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[Starcraft 2] Multiplayer discussion. Nerf Terran, Zerg, and Protoss please.

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    Alfred J. KwakAlfred J. Kwak is it because you were insulted when I insulted your hair?Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    So, a 3v3 match, bronze league - my team decides to rush and takes out the enemy Zerg player. The enemy Protoss player then sends out 3 void rays and proceeds to destroy the base of my Zerg ally, while I and my Protoss ally take his base. A 3v3 has now turned into 2v1. Their last player? He masses marines and tears through my allies base and all my expansion (I had only corrupters and mutas at that point) and is only stopped just in front of my base with a zergling/baneling army that was burrowed under his feet. He then surrendered. It was all together quite pathetic, and I also learned the hard way that mutas are in fact not a counter to marine blob.

    Alfred J. Kwak on
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    are points working yet?

    Variable on
    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
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    SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Variable wrote: »
    are points working yet?

    They were working for me earlier.

    SkutSkut on
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    DocshiftyDocshifty Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    SkutSkut wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    are points working yet?

    They were working for me earlier.

    Just finished a second game for the nights, points on both of them.

    And Terran lifted buildings shouldn't count for enemy structures. Floating one of those things around is really annoying as I try to hunt it down. I've got better shit to do.

    Docshifty on
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    SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    That's their thing though, but they should reveal if a base isn't actively mining.

    SkutSkut on
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Yeah I think the terran requirement should be that at least one building must be landed at all times to avoid revealing all structures (or just all floating structures).

    Dhalphir on
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    DocshiftyDocshifty Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Whatever solutions keeps them from floating the goddamn thing in a corner off the map somewhere and wasting time. At least that time it was only ten minutes.

    Docshifty on
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    YannYann Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    My new ZvT build involves strapping reaper jetpacks to the backs of zerglings.
    Also stuffing hydras into siege tanks. Launching banelings.

    Yann on
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Yann wrote: »
    My new ZvT build involves strapping reaper jetpacks to the backs of zerglings.
    Also stuffing hydras into siege tanks. Launching banelings.

    probably possible to do in the galaxy editor.

    Dhalphir on
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    god DAMN I just won one of my better games. no points. fuck.

    still feels good but that's a bummer. I think that's the longest game I won, and it made up for a similar game I los tin the lobby last night (tvp on metalopolis, this time I killed the colossi :P)

    Variable on
    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
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    DocshiftyDocshifty Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Queens should have a Chuck ability. They load up a unit in their scythe arms and then SCHOOM send it flying!

    Docshifty on
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    SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    That's was an interesting one, guy keeps sending immortal/stalker/zealot waves as I barely fend them off, he could've won if he'd kept it up. Then things go quiet and he tries to mass carriers as I punch his expansion in and sends out about 6 carriers and a mothership. Which promptly got devoured by my Viking horde.

    Why do people not understand capital ships are only for really really reallly really late game when you have full upgrades and need just a bit more oomph?

    SkutSkut on
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    ah, the points have been granted.

    rewatching the game he could probably have beaten me. I need to learn that the timing I seem to think is good in tvp is actually just the right time for them to already have colossi. I may have held him off with the vikings I had and the advantages of being on defense but I may have folded completely. good thing he didn't! and also good thing he didn't adjust my change in composition even though he saw the entire thing. I hate observers.

    Variable on
    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
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    DocshiftyDocshifty Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    So I remember popping into the beta thread and seeing...how to put it..."Improvement games". A few of the more experienced players would observe while two lower levels would duke it out, then give tips on how to improve.

    Do these still go on? Because I would be all the fuck over these.

    Docshifty on
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    playing with the lobbies at night will get you some tips, but I do believe coaching games still go on from time to time.

    Variable on
    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
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    Feels Good ManFeels Good Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    we did one for player named rasky two nights ago

    Feels Good Man on
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    YannYann Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Docshifty wrote: »
    So I remember popping into the beta thread and seeing...how to put it..."Improvement games". A few of the more experienced players would observe while two lower levels would duke it out, then give tips on how to improve.

    Do these still go on? Because I would be all the fuck over these.

