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[Starcraft 2] Multiplayer discussion. Nerf Terran, Zerg, and Protoss please.

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    Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    iowa wrote: »
    but let's talk about how hard zerg is to play

    the answer is hard

    In BW days, i'd main Protoss and 2nd string Zerg. As lost as I am with Toss, its nothing compared to my problems with the swarm.

    and i just never did terran... although, since they're so OP.... :-)

    Its funny. I played 2 back to back PvT. 2 gate rushed both. First guy lost his wall, he only had low HP buildings up, and called me all sorts of Silly Goose names. 2nd guy builds a better wall, repels the attack and rolls me. Since I did effectively damage with 7 zealots, it was quite the waste.

    Joe K on
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    StokedUpStokedUp Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Gonna jump on for a bit. If anyone wants to do some practice matches id be down. I really want to learn to macro efficiently. Im much better than I was at release but I still feel alot of my "strategies" aren't working since my macro isnt at 100%.

    StokedUp on
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    iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    ill practice with ya hang on.

    do you want to use mumble?

    iowa on
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    DeMoNDeMoN twitch.tv/toxic_cizzle Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I keep losing so obviously Terran needs a buff.

    I will settle for them putting medics into multi.

    DeMoN on
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    Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    3clipse wrote: »
    Joe K wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    just a question, how does protoss effectively deal with mass marauders?

    immortals, chargelots, and effective use of sentries. and upgrades. i'll get level 1/1/1 and forget air or further ugrading...

    BAD

    Use those minerals and gas to buy a Twilight Council and get Charge and/or Blink sooner. And upgrade your Weapons to level 3, then Shields to 3 (if you went Air, get Air Weapons to 3 before shields). If you still have tons of free cash to burn while continuously pumping units and the game's gonna go on for awhile, then upgrade ground and air armor.

    Also Void Rays help with Marauders.

    well, ignoring that i included chargelots, which would assume a Twilight Council....

    You always upgrade attack max first? Never go for shields/armor until after?

    and No Sentries? Really? and Shouldnt I have a Robo up anyway by this point, and immortals destroy marauders?

    Joe K on
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    3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Nono, Immortals/chargelots/sentries is a good comp. I'm saying get the TC up faster and you'll get Charge up faster.

    Attack is by far the most worthwhile upgrade. Faster you can take them down, the better, especially if you're using Immortals, since each level of Attack gives them +5 damage against Marauders.

    3cl1ps3 on
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    WhatWhat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Iowa, you fucker.

    What on
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    iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    What wrote: »
    Iowa, you fucker.

    I didn't see nothin in IRC son.

    you just like stompin me when im z bro...

    iowa on
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    StokedUpStokedUp Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    iowa wrote: »
    ill practice with ya hang on.

    do you want to use mumble?

    i got nooo mic :(

    ill be on in 3 minutes.

    edit: theres a pa sc2 irc channel?

    StokedUp on
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    WhatWhat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    StokedUp wrote: »
    iowa wrote: »
    ill practice with ya hang on.

    do you want to use mumble?

    i got nooo mic :(

    ill be on in 3 minutes.

    edit: theres a pa sc2 irc channel?

    Yep, it's on the GnT front page m8.

    What on
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    awesomeocalypseawesomeocalypse Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Does anyone else feel like burrow is way underused in a lot of matches? Especially with Roaches--tunneling is great of course, but if one had good enough micro to continuously burrow wounded roaches for the regen while unburrowing healthy ones to keep up the attack, it would really force opponents to invest heavily in detection or just be decimated by roaches. I know people say "well, once the opponent gets detection thats a wasted upgrade." But observers are expensive as hell and take a while to get out, and photon cannon aren't free. Ravens are fairly high up the tech tree and most Terrans aren't thrilled when they have to make them, Scans aren't free either, and Missile Turrets aren't so hot at anything but defending mineral line harass. Send burrowed roaches to different points on the map, and suddenly your opponent has to pour an assload of resource into detection--force him to build just one or two more observers than he wanted to, or to spam scans, and that burrow upgrade pays for itself, even without the utility of regen. I mean, sure, by late game its probably not that helpful. But forcing your opponent to make a huge investment in detection in the mid-game could really fuck with a lot of builds, and IMO would be worth it. The complete disdain with which a lot of players seem to regard burrow seems unwarranted--I know that, playing Toss, on the rare occasions where I am facing serious burrowed Roach harass and have to pump out more observers than I wanted to, I'm never too happy about it.

