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[BIOSHOCK INFINITE] Experience digital jingoism March 26th.

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    Viktor WaltersViktor Walters Registered User regular
    Finished the game. Here are my thoughts in sum:
    Bioshock Infinite is a beautiful but deeply flawed game, just as the first one was. It is also better than the first one. The ludonarrative dissonance is strong with this one, possibly due to a sort of uncanny-valley phenomenon where the immersion is excellent until it totally isn't. For instance, they have all the reason in the world for this universe to support health potions, but instead they have the player scarfing cakes and hotdogs to heal bullet wounds. The health kits are points in the right direction, but why even have the foodstuffs if you're going to do that? Eh.

    In terms of the setting and narrative on its own... The scenes and whatnot are gorgeous. There are some serious bugs which frustrated my original playthrough and ruined some of the gravitas, but the game just came out so those are forgivable. I felt compelled to find the answers in the game and so it succeeded in that aspect, yet for all the well-thought-out personality in the main characters the secondary characters feel sort of cardboard. I spent a fair amount of time scrounging for extra voxlogs and information so I don't feel like I didn't give that side of the narrative a fair shake. Daisy Fitzroy seems incidental. So does Fink. Some of the logic leaps and motivations, especially around the part where you're finding the gunsmith, require some major suspense of disbelief. The ending was poetic and beautiful but hammy in some aspects or a little too metaphorical and wishy-washy in others. It was very brave and potentially kills off the entire franchise, so I have to salute them for that.

    The gameplay is improved from the first one in some ways but not great in others. I was playing on a mouse and keyboard so some of the controls were weird and I couldn't exactly get used to them. Hit V for melee? Z for zooming? It made the fast-pace of the melee/up close combat simply frustrating rather than fun or difficult. Some battles were incredibly easy. Others were difficult and frustrating. I spent most of my time sniping, stunning, or possessing the enemies to avoid the shaky controls in melee. I might go back and play with a controller and see if that changes anything. I played on medium until a battle at the end which turned into essentially a slog for no reason and I just wasn't interested in wasting my time. At the beginning of my playthrough, the battles were exciting and most held real purpose to the narrative. In the last half of the game the actual combat felt more like a side-note next to the exploring and the story. Random battles would occur almost with no other purpose than to extend the gameplay time or provide a beat between one story reveal and the next. I'm sure it was supposed to communicate the chaotic nature of the PC's experience, but I didn't feel the tension of chaos so much as the tedium of a neurotic enemy.

    That said, the ludonarrative really worked in some cases. I felt immersed in the character, once I ignored some of the really bothersome elements because I began to pretend that all of it was a fantasy within Elizabeth's head so of course food can heal bullet wounds, blah blah blah. There were some really clever choices- having Elizabeth not need you to save her but still need you to kill the enemies, having her appear to run ahead and lead the way. Her lockpicking ability made her into a core asset rather than a sidekick- specifically for the hairpin locks which served no other purpose than to subtly remind you that Elizabeth helps you. Couple that cleverness with her throwing you incredibly useful mid-battle items and suchlike, the game really builds a sincere appreciation for her from the PC's perspective. That's incredible.

    In sum, as I said at the beginning, it's a beautiful but flawed game. They managed to not only change the context and core message of the first game (without ruining it) but to also communicate a solid, fascinating vision for the new game. Neither the characters nor the setting were over-wrought, and as a player I felt none of the usually cloying elements of steampunk settings get in the way. Hell, I forgot the game could even be called "steampunk"! It just seemed like a natural alternate history/sci-fi location. Maybe that has something to do with the lack of ridiculous amounts of goggles. There are plotholes aplenty, sure, and maybe they get filled in by some buttressing that I didn't find on my playthrough. It was a brave attempt at real, strong story-telling for a block-buster style videogame. I couldn't help but feel I would have enjoyed it better as a book or a graphic novel.

    And THAT is my BIOSHOCK INFINITE WALL O' TEXT. I could probably talk more about the individual characters, but then no one would ever read it.

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    HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2013
    The only thing I'm not clear on. (Major ending spoilers):
    So I understood that Lutece & Lutece started the events of the game because Robert Lutece wanted to give the girl back. And what they meant by that is obviously what then happens - stopping DeWitt from becoming Comstock meaning Booker never gave the girl up.

    But I didn't get their motivation for it? It was Robert's idea and Rosalind obliges him, what made him want to do it?

    Honk on
    PSN: Honkalot
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    heenatoheenato Alice Leywind Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    The only thing I'm not clear on. (Major ending spoilers):
    So I understood that Lutece & Lutece started the events of the game because Robert Lutece wanted to give the girl back. And what they meant by that is obviously what then happens - stopping Comstock meaning Booker never gave the girl up.

    But I didn't get their motivation for it? It was Robert's idea and Rosalind obliges him, what made him want to do it?
    I'm pretty sure it's guilt for starting this whole mess.

    M A G I K A Z A M
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    HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2013
    Yeah, that'd do it!

    Didn't consider it for some reason or other.

    Honk on
    PSN: Honkalot
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    HounHoun Registered User regular
    heenato wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    The only thing I'm not clear on. (Major ending spoilers):
    So I understood that Lutece & Lutece started the events of the game because Robert Lutece wanted to give the girl back. And what they meant by that is obviously what then happens - stopping Comstock meaning Booker never gave the girl up.