    I did this with a buddy yesterday, he had just purchased the game. He had placed in silver, but after only 2 practice games he was just murdering silver players. One game he had 44 workers created versus 14.

    Yann on
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    DeathwingDeathwing Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    That's was an interesting one, guy keeps sending immortal/stalker/zealot waves as I barely fend them off, he could've won if he'd kept it up. Then things go quiet and he tries to mass carriers as I punch his expansion in and sends out about 6 carriers and a mothership. Which promptly got devoured by my Viking horde.

    I had a weird game along those general lines a couple nights ago - first half or so of the game, the guy continually tries to break in the front of my base with roaches, easily held off. Later on, after I shuttle probes out the side and have 2 expansions going, I decide to just go for lulz and mass carriers.

    Just as i've got the stargates down and 4 carriers almost done, he finally manages to break in with a horde of mutas, destroys the pylons for my gates, and...leaves? o_O This repeats 4 or 5 times, meanwhile i'm systematically taking out his expansions with DT's, finally getting enough carriers to kill the mutas in between attacks. Finally he attacks my main with probably 30-40 brood lords and no air support, easily pwned by the carriers and the rest is just mop-up afterwards.

    Deathwing on
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    MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    So I find that most of my losses are in TvT. I think in TvT games I play too aggressively. What is the viable strategy for TvT

    Both just turtle up and resolve their differences with Diplomacy?

    MagicPrime on
    BNet • magicprime#1430 | PSN/Steam • MagicPrime | Origin • FireSideWizard
    Critical Failures - Havenhold CampaignAugust St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
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    SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Tank it up, make mostly vikings and tanks (depends on which of their army is bigger, ground w/ marines or Mauraders) expand and macro that shit out. And scan, scan a lot, scan his expos to see if he's setting one up if he is hit it. When you got about 3 base make 2 armories and work on upgrades. Watch for drops. If he goes tank/viking too throw in a raven or two for point defense drone.

    Early game- is he massing Marines/Maurders (3+ rax one with tech lab one with reactor another building) pump mauraders and concussive shells while teching to siege tanks with siege. make a bunker if you feel the need to. If he's going reapers just put a maurader or two in your minerals and laugh

    If he's going fac-port try to harass a bit with 2 mauraders and 2-4 marines. Make an engineering bay and still go for tanks just don't make them a priority. put turrets around your perimeter. Expect drops or banshees.

    Fast expo? Expand yourself or attack if you're confident enough. Hell you could probably tech up and roll some tanks while he just has mauraders and marines.

    If his first push fails you can either go contain him (make sure to check he doesn't have tanks at home himself) or take another expo.

    Late game's all about tanks/vikings/ravens.

    SkutSkut on
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    MovitzMovitz Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    MagicPrime wrote: »
    So I find that most of my losses are in TvT. I think in TvT games I play too aggressively. What is the viable strategy for TvT

    Both just turtle up and resolve their differences with Diplomacy?

    Banjo duel at dusk.

    [Edit] Or, you know, what Skut said.

    Movitz on
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    MagicPrime wrote: »
    So I find that most of my losses are in TvT. I think in TvT games I play too aggressively. What is the viable strategy for TvT

    Both just turtle up and resolve their differences with Diplomacy?

    right now I'm enjoying marines/banshees because I am running into lots of marauder heavy armies. the marauders are a sensible response to the tank viking wars of old, so I'm trying to further respond. seems to be working alright. haven't done it all that much admittedly.



    just beat a zerg who loooooved infestors. I guess just for fun but he did harass me pretty hard, it just doesn't have the oomph to end a game. plus once uyou know it's happening detection isn't exactly hard to get.

    3-0 this morning with one game against each race. nice feeling to go into work with, especially since I sometimes am able to watch replays while there and am always lamenting not having played more the night before. waking up early has opened my eyes. starcraft in the morning?! who knew

    Variable on
    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
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    DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    So, ive been playing a lot of 2v2 with my buddy, he is getting better. We are still bronze together, which makes me ask, how does it match us up against other players?

