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[World of Darkness] Paradox buys White Wolf - Maybe not dead

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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I never felt like vamps were innately overpowered.

    They weren't overpowered, really. That's not what I was suggesting. The power scales across the board were out of control, and it showed even in Vampires who were relatively "reasonable" compared to everything else.

    Fiaryn on
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    Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I don't see how this game can work...

    For example how does having huge influence Toreador can prevent a heavy combat spec Brujah from being ganked. Sadly, every MMO have its share of grieivers that just camp lowbies all day.

    Maybe the game is based on gaining influence instead, and ganking doesn't give much influence? That would mean that combat spec is probably useless unless it's vs NPC to accomplish task which gains influence (quest)

    Probably influence means that you get extra bodyguards and protection within sight of friendly NPC??

    Story Arc = Gehanna.

    Thought I'd go back and address this.

    There are a few ways that they could handle this. One that immediately springs to mind is using an MMO version of the LARP "Fair Escape" rule. There are starting level disciplines that could give you Fair Escape (Celerity, Obfuscate and Presence). Certain clans, like the Nosferatu, got it for being in appropriate areas (like if the Nos could get to the sewers). Arguably, if you wanted to expand it for an MMO, you could have Auspex "danger sense" in there too.

    You could also do an MMO implementation of the V:TES stealth/intercept rules. In that system, every system action has a certain stealth level (which can be augmented by using certain disciplines) and in order to stop the vampire from doing whatever, the opponent had to generate an intercept value that was higher than the target's stealth value.

    Taking that a step further, you could give people an innate stealth bonus if they're in certain areas (like the Rack) because they're blending in with the human crowds. You could also have an influence "crafting" system that gave you expendable abilities - maybe bonuses to stealth/intercept, access to ghoul "pets", etc. Influence and Resources were also where equipment came from - the Brujah Beatdown Brigade can't just load up on assault rifles without people having access to the appropriate influence.

    It really boils down to how they want to design the game, just like LARPs and tabletop games boil down to how they are run. If they design a game where things like influence and status don't play a significant role, then the game will be dominated by Assamites, Brujah, Gangrel and other vampires that are good at combat. Too much emphasis on influence and you won't see any. What I hope is that they find a way to strike a balance, where you can't be sure what tricks your opponent is going to pull out of his or her sleeve. Simply having that lack of certainty, where you can't be sure that a fight will be dictated solely by mechanics and who has the most Potence, would go a long way to establishing the right atmosphere, and allow for people to avoid PvP while at the same time making combat deadly.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    One thing I really hope they don't carry over from the Storyteller system is the relative worthlessness of guns. If guns were as harmless in life as they were in WOD we'd be arming our soldiers with nunchucks and fake claws and teaching them to bite their enemies.

    Regina Fong on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    One thing I really hope they don't carry over from the Storyteller system is the relative worthlessness of guns. If guns were as harmless in life as they were in WOD we'd be arming our soldiers with nunchucks and fake claws and teaching them to bite their enemies.

    The guns are worthless deal is mostly a Vampire thing. What with having no actual internal functions to be disrupted by a bullet ripping through them, bullets only do Bashing damage.

    Fiaryn on
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    One thing I really hope they don't carry over from the Storyteller system is the relative worthlessness of guns. If guns were as harmless in life as they were in WOD we'd be arming our soldiers with nunchucks and fake claws and teaching them to bite their enemies.

    The guns are worthless deal is mostly a Vampire thing. What with having no actual internal functions to be disrupted by a bullet ripping through them, bullets only do Bashing damage.

    yeah, pretty sure guns did aggro on mortals, mages, garou and fae.

    they were fucking awesome unless you were shooting a kindred; doubly so one with fortitude.

    syndalis on
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    Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    One thing I really hope they don't carry over from the Storyteller system is the relative worthlessness of guns. If guns were as harmless in life as they were in WOD we'd be arming our soldiers with nunchucks and fake claws and teaching them to bite their enemies.