    On the other hand, I don't play Zerg, so my opinion is probably hopelessly poorly conceived.:mrgreen:

    awesomeocalypse on
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    xtaxta Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    3clipse wrote: »
    Joe K wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    just a question, how does protoss effectively deal with mass marauders?

    immortals, chargelots, and effective use of sentries. and upgrades. i'll get level 1/1/1 and forget air or further ugrading...

    BAD

    Use those minerals and gas to buy a Twilight Council and get Charge and/or Blink sooner. And upgrade your Weapons to level 3, then Shields to 3 (if you went Air, get Air Weapons to 3 before shields). If you still have tons of free cash to burn while continuously pumping units and the game's gonna go on for awhile, then upgrade ground and air armor.

    Also Void Rays help with Marauders.

    i had no idea to go for shields

    i've been doing weapon then armor, repeat until maxed. i think this is the BW style of upgrading. what does upgraded shields do?

    xta on
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    JorilJoril BelgiumRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    So I saw Day[9] live at Gamescom today, which was nice.

    Joril on
    bonesnacksig.jpg
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    Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    3clipse wrote: »
    Nono, Immortals/chargelots/sentries is a good comp. I'm saying get the TC up faster and you'll get Charge up faster.

    Attack is by far the most worthwhile upgrade. Faster you can take them down, the better, especially if you're using Immortals, since each level of Attack gives them +5 damage against Marauders.

    Ok... so, all attack first. sounds reasonable.

    which order of protoss advanced buildings do you go for? I usually go robo first, then twilight, with the exception of against protoss where i'll drop about 3 starports....

    Joe K on
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    3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    xta wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Joe K wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    just a question, how does protoss effectively deal with mass marauders?

    immortals, chargelots, and effective use of sentries. and upgrades. i'll get level 1/1/1 and forget air or further ugrading...

    BAD

    Use those minerals and gas to buy a Twilight Council and get Charge and/or Blink sooner. And upgrade your Weapons to level 3, then Shields to 3 (if you went Air, get Air Weapons to 3 before shields). If you still have tons of free cash to burn while continuously pumping units and the game's gonna go on for awhile, then upgrade ground and air armor.

    Also Void Rays help with Marauders.

    i had no idea to go for shields

    i've been doing weapon then armor, repeat until maxed. i think this is the BW style of upgrading. what does upgraded shields do?

    Makes every unit's shields take less damage. Since ground units, air units, and buildings all have shields but armor types are specific, you get a bigger benefit from upgrading shields as your first protective upgrades (after getting weapons).

    3cl1ps3 on
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    AshdrakeAshdrake Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Any helpful tips on baneling bursts for a terrible terran player? This one strategy by zerg players constantly wrecks me. They break my wall and the zerglings come pouring in. Works like a charm every time :(

    Ashdrake on
    I hunt monsters because I need weapons. I need weapons because I hunt monsters.
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    3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Joe K wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Nono, Immortals/chargelots/sentries is a good comp. I'm saying get the TC up faster and you'll get Charge up faster.

    Attack is by far the most worthwhile upgrade. Faster you can take them down, the better, especially if you're using Immortals, since each level of Attack gives them +5 damage against Marauders.

    Ok... so, all attack first. sounds reasonable.

    which order of protoss advanced buildings do you go for? I usually go robo first, then twilight, with the exception of against protoss where i'll drop about 3 starports....

    Robo-->Twilight, get an Observer then an Immortal or two while starting upgrades. I scout with my observer and then plan my next transition (which varies depending on what my opponent is doing). Could be Robo Bay, could be Starports, could be Templar Archives. I almost never go Dark Shrine unless I'm playing a Zerg with 0 detection, in which case I make a few DTs to harass with.

    3cl1ps3 on
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    JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I'm in the gosucoaching weekly #9.

    The site is lagged out. My opponent is not here.

    Goddammit.

    JamesKeenan on
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    3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Ashdrake wrote: »
    Any helpful tips on baneling bursts for a terrible terran player? This one strategy by zerg players constantly wrecks me. They break my wall and the zerglings come pouring in. Works like a charm every time :(

    Wall with stronger buildings, like Barracks or Factories. By the time they have enough Banelings for a bust you should be able to have a Barracks/Factory/Engineering Bay wall. With a bunch of Marines behind it and SCVs repairing it, this should stop pretty much any bust.

    Wait for them to blow all their resources trying to bust you, then counter push.

