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Door-step Proseletizing

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  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    In order to continue this I present to you a question. Anyone can answer it.

    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (:(). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?

    And no, "Drop their beliefs and realise that there is no God" is not an option.

    If Heaven exists, do you think it would reward blind faith or doing the right thing?

    Personally? Doing the right thing. Part of the reason I left.

    These people aren't like that though, they believe that faith (they wouldn't call it 'Blind Faith') is the true path.

    Two different opinions though. If there is a heaven neither of our opinions will matter except for whatever the 'right' one would be.

    If they don't question their faith and it's ability to get them into Heaven, then it's blind faith. The right way is not always the easy way.

    Oh yes, I agree, it is blind faith (I was just saying they wouldn't call it that).

    Should someone who doesn't take the right way be held accountable though? In some situations, yes, but what about a religious mother of 4 who already has enough shit to take care of? She doesn't have time to fight political battles...heck, she might not know about the stuff that her religion is doing and doesn't have the time to look into it.

    Sipex on
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    We're not attacking every aspect of every individual Mormon. We're saying that as an organization, the Mormon church does some abhorrent shit, and as voluntary supporters of that organization, Mormons are directly or indirectly supporting the abhorrent actions.

    I question how "voluntary" it actually is. Most people are born, and then adopt whatever imaginary friend mom and dad had and are then raised in a community where they are indoctrinated that this is the way things are.

    If you are going to hang the Mormons for this, than every member of every religion must be held accountable for their religions actions.

    Well yeah, those are separate concerns I have with the religious indoctrination of children in general (which IMHO is pretty fucked up, but not really relevant to the thread). Those concerns aren't limited to Mormonism, you're right.

    Let's say I'm talking to an individual Mormon (or any religious adherent) who says "I was raised to believe these things, and now as an adult I'm beginning to think it's wrong, but it's really hard to think about because of how I was raised." I realize that's a really tough emotional and mental journey to make; I was raised strictly Catholic. I'm happy that person is re-examining things; I don't have a problem with that person.

    At that point, they can make a choice. Optimally (if I can take some things as a given), the person will realize that persecuting gays is wrong enough to leave the church that says it's right. Option B is "Well, I think it's wrong, but I'm going to stick with the church even though they say hating gays is OK." Option C is "I'm not going to think about it too hard; I was raised to believe that gays are bad, I'm going to keep believing it and stick with the church."

    I'm not going to have any sympathy for people who go with Option B or C. Option C is letting someone else do your thinking for you, and minorities get shit on as a result. Option B is not caring that you're supporting an organization that shits on minorities.

    BUT WAIT - what if the person goes with Option B because they like all the charitable stuff the church does? It doesn't make a lick of difference. There are many options by which that person can participate in charity through other organizations that don't persecute minorities. Or better yet, start your own religion/organization with all the good stuff and none of the bad stuff from your old religion! That shit isn't copyrighted! Book of Mormon 2.0! Gays and women are just as awesome as straight white dudes!

    (most of that wasn't aimed at you, nstf, I just sort of used your post as a jumping off point)

    edit: yeah, sidhaethe did this better and shorter.

    KalTorak on
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    In order to continue this I present to you a question. Anyone can answer it.

    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (:(). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?

    And no, "Drop their beliefs and realise that there is no God" is not an option.

    The question is, do they need to be Mormon™, or believe in the book of Mormon?

    Same goes for Catholics, or any hierarchical system of belief.

    Leaving the church doesn't make you less worthy in the eyes of your lord, it just means you aren't going to associate with or give money to assholes.

    If anything, your better off in his eyes for not agreeing with them.

    Very true, this would be a great way for religion to continue on in the modern world. Being practiced privately.

    Unfortunately some people aren't ready to take that step yet and some just like the idea of community through religion.

    Sipex on
  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    In order to continue this I present to you a question. Anyone can answer it.

    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (:(). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?

    And no, "Drop their beliefs and realise that there is no God" is not an option.

    How about actually applying some intellectualism and a mote of thought to their religion?

    sidhaethe put this really well. Yes, it's very hard to investigate something you have believed all your life, but I think among the more youthful sections of society, we are getting really really tired of people not critically thinking about things.

    DoctorArch on
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?
    Don't do what their religion tells them to do.