    But I didn't get their motivation for it? It was Robert's idea and Rosalind obliges him, what made him want to do it?
    I'm pretty sure it's guilt for starting this whole mess.

    Don't forget that
    Comstock had them "killed". So there might be some revenge mixed in there as well.

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    Lucid_SeraphLucid_Seraph TealDeer MarylandRegistered User regular
    The only thing I'm not clear on. (Major ending spoilers):
    So I understood that Lutece & Lutece started the events of the game because Robert Lutece wanted to give the girl back. And what they meant by that is obviously what then happens - stopping Comstock meaning Booker never gave the girl up.

    But I didn't get their motivation for it? It was Robert's idea and Rosalind obliges him, what made him want to do it?
    [/quote]
    I'm pretty sure it's guilt for starting this whole mess.

    [/quote]
    continued ending spoilers
    I may be remembering wrong, but I think throughout your interactions with the Lucetes you do get the impression that while they're mirrors of each other, they're very much not the same person, just like Booker and Comstock. I'd have to re-play the game to be certain, but I remember thinking from the beginning that Robert seemed the "kinder / more caring" one, more attached to events in general, while Rosalind was more FOR SCIENCE / destiny's locked in anyway so who cares. If I recall, he's the one who offers the bird while she offers the cage, for instance.

    Or maybe I'm reading too much into them.

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    HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Man I can not get over how much I loved this entire experience.

    PSN: Honkalot
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    BritishDavidBritishDavid Registered User regular
    The only thing I'm not clear on. (Major ending spoilers):
    So I understood that Lutece & Lutece started the events of the game because Robert Lutece wanted to give the girl back. And what they meant by that is obviously what then happens - stopping Comstock meaning Booker never gave the girl up.

    But I didn't get their motivation for it? It was Robert's idea and Rosalind obliges him, what made him want to do it?
    I'm pretty sure it's guilt for starting this whole mess.

    [/quote]
    continued ending spoilers
    I may be remembering wrong, but I think throughout your interactions with the Lucetes you do get the impression that while they're mirrors of each other, they're very much not the same person, just like Booker and Comstock. I'd have to re-play the game to be certain, but I remember thinking from the beginning that Robert seemed the "kinder / more caring" one, more attached to events in general, while Rosalind was more FOR SCIENCE / destiny's locked in anyway so who cares. If I recall, he's the one who offers the bird while she offers the cage, for instance.

    Or maybe I'm reading too much into them.[/quote]

    You're right. Robert wants to 'fix' time, Rosalind is less interested, the audio diarys support this.

    CjTxUSDXAAEzV5h.jpg
    Xbox | x Dredgen Yor x |
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    VeganVegan Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Well, from the very first scene, she's the one who's all "Why are we even bothering". In fact, I think it's implied that
    Robert has taken Booker to the lighthouse without her, since he has to explain to her that Booker never helps to row.

    Vegan on
    steam_sig.png
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    azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    MrDelish wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    End:
    Yeah I just sat and stared mouth agape when that happened, that was incredible.

    For being a really complicated plot I think I actually understand all of it after the ending parts. I feel completely satisfied by it, not a small feat to pull that off.

    Generally the whole experience was totally incredible, such a great attention to detail and ESPECIALLY in the characters.
    Like you enter a bar you don't even have to visit, sit down with a guitar and Elizabeth sings a song and brings an apple to a starving child.

    The characters just feel so complete in a way.
    orange

    This game is terrible for what its doing to me. It's making me want to play through it just to that point in the game, JUST so i can choose to eat the fruit and all the food in the room BEFORE i sit down with the guitar just to see what will happen.

    Stercus, Stercus, Stercus, Morituri Sum
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    MrDelishMrDelish Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    azith28 wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    End:
    Yeah I just sat and stared mouth agape when that happened, that was incredible.

    For being a really complicated plot I think I actually understand all of it after the ending parts. I feel completely satisfied by it, not a small feat to pull that off.

    Generally the whole experience was totally incredible, such a great attention to detail and ESPECIALLY in the characters.
    Like you enter a bar you don't even have to visit, sit down with a guitar and Elizabeth sings a song and brings an apple to a starving child.

    The characters just feel so complete in a way.
    orange

    This game is terrible for what its doing to me. It's making me want to play through it just to that point in the game, JUST so i can choose to eat the fruit and all the food in the room BEFORE i sit down with the guitar just to see what will happen.
    you can't

    MrDelish on
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    PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    MrDelish wrote: »
    azith28 wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    End:
    Yeah I just sat and stared mouth agape when that happened, that was incredible.

    For being a really complicated plot I think I actually understand all of it after the ending parts. I feel completely satisfied by it, not a small feat to pull that off.

    Generally the whole experience was totally incredible, such a great attention to detail and ESPECIALLY in the characters.
    Like you enter a bar you don't even have to visit, sit down with a guitar and Elizabeth sings a song and brings an apple to a starving child.