    3cl1ps3 on
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    JamesKeenanJamesKeenan Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Ashdrake wrote: »
    Any helpful tips on baneling bursts for a terrible terran player? This one strategy by zerg players constantly wrecks me. They break my wall and the zerglings come pouring in. Works like a charm every time :(

    Make your wall out of two barracks or a barracks and factory.

    JamesKeenan on
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    Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    xta wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Joe K wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    just a question, how does protoss effectively deal with mass marauders?

    immortals, chargelots, and effective use of sentries. and upgrades. i'll get level 1/1/1 and forget air or further ugrading...

    BAD

    Use those minerals and gas to buy a Twilight Council and get Charge and/or Blink sooner. And upgrade your Weapons to level 3, then Shields to 3 (if you went Air, get Air Weapons to 3 before shields). If you still have tons of free cash to burn while continuously pumping units and the game's gonna go on for awhile, then upgrade ground and air armor.

    Also Void Rays help with Marauders.

    i had no idea to go for shields

    i've been doing weapon then armor, repeat until maxed. i think this is the BW style of upgrading. what does upgraded shields do?

    shields always took full damage in BW, regardless of unit size. apparently in SC2, the get the same attributes as HPs of the unit. Its been bandied about here, but I really havent seen a canonical source on it, and i've looked.

    Joe K on
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    EzekielEzekiel Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Ashdrake wrote: »
    Any helpful tips on baneling bursts for a terrible terran player? This one strategy by zerg players constantly wrecks me. They break my wall and the zerglings come pouring in. Works like a charm every time :(

    Bunkers can be an amazing part of your wall, or just behind, or double up factory and barracks. Never double supply depot next to eachother, that's begging to be busted down. Keep your marines away from the space directly behind where it's most likely to be busted.

    Ezekiel on
    428475-1.png
    I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
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    Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Ezekiel wrote: »
    Ashdrake wrote: »
    Any helpful tips on baneling bursts for a terrible terran player? This one strategy by zerg players constantly wrecks me. They break my wall and the zerglings come pouring in. Works like a charm every time :(

    Bunkers can be an amazing part of your wall, or just behind, or double up factory and barracks. Never double supply depot next to eachother, that's begging to be busted down. Keep your marines away from the space directly behind where it's most likely to be busted.

    Its also effective against a Protoss rush. If there's a supply depot, its going down, and most likely so is your base.

    Joe K on
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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    3clipse wrote: »
    xta wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Joe K wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    just a question, how does protoss effectively deal with mass marauders?

    immortals, chargelots, and effective use of sentries. and upgrades. i'll get level 1/1/1 and forget air or further ugrading...

    BAD

    Use those minerals and gas to buy a Twilight Council and get Charge and/or Blink sooner. And upgrade your Weapons to level 3, then Shields to 3 (if you went Air, get Air Weapons to 3 before shields). If you still have tons of free cash to burn while continuously pumping units and the game's gonna go on for awhile, then upgrade ground and air armor.

    Also Void Rays help with Marauders.

    i had no idea to go for shields

    i've been doing weapon then armor, repeat until maxed. i think this is the BW style of upgrading. what does upgraded shields do?

    Makes every unit's shields take less damage. Since ground units, air units, and buildings all have shields but armor types are specific, you get a bigger benefit from upgrading shields as your first protective upgrades (after getting weapons).
    Doesn't its value kind of depend on your army composition? If you've got like no air, wouldn't the fact that most units have more health than shields and that the armor upgrade is cheaper make the armor upgrade a better option?

    Now of course if you suddenly transitioned to air, then shields would be more useful, but I'm just wondering if there's a rationale to get a level of armor before shields sometimes (zealots for example only have about 35% of their life in shield HP)?

    forty on
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    enderjsvenderjsv Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Ashdrake wrote: »
    Any helpful tips on baneling bursts for a terrible terran player? This one strategy by zerg players constantly wrecks me. They break my wall and the zerglings come pouring in. Works like a charm every time :(

    Whenever I see a zerg going mass banelings, I always just make a handful of extra siege tanks. Place those on the edge of your base away from each other and watch how many banelings they take out while they're rolling in. Works great.

    enderjsv on
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    Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    /clip/ But observers are expensive as hell and take a while to get out /clip/ I know that, playing Toss, on the rare occasions where I am facing serious burrowed Roach harass and have to pump out more observers than I wanted to, I'm never too happy about it.

    On the other hand, I don't play Zerg, so my opinion is probably hopelessly poorly conceived.:mrgreen:

    observers are 50/100 and build 2 seconds faster than sentries, another 50/100 unit. I mean, you have to have a robo, but, observers arent expensive or slow to build. plus, chrono boost.

