TBC era: Let's get a Prot Paladin so we can steamroll Shattered Halls heroic in 20 minutes and AoE it all down! Fuck X heroic, we need CC to do that one.
WotLK era: These shitty heroics are casual mode, take 20 minutes, and you can just AoE everything. Bring back CC.
It's sort of funny: I've been leveling an alt on the side, and it seems like low level tanks do their damnedest to keep me from doing any CC at all.
An add hitting the healer, and the tank is oblivious to it...I sheep it, and then the tank suddenly notices and runs the 15 yards dragging all the other mobs just to hit it.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
You don't even need a tank in vanilla instances, you didn't even need a tank in the beginning vanilla instances in vanilla. I remember rogues and mages and shadow priests tanking back in the day.
CC is silly there.
But yeah that's what I'm seeing Josh. The same people that praised paladins back then are pissed off that it's just AoE now. I know I'm not happy to have to deal with retards having to learn how to not be retarded again. They're just starting to get the hang of it now.
And saying they'll have to learn , lawl, it's been what, 3 years now and they're still terrible? You all have that one guy in your guild, I know it. Now imagine a whole fucking world full of "that guy" you really think they're all going to learn?
At least in BC we all had our small gaggle of friends outside the guild we pugged with and ostracized those that were terrible. Not so much the case anymore. This is going to be horrible until we can kick people at will from groups when they do terrible.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
At least most classes will have enough CC to get the job done, unlike BC era. Maybe with the increase in generic world mob health and damage, people will need to start learning to use CC, interrupts, and defensive cooldowns. Maybe I like to dream big.
TBC era: Let's get a Prot Paladin so we can steamroll Shattered Halls heroic in 20 minutes and AoE it all down! Fuck X heroic, we need CC to do that one.
WotLK era: These shitty heroics are casual mode, take 20 minutes, and you can just AoE everything. Bring back CC.
I think you're hearing these things from different people, though.
I think back then, a lot of us weren't asking for them to make all tanks super AE tanks. We were asking for more classes to be given viable CC so that huge packs in places like SH and SL would be manageable.
They gave us the CC, but then made it completely irrelevant.
I don't think the people who complained about having to use CC are the same people who are complaining that heroics are too easy now.
I don't care whether there's crowd control or not, I just want to be able to actually play my class in PvE. Right now I don't get to use even one fourth of my abilities in 5-mans, and I use even fewer in raids. That's not very fun. Instances which require crowd control allow me to use more abilities, but it's not specifically the crowd control that I care about. Anything that lets me use more abilities is good.
At least most classes will have enough CC to get the job done, unlike BC era. Maybe with the increase in generic world mob health and damage, people will need to start learning to use CC, interrupts, and defensive cooldowns. Maybe I like to dream big.
Right now the current effect of the damage/health increases of mobs is that melee gets screwed over and has to worry about finding enough self-healing (more/less effort required for this dependent on class), casters just fire off some more nukes.
I dont mind CC as long as the instance doesnt take over 25 min. In the beginning when everything is new and you could get your ass handed to you, CC is fine. After 2 tiers of upgrades, i sure as hell don't want to be CC'ing anymore as ive prob ran the instance too many times already and on a number of alts, and im sure this will be the case unless we have crap like the axe throwers in ZG that piss me off.
I don't care whether there's crowd control or not, I just want to be able to actually play my class in PvE. Right now I don't get to use even one fourth of my abilities in 5-mans, and I use even fewer in raids. That's not very fun. Instances which require crowd control allow me to use more abilities, but it's not specifically the crowd control that I care about. Anything that lets me use more abilities is good.
This would be nice. But to balance around it (especially moreso in raids) they need to get away from the "maximize your dps to down this boss" and more "use cool and fun abilities"
I know DAoC did this, and I think one of the final fantasy games did this, but allow certain abilities to chain into stronger more powerful abilities.
IE, explosive shot would need a steadshot, serpent sting, and black arrow to be chained before being used, and make it way more powerful instead of basing it around a base dps number and being rotated off cooldown.
The cooldown/rotation system is to blame for 90% of the fuckmuppetry going on. I remember as a paladin in DAoC I had something like Ruby strike, then I could go to emerald strike, then diamond strike (I don't even know if that was the correct names). And if I made it to diamond strike without fucking up, it'd hit them for shit tons.