    I felt good and all washed clean of sin for the first time I had ever felt so in my life, and I knowed I could pray now. But I didn't do it straight off, but laid the paper down and set there thinking- thinking how good it was all this happened so, and how near I come to being lost and going to hell. And went on thinking. And got to thinking over our trip down the river; and I see Jim before me, all the time; in the day, and in the night-time, sometimes moonlight, sometimes storms, and we a floating along, talking, and singing, and laughing. But somehow I couldn't seem to strike no places to harden me against him, but only the other kind. I'd see him standing my watch on top of his'n, stead of calling me, so I could go on sleeping; and see him how glad he was when I come back out of the fog; and when I come to him agin in the swamp, up there where the feud was; and such-like times; and would always call me honey, and pet me, and do everything he could think of for me, and how good he always was; and at last I struck the time I saved him by telling the men we had smallpox aboard, and he was so grateful, and said I was the best friend old Jim ever had in the world, and the only one he's got now; and then I happened to look around, and see that paper.

    It was a close place. I took it up, and held it in my hand. I was a trembling, because I'd got to decide, forever, betwixt two things, and I knowed it. I studied a minute, sort of holding my breath, and then says to myself:

    "All right, then, I'll go to hell"- and tore it up.

    It was awful thoughts, and awful words, but they was said. And I let them stay said; and never thought no more about reforming. I shoved the whole thing out of my head; and said I would take up wickedness again, which was in my line, being brung up to it, and the other warn't. And for a starter, I would go to work and steal Jim out of slavery again; and if I could think up anything worse, I would do that, too; because as long as I was in, and in for good, I might as well go the whole hog.

    Couscous on
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    In order to continue this I present to you a question. Anyone can answer it.

    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (:(). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?

    And no, "Drop their beliefs and realise that there is no God" is not an option.

    If Heaven exists, do you think it would reward blind faith or doing the right thing?

    Personally? Doing the right thing. Part of the reason I left.

    These people aren't like that though, they believe that faith (they wouldn't call it 'Blind Faith') is the true path.

    Two different opinions though. If there is a heaven neither of our opinions will matter except for whatever the 'right' one would be.

    If they don't question their faith and it's ability to get them into Heaven, then it's blind faith. The right way is not always the easy way.

    Oh yes, I agree, it is blind faith (I was just saying they wouldn't call it that).

    Should someone who doesn't take the right way be held accountable though? In some situations, yes, but what about a religious mother of 4 who already has enough shit to take care of? She doesn't have time to fight political battles...heck, she might not know about the stuff that her religion is doing and doesn't have the time to look into it.

    She'd be too busy to even be actively involved in said religion then. Lots of people are apart of a "religion" without knowing shit all about it. The majority of the people I went to Catholic high school with knew next to nothing about the Bible, or cared about mass. It's a good judge of character when someone has the presence of mind and the interest to actually look beyond what they were brought up in and to actually think about what they believe, even if it leads to them becoming atheist or agnostic or agreeing with another religion.

    If she can't be bothered to learn about her religion, she isn't really in that religion.

    Corehealer on
    488W936.png
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    DoctorArch wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    In order to continue this I present to you a question. Anyone can answer it.

    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (:(). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?

    And no, "Drop their beliefs and realise that there is no God" is not an option.

    How about actually applying some intellectualism and a mote of thought to their religion?

    Expand on this a bit, it sounds inflammatory and too "Religion is for sheeple." although I'm willing to doubt you meant it that way.

    Sipex on
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    In order to continue this I present to you a question. Anyone can answer it.

    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (:(). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?

    And no, "Drop their beliefs and realise that there is no God" is not an option.

    If Heaven exists, do you think it would reward blind faith or doing the right thing?

    Personally? Doing the right thing. Part of the reason I left.

    These people aren't like that though, they believe that faith (they wouldn't call it 'Blind Faith') is the true path.

    Two different opinions though. If there is a heaven neither of our opinions will matter except for whatever the 'right' one would be.

    If they don't question their faith and it's ability to get them into Heaven, then it's blind faith. The right way is not always the easy way.

    Oh yes, I agree, it is blind faith (I was just saying they wouldn't call it that).

    Should someone who doesn't take the right way be held accountable though? In some situations, yes, but what about a religious mother of 4 who already has enough shit to take care of? She doesn't have time to fight political battles...heck, she might not know about the stuff that her religion is doing and doesn't have the time to look into it.