    Joe K on
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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I'm really liking speedling and baneling+muta. just be prepared to tech to brolords if needed.

    Jars on
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    DragDrag Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    forty wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    xta wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    Joe K wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    just a question, how does protoss effectively deal with mass marauders?

    immortals, chargelots, and effective use of sentries. and upgrades. i'll get level 1/1/1 and forget air or further ugrading...

    BAD

    Use those minerals and gas to buy a Twilight Council and get Charge and/or Blink sooner. And upgrade your Weapons to level 3, then Shields to 3 (if you went Air, get Air Weapons to 3 before shields). If you still have tons of free cash to burn while continuously pumping units and the game's gonna go on for awhile, then upgrade ground and air armor.

    Also Void Rays help with Marauders.

    i had no idea to go for shields

    i've been doing weapon then armor, repeat until maxed. i think this is the BW style of upgrading. what does upgraded shields do?

    Makes every unit's shields take less damage. Since ground units, air units, and buildings all have shields but armor types are specific, you get a bigger benefit from upgrading shields as your first protective upgrades (after getting weapons).
    Doesn't its value kind of depend on your army composition? If you've got like no air, wouldn't the fact that most units have more health than shields and that the armor upgrade is cheaper make the armor upgrade a better option?

    Now of course if you suddenly transitioned to air, then shields would be more useful, but I'm just wondering if there's a rationale to get a level of armor before shields sometimes (zealots for example only have about 35% of their life in shield HP)?

    There's also the fact that most protoss units have at least as much hp as they do shields, and zealots,stalkers, and immortals all start with 1 armor. An upgrade to the armor will reduce incoming damage by a larger ratio than an upgrade to shields (i.e., the ratio of dropping 5 damage to 4 damage is smaller than the ratio of dropping 4 damage to 3 damage).

    Throw in the fact that a lot of terrans these days are going to EMP these shields as much as possible, as well as the fact that most of your units will die in battle rather than be pulled out and have their shields regenerated means that it's probably more beneficial to get the armor upgrade.

    Drag on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    EzekielEzekiel Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    enderjsv wrote: »
    Ashdrake wrote: »
    Any helpful tips on baneling bursts for a terrible terran player? This one strategy by zerg players constantly wrecks me. They break my wall and the zerglings come pouring in. Works like a charm every time :(

    Whenever I see a zerg going mass banelings, I always just make a handful of extra siege tanks. Place those on the edge of your base away from each other and watch how many banelings they take out while they're rolling in. Works great.

    How fast you getting out tanks? Most busts come before then.

    Ezekiel on
    428475-1.png
    I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
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    DoomninjaDoomninja Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    While we're theorycrafting:

    Make mauraders cost 75 gas, or even 100? Forces more consideration on army composition ex: Ghosts, early reapers etc

    Give qeens more starting energy so there's a pool to help with transfusing vs early agression. Increase range by 1

    Increase hydra base land speed?

    Make sentries cost 25 less gas.

    Thoughts?

    Doomninja on
    1154825-1.png
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    enderjsvenderjsv Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Ezekiel wrote: »
    enderjsv wrote: »
    Ashdrake wrote: »
    Any helpful tips on baneling bursts for a terrible terran player? This one strategy by zerg players constantly wrecks me. They break my wall and the zerglings come pouring in. Works like a charm every time :(

    Whenever I see a zerg going mass banelings, I always just make a handful of extra siege tanks. Place those on the edge of your base away from each other and watch how many banelings they take out while they're rolling in. Works great.

    How fast you getting out tanks? Most busts come before then.

    Really? Maybe I've just never been up against a really good baneling bust, but to be honest, I prefer factory units against zerg more than barack units. I'll go one barracks, 2 factories, produce marines and two helions. Harrass with the helions if I can and go immediately to seige tanks. I'm a big believer in seige tanks. Mauraders are overrated (unless they switch to roaches).

    enderjsv on
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    RendRend Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Doomninja wrote: »
    While we're theorycrafting:

    Make mauraders cost 75 gas, or even 100? Forces more consideration on army composition ex: Ghosts, early reapers etc

    Give qeens more starting energy so there's a pool to help with transfusing vs early agression. Increase range by 1

    Increase hydra base land speed?

    Make sentries cost 25 less gas.

    Thoughts?

