Yeah, cause Sorcerers are all about charisma and get lots of spells per day, while Wizards have to really pump a lot into int and we all know jedi aren't that bright at the best of-
As mentioned above, Jedi Sage I thought would have been a good name. I could also see Jedi Seer as the Consulars are their Seers and what not. I still chuckle at wizard ... and its followed by tears.
Man... I hoped I would avoid this stupid debate here. :P The official forums are poisoning you guys! Jedi Wizard sounds good to me. It sounds wise, makes me think of old Ben Kenobi or Yoda.
I guess I always pictured them more like cute dirty squigs from warhammer, minus the vicious teeth.
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
I thought a nerf was that mystical force that routinely degenerates the power level of WoW warlocks. And that the herders job was to keep that holy force flowing in a direct beam at Warlocks so we all can enjoy the game without suddenly dropping dead in PvP from a dozen debuffs.
I guess there's been some nerf herder cutbacks lately at Blizzard. Maybe Bioware will hire them?
If I name a Jedi Wizard, Dumbledore how mad do you think SW Geeks will get at me? :-)
This game is looking really good, I hope it does well. Not saying it'll be a WoW Killer, but I hope it sticks around for years. This seems to have a lot of polish pre-release, i'd love to see what they can do after having years to update it.
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KazooGet in the van.I have candy.Registered Userregular
They really need to change the name of Jedi Wizard class to something else.
That's worse than Bounty Hunter Powertech. Jedi Wizard. I'll probably never be able to kill a Wizard in PVP because I'll be laughing to hard at their ridiculous class name.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
I still think BioWare missed a huge opportunity to go the GW2 route and break the "holy trinity" of Tank/Heal/DPS, by removing the "heal" part as a dedicated class.
That probably sounds weird coming from someone who plays a dedicated healer in WoW, I just think the holy trinity is getting stale after 30+ years of traversing video and pen & paper games. Obviously that wasn't their design goal, I guess I just secretly hoped they would take the KoToR route of healing coming mostly from medpacks, with a smattering of healing from the Jedi, but not a true dedicated healer.
e: Also, here's to hoping that all the healer classes are ACTIVE healers, not just stand in the back slinging force power healers. Healing should be a by-product of them doing other Jedi-like things.
GnomeTank, that's a good point. I mean, I can't think of one canonical instance of a Jedi "healing" someone.
And re: Jedi Wizard, it makes sense to me. Jedi is just a name, like Christian, or Buddhist. Being a Jedi doesn't mean they are instantly Luke/Vader-level casters.
Unfortunately, Wizard may be a canonical term for a caster (see: Obi-Wan), but everything in Star Wars has a Dark side...
Meh, the only downside to having the 'trinity' is that it means you have to wait to form groups if there aren't tanks and healers around, and TOR is trying to avoid that by letting you have your companions fill those roles.
Like it or not, in a MMO game, if you don't have dedicated healers then it hamstrings the encounters you can design. If everybody just heals themselves then you basically can't have any encounters where a huge boss focuses on one guy, or else that guy is dead after he uses his self heal one time then gets hit a few more times.
If you want to have legit small group/raid encounters that are actually tactical and fun, you need somebody to be working to keep the enemy's attention, and somebody making sure everybody stays alive. The way some developers design encounters is archaic for sure, but it's not the trinity itself at fault. Warhammer is a good example of a game where the healers actively do more than just stand there smashing heal buttons, and I'm sure TOR will go in that direction too.
GnomeTank, that's a good point. I mean, I can't think of one canonical instance of a Jedi "healing" someone.
The only instance I can think of that's even close (and I don't think it's really 'healing') is when Ben Kenobi walks up on the Tusken Raiders, scares them off and then walks up to the KO'd Luke and puts his hands on his forehead and Luke wakes up soon after. I mean, that's it as far as I can remember, and it may have just been him looking for a pulse, I dunno.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Like it or not, in a MMO game, if you don't have dedicated healers then it hamstrings the encounters you can design. If everybody just heals themselves then you basically can't have any encounters where a huge boss focuses on one guy, or else that guy is dead after he uses his self heal one time then gets hit a few more times.
What do you do in Legend of Zelda, or Mario, or Ninja Gaiden? Just stand there and beat the boss? No, you move around so that he doesn't hit you. This revolutionary concept of dodging enemy attacks could be integrated into MMOs as well, and not just as a passive stat.