    She'd be too busy to even be actively involved in said religion then. Lots of people are apart of a "religion" without knowing shit all about it. The majority of the people I went to Catholic high school with knew next to nothing about the Bible, or cared about mass. It's a good judge of character when someone has the presence of mind and the interest to actually look beyond what they were brought up in and to actually think about what they believe, even if it leads to them becoming atheist or agnostic or agreeing with another religion.

    If she can't be bothered to learn about her religion, she isn't really in that religion.

    Well, for the sake of arguement she also includes going to church and other mandatory religious activities in her schedule (like the Mormon's home teaching or family home evening). This would define her as part of the religion to most.

    Sipex on
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?
    Don't do what their religion tells them to do.

    You're going to have to apply some understanding here since it seems extremely simple for you when it's not.

    What if, say, someone came online tomorrow and told you science is wrong! With a ton of thought out examples.

    We'd laugh at him, tell him he's crazy. Look at all this proof.




    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?

    This is the same position the family would be in compared to you. When you scream "Don't you see? Don't you see?" they just see someone who doesn't understand them and isn't willing too. They don't suddenly have epiphanies.

    Sipex on
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    DoctorArch wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    In order to continue this I present to you a question. Anyone can answer it.

    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (:(). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?

    And no, "Drop their beliefs and realise that there is no God" is not an option.

    How about actually applying some intellectualism and a mote of thought to their religion?

    Expand on this a bit, it sounds inflammatory and too "Religion is for sheeple." although I'm willing to doubt you meant it that way.

    Well, religion certainly isn't for people who are comfortable with existential uncertainty, that's for sure. Meaning, they eschew fear of the unknown by replacing it with random unprovable bullshit, comforted by wrong-headed assumption that being unprovable assures something's existence.

    You can't prove a negative, yet that's what all four Abrahamic faiths depend upon people not realizing.

    Atomika on
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?
    Don't do what their religion tells them to do.

    You're going to have to apply some understanding here since it seems extremely simple for you when it's not.

    What if, say, someone came online tomorrow and told you science is wrong! With a ton of thought out examples.

    We'd laugh at him, tell him he's crazy. Look at all this proof.




    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?

    This is the same position the family would be in compared to you. When you scream "Don't you see? Don't you see?" they just see someone who doesn't understand them and isn't willing too. They don't suddenly have epiphanies.


    2vae5fr.jpg

    Atomika on
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?
    Don't do what their religion tells them to do.

    You're going to have to apply some understanding here since it seems extremely simple for you when it's not.

    What if, say, someone came online tomorrow and told you science is wrong! With a ton of thought out examples.

    We'd laugh at him, tell him he's crazy. Look at all this proof.




    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?

    This is the same position the family would be in compared to you. When you scream "Don't you see? Don't you see?" they just see someone who doesn't understand them and isn't willing too. They don't suddenly have epiphanies.


    2vae5fr.jpg

    I can't see images at work. Your, no doubt, witty and insightful reply which adds to this discussion will have to wait.

    Sipex on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited September 2010

    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?
    His reasons for believing will still be stupid. Believing the Earth is round because a sphere is the most perfect thing and god would make the Earth perfect is still believing the Earth is round for a stupid reason.

    Couscous on
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Couscous wrote: »

    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?
    His reasons for believing will still be stupid. Believing the Earth is round because a sphere is the most perfect thing and god would make the Earth perfect is still believing the Earth is round for a stupid reason.

    I never said anything about what he was advocating as the right but this tells me a lot about you.

    I think I'm done debating with you, you're not going to listen, you just seem to think every opinion but your own is stupid.

    Sipex on
  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    DoctorArch wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    In order to continue this I present to you a question. Anyone can answer it.

    We have a family of Mormons. They believe they need to be Mormon to go to heaven (as most religions do). Now, they find out that their religion has done something bad (:(). They feel the need for religion to go to heaven. What do they do?

    And no, "Drop their beliefs and realise that there is no God" is not an option.

    How about actually applying some intellectualism and a mote of thought to their religion?

    Expand on this a bit, it sounds inflammatory and too "Religion is for sheeple." although I'm willing to doubt you meant it that way.

    For example, here's my big thing: The curse of Cain doctrine.