    75 gas for a tier 1 unit that doesn't have spells? Or 100?
    D:

    Rend on
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    VicktorVicktor Infidel Castro Rancho ChupacabraRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Regarding the Roach discussion and the suggestion to put 2 roaches in one egg/larva and reducing food cost:

    The point that larvae as a resource is important.

    Zerg units can't be balanced around simply their build time. Given enough resources (depending on your macro and the phase of the game) a fighting force is often built or replaced at the rate of larvae production. That 5th pair of zerglings can come out just as quickly after the 4th pair as the 5th Ultralisk after the 4th -provided you're not just sitting around waiting for the resources to come in and have been using available larva.

    Thus two roaches per egg, even if they take longer to produce, would be a HUGE buff later in the game. In a massing scenario it allows zerg to reinforce a roach army at twice the current rate. Early on it would just mean that first roach (pair) comes out a little slower.

    That type of change seems small, but is really a big deal.

    Vicktor on
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    ElementalorElementalor Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Doomninja wrote: »
    While we're theorycrafting:

    Make mauraders cost 75 gas, or even 100? Forces more consideration on army composition ex: Ghosts, early reapers etc

    Give qeens more starting energy so there's a pool to help with transfusing vs early agression. Increase range by 1

    Increase hydra base land speed?

    Make sentries cost 25 less gas.

    Thoughts?

    I think 50 gas marauders would be more than enough.

    Elementalor on
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    Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Doomninja wrote: »
    While we're theorycrafting:

    Make mauraders cost 75 gas, or even 100? Forces more consideration on army composition ex: Ghosts, early reapers etc

    Give qeens more starting energy so there's a pool to help with transfusing vs early agression. Increase range by 1

    Increase hydra base land speed?

    Make sentries cost 25 less gas.

    Thoughts?

    i wouldnt touch sentries. they are completely under utilized, and have 3 incredible spells to abuse.

    Joe K on
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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    a baneling bust would come at the time they get like 20ish lings up. which is not very long. you would only have a hellion or two, definitely not siege mode finished.

    Jars on
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    AshdrakeAshdrake Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    enderjsv wrote: »
    Ashdrake wrote: »
    Any helpful tips on baneling bursts for a terrible terran player? This one strategy by zerg players constantly wrecks me. They break my wall and the zerglings come pouring in. Works like a charm every time :(

    Whenever I see a zerg going mass banelings, I always just make a handful of extra siege tanks. Place those on the edge of your base away from each other and watch how many banelings they take out while they're rolling in. Works great.

    zerg can get banelings out pretty quick. I am normally just rolling a tank over when the first one hits. They don't need many to drop a supply depo.

    Ashdrake on
    I hunt monsters because I need weapons. I need weapons because I hunt monsters.
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    TeeSamTeeSam Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    3clipse wrote: »
    Yes, that happens when you do Placement Matches.

    You should get out of the Practice League ASAP. The game is played at Faster in ranked games, and even if you hate it, you should get used to playing at it if you plan on doing ranked matches at all ever.

    Plus, there's no rush defense in Ranked Games.

    2-3 games in Practice League is good to get the hang of the tech trees and the game flow, and then you should just jump in and do placement. Worse case scenario, you do horribly and place in Bronze, and as you get better you work your way up.

    The problem is I don't mind losing(<-LIE), but I can't even play the game at Faster. Even at Normal after quite a few games with good hotkey usage, my resources still get above 1000, I can't micro for shit, etc. That Day 9 dude tried to make the point that APM isn't that important, so he tried to keep his APM as low as possible while managing a base. By the time he had his expansion up, without any scouting or opponent harrassing him, he was clicking faster than I've ever managed...while trying to make the point that you don't need to click fast.

    TeeSam on
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    enderjsvenderjsv Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Jars wrote: »
    a baneling bust would come at the time they get like 20ish lings up. which is not very long. you would only have a hellion or two, definitely not siege mode finished.

    Really? Anyone got a baneling bust replay I could watch? I must not be playing against good baneling bust players because I've never had trouble with early banelings. I'm rank 75 in gold.

    enderjsv on
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    EzekielEzekiel Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    enderjsv wrote: »
    Jars wrote: »
    a baneling bust would come at the time they get like 20ish lings up. which is not very long. you would only have a hellion or two, definitely not siege mode finished.

    Really? Anyone got a baneling bust replay I could watch? I must not be playing against good baneling bust players because I've never had trouble with early banelings. I'm rank 75 in gold.

    This is a bit old:

    http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/1224

    It's late too. 6:00 or so is when I should be opening up usually.

    Ezekiel on
    428475-1.png
    I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
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