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NEO|PhyteThey follow the stars, bound together.Strands in a braid till the end.Registered Userregular
GnomeTank, that's a good point. I mean, I can't think of one canonical instance of a Jedi "healing" someone.
Like I pointed out last thread, after Luke meets some sand people, Obi Wan does some whatsit thing to Luke's face with his hand, which may or may not be force healing. Or just resisting the urge to jam his fingers through the whiny kid's temples.
NEO|Phyte on
It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing... And take away its pain.
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
Like it or not, in a MMO game, if you don't have dedicated healers then it hamstrings the encounters you can design. If everybody just heals themselves then you basically can't have any encounters where a huge boss focuses on one guy, or else that guy is dead after he uses his self heal one time then gets hit a few more times.
What do you do in Legend of Zelda, or Mario, or Ninja Gaiden? Just stand there and beat the boss? No, you move around so that he doesn't hit you. This revolutionary concept of dodging enemy attacks could be integrated into MMOs as well, and not just as a passive stat.
This is what I'm talking about. Tactics, positioning, movement, rock/paper/scissors counters. There is plenty of room for interesting tactical game play that doesn't involve the trinity.
I mean, shit, it worked in KoToR where we had no dedicated healer (even if you went with both Heals on your Jedi, you weren't a dedicated healer, you had many other roles to fill).
I'm pretty sure that if Obi-Wan did anything like "healing" on Luke, it was the Force equivalent of shaking someone awake. You guys have a good point, but waking someone who has been knocked unconscious is a far cry from healing the grievous wounds that would be inflicted by blasters or lightsabers. Just sayin.
Bottom line, I agree. The healer concept isn't the best, but whatever. The game won't be broken for having the trinity complex.
I still think BioWare missed a huge opportunity to go the GW2 route and break the "holy trinity" of Tank/Heal/DPS, by removing the "heal" part as a dedicated class.
That probably sounds weird coming from someone who plays a dedicated healer in WoW, I just think the holy trinity is getting stale after 30+ years of traversing video and pen & paper games. Obviously that wasn't their design goal, I guess I just secretly hoped they would take the KoToR route of healing coming mostly from medpacks, with a smattering of healing from the Jedi, but not a true dedicated healer.
e: Also, here's to hoping that all the healer classes are ACTIVE healers, not just stand in the back slinging force power healers. Healing should be a by-product of them doing other Jedi-like things.
warhammer did something with you said at the end, the warrior priest/DOK had a mana pool that regain mana when you hit someone in melee, when the archmage do damage he gain faster casting speed for his heals and same when he heal spam faster damage. i haven't played runepriest so i can't comment.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
WAR had some interesting mechanics with DoK and Warrior Priest, but even they had a "dedicated" healer in the Rune Priest/Zealot.
I'd much prefer to see all the healing classes in SWTOR be along the lines of DoK and Warrior Priest, where healing is a consequence of them performing some other action, such as damage.
WAR had some interesting mechanics with DoK and Warrior Priest, but even they had a "dedicated" healer in the Rune Priest/Zealot.
I'd much prefer to see all the healing classes in SWTOR be along the lines of DoK and Warrior Priest, where healing is a consequence of them performing some other action, such as damage.
and we don't know this, we have very little info outside of level 10 on petty mush anything, they can be spam bots, they can be warroir priest/dok.
your idea of healing is petty mush spam dps to heal the group to full, which sounds about as braindead as spaming holy light. and i played a paladin in wow since TBC launch i know braindead healing and braindead dps. and i am afraid GW2 will be just people spamming heroic strike the fastest to win, the game is not out yet and people are already calling their system to be the greatest thing to happen to mmos.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
WAR had some interesting mechanics with DoK and Warrior Priest, but even they had a "dedicated" healer in the Rune Priest/Zealot.
I'd much prefer to see all the healing classes in SWTOR be along the lines of DoK and Warrior Priest, where healing is a consequence of them performing some other action, such as damage.
and we don't know this, we have very little info outside of level 10 on petty mush anything, they can be spam bots, they can be warroir priest/dok.
your idea of healing is petty mush spam dps to heal the group to full, which sounds about as braindead as spaming holy light. and i played a paladin in wow since TBC launch i know braindead healing and braindead dps.
