a Booker in a universe where he hadn't died. In fact, we can conceive every player as inhabiting a different Booker in a different universe.
Also, I never said that tiny changes don't matter. My point was that because there are an infinite number of universes, there will inevitably be universes that are exactly the same in every way except for tiny insignificant differences. But I never ruled out the fact that there would be universes that are wildly different. In fact, there would be an infinite number of universes that are the same except for one or two atoms and there would be an infinite number of universes that are different in every way except for one or two atoms, as well as everything in between.
Oh. Hmm I think we might've been mostly in agreement all along.
Except I think the writers opened a plot hole by painting Booker/Comstock's possible baptism as the only pivotal moment that ultimately led to the development of their end game personalities. It contradicts too much to work.
In my mind, the story is consistent and well written except for the ending. The writers probably had too much to handle with the amount of game play available.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
Then explain the infinite lighthouses, why universes branch for other people (ie not just Booker, Comstock, and Elizabeth), and why universes would begin diverging at that moment in particular.
Universes are diverging constantly all the time. Every probability is expressed in a new universe. If an atom can move left or right, it creates two universes, one where the atom moves to the left and one where the atom moves to the right. You could have entire universes that are the same in every way except for which direction that single atom went.
Atoms would have a very real effect on people, their personalities, decisions, etc. This implies no constraints on infinite possibilities.
You're trying to assert that a tiny event would have an inconsequential impact on the world. A tiny event times infinity, couldn't be described as inconsequential. No, it'd have a profound impact on its world.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I probably ought to respond to this as well.
Nothing implies that impossible things would happen. The laws of physics wouldn't break down. Things we'll never see happen may occur, but that's it. I'm talking about people walking through walls, or the spread of entropy seemingly reversing for a moment, but all of this is allow for by physics. They happen, but they're so rare it's all but impossible for us to experience them. Infinite possibilities doesn't mean that the strengths of the four fundamental forces or the power of dark energy would change.
Bioshock takes place in a world with different laws of physics but regardless,
none of the incidents that occur in the game are impossible according to the physics of that multiverse. All those improbable things are possible, just unlikely, therefore it's entirely possible that Booker just happens to be in a universe where those improbably things happened by chance. Plus on a meta level, the players are manipulating probabilities. Whenever Booker dies (permanently) and we reload a game, it could be conceived as the Booker we were playing had really died and that by reloading we're just inhabiting a Booker in a universe where he hadn't died. In fact, we can conceive every player as inhabiting a different Booker in a different universe.
Also, I never said that tiny changes don't matter. My point was that because there are an infinite number of universes, there will inevitably be universes that are exactly the same in every way except for tiny insignificant differences. But I never ruled out the fact that there would be universes that are wildly different. In fact, there would be an infinite number of universes that are the same except for one or two atoms and there would be an infinite number of universes that are different in every way except for one or two atoms, as well as everything in between.
Oh. Hmm I think we might've been mostly in agreement all along.
Except I think the writers opened a plot hole by painting Booker/Comstock's possible baptism as the only pivotal moment that ultimately led to the development of their end game personalities. It contradicts too much to work.
In my mind, the story is consistent and well written except for the ending. The writers probably had too much to handle with the amount of game play available.
But it wasn't.
Elizabeth didn't take Booker back to the moment of his baptism. She took the amalgamation of all possible Bookers to their moment of baptism, and drowned them all.
It's there in the dialog when they reach the baptism site for the final time.
Booker: What is this? Why are we back here?
Elizabeth: This isn't the same place, Booker.
Booker: Of course it is, I remember - wait, you're not... you're not... who are you?
*Enter the multiple Elizabeths*
Elizabeths: You chose to walk away. But in other oceans, you didn't. You took the baptism. And you were born again as a different man.
Booker: Comstock.
Elizabeths: It all has to end. To have never started. Not just in this world. But in all of ours.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
Then explain the infinite lighthouses, why universes branch for other people (ie not just Booker, Comstock, and Elizabeth), and why universes would begin diverging at that moment in particular.
Universes are diverging constantly all the time. Every probability is expressed in a new universe. If an atom can move left or right, it creates two universes, one where the atom moves to the left and one where the atom moves to the right. You could have entire universes that are the same in every way except for which direction that single atom went.
Atoms would have a very real effect on people, their personalities, decisions, etc. This implies no constraints on infinite possibilities.
You're trying to assert that a tiny event would have an inconsequential impact on the world. A tiny event times infinity, couldn't be described as inconsequential. No, it'd have a profound impact on its world.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I probably ought to respond to this as well.
Nothing implies that impossible things would happen. The laws of physics wouldn't break down. Things we'll never see happen may occur, but that's it. I'm talking about people walking through walls, or the spread of entropy seemingly reversing for a moment, but all of this is allow for by physics. They happen, but they're so rare it's all but impossible for us to experience them. Infinite possibilities doesn't mean that the strengths of the four fundamental forces or the power of dark energy would change.