Though, you'd just be exchanging for "wait for x to be able to use it" balancing to "can we design fights to not interrupt them the longest amount of times so they can get their xyz123 combos off?" So meh. But at least it'd be more interesting.
Maybe have a->b branch off into a huge list of stuff depending on what you want to do. Want to add an AoE dot as a hunter? Hit serpent sting after that a-b combo. Want to slow them all down? Concussive shot (might be an aoe slowdown or a complete stun). Stuff like that would be way more interesting than waiting for explosive shot and black arrow to come off cooldown to maximize my dps.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I think that would be awesome.. EQ2(when i played it when it first came out), had something similar i think.. chaining abilities of different toons did cool stuff. I think pre-reqs would be awesome, that is do this to be able to do this and then this for maximum effect. If you dont, you still do damage, but nowhere as much as you would if you followed a pattern. It would make battles a lot more fun other than just press 1 button.
Cataclysm is still months away from release, but I'm slowly getting excited to play WoW again with a lot of other returning friends. For WotLK, we were part of the crowd getting started at midnight and playing until exhaustion set in. I remember that time being a blast, but besides having plenty of coffee on hand, I didn't have much of a plan to get the most out of that initial experience.
If I have the opportunity to spend extended amounts of time with this expansion right off the bat, I'm looking for suggestions on how to make things even more fun this time around. Should I force myself to pause for sleep after a certain amount of time or let my body decide when the time is right?
Coffee is guaranteed again, but some variety of snacks/food and drinks might serve the task better. I'm not a good cook, so maybe just order pizza? Have some chili or cheese dip going in a crockpot? I don't want to eat so much that I get sleepy, but something that can give me a few hours of energy would be nice.
I've haven't got much else in the way of ideas to keep me perked up. The stereo or TV could help, but that would be background noise at best over vent and the game sounds.
Feel free to call me nuts for getting excited this early, the inner nerd just can't be restrained sometimes.
Wappadu on
0
Liquid GhostDO YOU HEAR THE VOICES, TOO?!Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
I just spent the entirety of this dungeon run humming the Heliport theme from Double Dragon 2.
Okay, here's something I'd like to see implemented in the future, reduced costs for out-of-date items.
I know that things got out of control this expansion with emblems, and I suppose that just going with 2 levels of points will make this easier, but still, prices dropping as new tiers come out would be helpful, since generally, even the silliest of silly geese would recognize that more expensive gear = better gear. I mean, assuming we will wind up with T11 and T12 using the same currency (hero points) and T13 costing the advanced currency (valor points)...shouldn't the cost of T11 go down? I mean, if someone wants to wait and upgrade to 2 tiers behind for cheap, is that wrong?
On the other hand, there's things like Halaa and the Argent Tournament. For example, is anyone starting up (or coming back) with Cata (and wanting to collect mounts/pets) really going to put in all the time needed at the Tournament? I'm not talking about something insane, but something along the lines of a 10-20% reduction in costs would make that grind more attractive in the face of all the new content.
Doctor Detroit on
0
jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
I'm not sure if there would be as many complaints that WotLK heroics are too easy if it wasn't for the fact that it is trivial to get enough gear to do 3-5 times more dps than you could with pre-Naxx gear.
I'm not sure if there would be as many complaints that WotLK heroics are too easy if it wasn't for the fact that it is trivial to get enough gear to do 3-5 times more dps than you could with pre-Naxx gear.
(most) Heroics were pretty easy from day 1.
People weren't really AE spamming BC heroics until you had protadins in T5+ gear. People were doing it in Wrath heroics in dungeon blues and crafted epics, and it only got easier from there.
Okay, here's something I'd like to see implemented in the future, reduced costs for out-of-date items.
I know that things got out of control this expansion with emblems, and I suppose that just going with 2 levels of points will make this easier, but still, prices dropping as new tiers come out would be helpful, since generally, even the silliest of silly geese would recognize that more expensive gear = better gear. I mean, assuming we will wind up with T11 and T12 using the same currency (hero points) and T13 costing the advanced currency (valor points)...shouldn't the cost of T11 go down? I mean, if someone wants to wait and upgrade to 2 tiers behind for cheap, is that wrong?
On the other hand, there's things like Halaa and the Argent Tournament. For example, is anyone starting up (or coming back) with Cata (and wanting to collect mounts/pets) really going to put in all the time needed at the Tournament? I'm not talking about something insane, but something along the lines of a 10-20% reduction in costs would make that grind more attractive in the face of all the new content.
