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[Starcraft 2] Multiplayer discussion. Nerf Terran, Zerg, and Protoss please.

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    VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I don't know exactly how shield upgrades work but with emp is that a reasonable thing to focus on v terran?

    Variable on
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    EMP has no use against a Terran since they're not going to be using spells at you (outside of the rare Raven) and the ghost's damage type fails completely against mech or marauders.

    Re: baneling busts, yea, if a Terran's on their game they'll have 1, maybe 2 hellions out by the time the baneling bust comes which should be enough to stop it. If they go for a tank they're dead and even if they somehow get it out they'll never in a million years have siege before the bust comes.

    Aegis on
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    nealcmnealcm Alvarian AlvarianRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Jars wrote: »
    I'm really liking speedling and baneling+muta. just be prepared to tech to brolords if needed.

    i just did this

    it was

    beautiful

    except speedlings are too cheap and i could not keep up with my larva due to microing my mutas so i ended up having 4k minerals... but i won

    nealcm on
    19ZUtIw.png
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    nealcm wrote: »
    Jars wrote: »
    I'm really liking speedling and baneling+muta. just be prepared to tech to brolords if needed.

    i just did this

    it was

    beautiful

    except speedlings are too cheap and i could not keep up with my larva due to microing my mutas so i ended up having 4k minerals... but i won

    The solution is to obviously build more Ultralisks.

    Aegis on
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    enderjsvenderjsv Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    EMP has no use against a Terran since they're not going to be using spells at you (outside of the rare Raven) and the ghost's damage type fails completely against mech or marauders.

    Re: baneling busts, yea, if a Terran's on their game they'll have 1, maybe 2 hellions out by the time the baneling bust comes which should be enough to stop it. If they go for a tank they're dead and even if they somehow get it out they'll never in a million years have siege before the bust comes.

    Well that's what I said. I always go two helions first and then focus entirely on tanks. Also, I think he meant it wasn't a good idea to go shield upgrade against terrans because terran has emp, which rips through shields anyway and makes nullifies the upgrade.

    enderjsv on
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    RendRend Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    EMP has no use against a Terran since they're not going to be using spells at you (outside of the rare Raven) and the ghost's damage type fails completely against mech or marauders.

    Re: baneling busts, yea, if a Terran's on their game they'll have 1, maybe 2 hellions out by the time the baneling bust comes which should be enough to stop it. If they go for a tank they're dead and even if they somehow get it out they'll never in a million years have siege before the bust comes.

    If they are going heavy on medivacs it can kill their mana. Also, nukes vs. an immobile army.

    Rend on
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I was responding more to Variable's question about focusing on EMP versus a terran.

    Aegis on
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Rend wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    EMP has no use against a Terran since they're not going to be using spells at you (outside of the rare Raven) and the ghost's damage type fails completely against mech or marauders.

    Re: baneling busts, yea, if a Terran's on their game they'll have 1, maybe 2 hellions out by the time the baneling bust comes which should be enough to stop it. If they go for a tank they're dead and even if they somehow get it out they'll never in a million years have siege before the bust comes.

    If they are going heavy on medivacs it can kill their mana. Also, nukes vs. an immobile army.

    That would be what vikings are for, at least for the first part. Which also don't cost 150 gas and tie up marauder production.

    Aegis on
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    [5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
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    McSnugglesMcSnuggles Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Here's another diamond TvP. I go MMM/tanks/raven, he goes DT,zealot, stalker, HT.

    650ish toss.
    repimg-33-140608.jpg

    McSnuggles on
    360 Gamertag: Mcsnuggles
    371610-1.png
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    RendRend Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    EMP has no use against a Terran since they're not going to be using spells at you (outside of the rare Raven) and the ghost's damage type fails completely against mech or marauders.

    Re: baneling busts, yea, if a Terran's on their game they'll have 1, maybe 2 hellions out by the time the baneling bust comes which should be enough to stop it. If they go for a tank they're dead and even if they somehow get it out they'll never in a million years have siege before the bust comes.

    If they are going heavy on medivacs it can kill their mana. Also, nukes vs. an immobile army.

    That would be what vikings are for, at least for the first part. Which also don't cost 150 gas and tie up marauder production.

    I pretty much agree, I was just being experimental with my comment.