Bioshock takes place in a world with different laws of physics but regardless,
none of the incidents that occur in the game are impossible according to the physics of that multiverse. All those improbable things are possible, just unlikely, therefore it's entirely possible that Booker just happens to be in a universe where those improbably things happened by chance. Plus on a meta level, the players are manipulating probabilities. Whenever Booker dies (permanently) and we reload a game, it could be conceived as the Booker we were playing had really died and that by reloading we're just inhabiting a Booker in a universe where he hadn't died. In fact, we can conceive every player as inhabiting a different Booker in a different universe.
Also, I never said that tiny changes don't matter. My point was that because there are an infinite number of universes, there will inevitably be universes that are exactly the same in every way except for tiny insignificant differences. But I never ruled out the fact that there would be universes that are wildly different. In fact, there would be an infinite number of universes that are the same except for one or two atoms and there would be an infinite number of universes that are different in every way except for one or two atoms, as well as everything in between.
Oh. Hmm I think we might've been mostly in agreement all along.
Except I think the writers opened a plot hole by painting Booker/Comstock's possible baptism as the only pivotal moment that ultimately led to the development of their end game personalities. It contradicts too much to work.
In my mind, the story is consistent and well written except for the ending. The writers probably had too much to handle with the amount of game play available.
But it wasn't.
Elizabeth didn't take Booker back to the moment of his baptism. She took the amalgamation of all possible Bookers to their moment of baptism, and drowned them all.
It's there in the dialog when they reach the baptism site for the final time.
Booker: What is this? Why are we back here?
Elizabeth: This isn't the same place, Booker.
Booker: Of course it is, I remember - wait, you're not... you're not... who are you?
*Enter the multiple Elizabeths*
Elizabeths: You chose to walk away. But in other oceans, you didn't. You took the baptism. And you were born again as a different man.
Booker: Comstock.
Elizabeths: It all has to end. To have never started. Not just in this world. But in all of ours.
That's not an amalgamation. An amalgamation would imply that there were separate universes before that point for both Booker and Comstock. Before that point there was only one relevant universe.
She didn't merge those universes. That was the point before they split.
The man at the baptism was Booker and Comstock. That's the way it had always been.
When Booker says "No I'm both," he's saying at that point they were the same person. To begin with.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
Then explain the infinite lighthouses, why universes branch for other people (ie not just Booker, Comstock, and Elizabeth), and why universes would begin diverging at that moment in particular.
Universes are diverging constantly all the time. Every probability is expressed in a new universe. If an atom can move left or right, it creates two universes, one where the atom moves to the left and one where the atom moves to the right. You could have entire universes that are the same in every way except for which direction that single atom went.
Atoms would have a very real effect on people, their personalities, decisions, etc. This implies no constraints on infinite possibilities.
You're trying to assert that a tiny event would have an inconsequential impact on the world. A tiny event times infinity, couldn't be described as inconsequential. No, it'd have a profound impact on its world.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I probably ought to respond to this as well.
Nothing implies that impossible things would happen. The laws of physics wouldn't break down. Things we'll never see happen may occur, but that's it. I'm talking about people walking through walls, or the spread of entropy seemingly reversing for a moment, but all of this is allow for by physics. They happen, but they're so rare it's all but impossible for us to experience them. Infinite possibilities doesn't mean that the strengths of the four fundamental forces or the power of dark energy would change.
Bioshock takes place in a world with different laws of physics but regardless,
none of the incidents that occur in the game are impossible according to the physics of that multiverse. All those improbable things are possible, just unlikely, therefore it's entirely possible that Booker just happens to be in a universe where those improbably things happened by chance. Plus on a meta level, the players are manipulating probabilities. Whenever Booker dies (permanently) and we reload a game, it could be conceived as the Booker we were playing had really died and that by reloading we're just inhabiting a Booker in a universe where he hadn't died. In fact, we can conceive every player as inhabiting a different Booker in a different universe.
Also, I never said that tiny changes don't matter. My point was that because there are an infinite number of universes, there will inevitably be universes that are exactly the same in every way except for tiny insignificant differences. But I never ruled out the fact that there would be universes that are wildly different. In fact, there would be an infinite number of universes that are the same except for one or two atoms and there would be an infinite number of universes that are different in every way except for one or two atoms, as well as everything in between.
Oh. Hmm I think we might've been mostly in agreement all along.
Except I think the writers opened a plot hole by painting Booker/Comstock's possible baptism as the only pivotal moment that ultimately led to the development of their end game personalities. It contradicts too much to work.
In my mind, the story is consistent and well written except for the ending. The writers probably had too much to handle with the amount of game play available.
That's my point.
If there are an infinite number of universes then unless the Booker baptism was what creates the multi-verse then stopping it doesn't really mean anything in the true grand scheme of things. Even if you destroy an infinite number of Comstocks, there will still be an infinite number of Comstocks.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
Then explain the infinite lighthouses, why universes branch for other people (ie not just Booker, Comstock, and Elizabeth), and why universes would begin diverging at that moment in particular.
Universes are diverging constantly all the time. Every probability is expressed in a new universe. If an atom can move left or right, it creates two universes, one where the atom moves to the left and one where the atom moves to the right. You could have entire universes that are the same in every way except for which direction that single atom went.
