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[Starcraft 2] Multiplayer discussion. Nerf Terran, Zerg, and Protoss please.

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    EzekielEzekiel Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Jutranjo wrote: »
    McSnuggles wrote: »
    So I just fought the only competent zerg in the game who was able to get a proper baneling bust.

    I've never lost to a baneling bust, because apparently all zerg are absolutely awful at it.

    Any chance you could upload this replay please? I have no clue how to baneling bust properly.

    13 Gas, 13 Pool
    First 100 gas to speed
    Next 50 gas to baneling nest
    Next 150 gas to 6 banelings
    Pop and follow right away with speedlings.

    You can bane with your first 50 gas instead, and go without speed but I don't find it to be as potent.

    Ezekiel on
    428475-1.png
    I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
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    JutranjoJutranjo Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Ezekiel wrote: »
    Jutranjo wrote: »
    McSnuggles wrote: »
    So I just fought the only competent zerg in the game who was able to get a proper baneling bust.

    I've never lost to a baneling bust, because apparently all zerg are absolutely awful at it.

    Any chance you could upload this replay please? I have no clue how to baneling bust properly.

    13 Gas, 13 Pool
    First 100 gas to speed
    Next 50 gas to baneling nest
    Next 150 gas to 6 banelings
    Pop and follow right away with speedlings.

    You can bane with your first 50 gas instead, and go without speed but I don't find it to be as potent.

    Much thanks.

    Jutranjo on
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    KambingKambing Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    valiance wrote: »
    just lost a zvp to a guy who went colossus/stalker.. what do I do to kill that? the stalkers protect the colossuses from air, and the colossuses annihilate all my ground... halp

    http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60001-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

    I think you over committed to your muta force. Mutas are great for harass, complement an army well in a pinch, but won't be able to stand up to a giant stalker ball. You definitely could've gotten away with ~5-6 mutas for harass and then dedicated your resources to more hydras and then corruptors for the colossi. Also, even with your skewed composition, you could've put some hurt on the colossi as they marched across the field for the death push. This would've also delayed the push to let you get more forces up to fight off the ball.

    Before all that business, I think you also missed a good timing attack opportunity where you had hydras and he didn't have colossi yet. This is a great time (coupled with the range upgrade) to take your hydra force out and do some damage, hopefully pruning his stalker numbers considerably. A lot of the name of the game in ZvP is delaying death ball pushes and keeping his numbers low so he never gets to a critical mass of units. On the topic of pushing, you could've also moved your muta ball much earlier as they were idle in your base for ~2 minutes before any action happened.

    Other tech options would be roaches with burrow or fast teching to ultralisks with armor upgrades.

    Kambing on
    @TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
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    McSnugglesMcSnuggles Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Ezekiel wrote: »
    Jutranjo wrote: »
    McSnuggles wrote: »
    So I just fought the only competent zerg in the game who was able to get a proper baneling bust.

    I've never lost to a baneling bust, because apparently all zerg are absolutely awful at it.

    Any chance you could upload this replay please? I have no clue how to baneling bust properly.

    13 Gas, 13 Pool
    First 100 gas to speed
    Next 50 gas to baneling nest
    Next 150 gas to 6 banelings
    Pop and follow right away with speedlings.

    You can bane with your first 50 gas instead, and go without speed but I don't find it to be as potent.

    The reason I lost was because a HUGE amount of D zerg that try and baneling bust end up doing it 30 seconds to a minute later then the guy I played, which gives me ample time to either A-kill his morphing guys/lings with my hellions, or B-get enough forces to fight off his rush anyways.

    Edit: IE I've never fought someone doing the most efficient BO for a baneling bust.

    McSnuggles on
    360 Gamertag: Mcsnuggles
    371610-1.png
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    EzekielEzekiel Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    BEFORE you morph them, send a ling up the ramp to verify what his wall is doing. If you know you can't break it, dont even morph them, but you still have the nest to turn to if he goes bio later. 13 feels like a recoverable econ, and round the time you make the decision to morph...you can opt to expand right then instead.