    The Mormon church since their inception have believed in the literal interpretation of the doctrine, in that Blacks are descended from Cain and that black skin is the fabled mark. Not only does this fly in the face of all scientific study of our ancestry, but it is a morally abhorrent position due to what it suggests. The church used this doctrine for years as a reason to deny Blacks any meaningful membership in their church, a policy that changed in the late 1970s as a result of external and internal pressure. The church never recanted their stance regarding the Curse, just that it was no longer a reason to deny meaningful membership. So far all intents and purposes, the church still to this day believe doctrinally and factually that blacks are descended from Cain.

    Now here's the problem: trying to reconcile your beliefs with bullshit. If the church is true, then Blacks are descended from Cain, period, and God just recently changed his mind allowing these cursed children to receive all the benefits of their splendid church. Not to mention all the religious malarky that states that the souls of blacks are those who were "less than valiant" in the pre-mortal life, thus their lower station on Earth was deserved. But try to ask a mormon to confront this problem, and that's where you will see fireworks.

    Essentially, if their church is absolutely true, which is a tenant of their faith, then Blacks are descended from Cain, period. But most modern people don't believe this, and regard it as utter bullshit. So what do Mormon's due when confronted with a schism between their faith and reality? Most, if not all, fail to follow the question to its logical conclusion because it involves a line of questioning that they are really uncomfortable with because it threatens their faith. Throw in the fact that the church strongly encourages blind faith and strongly discourages questioning of any sort, and you have a social conditioning which further causes problems.

    Have you ever wondered why the church strongly discourages questioning? Have you ever wondered why any totalitarian, controlling group discourages questioning? They all serve the same purpose, and thats to consolidate control and develop a subservient population. That's what I mean by "applying intellectualism." There are only a few intellectually honest routes to go when confronted by these issues, and most, if not all, refuse to pursue them.

    DoctorArch on
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  • sidhaethesidhaethe Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »

    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?
    His reasons for believing will still be stupid. Believing the Earth is round because a sphere is the most perfect thing and god would make the Earth perfect is still believing the Earth is round for a stupid reason.

    I never said anything about what he was advocating as the right but this tells me a lot about you.

    I think I'm done debating with you, you're not going to listen, you just seem to think every opinion but your own is stupid.

    Well, here's my question. You seem to be saying, through your examples, that these are people who can't be reasoned with. Yet you don't want us to write them off or make any other assumptions about them or their values.

    I mean, if they can't be reasoned with and therefore potentially "converted" so to speak to a less civil-rights-damning position outside of their religion, there's not much to be done, is there?

    sidhaethe on
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Couscous wrote: »

    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?
    His reasons for believing will still be stupid. Believing the Earth is round because a sphere is the most perfect thing and god would make the Earth perfect is still believing the Earth is round for a stupid reason.

    Science can never be wrong. Only things within it that are still being proven or disproven. As a whole, scientific disciplines are fundamental and necessary parts of our knowledge of the world, and cannot be wholly removed from the equation without basically saying Nihilism is right, kill yourself now.

    Religion should not deal in needing to prove anything, and people who feel it needs to and wear their religion on their arm and go door to door and build museums to prehistoric man chilling with Dinosaurs 4000 years ago are doing it wrong because they don't understand human spirituality and are looking for concrete answers where there are none and there are no need for them.

    Corehealer on
    488W936.png
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Yeah, when political/social pressure is making you change your bigoted ways, what's the best way to go about it? Say "You know what guys, we were wrong. Blacks are just the same as whites, we're sorry for oppressing you. We got it wrong."

    Nnnnnnnope, you just have your top guy have a dream that says "Hey, guess what! God just changed his mind! Like, last night! Yup, blacks are cool now. Who saw that one coming? Woo! Ain't obeying God great? (We were still right about blacks being shit yesterday though)."

    That is what they did.

    KalTorak on
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »

    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?
    His reasons for believing will still be stupid. Believing the Earth is round because a sphere is the most perfect thing and god would make the Earth perfect is still believing the Earth is round for a stupid reason.

    I never said anything about what he was advocating as the right but this tells me a lot about you.

    I think I'm done debating with you, you're not going to listen, you just seem to think every opinion but your own is stupid.

    Well, here's my question. You seem to be saying, through your examples, that these are people who can't be reasoned with. Yet you don't want us to write them off or make any other assumptions about them or their values.

    I mean, if they can't be reasoned with and therefore potentially "converted" so to speak to a less civil-rights-damning position outside of their religion, there's not much to be done, is there?