Atoms would have a very real effect on people, their personalities, decisions, etc. This implies no constraints on infinite possibilities.
You're trying to assert that a tiny event would have an inconsequential impact on the world. A tiny event times infinity, couldn't be described as inconsequential. No, it'd have a profound impact on its world.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I probably ought to respond to this as well.
Nothing implies that impossible things would happen. The laws of physics wouldn't break down. Things we'll never see happen may occur, but that's it. I'm talking about people walking through walls, or the spread of entropy seemingly reversing for a moment, but all of this is allow for by physics. They happen, but they're so rare it's all but impossible for us to experience them. Infinite possibilities doesn't mean that the strengths of the four fundamental forces or the power of dark energy would change.
Bioshock takes place in a world with different laws of physics but regardless,
none of the incidents that occur in the game are impossible according to the physics of that multiverse. All those improbable things are possible, just unlikely, therefore it's entirely possible that Booker just happens to be in a universe where those improbably things happened by chance. Plus on a meta level, the players are manipulating probabilities. Whenever Booker dies (permanently) and we reload a game, it could be conceived as the Booker we were playing had really died and that by reloading we're just inhabiting a Booker in a universe where he hadn't died. In fact, we can conceive every player as inhabiting a different Booker in a different universe.
Also, I never said that tiny changes don't matter. My point was that because there are an infinite number of universes, there will inevitably be universes that are exactly the same in every way except for tiny insignificant differences. But I never ruled out the fact that there would be universes that are wildly different. In fact, there would be an infinite number of universes that are the same except for one or two atoms and there would be an infinite number of universes that are different in every way except for one or two atoms, as well as everything in between.
Oh. Hmm I think we might've been mostly in agreement all along.
Except I think the writers opened a plot hole by painting Booker/Comstock's possible baptism as the only pivotal moment that ultimately led to the development of their end game personalities. It contradicts too much to work.
In my mind, the story is consistent and well written except for the ending. The writers probably had too much to handle with the amount of game play available.
But it wasn't.
Elizabeth didn't take Booker back to the moment of his baptism. She took the amalgamation of all possible Bookers to their moment of baptism, and drowned them all.
It's there in the dialog when they reach the baptism site for the final time.
Booker: What is this? Why are we back here?
Elizabeth: This isn't the same place, Booker.
Booker: Of course it is, I remember - wait, you're not... you're not... who are you?
*Enter the multiple Elizabeths*
Elizabeths: You chose to walk away. But in other oceans, you didn't. You took the baptism. And you were born again as a different man.
Booker: Comstock.
Elizabeths: It all has to end. To have never started. Not just in this world. But in all of ours.
But that shouldn't matter either.
Because if there truly is an infinite number of universes then there are an infinite number of universes where Booker becomes Comstock through some other event so even if they somehow drowned all the different iterations of the baptized Bookers, there would still be an infinite number of Bookers who became Comstock by being baptized in a different place by a different priest or became Comstock by some other means.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
Then explain the infinite lighthouses, why universes branch for other people (ie not just Booker, Comstock, and Elizabeth), and why universes would begin diverging at that moment in particular.
Universes are diverging constantly all the time. Every probability is expressed in a new universe. If an atom can move left or right, it creates two universes, one where the atom moves to the left and one where the atom moves to the right. You could have entire universes that are the same in every way except for which direction that single atom went.
Atoms would have a very real effect on people, their personalities, decisions, etc. This implies no constraints on infinite possibilities.
You're trying to assert that a tiny event would have an inconsequential impact on the world. A tiny event times infinity, couldn't be described as inconsequential. No, it'd have a profound impact on its world.
I think this game does have a limited conception of "infinite."
If there are in fact an infinite number of universes, then unless the baptism was the point of divergence for all the universes, it wouldn't matter if Booker drowns. If the universe diverges infinitely all the time then there would already be an infinite number of universes where Booker goes through the baptism and an infinite number of universes where he doesn't, not to mention an infinite number of universes where Booker doesn't exist and an infinite number of universes where he's a completely different person. Making sure that Booker drowns during the baptism would prevent all the universes that spring up from this one iteration of Comstock but there are still an infinite number of universes where Booker didn't drown.
It seems there are constants, between stuff like #77, heads, and the ending (or voxes ingame, I can't remember now) talking about how there are certain things Booker (well people in general, but specifically Booker) just does not do. Like Row.
Random chance
Think about it, if every possible outcome for every possible event is expressed in its own universe then there would be universes where seemingly impossible things happen. You happened to be in a universe with those patterns, in fact, there would be an infinite number of universes with those patterns, but there would also be an infinite number of universes without those patterns.
I probably ought to respond to this as well.
Nothing implies that impossible things would happen. The laws of physics wouldn't break down. Things we'll never see happen may occur, but that's it. I'm talking about people walking through walls, or the spread of entropy seemingly reversing for a moment, but all of this is allow for by physics. They happen, but they're so rare it's all but impossible for us to experience them. Infinite possibilities doesn't mean that the strengths of the four fundamental forces or the power of dark energy would change.