    Ezekiel on
    428475-1.png
    I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
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    StokedUpStokedUp Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Baneling busting seems like such a bad habit.

    Well no never mind, baneling bust terrrans. Just be careful focusing on busting a toss since its easy to just splash against a wall that way and lose.

    StokedUp on
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    EzekielEzekiel Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    StokedUp wrote: »
    Baneling busting seems like such a bad habit.

    Well no never mind, baneling bust terrrans. Just be careful focusing on busting a toss since its easy to just splash against a wall that way and lose.

    You need like 8+ banelings to bust up a ramp full of zealots, those damned shields. Much harder to get the damage done and much harder to recover from econ wise.

    Ezekiel on
    428475-1.png
    I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
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    valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Kambing wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    just lost a zvp to a guy who went colossus/stalker.. what do I do to kill that? the stalkers protect the colossuses from air, and the colossuses annihilate all my ground... halp

    http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60001-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

    I think you over committed to your muta force. Mutas are great for harass, complement an army well in a pinch, but won't be able to stand up to a giant stalker ball. You definitely could've gotten away with ~5-6 mutas for harass and then dedicated your resources to more hydras and then corruptors for the colossi. Also, even with your skewed composition, you could've put some hurt on the colossi as they marched across the field for the death push. This would've also delayed the push to let you get more forces up to fight off the ball.

    Before all that business, I think you also missed a good timing attack opportunity where you had hydras and he didn't have colossi yet. This is a great time (coupled with the range upgrade) to take your hydra force out and do some damage, hopefully pruning his stalker numbers considerably. A lot of the name of the game in ZvP is delaying death ball pushes and keeping his numbers low so he never gets to a critical mass of units. On the topic of pushing, you could've also moved your muta ball much earlier as they were idle in your base for ~2 minutes before any action happened.

    Other tech options would be roaches with burrow or fast teching to ultralisks with armor upgrades.

    do ultras stand up to colossi?

    I just feel like zerg always lose in straight up fight. every other race has a deathball but I feel like my guys just die when massed up.

    his colossi counter my mass ground (and lets not talk about psi storm), but I have nothing to counter his mass.. im just fucked

    same thing with tanks and mmm balls (tho at least these you can baneling)

    would infestors have helped? somehow?

    I know I needed to hit him hard with lings early when I saw the early expo but he fought me off with the mineral line cannon and the zeals. watching the replay I'm thinking I woulda won it if I went all at once with all my lings, or if Id focused the stalkers down instead of going for the cannon in the min line.

    I think I just dont really know what to do midgame. I like mutas because I can harrass with them and avoid a straight up fight (which i always lose) but mutas do nothing to help my army everything shreds them. and I dont know why people like hydras they seem to get ate by everything. maybe if (like you said) I hit with those hydras pre-colossus I coulda won....

    he also out-resourced me all early game, basically until i got an expo up as well.. he shouldnt have been able to fight off my lings with no block and all economy, but somehow he did.. that fucked me I think, more than anything

    valiance on
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    His CorkinessHis Corkiness Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Joe K wrote: »
    shields always took full damage in BW, regardless of unit size. apparently in SC2, the get the same attributes as HPs of the unit. Its been bandied about here, but I really havent seen a canonical source on it, and i've looked.
    Test it, then. I did and that was the case.

    His Corkiness on
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    CasedOutCasedOut Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    valiance wrote: »
    Kambing wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    just lost a zvp to a guy who went colossus/stalker.. what do I do to kill that? the stalkers protect the colossuses from air, and the colossuses annihilate all my ground... halp

    http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60001-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

    I think you over committed to your muta force. Mutas are great for harass, complement an army well in a pinch, but won't be able to stand up to a giant stalker ball. You definitely could've gotten away with ~5-6 mutas for harass and then dedicated your resources to more hydras and then corruptors for the colossi. Also, even with your skewed composition, you could've put some hurt on the colossi as they marched across the field for the death push. This would've also delayed the push to let you get more forces up to fight off the ball.