Considering my idea is that healing should be something that happens, not something one person has to concentrate on, then yes, I guess I want "braindead" healing. I'd much rather see people concentrate on something fun, and Star Wars related (firing a blaster, swinging a light saber, force choking a dude), then standing in the back of the group playing whack a mole.
I play a Priest in WoW, all healing is brain dead. It's Advanced Whack-A-Mole Simulator 1.0. That's not to say people can't enjoy it (there are times I enjoy it), but I think for the most part there are much more interesting things people could be doing with their time. If the entire group had the onus to help with healing (healing powers from the Jedi, medpacks for everyone else), it lets people concentrate more on being a bad ass and takes some of the stigma out of being a support class.
And of course we don't "know" how it's going to work yet, but this is a speculative discussion thread.
Like it or not, in a MMO game, if you don't have dedicated healers then it hamstrings the encounters you can design. If everybody just heals themselves then you basically can't have any encounters where a huge boss focuses on one guy, or else that guy is dead after he uses his self heal one time then gets hit a few more times.
What do you do in Legend of Zelda, or Mario, or Ninja Gaiden? Just stand there and beat the boss? No, you move around so that he doesn't hit you. This revolutionary concept of dodging enemy attacks could be integrated into MMOs as well, and not just as a passive stat.
That kind of combat just doesn't work in the MMO setting. Generally in MMOs dungeon/raid encounters are one big enemy versus a bunch of people. Is the boss going to just focus on one person at a time and they have to dodge roll out of the way of his attacks? Then that guy dies and the boss does it to the next person, and you just hope he dies before everybody is dead? The types of combat that exist in single player games just don't translate directly to a game where you're working cooperatively with a small or large number of other people.
I've heard that raid encounters in TOR might be more of a large scale battle type thing where you're fighting against a ton of enemies at once, in which case maybe you'll see smugglers using cover, jedi using knockdowns and stuff like that to prevent damage, but you still need somebody who can heal other people or else if 5 enemies focus on somebody they're dead and they have no chance of living if the only healing they have access to is a medkit.
There's nothing that says something like that can't work, it just winds up being really easy. The (PvE) challenge in an MMO is basically coordination; how well can the group all work together and accomplish tasks. If you make encounters highly individualized in that way, they wind up being really easy.
The reason for this is mainly that because of latency, an MMO can't really feature twitch gaming to the extent that an oldshcool platformer can.
edit: there isn't really a reason that there need to be a dedicated "healers" class in the vein of WoW, but if you want to boil it down that far encounters are always going to be 'whack-a-mole' ish.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
I don't think I, or anyone else, suggested taking healing out of the game, just removing the concept of a dedicated healer, who's only job is to stand in the back and toss out heals.
I'm tired of Tatooine having a central focus in Star Wars. Its a crappy backwater world whose main professions include farming FOR MOISTURE. How sad is that.
It is where stormtroopers go to die.
Well the theme thing going on is that some nobodies from such a backwater world grow up to be amazing heroes in the vast galaxy
The healer 'whose only job is to stand in the back and toss heals' doesn't really exist anyway
In TOR? Or in general? In the general sense, my Priest would like to have a word with you.
In TOR, how do we know that? Unless you're in beta and are just being obtuse because of the NDA.
in any mmo that I've played, anyway. "Stand in the back and toss heals" hasn't been true on really any content in WoW in a long time. I don't know how it'll work in ToR obviously but I doubt they would return to the old vanilla WoW/EQ model.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
The healer 'whose only job is to stand in the back and toss heals' doesn't really exist anyway
In TOR? Or in general? In the general sense, my Priest would like to have a word with you.
In TOR, how do we know that? Unless you're in beta and are just being obtuse because of the NDA.
in any mmo that I've played, anyway. "Stand in the back and toss heals" hasn't been true on really any content in WoW in a long time. I don't know how it'll work in ToR obviously but I doubt they would return to the old vanilla WoW/EQ model.
...I run heroics and 10-mans all the time on my Priest. Standing in the back and healing is 90% of my activity. I'm not counting tactical movement here, like getting out of pancakes of death. I'm talking about my primary activity in a group. It's healing. Could I sit and toss SW:P and DP if I wanted to? Yes. Is it the best use of my mana? No, because I'm a dedicated healer.