Bioshock takes place in a world with different laws of physics but regardless,
none of the incidents that occur in the game are impossible according to the physics of that multiverse. All those improbable things are possible, just unlikely, therefore it's entirely possible that Booker just happens to be in a universe where those improbably things happened by chance. Plus on a meta level, the players are manipulating probabilities. Whenever Booker dies (permanently) and we reload a game, it could be conceived as the Booker we were playing had really died and that by reloading we're just inhabiting a Booker in a universe where he hadn't died. In fact, we can conceive every player as inhabiting a different Booker in a different universe.
Also, I never said that tiny changes don't matter. My point was that because there are an infinite number of universes, there will inevitably be universes that are exactly the same in every way except for tiny insignificant differences. But I never ruled out the fact that there would be universes that are wildly different. In fact, there would be an infinite number of universes that are the same except for one or two atoms and there would be an infinite number of universes that are different in every way except for one or two atoms, as well as everything in between.
Oh. Hmm I think we might've been mostly in agreement all along.
Except I think the writers opened a plot hole by painting Booker/Comstock's possible baptism as the only pivotal moment that ultimately led to the development of their end game personalities. It contradicts too much to work.
In my mind, the story is consistent and well written except for the ending. The writers probably had too much to handle with the amount of game play available.
That's my point.
If there are an infinite number of universes then unless the Booker baptism was what creates the multi-verse then stopping it doesn't really mean anything in the true grand scheme of things. Even if you destroy an infinite number of Comstocks, there will still be an infinite number of Comstocks.
Which makes the matter of Lutece's "twin" brother all the more troublesome. It can't be true, otherwise she wouldn't have a "twin" brother. I'm pretty sure she's much older than Elizabeth. Putting her universe's split seemingly before Booker/Comstock's.
Remember Elizabeth was born in 1893. The battle of Wounded Knee was in 1890.
Edit: Actually yeah, she has to be much older than Elizabeth. She helped create Columbia.
Really liked Elizabeth tagging along. She'd actually be in front of you a lot of the time, something I've never seen a game do. Also her "idle" animations are all great: leaning against something and resting, poking about and looking at stuff (as she's been locked in a tower her whole life) and finding lockpicks for you. And I will never ever tire of her throwing me things in combat especially when it's from one airship to another.
The one thing I did not like was the checkpoint-only save system, which seems to be spreading like cancer. Yes game, I would like to put you down and come back later at the same spot. No I do not like watching the screen like a hawk for a little save indicator, or checking my watch to see how far back the checkpoint was.
Still, overall quite good.
Profile -> Signature Settings -> Hide signatures always. Then you don't have to read this worthless text anymore.
I thought the question is "why is the baptism the only pivotal moment", but the game clearly states that the time and place where the Elizabeths are drowning Booker/Comstock is NOT the time and place of "his" baptism.
Again:
Booker: What is this? Why are we back here?
Elizabeth: This isn't the same place, Booker.
We, the players, are shown this river before, as a flashback to Booker's baptism. Now, presented it again, Elizabeth is telling us it's not the same place. So, then, what is it?
Elizabeths: You chose to walk away. But in other oceans, you didn't. You took the baptism. And you were born again as a different man.
Booker: Comstock.
Elizabeths: It all has to end. To have never started. Not just in this world. But in all of ours.
I'm interpreting this to mean that, like the lighthouses, it's a construct, or metaphor, for something far greater. All possible Comstocks, according to the information presented, arise from Booker accepting his baptism. The Elizabeths state quite clearly that their intent is to prevent this from happening in all possible universes at once.
But, this is NOT the location of "the" Booker's baptism; it's not a question of a singular Booker, who's baptism can fork into multiple divergent realities. There are an infinite number of Bookers who undergo an infinite number of baptisms, spawning infinite potential realities.
Constants and Variables. Let's assume a few constants that seem relatively well supported by the game. One constant is that Comstock only exists when Booker accepts baptism; the second is that Elizabeth is only born to a Booker that denies baptism. Logically:
- Comstock if and only if Accepted Baptism.
- Elizabeth if and only if Denied Baptism.
The Variable here is that the baptism doesn't have to occur; this would prevent the Comstock constant, however, this means that all Denial Bookers are prevented as well.
My money's on this whole scene being a creation of the Elizabeths, a construct that ties all infinite iterations of "Booker decides to get baptized" into a single moment, allowing her/them to prevent those timelines from progressing to either Constant.
I thought the question is "why is the baptism the only pivotal moment", but the game clearly states that the time and place where the Elizabeths are drowning Booker/Comstock is NOT the time and place of "his" baptism.
Again:
Booker: What is this? Why are we back here?
Elizabeth: This isn't the same place, Booker.
We, the players, are shown this river before, as a flashback to Booker's baptism. Now, presented it again, Elizabeth is telling us it's not the same place. So, then, what is it?
Elizabeths: You chose to walk away. But in other oceans, you didn't. You took the baptism. And you were born again as a different man.
Booker: Comstock.
Elizabeths: It all has to end. To have never started. Not just in this world. But in all of ours.