    I simply ask for you not to judge them for the whole of their religion but instead as they people they are. If they advocate keeping gays down then go ahead, judge them for that. If they don't but their religion does, then maybe give them some leeway here.

    Sipex on
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Yeah, when political/social pressure is making you change your bigoted ways, what's the best way to go about it? Say "You know what guys, we were wrong. Blacks are just the same as whites, we're sorry for oppressing you. We got it wrong."

    Nnnnnnnope, you just have your top guy have a dream that says "Hey, guess what! God just changed his mind! Like, last night! Yup, blacks are cool now. Who saw that one coming? Woo! Ain't obeying God great? (We were still right about blacks being shit yesterday though)."

    That is what they did.

    Augh, don't get me started on Cain. That is not something I'm advocating here and the last time it came up with family it got entirely too ridiculous.

    Sipex on
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Guys, what if math -all the numbers and equations you ever learned- turned out to be wrong?

    What if, guys?


    What if?




    You'd feel pretty stupid, amirite?

    Atomika on
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Corehealer wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »

    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?
    His reasons for believing will still be stupid. Believing the Earth is round because a sphere is the most perfect thing and god would make the Earth perfect is still believing the Earth is round for a stupid reason.

    Science can never be wrong. Only things within it that are still being proven or disproven. As a whole, scientific disciplines are fundamental and necessary parts of our knowledge of the world, and cannot be wholly removed from the equation without basically saying Nihilism is right, kill yourself now.

    Religion should not deal in needing to prove anything, and people who feel it needs to and wear their religion on their arm and go door to door and build museums to prehistoric man chilling with Dinosaurs 4000 years ago are doing it wrong because they don't understand human spirituality and are looking for concrete answers where there are none and there are no need for them.

    This is a good post, I agree.

    Sipex on
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Guys, what if math -all the numbers and equations you ever learned- turned out to be wrong?

    What if, guys?


    What if?




    You'd feel pretty stupid, amirite?

    This is the kind of response I was expecting, and to clarify I think science is right in a lot of ways.

    You're focusing on the wrong thing though. To these religious people when you deny their religion they get the same reaction that you just gave me, they can't fathom what the hell you're thinking. It's so simple to them, how can you not see it?

    Sipex on
  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »

    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?
    His reasons for believing will still be stupid. Believing the Earth is round because a sphere is the most perfect thing and god would make the Earth perfect is still believing the Earth is round for a stupid reason.

    I never said anything about what he was advocating as the right but this tells me a lot about you.

    I think I'm done debating with you, you're not going to listen, you just seem to think every opinion but your own is stupid.

    Well, here's my question. You seem to be saying, through your examples, that these are people who can't be reasoned with. Yet you don't want us to write them off or make any other assumptions about them or their values.

    I mean, if they can't be reasoned with and therefore potentially "converted" so to speak to a less civil-rights-damning position outside of their religion, there's not much to be done, is there?

    I simply ask for you not to judge them for the whole of their religion but instead as they people they are. If they advocate keeping gays down then go ahead, judge them for that. If they don't but their religion does, then maybe give them some leeway here.

    I know you mean well, but these people just don't "belong" to a religion. They belong to a monolithic, incredibly top-down, uber-controlling religion that encourages to the point of requirement money and time spent supporting the church's causes. Unless your Aunt is a coffee-swilling, non-tithing Jack Mormon, she is culpable for her church's actions by being a member due to the amount of control she allows the church to have upon her. She is choosing to submit herself to its control. That is where we claim the moral high ground, because we simply choose not to submit ourselves to a gay-bashing monolithic entity.

    DoctorArch on
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  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    DoctorArch wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »

    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?
    His reasons for believing will still be stupid. Believing the Earth is round because a sphere is the most perfect thing and god would make the Earth perfect is still believing the Earth is round for a stupid reason.

    I never said anything about what he was advocating as the right but this tells me a lot about you.

    I think I'm done debating with you, you're not going to listen, you just seem to think every opinion but your own is stupid.

    Well, here's my question. You seem to be saying, through your examples, that these are people who can't be reasoned with. Yet you don't want us to write them off or make any other assumptions about them or their values.

    I mean, if they can't be reasoned with and therefore potentially "converted" so to speak to a less civil-rights-damning position outside of their religion, there's not much to be done, is there?