I think they are upgrading pvp crafting patterns with each tier of content (so third tier gear can be crafted relatively cheaply each season). Hopefully they will do the same for pve crafted gear.
Okay, here's something I'd like to see implemented in the future, reduced costs for out-of-date items.
I know that things got out of control this expansion with emblems, and I suppose that just going with 2 levels of points will make this easier, but still, prices dropping as new tiers come out would be helpful, since generally, even the silliest of silly geese would recognize that more expensive gear = better gear. I mean, assuming we will wind up with T11 and T12 using the same currency (hero points) and T13 costing the advanced currency (valor points)...shouldn't the cost of T11 go down? I mean, if someone wants to wait and upgrade to 2 tiers behind for cheap, is that wrong?
On the other hand, there's things like Halaa and the Argent Tournament. For example, is anyone starting up (or coming back) with Cata (and wanting to collect mounts/pets) really going to put in all the time needed at the Tournament? I'm not talking about something insane, but something along the lines of a 10-20% reduction in costs would make that grind more attractive in the face of all the new content.
Well, the point of making Tier X-1 gear available for purchase is to make it so that players can jump right into Tier X content without guilds having to re-run old content to gear up new recruits. If Tier X-2 gear isn't good enough for Tier X content, the last thing Blizzard wants to do is make it attractive for purchase. That would defeat the purpose of having the gear available in the first place.
Personally I wish they'd bring back long, difficult dungeons. Things like Blackrock Depths, or Stratholme, huge expansive places. Places you can get lost in, or fight through for hours. Leveling alts I love LFD, getting into the fun and intresting dungeons, but my intrest peters out as soon as I hit Outland, with their simple, short, linear designs. Then it just becomes another meaningless grind.
Decomposey on
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
I think they are upgrading pvp crafting patterns with each tier of content (so third tier gear can be crafted relatively cheaply each season). Hopefully they will do the same for pve crafted gear.
That right there is a great freaking idea. If blacksmiths/leatherworkers/tailors were able to craft tier gear one tier behind that would be awesome. People could just do heroics to get it anyway, but I'm sure there are some people who would want to buy it straight up for their alts and stuff if it was available to do so, plus crafters would have another way to make some money.
If they could fix the "full stop before every single pull to figure out what is going to be CC'd and applying it" that made BC heroics take so long, then it'd be fine. Unfortunately from what I've experienced in the beta so far, this is not the case.
CC is a good enough concept, but the way it's currently been implemented as essentially an opener and nothing more, it just comes off as tedious.
If they could figure out a decent in-combat, off the cuff CC method, that wasn't incredibly fragile (since most CCs break on any kind of damage) I think it would be for the best.
If they could fix the "full stop before every single pull to figure out what is going to be CC'd and applying it" that made BC heroics take so long, then it'd be fine. Unfortunately from what I've experienced in the beta so far, this is not the case.
CC is a good enough concept, but the way it's currently been implemented as essentially an opener and nothing more, it just comes off as tedious.
If they could figure out a decent in-combat, off the cuff CC method, that wasn't incredibly fragile (since most CCs break on any kind of damage) I think it would be for the best.
Which is why I love banish, and an expansion that will be full of elemental enemies.
If they could figure out a decent in-combat, off the cuff CC method, that wasn't incredibly fragile (since most CCs break on any kind of damage) I think it would be for the best.
Maybe make CC targets immune to AoE perhaps? Just a thought.
If they could figure out a decent in-combat, off the cuff CC method, that wasn't incredibly fragile (since most CCs break on any kind of damage) I think it would be for the best.
Maybe make CC targets immune to AoE perhaps? Just a thought.
That'd be nice - still breakable if you wanted too/someone was being extra stupid, but all the passive aoe that happens (especially in a melee ball) makes CC in there pretty bad. See when one of the melee gets CC'd during LDW.
I'm not sure if there would be as many complaints that WotLK heroics are too easy if it wasn't for the fact that it is trivial to get enough gear to do 3-5 times more dps than you could with pre-Naxx gear.
(most) Heroics were pretty easy from day 1.
People weren't really AE spamming BC heroics until you had protadins in T5+ gear. People were doing it in Wrath heroics in dungeon blues and crafted epics, and it only got easier from there.
At launch? No. I remember wiping repeatedly in Wrath heroics in a mix of dungeon blues + purples against some of the more difficult bosses. Even one member of the group in t9 gear has an almost 50 ilvl jump on someone who was in starting gear, and it only takes one geared member to really trivialize an instance.