    Rend on
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    enderjsvenderjsv Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    I was responding more to Variable's question about focusing on EMP versus a terran.

    I know
    Variable wrote: »
    I don't know exactly how shield upgrades work but with emp is that a reasonable thing to focus on v terran?

    He was asking, should a protoss player be focusing on shield upgrades vs a terran player. I'm not sure how you got EMP vs terran out of that. :P

    enderjsv on
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    It's mostly the gas that bugs me. Aside from a TvP matchup where the cost is absolutely justifiable, as a Terran player particularly, gas shortages are a constant worry and fuck a unit that costs 150 gas, particularly when I generally also have to be incorporating tanks into a matchup.

    Aegis on
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    TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Tanks in TvT are so old school. All hail the thor!

    Talith on
    7244qyoka3pp.gif
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    GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    McSnuggles wrote: »
    Here's another diamond TvP. I go MMM/tanks/raven, he goes DT,zealot, stalker, HT.

    650ish toss.
    repimg-33-140608.jpg

    It looked for a second like his probe pulled your SCV right past his early proxy pylon, but when I looked from your view, it was like 2cm out of your SCV's view.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
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    enderjsvenderjsv Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Talith wrote: »
    Tanks in TvT are so old school. All hail the thor!

    Thor's are great. Almost too good. Whenever I've fallen behind in scouting and don't know if my opponent is switching to air, I build thors. They're great against land and air, so why not?

    enderjsv on
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    TIFunkaliciousTIFunkalicious Kicking back in NebraskaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Battlecruisers and bio are both good against thors, keep in mind they do peanuts for damage vs non-light air units for their cost and firing rate

    TIFunkalicious on
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    FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    whenever I get more than 1-2 sentries I get utterly destroyed. I forcefield, my zealots can reach half his force, his marauder/marine army laughs, stims and my zealots are useless after destroying half his force.

    And whoever said immortals are good against mass marauder, are you high? Templars or void rays if pure marauder, colossi/immortals get sniped and die horribly far too fast, chargelots are nice as meatshields though. They aren't cost effective at all, but storms or VRs should do enough damage. And once he transitions to more marines they are really nice.

    Frozenzen on
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    DoomninjaDoomninja Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Rend wrote: »
    Doomninja wrote: »
    While we're theorycrafting:

    Make mauraders cost 75 gas, or even 100? Forces more consideration on army composition ex: Ghosts, early reapers etc

    Give qeens more starting energy so there's a pool to help with transfusing vs early agression. Increase range by 1

    Increase hydra base land speed?

    Make sentries cost 25 less gas.

    Thoughts?

    75 gas for a tier 1 unit that doesn't have spells? Or 100?
    D:

    yeah, might be a bit steep, but at least it has 2 tier 1 upgrades that are cheap and in the case of Stim it benefits multiple units.

    Doomninja on
    1154825-1.png
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    RendRend Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Doomninja wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    Doomninja wrote: »
    While we're theorycrafting:

    Make mauraders cost 75 gas, or even 100? Forces more consideration on army composition ex: Ghosts, early reapers etc

    Give qeens more starting energy so there's a pool to help with transfusing vs early agression. Increase range by 1

    Increase hydra base land speed?

    Make sentries cost 25 less gas.

    Thoughts?

    75 gas for a tier 1 unit that doesn't have spells? Or 100?
    D:

    yeah, might be a bit steep, but at least it has 2 tier 1 upgrades that are cheap and in the case of Stim it benefits multiple units.

    I would rather pay 200/200 for stims than have marauders cost 50 gas, much less 100.

    Rend on
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    Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Frozenzen wrote: »
    whenever I get more than 1-2 sentries I get utterly destroyed. I forcefield, my zealots can reach half his force, his marauder/marine army laughs, stims and my zealots are useless after destroying half his force.

    And whoever said immortals are good against mass marauder, are you high? Templars or void rays if pure marauder, colossi/immortals get sniped and die horribly far too fast, chargelots are nice as meatshields though. They aren't cost effective at all, but storms or VRs should do enough damage. And once he transitions to more marines they are really nice.

    try the guardian shield spell instead of forcefield.