    The characters just feel so complete in a way.
    orange

    This game is terrible for what its doing to me. It's making me want to play through it just to that point in the game, JUST so i can choose to eat the fruit and all the food in the room BEFORE i sit down with the guitar just to see what will happen.
    you can't
    You can, however, accidentally steal the vigor potion upstairs, be forced to kill everyone in the bar and then wander down to where the child is cowering under the stairs and sing your song. Elizabeth even tries to coax the child from hiding.

    It certainly gave the whole thing a different flavor.

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    HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    MrDelish wrote: »
    azith28 wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    End:
    Yeah I just sat and stared mouth agape when that happened, that was incredible.

    For being a really complicated plot I think I actually understand all of it after the ending parts. I feel completely satisfied by it, not a small feat to pull that off.

    Generally the whole experience was totally incredible, such a great attention to detail and ESPECIALLY in the characters.
    Like you enter a bar you don't even have to visit, sit down with a guitar and Elizabeth sings a song and brings an apple to a starving child.

    The characters just feel so complete in a way.
    orange

    This game is terrible for what its doing to me. It's making me want to play through it just to that point in the game, JUST so i can choose to eat the fruit and all the food in the room BEFORE i sit down with the guitar just to see what will happen.
    you can't
    You can, however, accidentally steal the vigor potion upstairs, be forced to kill everyone in the bar and then wander down to where the child is cowering under the stairs and sing your song. Elizabeth even tries to coax the child from hiding.

    It certainly gave the whole thing a different flavor.
    Looks the same from what you're describing it. The kid is always hiding under the stair.

    PSN: Honkalot
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    Lucid_SeraphLucid_Seraph TealDeer MarylandRegistered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    azith28 wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    End:
    Yeah I just sat and stared mouth agape when that happened, that was incredible.

    For being a really complicated plot I think I actually understand all of it after the ending parts. I feel completely satisfied by it, not a small feat to pull that off.

    Generally the whole experience was totally incredible, such a great attention to detail and ESPECIALLY in the characters.
    Like you enter a bar you don't even have to visit, sit down with a guitar and Elizabeth sings a song and brings an apple to a starving child.

    The characters just feel so complete in a way.
    orange

    This game is terrible for what its doing to me. It's making me want to play through it just to that point in the game, JUST so i can choose to eat the fruit and all the food in the room BEFORE i sit down with the guitar just to see what will happen.
    you can't
    You can, however, accidentally steal the vigor potion upstairs, be forced to kill everyone in the bar and then wander down to where the child is cowering under the stairs and sing your song. Elizabeth even tries to coax the child from hiding.

    It certainly gave the whole thing a different flavor.
    Looks the same from what you're describing it. The kid is always hiding under the stair.

    ... he wasn't arguing that it wasn't the same, he was arguing that the context and tone becomes very different if you do that.

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    HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Sorry bout that, the "even tries to" made it sound like it.

    PSN: Honkalot
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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    I finished this after playing it for two days straight. Went through collecting Voxes and Kinetoscopes the day after that. I've finished everything but 1999 mode.

    Love the hell out of this game.

    Ending Spoilers
    The whole quantum mechanics/divergent universes thing at the end was awesome, even if it had the same human-centric flaws most stories that try it end up with.

    The Luteces are some of the greatest supporting characters I've ever seen in a videogame. Upon finishing the game and getting the whole thing processed, that boat conversation is absolutely amazing as an opener.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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    vegeta_666vegeta_666 CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2013
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    I linked a cool widescreen shot that I was using as my wallpaper yesterday. Today I have stumbled upon more! Here's an entire album of them; apparently this guy used some kinda no-clip cheat to completely get rid of the HUD and fly around at angles you can't get from regular game play. 2560x1080 resolution. Fantastic stuff in here.

    SPOILERS INCLUDED!
    Seriously, don't look at these until you beat the game.

    This game is ridiculously good looking

    I'd like to point out there are @jim2point0's, he's on the forum in the Screenshot thread!

    Here's another link to his images, probably a bit better quality as well (they're from Flickr, also spoilers!): http://www.flickriver.com/photos/jim2point0/sets/72157633091350960/

    vegeta_666 on
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    Steam: abunchofdaftpunk | PSN: noautomobilesgo | Lastfm: sjchszeppelin | Backloggery: colincummings | 3DS FC: 1392-6019-0219 |
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    GeneParkGenePark Registered User new member
    First time poster, long time PA forums lurker. Love the conversation that goes on here. Never felt the need to post, until Bioshock Infinite of course.

    One thing that bothers me:
    If Booker and Elizabeth were jumping realities to the point where they even entered one where Booker was a martyr, that means there was another version of Elizabeth somewhere in that final reality where they took down Monument Island and the Siphon with Songbird. So I assume that means that Elizabeth was still trapped there?

    But then the head was also blown off in that other reality too. So where was the other Elizabeth?

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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    GenePark wrote: »
    First time poster, long time PA forums lurker. Love the conversation that goes on here. Never felt the need to post, until Bioshock Infinite of course.

    One thing that bothers me:
    If Booker and Elizabeth were jumping realities to the point where they even entered one where Booker was a martyr, that means there was another version of Elizabeth somewhere in that final reality where they took down Monument Island and the Siphon with Songbird. So I assume that means that Elizabeth was still trapped there?