Never has there been a time in WoW where gear of such a high quality was available for such a small time investment. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but the non-ICC heroics were definitely not designed with this in mind. I'd say that at launch, WOTLK heroics were tuned just right, with a few CC pulls and some bosses you really didn't want to fuck with.
In shit gear (especially if it was the healer) the end bosses of both Halls of Stone and Halls of Lightning could be kinda of difficult. Especially if the DPS was melee heavy. Other instances not so much. Those are the only two I remember people having problems with.
Then you have bosses like Ymiron - at release, it was a question of whether or not you were going to get the King's Bane achievement. Now it's a question of whether you get two or three GCDs off between phases.
I think in pre-raid gear that heroics in Wrath could've been a touch harder. Once the 2nd-3rd tiers of the next expansion come out heroics are going to be easy again (except for any new 5 mans they add) but there really isn't anything you can do about that.
Heh, just got an e-mail saying I got a beta invite and I was DEEPLY suspicious even though it looked very good but then I logged into battle.net and yeah the invite was legit. This is the first time I've gotten into a WoW beta. Fun times ahead?
jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
Isn't Blizzard planning on releasing one expansion per year starting with Cataclysm? That would at least help because there probably wouldn't be anything past the second tier. Who knows if they can manage that considering ICC will probably have been out for a year before Cataclysm.
Why would they want to release one a year? I think one every 2 years is pretty good. Maybe speed it up to one every 1.5 years or something, since the post-ICC wait is dragging on here. But that could be solved by including another raid tier.
shryke on
0
jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
Posts
WotLK era: These shitty heroics are casual mode, take 20 minutes, and you can just AoE everything. Bring back CC.
An add hitting the healer, and the tank is oblivious to it...I sheep it, and then the tank suddenly notices and runs the 15 yards dragging all the other mobs just to hit it.
CC is silly there.
But yeah that's what I'm seeing Josh. The same people that praised paladins back then are pissed off that it's just AoE now. I know I'm not happy to have to deal with retards having to learn how to not be retarded again. They're just starting to get the hang of it now.
And saying they'll have to learn , lawl, it's been what, 3 years now and they're still terrible? You all have that one guy in your guild, I know it. Now imagine a whole fucking world full of "that guy" you really think they're all going to learn?
At least in BC we all had our small gaggle of friends outside the guild we pugged with and ostracized those that were terrible. Not so much the case anymore. This is going to be horrible until we can kick people at will from groups when they do terrible.
I think you're hearing these things from different people, though.
I think back then, a lot of us weren't asking for them to make all tanks super AE tanks. We were asking for more classes to be given viable CC so that huge packs in places like SH and SL would be manageable.
They gave us the CC, but then made it completely irrelevant.
I don't think the people who complained about having to use CC are the same people who are complaining that heroics are too easy now.
Right now the current effect of the damage/health increases of mobs is that melee gets screwed over and has to worry about finding enough self-healing (more/less effort required for this dependent on class), casters just fire off some more nukes.
This would be nice. But to balance around it (especially moreso in raids) they need to get away from the "maximize your dps to down this boss" and more "use cool and fun abilities"
I know DAoC did this, and I think one of the final fantasy games did this, but allow certain abilities to chain into stronger more powerful abilities.
IE, explosive shot would need a steadshot, serpent sting, and black arrow to be chained before being used, and make it way more powerful instead of basing it around a base dps number and being rotated off cooldown.
The cooldown/rotation system is to blame for 90% of the fuckmuppetry going on. I remember as a paladin in DAoC I had something like Ruby strike, then I could go to emerald strike, then diamond strike (I don't even know if that was the correct names). And if I made it to diamond strike without fucking up, it'd hit them for shit tons.
Though, you'd just be exchanging for "wait for x to be able to use it" balancing to "can we design fights to not interrupt them the longest amount of times so they can get their xyz123 combos off?" So meh. But at least it'd be more interesting.
Maybe have a->b branch off into a huge list of stuff depending on what you want to do. Want to add an AoE dot as a hunter? Hit serpent sting after that a-b combo. Want to slow them all down? Concussive shot (might be an aoe slowdown or a complete stun). Stuff like that would be way more interesting than waiting for explosive shot and black arrow to come off cooldown to maximize my dps.
Fire mages, arms warriors, moonkins.