    Joe K on
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    KlykaKlyka DO you have any SPARE BATTERIES?Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Immortals are really not all that amazing because they cost WAY too much and Marauders can easily stimpack kill them :(

    Klyka on
    SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
    lTDyp.jpg
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    FrozenzenFrozenzen Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Joe K wrote: »
    Frozenzen wrote: »
    whenever I get more than 1-2 sentries I get utterly destroyed. I forcefield, my zealots can reach half his force, his marauder/marine army laughs, stims and my zealots are useless after destroying half his force.

    And whoever said immortals are good against mass marauder, are you high? Templars or void rays if pure marauder, colossi/immortals get sniped and die horribly far too fast, chargelots are nice as meatshields though. They aren't cost effective at all, but storms or VRs should do enough damage. And once he transitions to more marines they are really nice.

    try the guardian shield spell instead of forcefield.

    Guardian shield is a joke against marauders.

    +1 armor+1-2 sentries for guardian shield against mass marine is the shit though.

    I'm just incapable of using forcefield effectively, so 1-2 sentries is all I need.

    Frozenzen on
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    McSnugglesMcSnuggles Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Rend wrote: »
    Doomninja wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    Doomninja wrote: »
    While we're theorycrafting:

    Make mauraders cost 75 gas, or even 100? Forces more consideration on army composition ex: Ghosts, early reapers etc

    Give qeens more starting energy so there's a pool to help with transfusing vs early agression. Increase range by 1

    Increase hydra base land speed?

    Make sentries cost 25 less gas.

    Thoughts?

    75 gas for a tier 1 unit that doesn't have spells? Or 100?
    D:

    yeah, might be a bit steep, but at least it has 2 tier 1 upgrades that are cheap and in the case of Stim it benefits multiple units.

    I would rather pay 200/200 for stims than have marauders cost 50 gas, much less 100.

    Marauders are strong, but 100 gas? That's literally insane.

    I don't agree with a cost nerf. If you want to nerf them, perhaps nerf their move speed slightly and maybe take ten hp off.

    McSnuggles on
    360 Gamertag: Mcsnuggles
    371610-1.png
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    GnomeTankGnomeTank What the what? Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    McSnuggles wrote: »
    Here's another diamond TvP. I go MMM/tanks/raven, he goes DT,zealot, stalker, HT.

    650ish toss.
    repimg-33-140608.jpg

    Question: I noticed you don't hotkey your units. You did hotkey the raven at one point, but the rest of your army you left outside of control groups.

    Is there any pros and cons to that? You seem to be really fast at the double click select, and pretty precise with your drag selects. Probably quicker and more precise than I am.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: Brainling
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    SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Just take Mauraders ability to stim away they have respectable dps without it and slow gives them a support unit niche.

    SkutSkut on
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    McSnugglesMcSnuggles Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    McSnuggles wrote: »
    Here's another diamond TvP. I go MMM/tanks/raven, he goes DT,zealot, stalker, HT.

    650ish toss.
    repimg-33-140608.jpg

    Question: I noticed you don't hotkey your units. You did hotkey the raven at one point, but the rest of your army you left outside of control groups.

    Is there any pros and cons to that? You seem to be really fast at the double click select, and pretty precise with your drag selects. Probably quicker and more precise than I am.

    I hotkey production buildings, ravens, and ghosts. Basically, I hotkey casters. Otherwise, Im quick enough with tab clicking and drag selecting that it doesn't matter.

    McSnuggles on
    360 Gamertag: Mcsnuggles
    371610-1.png
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Klyka wrote: »
    Immortals are really not all that amazing because they cost WAY too much and Marauders can easily stimpack kill them :(

    This is less about marauders and more about range and the cost of engagement.

    In small fights, damage and health are usually the determining factors for unit to unit matchups. In large fights, range and speed become critical unit stats.

    Marauders begin to overtake immortals when they have easy access to stim (medivacs) and large enough numbers to deal significant damage in 1-2 volleys before retreating (with stim) to prevent the immortals from engaging.

    Immortals will still absolutely murder Marauders in a simple match, but in larger fights they need support to make marauders pay a cost for engaging. Templar and Colossi are both ideal, the former for psi-storm and feedback (marauders without medivacs who use stim too liberally die real fast) and the latter for their long-range, anti-swarm attacks that turn "stim and run" into "stim and get shot by that big evil robot and run." The immortals deal enough damage that attempts to stim and rush the colossi end in ROKKITGUY tragedy.