    I simply ask for you not to judge them for the whole of their religion but instead as they people they are. If they advocate keeping gays down then go ahead, judge them for that. If they don't but their religion does, then maybe give them some leeway here.

    I know you mean well, but these people just don't "belong" to a religion. They belong to a monolithic, incredibly top-down, uber-controlling religion that encourages to the point of requirement money and time spent supporting the church's causes. Unless your Aunt is a coffee-swilling, non-tithing Jack Mormon, she is culpable for her church's actions by being a member due to the amount of control she allows the church to have upon her. She is choosing to submit herself to its control. That is where we claim the moral high ground, because we simply choose not to submit ourselves to a gay-bashing monolithic entity.

    You've shown you understand my position and I understand yours. Knowing that and what you've just said we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    Live and let live and all that.

    Sipex on
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    It's so simple to them, how can you not see it?

    Actually, I'd wager it's complicated as all-git-out to view religious dogma as practical reality.

    First, you have to generally be brainwashed from birth. Then, you're not allowed to ask questions about certain aspects of your belief. Then you have to believe things and do things that were only dictated to you, not motivated by your own intelligence. And finally you have to be able to ignore the reasoned and logical refutations offered by non-believers.

    Atomika on
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    You're simply flipping my arguement which is what i was getting at. It's so simple to you. There are so many influences. Why don't they get it?

    Sipex on
  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Yeah, when political/social pressure is making you change your bigoted ways, what's the best way to go about it? Say "You know what guys, we were wrong. Blacks are just the same as whites, we're sorry for oppressing you. We got it wrong."

    Nnnnnnnope, you just have your top guy have a dream that says "Hey, guess what! God just changed his mind! Like, last night! Yup, blacks are cool now. Who saw that one coming? Woo! Ain't obeying God great? (We were still right about blacks being shit yesterday though)."

    That is what they did.

    Augh, don't get me started on Cain. That is not something I'm advocating here and the last time it came up with family it got entirely too ridiculous.

    The fact that it's even an issue is what boggles us almost to the point of anger. This is what I mean by applying intellectualism. I've debated Cain with a Mormon apologist, and the mental gymnastics involved on their part in supporting their world view without admitting to being a horrible human being is astounding.

    edit: And honestly, perhaps my judgement towards people who believe in Cain as being horrible human beings is harsh, I don't care. It is a horrific and detestable belief, and the fact that one of the largest religions in the world still believes in it almost makes me cry.

    DoctorArch on
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  • GanluanGanluan Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    OK seriously, does someone have something proving this "excommunicate without tithe" thing? Everyone keeps saying it but no one will provide some kind of citation that this is current doctrine for that church.

    That and the whole "church contributed directly to Prop 8" thing (yes I know they encouraged members to donate and vote against it, but did the church contribute directly? Wouldn't that be a violation of non-profit rules?)

    Ganluan on
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    You're simply flipping my arguement which is what i was getting at. It's so simple to you. There are so many influences. Why don't they get it?

    Fucking magnets.

    Atomika on
  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Ganluan wrote: »
    OK seriously, does someone have something proving this "excommunicate without tithe" thing? Everyone keeps saying it but no one will provide some kind of citation that this is current doctrine for that church.

    I don't think anyone has said it since Than, but it's not true. You will not be excommunicated for not tithing. Tithing is strongly encouraged, and believed to be a requirement for all of the blessings of the church, and if you do not, you will not only be barred from holding a current temple recommend card but you may be prevented from holding any positions in the church until your tithing is current. But you will not be kicked out.

    But you will be socially outcast until you do, because everyone will know. You're expected to tithe regardless of any outside factors short of not having any income. On unemployment? Tithe. Large medical bills? It's best if you tithe.

    DoctorArch on
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  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    DoctorArch wrote: »
    Ganluan wrote: »
    OK seriously, does someone have something proving this "excommunicate without tithe" thing? Everyone keeps saying it but no one will provide some kind of citation that this is current doctrine for that church.

    I don't think anyone has said it since Than, but it's not true. You will not be excommunicated for not tithing. Tithing is strongly encouraged, and believed to be a requirement for all of the blessings of the church, and if you do not, you will not only be barred from holding a current temple recommend card but you may be prevented from holding any positions in the church until your tithing is current. But you will not be kicked out.

    It may as well be excommunication.