    But then the head was also blown off in that other reality too. So where was the other Elizabeth?
    I have a theory about that.
    Given the infinite nature of the branching realities, there doesn't need to be a one-to-one ratio of Comstock/Columbia realities to Booker/Anna realities. It seems possible or even likely that the Luteces (or just Robert) tried multiple times in the same Columbia with different Bookers. With that in mind, the martyr Booker might have gotten to Monument Island after another Booker had successfully broken Liz out of there, explaining the smoking wreckage.

    Or that damage happened after the fact from another source and Comstock had just moved her and she's there somewhere. Maybe Paris. It's impossible to tell with the information we have, at least that I'm aware of.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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    CrashtardCrashtard Registered User regular
    MrDelish wrote: »
    azith28 wrote: »
    MrDelish wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    End:
    Yeah I just sat and stared mouth agape when that happened, that was incredible.

    For being a really complicated plot I think I actually understand all of it after the ending parts. I feel completely satisfied by it, not a small feat to pull that off.

    Generally the whole experience was totally incredible, such a great attention to detail and ESPECIALLY in the characters.
    Like you enter a bar you don't even have to visit, sit down with a guitar and Elizabeth sings a song and brings an apple to a starving child.

    The characters just feel so complete in a way.
    orange

    This game is terrible for what its doing to me. It's making me want to play through it just to that point in the game, JUST so i can choose to eat the fruit and all the food in the room BEFORE i sit down with the guitar just to see what will happen.
    you can't
    You can, however, accidentally steal the vigor potion upstairs, be forced to kill everyone in the bar and then wander down to where the child is cowering under the stairs and sing your song. Elizabeth even tries to coax the child from hiding.

    It certainly gave the whole thing a different flavor.

    This was the scene that I experienced. I killed everyone upstairs and then found him hiding. I want to see the other version of that now.

    I pinky swear that we will not screw you.

    Crashtard.jpg
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    DeaderinredDeaderinred Registered User regular
    he is always hiding no matter what.

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    GeneParkGenePark Registered User new member
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    GenePark wrote: »
    First time poster, long time PA forums lurker. Love the conversation that goes on here. Never felt the need to post, until Bioshock Infinite of course.

    One thing that bothers me:
    If Booker and Elizabeth were jumping realities to the point where they even entered one where Booker was a martyr, that means there was another version of Elizabeth somewhere in that final reality where they took down Monument Island and the Siphon with Songbird. So I assume that means that Elizabeth was still trapped there?

    But then the head was also blown off in that other reality too. So where was the other Elizabeth?
    I have a theory about that.
    Given the infinite nature of the branching realities, there doesn't need to be a one-to-one ratio of Comstock/Columbia realities to Booker/Anna realities. It seems possible or even likely that the Luteces (or just Robert) tried multiple times in the same Columbia with different Bookers. With that in mind, the martyr Booker might have gotten to Monument Island after another Booker had successfully broken Liz out of there, explaining the smoking wreckage.

    Or that damage happened after the fact from another source and Comstock had just moved her and she's there somewhere. Maybe Paris. It's impossible to tell with the information we have, at least that I'm aware of.

    Very cool. I like that idea, thanks for that. I guess the basics of the entire concept gives carte blanche to explain away many things.

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    SevorakSevorak Registered User regular
    elevature wrote: »
    I know this is impossible, but it would be really cool (ending spoilers):
    If they had had even some of this game in mind when making Bioshock, and if there was a point in Bioshock where you could look out a window and see Songbird's corpse at the bottom of the ocean. And no one knew what it was at the time, but it had been there all along.

    Well actually,

    steam_sig.png 3DS: 0748-2282-4229
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    GeneParkGenePark Registered User new member
    I didn't even think about the correlations, but here, what do you think?

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    DeaderinredDeaderinred Registered User regular
    oh wow. nice little things at the start you notice more if after finishing the game...
    when you first see the lucete statue... its robert and then it changes into roslind. first time i saw it i figured it was just fancy columbia stuff going on. does this mean robert was here first instead of roslind?

    also, the first time you speak to comstock? you get a fucking nosebleed. i was like holy shit.

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    heenatoheenato Alice Leywind Registered User regular
    oh wow. nice little things at the start you notice more if after finishing the game...
    when you first see the lucete statue... its robert and then it changes into roslind. first time i saw it i figured it was just fancy columbia stuff going on. does this mean robert was here first instead of roslind?

    also, the first time you speak to comstock? you get a fucking nosebleed. i was like holy shit.
    Yeah. The same. I didn't notice any of that before, and was blown away.

    Also, one of the first voxophones you find in the game
    Comstock is talking about baptisms and redemption. Becoming a different man.

    M A G I K A Z A M
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    MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    I finished the game a couple of hours ago now, and I find that I'm totally blown away. I'm completely impressed that a video game was able to have a story this deep and well-crafted. Spoiler free thoughts follow:

    This game was such a wonderful experience. The music, the sights, the world: I found myself just wanting to drink it in, to walk every corner, to look in every nook. There is beauty packed into every corner of this game -- and not just the nice parts. One of my favorite parts of the game was when we ventured to a place where poor people lived, and there was a little girl and a boy singing a song. Fantastic stuff.