    Before all that business, I think you also missed a good timing attack opportunity where you had hydras and he didn't have colossi yet. This is a great time (coupled with the range upgrade) to take your hydra force out and do some damage, hopefully pruning his stalker numbers considerably. A lot of the name of the game in ZvP is delaying death ball pushes and keeping his numbers low so he never gets to a critical mass of units. On the topic of pushing, you could've also moved your muta ball much earlier as they were idle in your base for ~2 minutes before any action happened.

    Other tech options would be roaches with burrow or fast teching to ultralisks with armor upgrades.

    do ultras stand up to colossi?

    I just feel like zerg always lose in straight up fight. every other race has a deathball but I feel like my guys just die when massed up.

    his colossi counter my mass ground (and lets not talk about psi storm), but I have nothing to counter his mass.. im just fucked

    same thing with tanks and mmm balls (tho at least these you can baneling)

    would infestors have helped? somehow?

    I know I needed to hit him hard with lings early when I saw the early expo but he fought me off with the mineral line cannon and the zeals. watching the replay I'm thinking I woulda won it if I went all at once with all my lings, or if Id focused the stalkers down instead of going for the cannon in the min line.

    I think I just dont really know what to do midgame. I like mutas because I can harrass with them and avoid a straight up fight (which i always lose) but mutas do nothing to help my army everything shreds them. and I dont know why people like hydras they seem to get ate by everything. maybe if (like you said) I hit with those hydras pre-colossus I coulda won....

    he also out-resourced me all early game, basically until i got an expo up as well.. he shouldnt have been able to fight off my lings with no block and all economy, but somehow he did.. that fucked me I think, more than anything

    edit: I don't even want people to see what I put

    CasedOut on
    452773-1.png
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    SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Well that guy had an...interesting build order. Supply Depot, Double Gas, Barracks, Factory, 2 starport mass banshees.

    Shame I countered it with "oh look I built Vikings Ravens and Siege Tanks" then he makes BCs. Why do people make capital ships? They're kinda worthless unless you add them into a large group of vikings/banshees or in Tosses case Void Rays.

    SkutSkut on
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    redxxiiredxxii Persona Non Grata Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Well, got promoted to Platinum, and then I lose my first game to Mass Void Rays.... seriously, fuck this shit....

    redxxii on
    LoL: Handweasel
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    ICCup currently streaming their tournament (I think the same one of the last few days).

    Aegis on
    We'll see how long this blog lasts
    Currently DMing: None :(
    Characters
    [5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
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    Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Joe K wrote: »
    shields always took full damage in BW, regardless of unit size. apparently in SC2, the get the same attributes as HPs of the unit. Its been bandied about here, but I really havent seen a canonical source on it, and i've looked.
    Test it, then. I did and that was the case.

    Ok, dumb question time - how?

    and, why isn't this like spelled out by blizzard somewhere? Its a fairly drastic change to the mechanism of shields.

    Joe K on
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    verpakeyesverpakeyes Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Anyone know of some good TvT replays to watch? My biggest problem I think is not knowing how to get enough vespene gas to put on any real pressure after my opponent has massed tanks and commenced turtling.

    verpakeyes on
    pajoewangsexcrow.jpgXBOX live: verpa 15
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    redxxiiredxxii Persona Non Grata Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Okay, and strategies in ZvP where he turtles in with mass cannons and masses Void Rays? I've lost several games to this strategy, and I just can't figure out a way to beat it. I out Macro my opponent and get a ton of Hydras/Mutas/Queens, etc, but I just can't seem to beat this. It's getting so frustrating... it doesn't seem to matter how many units I get, when those Void Rays get fully charged they just destroy my army.

    redxxii on
    LoL: Handweasel
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    BurguBurgu Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I just came here to post the same thing as Redxxii. I am so incredibly frustrated right now. For the past 3 games in a row against protoss, i've faced nonstop void ray harass. It would be one thing if it was on open ground, but these fuckers come in, kill all my drones, and by the time my hydras get over, they move on to my expansions.