Compare them to the ones you have to wait for a cooldown.
Arcane mages, fury warriors, feral druids.
Which one is way more fun and which one pumps out more dps?
If I have the opportunity to spend extended amounts of time with this expansion right off the bat, I'm looking for suggestions on how to make things even more fun this time around. Should I force myself to pause for sleep after a certain amount of time or let my body decide when the time is right?
Coffee is guaranteed again, but some variety of snacks/food and drinks might serve the task better. I'm not a good cook, so maybe just order pizza? Have some chili or cheese dip going in a crockpot? I don't want to eat so much that I get sleepy, but something that can give me a few hours of energy would be nice.
I've haven't got much else in the way of ideas to keep me perked up. The stereo or TV could help, but that would be background noise at best over vent and the game sounds.
Feel free to call me nuts for getting excited this early, the inner nerd just can't be restrained sometimes.
That's all, really. Nothing interesting.
I know that things got out of control this expansion with emblems, and I suppose that just going with 2 levels of points will make this easier, but still, prices dropping as new tiers come out would be helpful, since generally, even the silliest of silly geese would recognize that more expensive gear = better gear. I mean, assuming we will wind up with T11 and T12 using the same currency (hero points) and T13 costing the advanced currency (valor points)...shouldn't the cost of T11 go down? I mean, if someone wants to wait and upgrade to 2 tiers behind for cheap, is that wrong?
On the other hand, there's things like Halaa and the Argent Tournament. For example, is anyone starting up (or coming back) with Cata (and wanting to collect mounts/pets) really going to put in all the time needed at the Tournament? I'm not talking about something insane, but something along the lines of a 10-20% reduction in costs would make that grind more attractive in the face of all the new content.
(most) Heroics were pretty easy from day 1.
People weren't really AE spamming BC heroics until you had protadins in T5+ gear. People were doing it in Wrath heroics in dungeon blues and crafted epics, and it only got easier from there.
I think they are upgrading pvp crafting patterns with each tier of content (so third tier gear can be crafted relatively cheaply each season). Hopefully they will do the same for pve crafted gear.
Well, the point of making Tier X-1 gear available for purchase is to make it so that players can jump right into Tier X content without guilds having to re-run old content to gear up new recruits. If Tier X-2 gear isn't good enough for Tier X content, the last thing Blizzard wants to do is make it attractive for purchase. That would defeat the purpose of having the gear available in the first place.
That right there is a great freaking idea. If blacksmiths/leatherworkers/tailors were able to craft tier gear one tier behind that would be awesome. People could just do heroics to get it anyway, but I'm sure there are some people who would want to buy it straight up for their alts and stuff if it was available to do so, plus crafters would have another way to make some money.
CC is a good enough concept, but the way it's currently been implemented as essentially an opener and nothing more, it just comes off as tedious.
If they could figure out a decent in-combat, off the cuff CC method, that wasn't incredibly fragile (since most CCs break on any kind of damage) I think it would be for the best.
Which is why I love banish, and an expansion that will be full of elemental enemies.
I am a freaking nerd.
Maybe make CC targets immune to AoE perhaps? Just a thought.
That'd be nice - still breakable if you wanted too/someone was being extra stupid, but all the passive aoe that happens (especially in a melee ball) makes CC in there pretty bad. See when one of the melee gets CC'd during LDW.
I am a freaking nerd.
Make trash hard but short. Like Forge of Souls only with slightly harder trash.
At launch? No. I remember wiping repeatedly in Wrath heroics in a mix of dungeon blues + purples against some of the more difficult bosses. Even one member of the group in t9 gear has an almost 50 ilvl jump on someone who was in starting gear, and it only takes one geared member to really trivialize an instance.
Never has there been a time in WoW where gear of such a high quality was available for such a small time investment. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but the non-ICC heroics were definitely not designed with this in mind. I'd say that at launch, WOTLK heroics were tuned just right, with a few CC pulls and some bosses you really didn't want to fuck with.
Steam | XBL: Elazual | Last.fm
Pretty much the only PUGs I did were with people from other raiding guilds who were racing to start raiding.
I am a freaking nerd.
Oh my god, bear is driving!
SOME Heroics were.
Halls of Lightning? Halls of Stone? Certain Violet Hold bosses? Not easy at launch.
There were plenty of Heroics that raped people hard. Shit, didn't they say at one point that Loken was the most wiped on boss?