    The worst parts of the game are when there are lots of bad guys and no civilians. And there's more of that towards the end. Even then, however, I was still on such a high from the best-realized parts that I didn't mind too much.

    Elizabeth is fantastic. I found myself talking to her, in real life, at my computer. I found myself saying "Ready, girl?" once we were finished with a room and she was off in a corner looking at something. She'd asked me if I wanted a quarter and I'd say, "Sure!" It just felt natural to respond to her that way.

    The developers have crafted the finest world that I've ever experienced in a video game. And I'm sad that I'll never get another first experience.

    My not-so-positive thoughts:
    - I had a problem with the violence. Maybe that's part of what the game's trying to say, but for me, it was too much. I couldn't handle using persuasion -- I don't want to see that suicide animation. I tried not to use executions, or if I did I'd look away from the screen. I never used the Crow's ability. I tended to use weapons that caused the least amount of visual pain.

    - The combat became a slog towards the end. Before that I was feeling good -- but once I hit Mother Ghost, I was ready for it to be done. It's one note and it isn't the best part of the game.

    Both of the above points makes me wish that Ken Levine's next game should be something other than a shooter. Make it an adventure game, or an RPG, or just an interactive story. I want to experience his stories, but his combat I could live without.

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    MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Melkster wrote: »
    Okay.

    Just alt-tabbed from the game.

    I'm okay. I'm okay.

    Transcript from my ongoing conversation with @meeksa
    Melkster: 'why yes i will eat this hot dog thats been in this credenza for god knows how long'
    mEEks: Booker straight up eats food out of garbage cans
    mEEks: And toilets
    Melkster: OH MY JESUS FUCKING CHRIST
    Melkster: OH DEAR GOD
    mEEks: HAHAHAHA YESSSSSS
    Melkster: Im gonna have a nighmare about that
    Melkster: fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
    Melkster: turn around
    mEEks: hahahahaha
    Melkster: and that fucking thing
    Melkster: is right behind me
    Melkster: god damnit
    mEEks: I knew there was a huge jump scare in the game at some point
    mEEks: So I kept expecting it everywhere
    mEEks: And it STILL got me
    Melkster: fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck


    Anyone wanna guess where this happened?
    The one in Comstock House. It didn't scare me as much as it would have if I hadn't known about it.

    Bingo.

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    MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    So... Can we talk about the game's themes? For me, that's far more interesting than the plot, as wonderful as it is --

    I read this article that @meeksa sent me, and I find myself agreeing with it, mostly.

    End game spoilers follow:
    I agree with the article when it says that the primary theme of the story was that you can't wash away the past. And this is showcased in the ending, when you find out that in the late 1800's, Dewitt is baptized and becomes the evil Prophet Comstock.

    This is a constant, the game tells us. This is fact. This will happen in all cases, without exception. It is a constant of all possible universes. If Dewitt accepts baptism, he becomes an even greater evil, the game tells us, always.

    Preface: I'm an atheist. I abhor religion, frankly. I used to be very devout Christian, and broke free of it, not unlike Elizabeth did come to think of it.

    But when the game tells me that there is no universe where Dewitt could have been baptized and actually fully repented and reformed himself, I must disagree. Real change, real transformation from worse to better is possible. I don't know what drives it -- I don't think it comes from God as Christians do -- but I do believe that it is a real phenomenon.

    People can change. They can move from worse to better. Even the worst of us.

    So for the game's final moment to be a smothering of all those possibilities -- even though that resonated with me in the moment, I can't help find it slightly hollow.

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    glimmungglimmung Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Loved the game and have just spent awhile reading the plot relevant portions of this thread.
    Couple of questions/comments.
    The hunter's arc is completely surreal.
    He gets hired by Comstock to kill Fitzroy.
    At some point tortures a young Vox courier.
    Starts taking care of his victim?
    Encounters alt. Booker and Slate at the Hall of Heroes and is talked into joining the Vox.
    Is this basically correct? The alternate timelines make it a bit of a mess.
    Pretty sure that board of scalps is his.
    What is the deal with Slate's pistol looking like it came through a tear?

    glimmung on
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    SuperRuperSuperRuper Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Melkster wrote: »
    So... Can we talk about the game's themes? For me, that's far more interesting than the plot, as wonderful as it is --

    I read this article that @meeksa sent me, and I find myself agreeing with it, mostly.

    End game spoilers follow:
    I agree with the article when it says that the primary theme of the story was that you can't wash away the past. And this is showcased in the ending, when you find out that in the late 1800's, Dewitt is baptized and becomes the evil Prophet Comstock.

    This is a constant, the game tells us. This is fact. This will happen in all cases, without exception. It is a constant of all possible universes. If Dewitt accepts baptism, he becomes an even greater evil, the game tells us, always.

    Preface: I'm an atheist. I abhor religion, frankly. I used to be very devout Christian, and broke free of it, not unlike Elizabeth did come to think of it.

    But when the game tells me that there is no universe where Dewitt could have been baptized and actually fully repented and reformed himself, I must disagree. Real change, real transformation from worse to better is possible. I don't know what drives it -- I don't think it comes from God as Christians do -- but I do believe that it is a real phenomenon.