    We constantly have even matches against a gold and silver player. Is this because im plat in 1v1? Is it factoring that in to our 2v2 matches? Or is it that im gold 2v2 with randoms? We never, ever play other bronze, which I know makes sense, but its saying even match, which is strange. I am assuming, especially since we are on like an 10-4 streak against silver and gold teams, that if we keep it up, we will skip silver.

    Our two losses last night were pretty lame. One game was a double 6 pool. Normally not that big of an issue, except it was on Tempest and their base was NOT opposite of us. So when I scouted, I didnt find anything. Then I guessed the next location and didnt find them there. They were apparently right to our right. Needless to say, an unscouted double 6pool got through right as my first zealot was popping.

    The streams of lings never stopped and we lost hard. Its so dumb. How does one prepare for that? I mean, by the time you scout 3 locations, they are going to have an army of lings ready. Do you just assume 6pool and build accordingly?

    The other loss was my bad. I usually simply watch for an expansion and tell my buddy its time to strike. We then take out the expansion(s), expand ourselves and then roll over the mains.This time, I was too afraid because the map was Twilight Fortress and the enemy was double terran. They could just turtle a combined defense and still have an expo each. I tried rushing to an upgraded stalker/colossi army. I got to about 170 in supply off my two bases, expanded and attacked.

    Yeah, letting terran turtle just doesnt work. My stalker/colossi army just got destroyed by MMM with tanks. How does one deal with double terran in maps that allowed for combined defense in front of the naturals? Two base terran is enough to last to a mass of unit X so its not feasible to simply grab the rest of the map and starve them.

    If I was terran myself, i would likely do a bunch of drops behind them. They did a good job with missile turrets to keep my observers out. I really feel like I have no idea how to counter this manuever as protoss. I microed piss poor and got my colossi group killed by missile turrets, so that hurt a ton. But even still me and my buddy's armies, at close to 200 supply each, barely even dented the combined TT MMM and siege tank balls. So much so, that the other terran apparently ahd like 8 BCs he didnt even use in the fight. So when they countered it was just done-zo.

    I realize, had my colossi not gotten killed so foolish, 3 upgraded colossi would have cut through his MMM ball like butter. So maybe that was the issue. Its just, with that map they had this high ground covered in siege tanks and missile turrets so there was no good way to attack it on the ground. I know theres likely 100 ways to deal with it, but I just feel like it would all require pretty good micro, which I dont have. :(

    Disrupter on
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    KlykaKlyka DO you have any SPARE BATTERIES?Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Someone PLEASE watch this replay and tell me exactly why I lost.
    repimg-33-141990.jpg

    I think it was because my Colossus came WAY too late. I can't believe one fucking Ghost won that guy the match. Seriously fuming with rage now.

    Klyka on
    SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
    lTDyp.jpg
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    SavantSavant Simply Barbaric Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Ugh, playing against Terran at the higher levels is starting to get ridiculous. Bioball does plenty to kill protoss on its own, but as I saw tonight it is not the only strat they've got. I got hit by a guy massing tanks, mauraders, and vikings, which turned into a big macro fest as I tried to stamp out his expos but kept losing out to attrition to his tank balls. And he built those stupid sensor towers across the map so he basically had a maphack going. Once he got a big enough tank blob, my ground army just vaporized and he was able to take out my third, and it was too late for the void rays I was building to do anything.

    Then, I run into a terran who does a heavy banshee play. So I think, "great, mass stalkers, get some observers, and a colossus or two to clean up the ground escort." WRONG. Banshees tear stalkers to pieces, especially when a raven plops a PDD down. He expands all over the map after sniping my expansion, and there is nothing I can do about it. Air would have helped, but he still had marine backup and I would have to double tech while he would be able to expand uncontested. And of course the games where I do get air they get torn apart by the bioball with ghost backup.

    Bah. At least the games I played against zerg today seemed relatively fair, or slightly in my favor.

    Savant on
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    DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I never use ravens, how do they work? What are they used for? Should I be using them as a late game Terran?

    Disrupter on
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    SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    My first successful cheese woo.

    And Savant, Banshees are light armor you should've made Phoenixes.