    And the bitch of it is, I scouted this out, I knew he was making void rays, so I started making spores, infiltrators and hydras, but none of those units can chase him away and finish him off, they can only make him retreat for a moment.

    I'm getting so fed up with this shit. Zerg just doesn't seem to have much to handle this.

    Burgu on
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    His CorkinessHis Corkiness Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Joe K wrote: »
    Joe K wrote: »
    shields always took full damage in BW, regardless of unit size. apparently in SC2, the get the same attributes as HPs of the unit. Its been bandied about here, but I really havent seen a canonical source on it, and i've looked.
    Test it, then. I did and that was the case.

    Ok, dumb question time - how?

    and, why isn't this like spelled out by blizzard somewhere? Its a fairly drastic change to the mechanism of shields.
    Start a game vs Very Easy AI as Protoss. Build two Stalkers. Have one attack the other, and note how much damage it does to the shields, and the health. Stalkers get +4 vs Armored and have 1 Armor, so they should do 14 damage per hit to each-other's shields, and 13 to each-other's health. Do the same to a Zealot if you want to be super sure.

    His Corkiness on
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    McSnugglesMcSnuggles Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I got a fun 50 minute or so long diamond TvT.

    Warning: Contains shit loads of battlecruisers.

    repimg-33-140654.jpg

    Edit: Damnit I could have won like 20-30 minutes earlier.

    McSnuggles on
    360 Gamertag: Mcsnuggles
    371610-1.png
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    Joe KJoe K Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Burgu wrote: »
    I just came here to post the same thing as Redxxii. I am so incredibly frustrated right now. For the past 3 games in a row against protoss, i've faced nonstop void ray harass. It would be one thing if it was on open ground, but these fuckers come in, kill all my drones, and by the time my hydras get over, they move on to my expansions.

    And the bitch of it is, I scouted this out, I knew he was making void rays, so I started making spores, infiltrators and hydras, but none of those units can chase him away and finish him off, they can only make him retreat for a moment.

    I'm getting so fed up with this shit. Zerg just doesn't seem to have much to handle this.

    you should try it as Protoss. The only counter is to have more voidrays or charged HT's in exactly the right spot before theyre charged.

    Because stalkers are armored, and take double rape damage from VRs.

    Joe K on
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    DroolDrool Science! AustinRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I've had pretty good luck with Hydras plus Mutas vs Void rays, but haven't faced a proper mass of them really before I had plenty of defense. Taking one of his gases is a good way to slow him down and give you time to mass up units.

    Drool on
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    StokedUpStokedUp Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Joe K wrote: »
    Burgu wrote: »
    I just came here to post the same thing as Redxxii. I am so incredibly frustrated right now. For the past 3 games in a row against protoss, i've faced nonstop void ray harass. It would be one thing if it was on open ground, but these fuckers come in, kill all my drones, and by the time my hydras get over, they move on to my expansions.

    And the bitch of it is, I scouted this out, I knew he was making void rays, so I started making spores, infiltrators and hydras, but none of those units can chase him away and finish him off, they can only make him retreat for a moment.

    I'm getting so fed up with this shit. Zerg just doesn't seem to have much to handle this.

    you should try it as Protoss. The only counter is to have more voidrays or charged HT's in exactly the right spot before theyre charged.

    Because stalkers are armored, and take double rape damage from VRs.

    As a toss player.. I find banshee harrass far more devastating.

    StokedUp on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    McSnuggles wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    Doomninja wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    Doomninja wrote: »
    While we're theorycrafting:

    Make mauraders cost 75 gas, or even 100? Forces more consideration on army composition ex: Ghosts, early reapers etc

    Give qeens more starting energy so there's a pool to help with transfusing vs early agression. Increase range by 1

    Increase hydra base land speed?