    People can change. They can move from worse to better. Even the worst of us.

    So for the game's final moment to be a smothering of all those possibilities -- even though that resonated with me in the moment, I can't help find it slightly hollow.
    I don't think the game's point was that you can't go from worse to better. I think it was saying that Booker didn't go from worse to better, and he never would. It was a constant. Like Booker DOESN'T row. He always chooses heads. Stuff like that. If he got baptized, he would become Comstock no matter what. There was no redemption for Booker, not saying that there is no redemption for all people.

    Edit:
    That being said. If you think otherwise look at it this way:

    There are now other versions of Booker that took the baptism and was redeemed. He goes on living a fulfilled life. That's great. Maybe there's even a happily ever after for him...but probably not because...

    Comstock still exists in other universes and he has created a version of Elizabeth in one or more of those infinite universes with the sole mission of burning the sodom below and quite possibly travelling to other dimension to burn those sodoms too. So as long as one of those universes exists, all the other universes are fucked.

    Which is why Comstock had to be pulled out at the root. All the Bookers faced with that choice of Baptism had to die.

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    StollsStolls Brave Corporate Logo Chicago, ILRegistered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Finished the game. Here are my thoughts in sum:
    Bioshock Infinite is a beautiful but deeply flawed game, just as the first one was. It is also better than the first one. The ludonarrative dissonance is strong with this one, possibly due to a sort of uncanny-valley phenomenon where the immersion is excellent until it totally isn't. For instance, they have all the reason in the world for this universe to support health potions, but instead they have the player scarfing cakes and hotdogs to heal bullet wounds. The health kits are points in the right direction, but why even have the foodstuffs if you're going to do that? Eh.

    In terms of the setting and narrative on its own... The scenes and whatnot are gorgeous. There are some serious bugs which frustrated my original playthrough and ruined some of the gravitas, but the game just came out so those are forgivable. I felt compelled to find the answers in the game and so it succeeded in that aspect, yet for all the well-thought-out personality in the main characters the secondary characters feel sort of cardboard. I spent a fair amount of time scrounging for extra voxlogs and information so I don't feel like I didn't give that side of the narrative a fair shake. Daisy Fitzroy seems incidental. So does Fink. Some of the logic leaps and motivations, especially around the part where you're finding the gunsmith, require some major suspense of disbelief. The ending was poetic and beautiful but hammy in some aspects or a little too metaphorical and wishy-washy in others. It was very brave and potentially kills off the entire franchise, so I have to salute them for that.

    The gameplay is improved from the first one in some ways but not great in others. I was playing on a mouse and keyboard so some of the controls were weird and I couldn't exactly get used to them. Hit V for melee? Z for zooming? It made the fast-pace of the melee/up close combat simply frustrating rather than fun or difficult. Some battles were incredibly easy. Others were difficult and frustrating. I spent most of my time sniping, stunning, or possessing the enemies to avoid the shaky controls in melee. I might go back and play with a controller and see if that changes anything. I played on medium until a battle at the end which turned into essentially a slog for no reason and I just wasn't interested in wasting my time. At the beginning of my playthrough, the battles were exciting and most held real purpose to the narrative. In the last half of the game the actual combat felt more like a side-note next to the exploring and the story. Random battles would occur almost with no other purpose than to extend the gameplay time or provide a beat between one story reveal and the next. I'm sure it was supposed to communicate the chaotic nature of the PC's experience, but I didn't feel the tension of chaos so much as the tedium of a neurotic enemy.

    That said, the ludonarrative really worked in some cases. I felt immersed in the character, once I ignored some of the really bothersome elements because I began to pretend that all of it was a fantasy within Elizabeth's head so of course food can heal bullet wounds, blah blah blah. There were some really clever choices- having Elizabeth not need you to save her but still need you to kill the enemies, having her appear to run ahead and lead the way. Her lockpicking ability made her into a core asset rather than a sidekick- specifically for the hairpin locks which served no other purpose than to subtly remind you that Elizabeth helps you. Couple that cleverness with her throwing you incredibly useful mid-battle items and suchlike, the game really builds a sincere appreciation for her from the PC's perspective. That's incredible.

    In sum, as I said at the beginning, it's a beautiful but flawed game. They managed to not only change the context and core message of the first game (without ruining it) but to also communicate a solid, fascinating vision for the new game. Neither the characters nor the setting were over-wrought, and as a player I felt none of the usually cloying elements of steampunk settings get in the way. Hell, I forgot the game could even be called "steampunk"! It just seemed like a natural alternate history/sci-fi location. Maybe that has something to do with the lack of ridiculous amounts of goggles. There are plotholes aplenty, sure, and maybe they get filled in by some buttressing that I didn't find on my playthrough. It was a brave attempt at real, strong story-telling for a block-buster style videogame. I couldn't help but feel I would have enjoyed it better as a book or a graphic novel.

    And THAT is my BIOSHOCK INFINITE WALL O' TEXT. I could probably talk more about the individual characters, but then no one would ever read it.