    Reapers are silly.

    Ravens should be out midgame against any race really. Detects cloaked units, has a nifty auto turret that can attack air and ground, pdd melts otherwise superior armies, great all around.

    SkutSkut on
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    SeanronSeanron GlasgowRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Y' know, I've watched alot of replays and played a fair bit myself (mainly comp stomp and custom with friends) and I've noticed several of my friends (and my ranked match foes) whining about Zerg early rushing and Terran/Toss being unstoppable when they tech up.

    To these friends and foes I say NAY! To competently counter T/P teching and their general unstoppableness late game is to deny them the late game altogether, and Zerg are the perfect foil for this. Speedlings, Broodlings, Overlord/Hydra bombs, Fast Muta's, Creep spamming, it seems everything the Zerg do points toward quickly overwhelming your foe to deny them their superior late-game weapons.

    I'm not saying it's the ONLY way - the zerg late game can be awesome with Ultra's and BL's, and the other pair are equally rush-worthy with Protoss 2 - 4 gate rushes and the dreaded Terran Zapp Brannigan Rush (wave after wave of your own men to slay or starve the resources of the enemy), but I hear folks moan about how unstoppable each army is at a certain aspect instead of thinking why, and how do I counteract that?

    TL: DR? - I likes Starcraft 2 :P

    Seanron on
    PSN: Seanron - XBL: Seanron - Steam: Seanron
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    SavantSavant Simply Barbaric Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    SkutSkut wrote: »
    My first successful cheese woo.

    And Savant, Banshees are light armor you should've made Phoenixes.

    Reapers are silly.

    Ravens should be out midgame against any race really. Detects cloaked units, has a nifty auto turret that can attack air and ground, pdd melts otherwise superior armies, great all around.

    Yes I know phoenixes would have done well against the banshees, but I also had to tech up to observers to see the stupid things, and had to get something to deal with the ground support he was building to back them up, otherwise my phoenixes would have been sitting ducks to the marines and things. I've lost games before where I went air first against the banshee builder because I didn't get detection up in time and his marines and such took out my air before I could do enough damage to get back to parity.

    Toss has three lines into higher tech, which means it is unlikely except in really long games to see all three lines fully explored. HTs plus phoenixes plus observers with stalker filling would of course wreck banshees, but getting that out in a reasonable timeframe while having an army that won't wilt in the face of anything else is more or less impossible.

    Savant on
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    SavantSavant Simply Barbaric Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Also, for some reason I got matched up against some guy who immediately quit out of the game twice in a row giving me some free wins and points. Like, before I could even get my probes mining fast.

    Free points are always nice when it is matching me up against a freaking 1000 point diamond level terran.

    Savant on
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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Klyka wrote: »
    Someone PLEASE watch this replay and tell me exactly why I lost.
    repimg-33-141990.jpg

    I think it was because my Colossus came WAY too late. I can't believe one fucking Ghost one that guy the match. Seriously fuming with rage now.

    you should have killed his whole army before going after structures.

    the three stalkers you sent in after the fight were basically suicided. I know you killed scvs but that didn't help you.

    arguable you shouldn't have pushed out in the beginning but really it would have done well if you had actually killed his army. you lost at least 3-4 stalkers (besides the one you sent in after) because of target firing the addon.

    following that you're behind in army. the ghost is a big equalizer but you could have won I believe if you hadn't lost the extra stalkers, and also gotten that colossi up. he would have died at your ramp.

    Variable on
    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
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    KlykaKlyka DO you have any SPARE BATTERIES?Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Variable wrote: »
    Klyka wrote: »
    Someone PLEASE watch this replay and tell me exactly why I lost.
    repimg-33-141990.jpg

    I think it was because my Colossus came WAY too late. I can't believe one fucking Ghost one that guy the match. Seriously fuming with rage now.

    you should have killed his whole army before going after structures.

    the three stalkers you sent in after the fight were basically suicided. I know you killed scvs but that didn't help you.

    arguable you shouldn't have pushed out in the beginning but really it would have done well if you had actually killed his army. you lost at least 3-4 stalkers (besides the one you sent in after) because of target firing the addon.

    following that you're behind in army. the ghost is a big equalizer but you could have won I believe if you hadn't lost the extra stalkers, and also gotten that colossi up. he would have died at your ramp.