I'm interpreting this to mean that, like the lighthouses, it's a construct, or metaphor, for something far greater. All possible Comstocks, according to the information presented, arise from Booker accepting his baptism. The Elizabeths state quite clearly that their intent is to prevent this from happening in all possible universes at once.
But, this is NOT the location of "the" Booker's baptism; it's not a question of a singular Booker, who's baptism can fork into multiple divergent realities. There are an infinite number of Bookers who undergo an infinite number of baptisms, spawning infinite potential realities.
Constants and Variables. Let's assume a few constants that seem relatively well supported by the game. One constant is that Comstock only exists when Booker accepts baptism; the second is that Elizabeth is only born to a Booker that denies baptism. Logically:
- Comstock if and only if Accepted Baptism.
- Elizabeth if and only if Denied Baptism.
The Variable here is that the baptism doesn't have to occur; this would prevent the Comstock constant, however, this means that all Denial Bookers are prevented as well.
My money's on this whole scene being a creation of the Elizabeths, a construct that ties all infinite iterations of "Booker decides to get baptized" into a single moment, allowing her/them to prevent those timelines from progressing to either Constant.
Assuming that, then there'd be a plot hole. Constants like that cannot exist in a world of infinite possibilities. There's no reason why the player ought to believe that Booker couldn't become Comstock through other paths.
Regardless, infinity minus infinity is still infinity. So it's futile since there will always be infinite possibilities to account for.
This is highly relevant to the conversation and one of the core themes of the game, and is also a very very good documentary:
(though on its surface this documentary is unrelated to Bioshock Infinite, major spoilers can be inferred by my posting it. do not watch unless you've beaten the game)
The physics established in the game simply don't support the idea that you can and will arrive at any imaginable universe through infinite different paths.
Certain constants never change, implying a much less, well, infinite infinity.
It's still infinity, but one from which you can and do subtract specific subsets.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
The physics established in the game simply don't support the idea that you can and will arrive at any imaginable universe through infinite different paths.
Certain constants never change, implying a much less, well, infinite infinity.
It's still infinity, but one from which you can and do subtract specific subsets.
You've only inferred that from the last conversation whereas the rest of the game says otherwise. Furthermore, that's not what she said. She said that"s where it all changed, but not that it's only way you could arrive at that particular conclusion. Nor had she even said that that would be the only way to prevent Comstock, or that that was her intent. She would've only been talking about a subset of Comstocks and Bookers. Subsets of Comstocks that included a baptism wouldn't include those that hadn't. Branches happened both before and after the event, and infinity means they'd invariably end up with infinite Comstocks without even without a baptism.
The physics established in the game simply don't support the idea that you can and will arrive at any imaginable universe through infinite different paths.
Certain constants never change, implying a much less, well, infinite infinity.
It's still infinity, but one from which you can and do subtract specific subsets.
You've only inferred that from the last conversation whereas the rest of the game says otherwise. Furthermore, that's not what she said. She said that"s where it all changed, but not that it's only way you could arrive at that particular conclusion. Nor had she even said that that would be the only way to prevent Comstock, or that that was her intent. She would've only been talking about a subset of Comstocks and Bookers. Subsets of Comstocks that included a baptism wouldn't include those that hadn't. Branches happened both before and after the event, and infinity means they'd invariably end up with infinite Comstocks without even without a baptism.
It's a plot hole.
Nope, I've inferred my premises from the Lutece coin-flip exercise, the "he doesn't row" conversation, and Elizabeth's own "constants and variables" explanation of the game's quantum mechanics.
It's only a plot hole to the extent that you're intent on shoehorning real-life physics into a game that explicitly repudiates them.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
firewaterword has been kidnapped by Taranis and is being held for ransom! Solve the riddle to set em' free, or I'll hand em' over to Clamps!<br />
<br />
My GENEROSITY is far beyond that of the common rube<br />
Though that may be disputed by the one whom you call TUBE<br />
Which forumer am I?
The physics established in the game simply don't support the idea that you can and will arrive at any imaginable universe through infinite different paths.
Certain constants never change, implying a much less, well, infinite infinity.
It's still infinity, but one from which you can and do subtract specific subsets.
You've only inferred that from the last conversation whereas the rest of the game says otherwise. Furthermore, that's not what she said. She said that"s where it all changed, but not that it's only way you could arrive at that particular conclusion. Nor had she even said that that would be the only way to prevent Comstock, or that that was her intent. She would've only been talking about a subset of Comstocks and Bookers. Subsets of Comstocks that included a baptism wouldn't include those that hadn't. Branches happened both before and after the event, and infinity means they'd invariably end up with infinite Comstocks without even without a baptism.
It's a plot hole.
Nope, I've inferred my premises from the Lutece coin-flip exercise, the "he doesn't row" conversation, and Elizabeth's own "constants and variables" explanation of the game's quantum mechanics.
It's only a plot hole to the extent that you're intent on shoehorning real-life physics into a game that explicitly repudiates them.
I'm going by exactly what the game says. Using real life physics my interpretation would probably be much different.