    This is kind of where I am, too. To elaborate,
    I can recognize a well constructed ending, but in the end I'm not really sure I like it. Clearly the writers were quietly supporting the multiverse concept throughout the story, and certain segments stand out more upon looking back; it's not an asspull, though I'll leave it to others to determine how structurally sound it is (I find it ludicrous that Booker/Comstock would be in any position of power, given Booker was born in '74 and Columbia launched in '93, when he was nineteen). Still, I give them credit for coming up with a legitimately well executed twist that didn't feel like another Would You Kindly moment.

    My problem is that it essentially makes Columbia merely a backdrop. Once Fitzroy's dead, Columbia's whole setup of labor unrest and racial tension is used only to justify a steady stream of mooks that I no longer had any interest in fighting; would really like to know how the Vox got more organized after Fitzroy, and more importantly where they got that spiffy zeppelin fleet. In any case, the city and the story are not woven together as strongly as Rapture was with Bioshock, and Infinite's core ideas - the real meat of the story - don't make the most of the Columbia. It stopped feeling like a place at some point, and instead just felt like setpieces for the next fight or story event. That's hardly unique to Infinite, but it is a letdown when it happens.

    Like I said, the finale is well built, but to me it's less interesting than the setting. I wanted more of that, and so the closing hour or so left me rather cold. It didn't help that design issues kept cropping up: the stealth sequence with the annoyingly durable dudes in the Comstock House, the two-weapon limitations and even tighter inventory restrictions than in Bioshock, the boss fight with the silly ghost thing you have to repeat twice amidst a 'find three tears to somehow get the ghost to open a door' quest, the game's signature enemies being largely unfun to fight (fuck Handymen, seriously). Once I stopped being awestruck over the visuals and Elizabeth and the subtle environmental touches, it all felt so... ordinary.

    Is Bioshock Infinite still a good game? Absolutely, it's far better than I was expecting going in. Is it a GOTY contender? The overwhelming consensus is yes, but I politely disagree.

    Stolls on
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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    You seem to have missed a couple of things Stolls
    1974 was the battle of wounded knee, not the day Booker was born, it's listed as Comstocks birthday because Comstock was born from Bookers baptism later that year.

    I would imagine since the Vox had obviously taken control of the whole city that they plenty of airships to steal and repurpose.

    And I wouldn't call rampant mob mentality and wholesale slaughter "more organized" not that Daisy was subtle, but she got a mob riled up and then got killed which turned their fury up to 11 with no one firmly in charge.

    I completely agree about the weapons. It seemed that I never had ammo for what I wanted to use and I was always being forced to use weapons I had no interest in. But they all were boring anyway so what did it matter.

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    MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    Woah woah woah --

    I'm watching this interview with Ken Levine. There's a scene at 7:17 that I never saw in the game. Did I miss it?

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    PunkBoyPunkBoy Thank you! And thank you again! Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Personally I found the combat exciting, and felt that the scarcity of weapons and ammo made things more tense and dangerous. The lack of ammo forced me to keep on the move, be careful with my shots, and use my vigors, and made the times Elizabeth threw ammo a welcome relief, instead of just another thing that happens occasionally.
    I will say that I'm glad that the story wasn't focused on the setting. For me a "jingoism/racism/imperialism etc. is bad" story may have worked well, but I was much more invested in the personal stories of Comstock, Booker, and Elizabeth. And even then, as the article linked earlier points out, you can make the connection between America's past, present, and future with their stories.

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    StollsStolls Brave Corporate Logo Chicago, ILRegistered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    You seem to have missed a couple of things Stolls
    1974 was the battle of wounded knee, not the day Booker was born, it's listed as Comstocks birthday because Comstock was born from Bookers baptism later that year.

    I would imagine since the Vox had obviously taken control of the whole city that they plenty of airships to steal and repurpose.

    And I wouldn't call rampant mob mentality and wholesale slaughter "more organized" not that Daisy was subtle, but she got a mob riled up and then got killed which turned their fury up to 11 with no one firmly in charge.

    I completely agree about the weapons. It seemed that I never had ammo for what I wanted to use and I was always being forced to use weapons I had no interest in. But they all were boring anyway so what did it matter.

    Actually,
    Wounded Knee was 1890, and Columbia launched in 1893. The Wikia has a snapshot of Booker's Pinkerton documents, stating he was born in 1874. He would've been sixteen at the time of Wounded Knee, and - even as Comstock - nineteen by the time Columbia launched. Even if he wasn't that young, that's a very short period of time to go from the baptism that created Comstock to amassing enough personal fame and fortune for the project.

    As for the Vox stuff, that's exactly it: there was no one in charge. It just strains credulity that an angry, now-leaderless mob would be able to seize several zeppelins and mount a large, coordinated assault on Comstock's barge. There may well have been someone running the show off camera, but in the game it just felt like a flimsy reason to have an epic aerial battle. Don't get me wrong, I had fun playing it, I just didn't buy into the setup.

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    MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    Melkster wrote: »
    Woah woah woah --

    I'm watching this interview with Ken Levine. There's a scene at 7:17 that I never saw in the game. Did I miss it?

    Woah --

    Finished watching it and wow, they must have cut a ton of content.

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    PunkBoyPunkBoy Thank you! And thank you again! Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Stolls wrote: »
    Viskod wrote: »
    You seem to have missed a couple of things Stolls
    1974 was the battle of wounded knee, not the day Booker was born, it's listed as Comstocks birthday because Comstock was born from Bookers baptism later that year.