    Corehealer on
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  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    No, no one gets ex-communicated.

    They do pressure you, ostracise you, and 'tut' about you when something bad happens though.

    "Your house burnt down? Must be because you're not paying your tithing."

    Some of them can be horrid people.

    Sipex on
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I love a church with a VIP section and tiered memberships.

    I hear the Methodists have a kick-ass gym you can get into when you earn enough points for the Silver Club.

    Atomika on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The fact that it's even an issue is what boggles us almost to the point of anger. This is what I mean by applying intellectualism. I've debated Cain with a Mormon apologist, and the mental gymnastics involved on their part in supporting their world view without admitting to being a horrible human being is astounding.
    Wait. How do they justify it?
    An early statement by Young about a priesthood ban in the LDS Church was made on February 13, 1849. The statement — which refers to the Curse of Cain as the reason for the policy — was given in response to the question, "What chance is there for the redemption of the Negro?" Young responded, "The Lord had cursed Cain's seed with blackness and prohibited them the Priesthood."[4]

    In 1852, while addressing the Utah Territorial Legislature, Young stated, "Any man having one drop of the seed of [Cain] ... in him cannot hold the Priesthood and if no other Prophet ever spoke it before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ I know it is true and others know it."[4] This pronouncement was made by Young as a prophet.
    The early teachings seem fairly clear to me.

    Couscous on
  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Corehealer wrote: »
    DoctorArch wrote: »
    Ganluan wrote: »
    OK seriously, does someone have something proving this "excommunicate without tithe" thing? Everyone keeps saying it but no one will provide some kind of citation that this is current doctrine for that church.

    I don't think anyone has said it since Than, but it's not true. You will not be excommunicated for not tithing. Tithing is strongly encouraged, and believed to be a requirement for all of the blessings of the church, and if you do not, you will not only be barred from holding a current temple recommend card but you may be prevented from holding any positions in the church until your tithing is current. But you will not be kicked out.

    It may as well be excommunication.

    Pretty much, yeah.

    You want to know what will get you truly excommunicated? Questioning church doctrine in a public forum, i.e. published research, books, writings, etc. Doesn't matter if it's intentionally inflammatory or merely academic analysis. If it didn't come from an official church channel, stamped by the church heads, you could find yourself in trouble. They are really serious on the "do not question the church."

    DoctorArch on
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  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    The fact that it's even an issue is what boggles us almost to the point of anger. This is what I mean by applying intellectualism. I've debated Cain with a Mormon apologist, and the mental gymnastics involved on their part in supporting their world view without admitting to being a horrible human being is astounding.
    Wait. How do they justify it?
    An early statement by Young about a priesthood ban in the LDS Church was made on February 13, 1849. The statement — which refers to the Curse of Cain as the reason for the policy — was given in response to the question, "What chance is there for the redemption of the Negro?" Young responded, "The Lord had cursed Cain's seed with blackness and prohibited them the Priesthood."[4]

    In 1852, while addressing the Utah Territorial Legislature, Young stated, "Any man having one drop of the seed of [Cain] ... in him cannot hold the Priesthood and if no other Prophet ever spoke it before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ I know it is true and others know it."[4] This pronouncement was made by Young as a prophet.
    The early teachings seem fairly clear to me.

    You didn't even touch on Brigham Young's "Should a Black man mix his seed with a white woman, the punishment is death on the spot, so sayeth the Lord" decree.

    When a Mormon actively defends the curse of Cain, it's usually couched as the church/God trying to protect those who are more susceptible to the temptations of the devil. It's as disgusting as it sounds.

    DoctorArch on
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  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2010
    DoctorArch wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »

    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?
    His reasons for believing will still be stupid. Believing the Earth is round because a sphere is the most perfect thing and god would make the Earth perfect is still believing the Earth is round for a stupid reason.

    I never said anything about what he was advocating as the right but this tells me a lot about you.

    I think I'm done debating with you, you're not going to listen, you just seem to think every opinion but your own is stupid.

    Well, here's my question. You seem to be saying, through your examples, that these are people who can't be reasoned with. Yet you don't want us to write them off or make any other assumptions about them or their values.

    I mean, if they can't be reasoned with and therefore potentially "converted" so to speak to a less civil-rights-damning position outside of their religion, there's not much to be done, is there?