The Luteces exist outside of spacetime, so I'm not sure how they support your argument. None of this proves the existence of constants as you're explaining them.
firewaterword has been kidnapped by Taranis and is being held for ransom! Solve the riddle to set em' free, or I'll hand em' over to Clamps!<br />
<br />
My GENEROSITY is far beyond that of the common rube<br />
Though that may be disputed by the one whom you call TUBE<br />
Which forumer am I?
Isy?
0
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
So about Elizabeth's powers
Am I right in thinking it's based on her finger being severed and stranded in a separate dimension from herself? That particular Elizabeth exists in 2 different places and that's what lets her open tears?
The physics established in the game simply don't support the idea that you can and will arrive at any imaginable universe through infinite different paths.
Certain constants never change, implying a much less, well, infinite infinity.
It's still infinity, but one from which you can and do subtract specific subsets.
You've only inferred that from the last conversation whereas the rest of the game says otherwise. Furthermore, that's not what she said. She said that"s where it all changed, but not that it's only way you could arrive at that particular conclusion. Nor had she even said that that would be the only way to prevent Comstock, or that that was her intent. She would've only been talking about a subset of Comstocks and Bookers. Subsets of Comstocks that included a baptism wouldn't include those that hadn't. Branches happened both before and after the event, and infinity means they'd invariably end up with infinite Comstocks without even without a baptism.
It's a plot hole.
Nope, I've inferred my premises from the Lutece coin-flip exercise, the "he doesn't row" conversation, and Elizabeth's own "constants and variables" explanation of the game's quantum mechanics.
It's only a plot hole to the extent that you're intent on shoehorning real-life physics into a game that explicitly repudiates them.
I'm going by exactly what the game says. Using real life physics my interpretation would probably be much different.
The Luteces exist outside of spacetime, so I'm not sure how they support your argument. None of this proves the existence of constants as you're explaining them.
Mmm? Stop me where I'm mistaken about what you're claiming.
You're arguing for an infinite set so thoroughly infinite that even if you completely extinguish the only evident pathway to a given outcome, there are infinite paths to every imaginable outcome and so other paths still exist to the same outcome no matter what, right?
For me the problem comes from the underlying assumption that infinite pathways exist to reach an existence that contains Comstock (maybe even that this is true of anything you can imagine)?
But this cannot be true by virtue of the fact that certain things which might seem able to branch are in fact immutable constants. You cannot make the argument that infinite earlier universes could branch across infinite variables in infinite ways. If this were true it might lead to your conclusion, but we know it is not true because the game flatly tells us that not everything can branch at all, not to mention the strong implication that variables which CAN branch are binary into one path or another.
And I would have to take the god-child at her word that when she gazes out at the full panoply of interminable branches, she does in fact understand correctly that closing off a certain fork will mold the constants and variables in such a way as to preclude all Comstock-inclusive universes from branching into being.
Now I do wonder why she seems to deem it necessary to drown my DeWitt, who definitely walked away from the baptism, rather than just the distinct DeWitt who decided to become Comstock but had branched no further into any alternative variables. But that's getting into my own nitpicking rather than your particular plot hole discussion.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
Am I right in thinking it's based on her finger being severed and stranded in a separate dimension from herself? That particular Elizabeth exists in 2 different places and that's what lets her open tears?
This seems like Lutece's best guess, yes.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
Are you in fact just arguing that you don't think constants exist?
It seems implicit in the rest of what you're saying.
I'm not sure what more you would ask for aside from evidence that certain constants never change in any universe, alongside Elizabeth explicitly telling us this to be so once she knows it for a fact.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
The physics established in the game simply don't support the idea that you can and will arrive at any imaginable universe through infinite different paths.
Certain constants never change, implying a much less, well, infinite infinity.
It's still infinity, but one from which you can and do subtract specific subsets.
You've only inferred that from the last conversation whereas the rest of the game says otherwise. Furthermore, that's not what she said. She said that"s where it all changed, but not that it's only way you could arrive at that particular conclusion. Nor had she even said that that would be the only way to prevent Comstock, or that that was her intent. She would've only been talking about a subset of Comstocks and Bookers. Subsets of Comstocks that included a baptism wouldn't include those that hadn't. Branches happened both before and after the event, and infinity means they'd invariably end up with infinite Comstocks without even without a baptism.
It's a plot hole.
Nope, I've inferred my premises from the Lutece coin-flip exercise, the "he doesn't row" conversation, and Elizabeth's own "constants and variables" explanation of the game's quantum mechanics.
It's only a plot hole to the extent that you're intent on shoehorning real-life physics into a game that explicitly repudiates them.
I'm going by exactly what the game says. Using real life physics my interpretation would probably be much different.
The Luteces exist outside of spacetime, so I'm not sure how they support your argument. None of this proves the existence of constants as you're explaining them.
Mmm? Stop me where I'm mistaken about what you're claiming.
You're arguing for an infinite set so thoroughly infinite that even if you completely extinguish the only evident pathway to a given outcome, there are infinite paths to every imaginable outcome and so other paths still exist to the same outcome no matter what, right?
For me the problem comes from the underlying assumption that infinite pathways exist to reach an existence that contains Comstock (maybe even that this is true of anything you can imagine)?