    I would imagine since the Vox had obviously taken control of the whole city that they plenty of airships to steal and repurpose.

    And I wouldn't call rampant mob mentality and wholesale slaughter "more organized" not that Daisy was subtle, but she got a mob riled up and then got killed which turned their fury up to 11 with no one firmly in charge.

    I completely agree about the weapons. It seemed that I never had ammo for what I wanted to use and I was always being forced to use weapons I had no interest in. But they all were boring anyway so what did it matter.

    Actually,
    Wounded Knee was 1890, and Columbia launched in 1893. The Wikia has a snapshot of Booker's Pinkerton documents, stating he was born in 1874. He would've been sixteen at the time of Wounded Knee, and - even as Comstock - nineteen by the time Columbia launched. Even if he wasn't that young, that's a very short period of time to go from the baptism that created Comstock to amassing enough personal fame and fortune for the project.

    As for the Vox stuff, that's exactly it: there was no one in charge. It just strains credulity that an angry, now-leaderless mob would be able to seize several zeppelins and mount a large, coordinated assault on Comstock's barge. There may well have been someone running the show off camera, but in the game it just felt like a flimsy reason to have an epic aerial battle. Don't get me wrong, I had fun playing it, I just didn't buy into the setup.

    Regarding the Vox:
    I'm pretty sure it's been 6 months since the revolution began after you rescue Elizabeth. The Vox speaker on the PA is the new leader, and I can imagine that they gathered enough resources in those 6 months to launch an attack.

    EDIT: Fuck, quote is not spoiler, I am so sorry if anyone read that.

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    StollsStolls Brave Corporate Logo Chicago, ILRegistered User regular
    edited April 2013
    PunkBoy wrote: »
    Stolls wrote: »
    Viskod wrote: »
    You seem to have missed a couple of things Stolls
    1974 was the battle of wounded knee, not the day Booker was born, it's listed as Comstocks birthday because Comstock was born from Bookers baptism later that year.

    I would imagine since the Vox had obviously taken control of the whole city that they plenty of airships to steal and repurpose.

    And I wouldn't call rampant mob mentality and wholesale slaughter "more organized" not that Daisy was subtle, but she got a mob riled up and then got killed which turned their fury up to 11 with no one firmly in charge.

    I completely agree about the weapons. It seemed that I never had ammo for what I wanted to use and I was always being forced to use weapons I had no interest in. But they all were boring anyway so what did it matter.

    Actually,
    Wounded Knee was 1890, and Columbia launched in 1893. The Wikia has a snapshot of Booker's Pinkerton documents, stating he was born in 1874. He would've been sixteen at the time of Wounded Knee, and - even as Comstock - nineteen by the time Columbia launched. Even if he wasn't that young, that's a very short period of time to go from the baptism that created Comstock to amassing enough personal fame and fortune for the project.

    As for the Vox stuff, that's exactly it: there was no one in charge. It just strains credulity that an angry, now-leaderless mob would be able to seize several zeppelins and mount a large, coordinated assault on Comstock's barge. There may well have been someone running the show off camera, but in the game it just felt like a flimsy reason to have an epic aerial battle. Don't get me wrong, I had fun playing it, I just didn't buy into the setup.

    Regarding the Vox:
    I'm pretty sure it's been 6 months since the revolution began after you rescue Elizabeth. The Vox speaker on the PA is the new leader, and I can imagine that they gathered enough resources in those 6 months to launch an attack.

    EDIT: Fuck, quote is not spoiler, I am so sorry if anyone read that.

    Ahh, I must have overlooked that. It still felt a little out of the blue, but that makes a bit more sense then. Thanks.

    To be clear, there is a lot to like about Infinite, and I'm happy to admit I was wrong to worry about its quality (the long development history and high budget were throwing up big red flags). It sucked me in from minute one and I kept on it to the end. The gunplay+superpowers formula still works well, and the skyhook sequences didn't feel at all gimmicky or hard to manage. As mentioned, Elizabeth was goddamn adorable, not to mention useful, and I could (and did, oh did I ever) spend hours just wandering around soaking in the sights. Irrational absolutely should be commended for their execution of the plot's various twists, even considering the stuff I mentioned.

    I just find myself less enamored by game's end, and rather than raring to give it another go, I'm ready to set it down and carry on.

    Stolls on
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    FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    You seem to have missed a couple of things Stolls
    1974 was the battle of wounded knee, not the day Booker was born, it's listed as Comstocks birthday because Comstock was born from Bookers baptism later that year.

    I would imagine since the Vox had obviously taken control of the whole city that they plenty of airships to steal and repurpose.

    And I wouldn't call rampant mob mentality and wholesale slaughter "more organized" not that Daisy was subtle, but she got a mob riled up and then got killed which turned their fury up to 11 with no one firmly in charge.

    I completely agree about the weapons. It seemed that I never had ammo for what I wanted to use and I was always being forced to use weapons I had no interest in. But they all were boring anyway so what did it matter.

    I suspect you're thinking of the Battle of the Little Bighorn, aka Custer's Last Stand, in 1876.

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