Well, right, if we refuse to consider all the other things that are going on, it's very easy to say that one person's job is to 'stand in the back and heal,' and another's is to 'stand in the back and shoot' and that the tank's job is to 'stand in the front and tank.'
But that's a really lazy description of the actual game that I suspect you're only offering to make a rhetorical point.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
Well, right, if we refuse to consider all the other things that are going on, it's very easy to say that one person's job is to 'stand in the back and heal,' and another's is to 'stand in the back and shoot' and that the tank's job is to 'stand in the front and tank.'
But that's a really lazy description of the actual game that I suspect you're only offering to make a rhetorical point.
A rhetorical point in so far as to say: "Standing in the back and shooting" and "Standing in the front and tanking" tend to be more interesting than "Standing in the back and healing", and if we could roll the third one, in to the fold of just sort of doing the first and second, it would make the game more interesting all the way around.
Posts
I'm sorry.
"Do not be too hasty in entering that room. I HAD TACO BELL FOR LUNCH!"
IGNORE ME! See, maybe "Grand Inquisitor Jedi" would work?
Man, that's what a nerf looks like?
I guess I always pictured them more like cute dirty squigs from warhammer, minus the vicious teeth.
I guess there's been some nerf herder cutbacks lately at Blizzard. Maybe Bioware will hire them?
Same here, 'cept with more fluff.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
If you have arms made of metal, are you going to try to send electricity through them?
"Space cows" was the best fuckin thing they could come up with?
I'd imagine they're inspired more by yaks than cows.
This game is looking really good, I hope it does well. Not saying it'll be a WoW Killer, but I hope it sticks around for years. This seems to have a lot of polish pre-release, i'd love to see what they can do after having years to update it.
That's worse than Bounty Hunter Powertech. Jedi Wizard. I'll probably never be able to kill a Wizard in PVP because I'll be laughing to hard at their ridiculous class name.
That probably sounds weird coming from someone who plays a dedicated healer in WoW, I just think the holy trinity is getting stale after 30+ years of traversing video and pen & paper games. Obviously that wasn't their design goal, I guess I just secretly hoped they would take the KoToR route of healing coming mostly from medpacks, with a smattering of healing from the Jedi, but not a true dedicated healer.
e: Also, here's to hoping that all the healer classes are ACTIVE healers, not just stand in the back slinging force power healers. Healing should be a by-product of them doing other Jedi-like things.
And re: Jedi Wizard, it makes sense to me. Jedi is just a name, like Christian, or Buddhist. Being a Jedi doesn't mean they are instantly Luke/Vader-level casters.
Unfortunately, Wizard may be a canonical term for a caster (see: Obi-Wan), but everything in Star Wars has a Dark side...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBzWJWoLmxE
Like it or not, in a MMO game, if you don't have dedicated healers then it hamstrings the encounters you can design. If everybody just heals themselves then you basically can't have any encounters where a huge boss focuses on one guy, or else that guy is dead after he uses his self heal one time then gets hit a few more times.
If you want to have legit small group/raid encounters that are actually tactical and fun, you need somebody to be working to keep the enemy's attention, and somebody making sure everybody stays alive. The way some developers design encounters is archaic for sure, but it's not the trinity itself at fault. Warhammer is a good example of a game where the healers actively do more than just stand there smashing heal buttons, and I'm sure TOR will go in that direction too.
The only instance I can think of that's even close (and I don't think it's really 'healing') is when Ben Kenobi walks up on the Tusken Raiders, scares them off and then walks up to the KO'd Luke and puts his hands on his forehead and Luke wakes up soon after. I mean, that's it as far as I can remember, and it may have just been him looking for a pulse, I dunno.
What do you do in Legend of Zelda, or Mario, or Ninja Gaiden? Just stand there and beat the boss? No, you move around so that he doesn't hit you. This revolutionary concept of dodging enemy attacks could be integrated into MMOs as well, and not just as a passive stat.
Like I pointed out last thread, after Luke meets some sand people, Obi Wan does some whatsit thing to Luke's face with his hand, which may or may not be force healing. Or just resisting the urge to jam his fingers through the whiny kid's temples.
Warframe/Steam: NFyt
This is what I'm talking about. Tactics, positioning, movement, rock/paper/scissors counters. There is plenty of room for interesting tactical game play that doesn't involve the trinity.
I mean, shit, it worked in KoToR where we had no dedicated healer (even if you went with both Heals on your Jedi, you weren't a dedicated healer, you had many other roles to fill).