But this cannot be true by virtue of the fact that certain things which might seem able to branch are in fact immutable constants. You cannot make the argument that infinite earlier universes could branch across infinite variables in infinite ways. If this were true it might lead to your conclusion, but we know it is not true because the game flatly tells us that not everything can branch at all, not to mention the strong implication that variables which CAN branch are binary into one path or another.
And I would have to take the god-child at her word that when she gazes out at the full panoply of interminable branches, she does in fact understand correctly that closing off a certain fork will mold the constants and variables in such a way as to preclude all Comstock-inclusive universes from branching into being.
Now I do wonder why she seems to deem it necessary to drown my DeWitt, who definitely walked away from the baptism, rather than just the distinct DeWitt who decided to become Comstock but had branched no further into any alternative variables. But that's getting into my own nitpicking rather than your particular plot hole discussion.
No you've just discovered yet another plot hole.
"You cannot make the argument that infinite earlier universes could branch across infinite variables in infinite ways"
I can. It's still permitted by your argument. Infinite later universes can as well. Since later universes also branch.
Infinite branching means we'll get comstock without a baptism. Invariably. Infinitely.
The only applicable constants demonstrate which kinds of Bookers the Luteces have chosen.
Are you in fact just arguing that you don't think constants exist?
It seems implicit in the rest of what you're saying.
I'm not sure what more you would ask for aside from evidence that certain constants never change in any universe, alongside Elizabeth explicitly telling us this to be so once she knows it for a fact.
Nothing really new to the conversation, though, aside from the exact moment of Elizabeth asserting that there are constants and variables across the different universes.
And the game gives plenty of examples. For instance, the baseball marked 77 falling into Booker's hands was one such constant. Flipping heads was another. Songbird's existence.
Certainly the universe branches infinitely forward as time marches on, in the respect that it will never stop splitting, but those splits have some parameters that can be relied upon.
For that matter, Songbird stopping Booker from rescuing Elizabeth after her recapture was implied to be a constant, up until future-Elizabeth understood it and exerted her powers to break it.
Hell, there you go. Constants limit potential outcomes aside that Elizabeth can understand and reshape them.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
Posts
Random chance
Ending spoilers:
Also ending spoilers:
"No, but I'm afraid of you."
Was a nice bit of foreshadowing, since she essentially becomes omnipotent and omniscient, ie. a god, after the siphon is destroyed.
PSN: ChemENGR
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
- R. Lutece
Barriers to Interdimensional Travel
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
oh, no. Haha.
You're Andrew Ryan.
And it's your child who brings that city down, your child who is taken from you and experimented on by revolutionaries who want to use him as a symbol. Your child who represents the culmination of all the science in your marvelous city.
Jack isn't Booker. He's Elizabeth. (Remember, gender doesn't matter for alternate universe selves -- witness the Lucettes). Like Elizabeth, he's even idealistic and he follows along with a revolutionary who turns out to not have his best interests at heart at all... as Elizabeth believed in Daisy and used her powers to let the Vox have weapons, so did Jack blindly follow along with Atlas. And then in the end, you don't fit their narrative.
Also, you, who were designed to be a tool, kill your own father, in part at his own behest.
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
Yeah it's not a theory, they explicitly state that in the dialogue.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
You're trying to assert that a tiny event would have an inconsequential impact on the world. A tiny event times infinity, couldn't be described as inconsequential. No, it'd have a profound impact on its world.
Edit:
I probably ought to respond to this as well.
Nope.
Bioshock takes place in a world with different laws of physics but regardless,
Also, I never said that tiny changes don't matter. My point was that because there are an infinite number of universes, there will inevitably be universes that are exactly the same in every way except for tiny insignificant differences. But I never ruled out the fact that there would be universes that are wildly different. In fact, there would be an infinite number of universes that are the same except for one or two atoms and there would be an infinite number of universes that are different in every way except for one or two atoms, as well as everything in between.
Except I think the writers opened a plot hole by painting Booker/Comstock's possible baptism as the only pivotal moment that ultimately led to the development of their end game personalities. It contradicts too much to work.
In my mind, the story is consistent and well written except for the ending. The writers probably had too much to handle with the amount of game play available.
But it wasn't.
It's there in the dialog when they reach the baptism site for the final time.
Booker: What is this? Why are we back here?
Elizabeth: This isn't the same place, Booker.
Booker: Of course it is, I remember - wait, you're not... you're not... who are you?
*Enter the multiple Elizabeths*
Elizabeths: You chose to walk away. But in other oceans, you didn't. You took the baptism. And you were born again as a different man.
Booker: Comstock.
Elizabeths: It all has to end. To have never started. Not just in this world. But in all of ours.
She didn't merge those universes. That was the point before they split.
The man at the baptism was Booker and Comstock. That's the way it had always been.
When Booker says "No I'm both," he's saying at that point they were the same person. To begin with.
That's my point.
But that shouldn't matter either.
Remember Elizabeth was born in 1893. The battle of Wounded Knee was in 1890.
Edit: Actually yeah, she has to be much older than Elizabeth. She helped create Columbia.