    I did kill his army,he just build a few marines and pulled his SCVs in. I know suiciding the Stalkers was stupid,but still. I was basically leading the entire game. And he kills me with ONLY MARINES. What the SHIT? I feel like a fucking Bronze player.

    Klyka on
    SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
    lTDyp.jpg
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    BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Klyka wrote: »
    Someone PLEASE watch this replay and tell me exactly why I lost.
    repimg-33-141990.jpg

    I think it was because my Colossus came WAY too late. I can't believe one fucking Ghost won that guy the match. Seriously fuming with rage now.
    When you saw he didn't have a Barracks up, you could've done some probe harassment on the SCV when he started one, and chronoboosted out two Zealots for early harassment, since SoW is such a short rush map; he wouldn't have had 3 marines up to deal with it.

    You should've finished off his army in the first battle. Ghosts are nasty but they're not "kill five Stalkers" nasty worth prioritising over a couple of Marines who'd only take a couple of seconds to finish off.

    After that, I think it was an error of strategy. Ignoring the slow Colossus for a moment, you decided to expand against an opponent you knew was running an army-heavy early game build. When it came to the final battle, you'd spent more resources on your base than on creating an army to fight him off with.

    Bethryn on
    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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    KlykaKlyka DO you have any SPARE BATTERIES?Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I just thought "pffff Marines only? What a joke" and thought I could easily defend all of that.

    Today is just not a good day for me, I have been terrible at the game, forgetting stuff, being too slow, etc...

    Sigh.

    Klyka on
    SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
    lTDyp.jpg
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    SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Seriously how do you guys get that replay pic thingy? Is it a gamereplays only thing?

    SkutSkut on
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    KlykaKlyka DO you have any SPARE BATTERIES?Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    SkutSkut wrote: »
    Seriously how do you guys get that replay pic thingy? Is it a gamereplays only thing?

    Yeah, gamereplays gives you that link with a pic attached,it's pretty cool.

    Klyka on
    SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
    lTDyp.jpg
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    DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    How does PDD work? For that matter, how does the auto-turret work? Can either of them be destroyed? I get the turret is just dps in a range, so thats not too complicated, mainly, can it be killed? And for the Point Defense Drone, I just have no idea how it even works? What does it interecept? Marine fire? Stalker fire? Immortal fire? Colossus laser? Hyrdra spit? Is it pretty much any and all ranged attacks?

    Disrupter on
    616610-1.png
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    SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I'll have to use that more often then, and watch my cheese game, it's funny. :P

    Yes autoturret can be destroyed and just attacks air/ground for its duration. PDD absorbs all incoming missle fire while it has energy so Viking shots, Stalker shots, I'm sure any other projectile shot like maurader missles or whatever too. Both can be destroyed.

    repimg-33-142008.jpg

    SkutSkut on
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    BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    PDD is placed and shoots down all missiles in an area until it runs out of energy. It can be destroyed by targetting it. Auto-turret is placed and shoots anything until its duration runs out. It can be destroyed by targetting it.

    I think PDD intercepts any missile that has a visual component (so not Marine or Siege Tank fire, but Stalker fire, for example, or Battlecruiser fire).

    Bethryn on
    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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    KambingKambing Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Disrupter wrote: »
    How does PDD work? For that matter, how does the auto-turret work? Can either of them be destroyed? I get the turret is just dps in a range, so thats not too complicated, mainly, can it be killed? And for the Point Defense Drone, I just have no idea how it even works? What does it interecept? Marine fire? Stalker fire? Immortal fire? Colossus laser? Hyrdra spit? Is it pretty much any and all ranged attacks?

    Both the PDD and auto-turret can be destroyed. The PDD shoots down your opponent's projectiles. See here for a list of what it stops (and also what units can destroy it, i.e., have an air attack that isn't blocked by the PDD):

    http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Point_Defense_Drone

    Kambing on
    @TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
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