I'm pretty sure that if Obi-Wan did anything like "healing" on Luke, it was the Force equivalent of shaking someone awake. You guys have a good point, but waking someone who has been knocked unconscious is a far cry from healing the grievous wounds that would be inflicted by blasters or lightsabers. Just sayin.
Bottom line, I agree. The healer concept isn't the best, but whatever. The game won't be broken for having the trinity complex.
warhammer did something with you said at the end, the warrior priest/DOK had a mana pool that regain mana when you hit someone in melee, when the archmage do damage he gain faster casting speed for his heals and same when he heal spam faster damage. i haven't played runepriest so i can't comment.
I'd much prefer to see all the healing classes in SWTOR be along the lines of DoK and Warrior Priest, where healing is a consequence of them performing some other action, such as damage.
and we don't know this, we have very little info outside of level 10 on petty mush anything, they can be spam bots, they can be warroir priest/dok.
your idea of healing is petty mush spam dps to heal the group to full, which sounds about as braindead as spaming holy light. and i played a paladin in wow since TBC launch i know braindead healing and braindead dps. and i am afraid GW2 will be just people spamming heroic strike the fastest to win, the game is not out yet and people are already calling their system to be the greatest thing to happen to mmos.
Considering my idea is that healing should be something that happens, not something one person has to concentrate on, then yes, I guess I want "braindead" healing. I'd much rather see people concentrate on something fun, and Star Wars related (firing a blaster, swinging a light saber, force choking a dude), then standing in the back of the group playing whack a mole.
I play a Priest in WoW, all healing is brain dead. It's Advanced Whack-A-Mole Simulator 1.0. That's not to say people can't enjoy it (there are times I enjoy it), but I think for the most part there are much more interesting things people could be doing with their time. If the entire group had the onus to help with healing (healing powers from the Jedi, medpacks for everyone else), it lets people concentrate more on being a bad ass and takes some of the stigma out of being a support class.
And of course we don't "know" how it's going to work yet, but this is a speculative discussion thread.
That kind of combat just doesn't work in the MMO setting. Generally in MMOs dungeon/raid encounters are one big enemy versus a bunch of people. Is the boss going to just focus on one person at a time and they have to dodge roll out of the way of his attacks? Then that guy dies and the boss does it to the next person, and you just hope he dies before everybody is dead? The types of combat that exist in single player games just don't translate directly to a game where you're working cooperatively with a small or large number of other people.
I've heard that raid encounters in TOR might be more of a large scale battle type thing where you're fighting against a ton of enemies at once, in which case maybe you'll see smugglers using cover, jedi using knockdowns and stuff like that to prevent damage, but you still need somebody who can heal other people or else if 5 enemies focus on somebody they're dead and they have no chance of living if the only healing they have access to is a medkit.
The reason for this is mainly that because of latency, an MMO can't really feature twitch gaming to the extent that an oldshcool platformer can.
edit: there isn't really a reason that there need to be a dedicated "healers" class in the vein of WoW, but if you want to boil it down that far encounters are always going to be 'whack-a-mole' ish.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
In TOR? Or in general? In the general sense, my Priest would like to have a word with you.
In TOR, how do we know that? Unless you're in beta and are just being obtuse because of the NDA.
Well the theme thing going on is that some nobodies from such a backwater world grow up to be amazing heroes in the vast galaxy
or something whatever IT COULD BE YOU!
in any mmo that I've played, anyway. "Stand in the back and toss heals" hasn't been true on really any content in WoW in a long time. I don't know how it'll work in ToR obviously but I doubt they would return to the old vanilla WoW/EQ model.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
...I run heroics and 10-mans all the time on my Priest. Standing in the back and healing is 90% of my activity. I'm not counting tactical movement here, like getting out of pancakes of death. I'm talking about my primary activity in a group. It's healing. Could I sit and toss SW:P and DP if I wanted to? Yes. Is it the best use of my mana? No, because I'm a dedicated healer.
But that's a really lazy description of the actual game that I suspect you're only offering to make a rhetorical point.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
A rhetorical point in so far as to say: "Standing in the back and shooting" and "Standing in the front and tanking" tend to be more interesting than "Standing in the back and healing", and if we could roll the third one, in to the fold of just sort of doing the first and second, it would make the game more interesting all the way around.