The one thing I did not like was the checkpoint-only save system, which seems to be spreading like cancer. Yes game, I would like to put you down and come back later at the same spot. No I do not like watching the screen like a hawk for a little save indicator, or checking my watch to see how far back the checkpoint was.
Still, overall quite good.
Again:
Booker: What is this? Why are we back here?
Elizabeth: This isn't the same place, Booker.
We, the players, are shown this river before, as a flashback to Booker's baptism. Now, presented it again, Elizabeth is telling us it's not the same place. So, then, what is it?
Elizabeths: You chose to walk away. But in other oceans, you didn't. You took the baptism. And you were born again as a different man.
Booker: Comstock.
Elizabeths: It all has to end. To have never started. Not just in this world. But in all of ours.
I'm interpreting this to mean that, like the lighthouses, it's a construct, or metaphor, for something far greater. All possible Comstocks, according to the information presented, arise from Booker accepting his baptism. The Elizabeths state quite clearly that their intent is to prevent this from happening in all possible universes at once.
But, this is NOT the location of "the" Booker's baptism; it's not a question of a singular Booker, who's baptism can fork into multiple divergent realities. There are an infinite number of Bookers who undergo an infinite number of baptisms, spawning infinite potential realities.
Constants and Variables. Let's assume a few constants that seem relatively well supported by the game. One constant is that Comstock only exists when Booker accepts baptism; the second is that Elizabeth is only born to a Booker that denies baptism. Logically:
- Comstock if and only if Accepted Baptism.
- Elizabeth if and only if Denied Baptism.
The Variable here is that the baptism doesn't have to occur; this would prevent the Comstock constant, however, this means that all Denial Bookers are prevented as well.
My money's on this whole scene being a creation of the Elizabeths, a construct that ties all infinite iterations of "Booker decides to get baptized" into a single moment, allowing her/them to prevent those timelines from progressing to either Constant.
Regardless, infinity minus infinity is still infinity. So it's futile since there will always be infinite possibilities to account for.
(though on its surface this documentary is unrelated to Bioshock Infinite, major spoilers can be inferred by my posting it. do not watch unless you've beaten the game)
Certain constants never change, implying a much less, well, infinite infinity.
It's still infinity, but one from which you can and do subtract specific subsets.
It's a plot hole.
Though that may be disputed by the one whom you call TUBE
Which forumer am I?
It's only a plot hole to the extent that you're intent on shoehorning real-life physics into a game that explicitly repudiates them.
Clamps?
The Luteces exist outside of spacetime, so I'm not sure how they support your argument. None of this proves the existence of constants as you're explaining them.
Isy?
Mmm? Stop me where I'm mistaken about what you're claiming.
For me the problem comes from the underlying assumption that infinite pathways exist to reach an existence that contains Comstock (maybe even that this is true of anything you can imagine)?
But this cannot be true by virtue of the fact that certain things which might seem able to branch are in fact immutable constants. You cannot make the argument that infinite earlier universes could branch across infinite variables in infinite ways. If this were true it might lead to your conclusion, but we know it is not true because the game flatly tells us that not everything can branch at all, not to mention the strong implication that variables which CAN branch are binary into one path or another.
And I would have to take the god-child at her word that when she gazes out at the full panoply of interminable branches, she does in fact understand correctly that closing off a certain fork will mold the constants and variables in such a way as to preclude all Comstock-inclusive universes from branching into being.
Now I do wonder why she seems to deem it necessary to drown my DeWitt, who definitely walked away from the baptism, rather than just the distinct DeWitt who decided to become Comstock but had branched no further into any alternative variables. But that's getting into my own nitpicking rather than your particular plot hole discussion.
This seems like Lutece's best guess, yes.
It seems implicit in the rest of what you're saying.
I'm not sure what more you would ask for aside from evidence that certain constants never change in any universe, alongside Elizabeth explicitly telling us this to be so once she knows it for a fact.
"You cannot make the argument that infinite earlier universes could branch across infinite variables in infinite ways"
I can. It's still permitted by your argument. Infinite later universes can as well. Since later universes also branch.
Infinite branching means we'll get comstock without a baptism. Invariably. Infinitely.
The only applicable constants demonstrate which kinds of Bookers the Luteces have chosen.
Sorry. I couldn't help myself. :P
But never covering a single star
I'm WEATHER of a forum stripe
A pattern that you may find BIZARRE
Which forumer am I?
Any ways, I'm not sure what to point to aside from a few minutes into this video:
Nothing really new to the conversation, though, aside from the exact moment of Elizabeth asserting that there are constants and variables across the different universes.
And the game gives plenty of examples. For instance, the baseball marked 77 falling into Booker's hands was one such constant. Flipping heads was another. Songbird's existence.
Certainly the universe branches infinitely forward as time marches on, in the respect that it will never stop splitting, but those splits have some parameters that can be relied upon.
For that matter, Songbird stopping Booker from rescuing Elizabeth after her recapture was implied to be a constant, up until future-Elizabeth understood it and exerted her powers to break it.
Hell, there you go. Constants limit potential outcomes aside that Elizabeth can understand and reshape them.