    Make sentries cost 25 less gas.

    Thoughts?

    75 gas for a tier 1 unit that doesn't have spells? Or 100?
    D:

    yeah, might be a bit steep, but at least it has 2 tier 1 upgrades that are cheap and in the case of Stim it benefits multiple units.

    I would rather pay 200/200 for stims than have marauders cost 50 gas, much less 100.

    Marauders are strong, but 100 gas? That's literally insane.

    I don't agree with a cost nerf. If you want to nerf them, perhaps nerf their move speed slightly and maybe take ten hp off.

    Or maybe make stim actually do something negative since it lasts a fortnight you can stim, heal, and run in quite comfortably

    override367 on
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    StokedUpStokedUp Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    marauders 50 gas boom fixed.

    StokedUp on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    How about just making stim last like 5 seconds

    override367 on
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    TalithTalith 変態という名の紳士 Miami, FLRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    That would mean 3 marauders would be 300/150/6, compare that to a Thor which is 300/200/6, or 3 marines and a ghost for 300/150/5.

    Talith on
    7244qyoka3pp.gif
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    StokedUpStokedUp Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Talith wrote: »
    That would mean 3 marauders would be 300/150/6, compare that to a Thor which is 300/200/6, or 3 marines and a ghost for 300/150/5.

    Whats your point? 3 stalkers is 375/150. compare that to a collossus which is 300/200.

    edit: it would make terran not be able to have marauders and mass tanks, ghosts, vikings and everything else.

    StokedUp on
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    NylonathetepNylonathetep Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    valiance wrote: »

    do ultras stand up to colossi?

    I just feel like zerg always lose in straight up fight. every other race has a deathball but I feel like my guys just die when massed up.

    his colossi counter my mass ground (and lets not talk about psi storm), but I have nothing to counter his mass.. im just fucked

    same thing with tanks and mmm balls (tho at least these you can baneling)

    would infestors have helped? somehow?

    I know I needed to hit him hard with lings early when I saw the early expo but he fought me off with the mineral line cannon and the zeals. watching the replay I'm thinking I woulda won it if I went all at once with all my lings, or if Id focused the stalkers down instead of going for the cannon in the min line.

    I think I just dont really know what to do midgame. I like mutas because I can harrass with them and avoid a straight up fight (which i always lose) but mutas do nothing to help my army everything shreds them. and I dont know why people like hydras they seem to get ate by everything. maybe if (like you said) I hit with those hydras pre-colossus I coulda won....

    he also out-resourced me all early game, basically until i got an expo up as well.. he shouldn't have been able to fight off my lings with no block and all economy, but somehow he did.. that fucked me I think, more than anything

    For now Zerg relies on positioning and other tricks you can do with positioning when it comes to countering other race's dead ball... an Infestor position on a high cliff can parasite your opponent's colossi... fungal growth and burrow is not a bad idea either... burrowing roaches, baneling mines, and quick zergling surround are also pretty deadly when execute correctly...

    I rarely seen an overlord drop but it's actually a pretty viable strategy that I hope to see more often in Zerg game play, especially against a less mobile Terran Mech army.

    There's always the popular option of going Corruptor/Guardian... I think Zerg has the strongest Tire 3 air unit composition because basically you can have infinite cracklings and there's nothing the opponent can do about it once he's engaged because the crackling surround the unit quickly making them immobile.

    Ultralisk however.. are just utter crap in their current form..

    Nylonathetep on
    714353-1.png
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    JerikTelorianJerikTelorian Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Has anyone had problems getting Mumble going in SC2? My friend can connect to my mumble server, but his voice inexplicably stops transmittinga few seconds after SC2 is running. He lights up in the overlay but no voice is transmitting. I have several other friends who have it running just fine (as well as myself). This happened to anyone else?