    I simply ask for you not to judge them for the whole of their religion but instead as they people they are. If they advocate keeping gays down then go ahead, judge them for that. If they don't but their religion does, then maybe give them some leeway here.

    I know you mean well, but these people just don't "belong" to a religion. They belong to a monolithic, incredibly top-down, uber-controlling religion that encourages to the point of requirement money and time spent supporting the church's causes. Unless your Aunt is a coffee-swilling, non-tithing Jack Mormon, she is culpable for her church's actions by being a member due to the amount of control she allows the church to have upon her. She is choosing to submit herself to its control. That is where we claim the moral high ground, because we simply choose not to submit ourselves to a gay-bashing monolithic entity.

    Well, that's one of the reasons I'm not a Muslim, I don't condone stoning people to death. I'm not a Catholic because I think birth control is a swell idea.

    However, I think you place to much faith in a persons ability to chose to throw away a concept their life has been built around. If you grow up thinking that alcohol is a sin, women are second tier creatures, and the proper way to deal with homosexuality is to kill them. While we are at it, if you don't follow these rules and the rules of the man in the funny hat who's God's messenger you burn in fire for eternity, and if you do follow them you get a great present!

    It seems mind bogglingly stupid if you aren't brought up that way, but if you are that can be very hard to get around. They aren't "choosing" to submit to that crap. They were forced into it by their parents and the local culture early in their lives and now can't really escape from it.

    I can't really blame them for their idiocy any more than I can blame some from NK for thinking that dear leader really is some sort of deity. I can however condemn the religion, or other organization, that created this situation and set all of them up.

    nstf on
  • SipexSipex Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    DoctorArch wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    Sipex wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »

    What if, in 50 years it turns out this guy is right?
    His reasons for believing will still be stupid. Believing the Earth is round because a sphere is the most perfect thing and god would make the Earth perfect is still believing the Earth is round for a stupid reason.

    I never said anything about what he was advocating as the right but this tells me a lot about you.

    I think I'm done debating with you, you're not going to listen, you just seem to think every opinion but your own is stupid.

    Well, here's my question. You seem to be saying, through your examples, that these are people who can't be reasoned with. Yet you don't want us to write them off or make any other assumptions about them or their values.

    I mean, if they can't be reasoned with and therefore potentially "converted" so to speak to a less civil-rights-damning position outside of their religion, there's not much to be done, is there?

    I simply ask for you not to judge them for the whole of their religion but instead as they people they are. If they advocate keeping gays down then go ahead, judge them for that. If they don't but their religion does, then maybe give them some leeway here.

    I know you mean well, but these people just don't "belong" to a religion. They belong to a monolithic, incredibly top-down, uber-controlling religion that encourages to the point of requirement money and time spent supporting the church's causes. Unless your Aunt is a coffee-swilling, non-tithing Jack Mormon, she is culpable for her church's actions by being a member due to the amount of control she allows the church to have upon her. She is choosing to submit herself to its control. That is where we claim the moral high ground, because we simply choose not to submit ourselves to a gay-bashing monolithic entity.

    Well, that's one of the reasons I'm not a Muslim, I don't condone stoning people to death. I'm not a Catholic because I think birth control is a swell idea.

    However, I think you place to much faith in a persons ability to chose to throw away a concept their life has been built around. If you grow up thinking that alcohol is a sin, women are second tier creatures, and the proper way to deal with homosexuality is to kill them. While we are at it, if you don't follow these rules and the rules of the man in the funny hat who's God's messenger you burn in fire for eternity, and if you do follow them you get a great present!

    It seems mind bogglingly stupid if you aren't brought up that way, but if you are that can be very hard to get around. They aren't "choosing" to submit to that crap. They were forced into it by their parents and the local culture early in their lives and now can't really escape from it.

    I can't really blame them for their idiocy any more than I can blame some from NK for thinking that dear leader really is some sort of deity. I can however condemn the religion, or other organization, that created this situation and set all of them up.

    This is why I'm keeping my kids out of religion until they're old enough to choose for themselves.

    Sipex on
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    No, no one gets ex-communicated.

    They do pressure you, ostracise you, and 'tut' about you when something bad happens though.

    "Your house burnt down? Must be because you're not paying your tithing."

    Some of them can be horrid people.

    Watch the PBS Frontline documentary on Mormons, they excommunicate people. They do a great many things which run from grey area to downright wrong.

    Corehealer on
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