    PotatoNinja on
    Two goats enter, one car leaves
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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    SkutSkut wrote: »
    Just take Mauraders ability to stim away they have respectable dps without it and slow gives them a support unit niche.
    Plus they'd be more like the campaign version!

    forty on
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    FuriousJodoFuriousJodo Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Yeah, Marauders are an insanely useful unit in pretty much all match-ups.

    FuriousJodo on
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    valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    just lost a zvp to a guy who went colossus/stalker.. what do I do to kill that? the stalkers protect the colossuses from air, and the colossuses annihilate all my ground... halp

    http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60001-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

    valiance on
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    ChenChen Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Corruptors?

    Chen on
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    iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    what do you guys think about mid game sentries?

    I told stoked he should use them to block marauders and allow his collosi to get in a few more free shots, but he mentioned that ghosts will just EMP them and he would be out 150 gas that could go to collosi or templar or whatever.

    GGs stoked. You had that PvZ, I checked out your base after you left and you had like 10 probes built so you were good. My crisis management needs some work.

    iowa on
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    KlykaKlyka DO you have any SPARE BATTERIES?Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Well, if the Terran doesn't have a single Ghost,I don't really see the problem with building a few sentries for forcefielding/guardian shield purposes.

    I actually remember a time in the beta when most top Protoss players where building a TON of sentries in basically every game. I think that time has passed though :(

    Klyka on
    SC2 EU ID Klyka.110
    lTDyp.jpg
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    StokedUpStokedUp Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    iowa wrote: »
    what do you guys think about mid game sentries?

    I told stoked he should use them to block marauders and allow his collosi to get in a few more free shots, but he mentioned that ghosts will just EMP them and he would be out 150 gas that could go to collosi or templar or whatever.

    GGs stoked. You had that PvZ, I checked out your base after you left and you had like 10 probes built so you were good. My crisis management needs some work.

    haha yeah i completely just dropped the ball that game. I was being yelled at to go eat at a restaurant and wasnt thinking right. But you had me beat regardless... sooo many mutas!

    GGs anytime you want to run some builds or just practice your macro/micro im up for it.

    StokedUp on
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    McSnugglesMcSnuggles Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    So I just fought the only competent zerg in the game who was able to get a proper baneling bust.

    I've never lost to a baneling bust, because apparently all zerg are absolutely awful at it.

    McSnuggles on
    360 Gamertag: Mcsnuggles
    371610-1.png
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    tofutofu Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    How can you be awful at it?

    tofu on
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Gonna have to look at a replay of a recent match I just played, as I'm not sure if it was his build that put me so far behind or the execution (or lackthereof) of mine. I'm leaning towards the latter as it was my first game in a while.

    Other game was fun. Another TvP where the Protoss pressured early with stalkers, losing them to the forces behind my wall (still not sure why he did that), and then went into an expansion and void rays. This did not end well for him, considering this means my 3 rax army > his lack of army, and since there are enough marines in the build, they destroyed all 3 of his void rays (which, due to him expanding, came at me 1 at a time).

    I'm still not sure if I prefer the 3 rax opening to the 11 marine/ghost opening. 3 rax means I don't get ghosts at all which makes me :(

    Aegis on
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    DroolDrool Science! AustinRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    McSnuggles wrote: »
    So I just fought the only competent zerg in the game who was able to get a proper baneling bust.

    I've never lost to a baneling bust, because apparently all zerg are absolutely awful at it.

    It's not exactly the most surefire strategy. It's pretty easy to counter if you know it's coming and you have to be real exact with your timing to get a decent bust out fast enough. I've only ever used it to slow someone down, and kill some workers really.

    Drool on
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    JutranjoJutranjo Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    McSnuggles wrote: »
    So I just fought the only competent zerg in the game who was able to get a proper baneling bust.

    I've never lost to a baneling bust, because apparently all zerg are absolutely awful at it.

    Any chance you could upload this replay please? I have no clue how to baneling bust properly.

    Jutranjo on
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    EzekielEzekiel Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    McSnuggles wrote: »
    So I just fought the only competent zerg in the game who was able to get a proper baneling bust.

    I've never lost to a baneling bust, because apparently all zerg are absolutely awful at it.

    Psssh whateva

    Ezekiel on
    428475-1.png
    I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
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