    JerikTelorian on
    SteamID -- JerikTelorian
    XBL: LiquidSnake2061
    Shade wrote: »
    Anyone notice how some things (mattresses and the copy machines in Highrise) are totally impenetrable? A steel wall, yeah that makes sense, but bullets should obliterate copy machines.

    I don't know about you, but I always buy a bullet proof printer. Its a lot more expensive, but I think the advantages are apparent.
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    KambingKambing Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    valiance wrote: »
    Kambing wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    just lost a zvp to a guy who went colossus/stalker.. what do I do to kill that? the stalkers protect the colossuses from air, and the colossuses annihilate all my ground... halp

    http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60001-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

    I think you over committed to your muta force. Mutas are great for harass, complement an army well in a pinch, but won't be able to stand up to a giant stalker ball. You definitely could've gotten away with ~5-6 mutas for harass and then dedicated your resources to more hydras and then corruptors for the colossi. Also, even with your skewed composition, you could've put some hurt on the colossi as they marched across the field for the death push. This would've also delayed the push to let you get more forces up to fight off the ball.

    Before all that business, I think you also missed a good timing attack opportunity where you had hydras and he didn't have colossi yet. This is a great time (coupled with the range upgrade) to take your hydra force out and do some damage, hopefully pruning his stalker numbers considerably. A lot of the name of the game in ZvP is delaying death ball pushes and keeping his numbers low so he never gets to a critical mass of units. On the topic of pushing, you could've also moved your muta ball much earlier as they were idle in your base for ~2 minutes before any action happened.

    Other tech options would be roaches with burrow or fast teching to ultralisks with armor upgrades.

    do ultras stand up to colossi?

    I just feel like zerg always lose in straight up fight. every other race has a deathball but I feel like my guys just die when massed up.

    his colossi counter my mass ground (and lets not talk about psi storm), but I have nothing to counter his mass.. im just fucked

    same thing with tanks and mmm balls (tho at least these you can baneling)

    would infestors have helped? somehow?

    I know I needed to hit him hard with lings early when I saw the early expo but he fought me off with the mineral line cannon and the zeals. watching the replay I'm thinking I woulda won it if I went all at once with all my lings, or if Id focused the stalkers down instead of going for the cannon in the min line.

    I think I just dont really know what to do midgame. I like mutas because I can harrass with them and avoid a straight up fight (which i always lose) but mutas do nothing to help my army everything shreds them. and I dont know why people like hydras they seem to get ate by everything. maybe if (like you said) I hit with those hydras pre-colossus I coulda won....

    he also out-resourced me all early game, basically until i got an expo up as well.. he shouldnt have been able to fight off my lings with no block and all economy, but somehow he did.. that fucked me I think, more than anything

    Armored ultras can eat through stalkers and colossi since they're both armored. However, that's not an answer to mid-game stalker/colossi balls. A hydra/zergling/corruptor mix can hold that off until you get to higher tech.

    Anyways, "counter" is a pretty deceptive term here. Some units are better than others, but in the large scheme of things, unit composition is only one part of the story. It is true that an a-moved 200 zerg ball will likely die to a 200 protoss ball. But there's far more factors here under your control if the toss is sitting in his base macroing up a death ball:

    1) Economy: you should be taking more bases to get/maintain an economy lead while keeping up with the production capabilities of your opponent
    2) Harassment: you should be poking at your enemy to keep his economy down, his army size reasonable, and his focus split
    3) Map control: you should be taking control of watchtowers, getting spotter lings and overlords into position, and creeping as much as possible so when the big encounter occurs, you can force the fight to occur in a favorable area and also react and reinforce appropriately to what your opponent throws at you.

    And yeah, your opponent did out-eco you during most of the match although food counts were roughly even when it was fight time. In general though, if your opponent is picking up his natural ahead of you, you are way behind.
    Ultralisk however.. are just utter crap in their current form..

    That's hasn't been true since the end of beta. Un-upgraded ultras are squishy, but once you have plating and 2/2, ultras tear through protoss and terran balls given appropriate positioning and flanking.

    Kambing on
    @TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
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    valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    Kambing wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    just lost a zvp to a guy who went colossus/stalker.. what do I do to kill that? the stalkers protect the colossuses from air, and the colossuses annihilate all my ground... halp

    http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60001-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

    I think you over committed to your muta force. Mutas are great for harass, complement an army well in a pinch, but won't be able to stand up to a giant stalker ball. You definitely could've gotten away with ~5-6 mutas for harass and then dedicated your resources to more hydras and then corruptors for the colossi. Also, even with your skewed composition, you could've put some hurt on the colossi as they marched across the field for the death push. This would've also delayed the push to let you get more forces up to fight off the ball.

    Before all that business, I think you also missed a good timing attack opportunity where you had hydras and he didn't have colossi yet. This is a great time (coupled with the range upgrade) to take your hydra force out and do some damage, hopefully pruning his stalker numbers considerably. A lot of the name of the game in ZvP is delaying death ball pushes and keeping his numbers low so he never gets to a critical mass of units. On the topic of pushing, you could've also moved your muta ball much earlier as they were idle in your base for ~2 minutes before any action happened.

    Other tech options would be roaches with burrow or fast teching to ultralisks with armor upgrades.

    do ultras stand up to colossi?

    I just feel like zerg always lose in straight up fight. every other race has a deathball but I feel like my guys just die when massed up.

    his colossi counter my mass ground (and lets not talk about psi storm), but I have nothing to counter his mass.. im just fucked

    same thing with tanks and mmm balls (tho at least these you can baneling)

    would infestors have helped? somehow?

    I know I needed to hit him hard with lings early when I saw the early expo but he fought me off with the mineral line cannon and the zeals. watching the replay I'm thinking I woulda won it if I went all at once with all my lings, or if Id focused the stalkers down instead of going for the cannon in the min line.

    I think I just dont really know what to do midgame. I like mutas because I can harrass with them and avoid a straight up fight (which i always lose) but mutas do nothing to help my army everything shreds them. and I dont know why people like hydras they seem to get ate by everything. maybe if (like you said) I hit with those hydras pre-colossus I coulda won....

    he also out-resourced me all early game, basically until i got an expo up as well.. he shouldnt have been able to fight off my lings with no block and all economy, but somehow he did.. that fucked me I think, more than anything

    edit: I don't even want people to see what I put

    ?? if you have some advice itd be welcome

    http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/60001-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

    :^: thanks kambing and Nylonathetep for commenting

    valiance on
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    INeedNoSaltINeedNoSalt with blood on my teeth Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    anyone having trouble connecting to bnet?

    INeedNoSalt on
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    DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    You know, for Zerg supposedly being weaksauce, Slush is kicking ass on the ICCup with them.

    Derrick on
    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    zerg aren't really THAT weaksauce, but you have to work larvae quite a bit harder than the other races I think..

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    KambingKambing Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Derrick wrote: »
    You know, for Zerg supposedly being weaksauce, Slush is kicking ass on the ICCup with them.

    To be fair, looking at who slush has played against so far, he hasn't really met someone of his caliber yet. I expect drewbie v. slush will be more interesting.

    This also raises a fair point: player skill still ultimately trumps over game imbalance, perceived or otherwise.

    Kambing on
    @TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
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    DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    No Day9 daily today?

    Derrick on
    Steam and CFN: Enexemander
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Day9's in Germany casting that tournament for the foreseeable future.

    Aegis on
    We'll see how long this blog lasts
    Currently DMing: None :(
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    KambingKambing Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Derrick wrote: »
    No Day9 daily today?

    Day's still casting IEM at Gamescon. No dailies until next week as Gamescon ends on Friday/Saturday.

    Kambing on
    @TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
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    DibsDibs Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Can someone link the ICCup stream?

    Dibs on
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    KambingKambing Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Dibs wrote: »
    Can someone link the ICCup stream?

    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/iccup-tv

    Kambing on
    @TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
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