    This makes me think of the time I had a Vampire character unload a full clip from an AK-47 into some one, do no damage, and then one shot the guy on my next action by butt-stroking him with the rifle.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    syndalis wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    One thing I really hope they don't carry over from the Storyteller system is the relative worthlessness of guns. If guns were as harmless in life as they were in WOD we'd be arming our soldiers with nunchucks and fake claws and teaching them to bite their enemies.

    The guns are worthless deal is mostly a Vampire thing. What with having no actual internal functions to be disrupted by a bullet ripping through them, bullets only do Bashing damage.

    yeah, pretty sure guns did aggro on mortals, mages, garou and fae.

    they were fucking awesome unless you were shooting a kindred; doubly so one with fortitude.

    This right here goes next to the entry for Futility in the dictionary.

    Fiaryn on
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited September 2010
    the only thing I really got cheezed about at the larps I used to play at was the small group of people who ALWAYS gamed the system so that everyone in their coterie got fortitude, potence and celerity, turned sabbat, and became the bad guys for the game. It was annoying the first time, and downright destructive the second and third time.

    The third time they started down that path (started the game as in character friends, caitiffs with the right blend of disciplines) one of the players who was an assamite received an order from the very top of the organization (storytellers, lol) to assassinate the one with potence and celerity, first night.

    In a larp with over 100 players, you sometimes have to cull the herd.

    syndalis on
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    Brian888Brian888 Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    NWoD was pretty much designed with the idea of crossovers. You could easily use the same rules for the Umbra with Mage necromancers as you could with Werewolf spiritwalkers(or whatever).

    Plus the power levels were more compatible.

    This. Power levels got toned down by a vast margin in NWoD. No more ridiculous DBZ Vampires with instant-goth-transmission.


    Eh, sort of. nMages are still hellaciously abusable for power-gamers.


    So, am I correct in reading that the WoD MMO will (at least initially) only allow for vampire PCs?

    Brian888 on
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    cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The broken stuff I've seen Mages do in NW games.


    We once had a problem with a portal to the Abyss appearing in the middle of town, so we used Space magic to send it into the Hedge.


    The ST said something to the effect of "are you really sure you want to do this?"

    cj iwakura on
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    belligerentbelligerent Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I'm probably the target for this game because I love the fragmented story of OWoD. My favorite "clan" was salubri, because I wanted to play the healer type, and the story lines interested me. I'm excited for this: I played bloodlines and that other vampire game (I can't remember what it's name was for the life of me). I still have the original discs for bloodline.

    NWoD never interested me as much. I guess I like the biblical overtones of OWoD, the stories of the clans and their histories. I loved the fiction, too.

    I'm actually excited about the drivethrurpg thing, because I'd love to get some printings of those OoP books. Even if the game ends up being terrible, I'll probably play it. I've played every mainstream MMO that lasted more than 6 months. Hell, I played WoW for something like 5 years before giving it up.

    This could be fun.

    belligerent on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Brian888 wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    NWoD was pretty much designed with the idea of crossovers. You could easily use the same rules for the Umbra with Mage necromancers as you could with Werewolf spiritwalkers(or whatever).

    Plus the power levels were more compatible.

    This. Power levels got toned down by a vast margin in NWoD. No more ridiculous DBZ Vampires with instant-goth-transmission.


    Eh, sort of. nMages are still hellaciously abusable for power-gamers.


    So, am I correct in reading that the WoD MMO will (at least initially) only allow for vampire PCs?

    Yup

    And maybe Hunters/Ghouls. But that's about it.

    Also: NWoD has plenty of biblical mythos to it. Just not in a "YEP THIS IS PRETTY MUCH DEFINITELY WHAT HAPPENED" kind of way.

    Fiaryn on
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    KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I'm probably the target for this game because I love the fragmented story of OWoD. My favorite "clan" was salubri, because I wanted to play the healer type, and the story lines interested me. I'm excited for this: I played bloodlines and that other vampire game (I can't remember what it's name was for the life of me). I still have the original discs for bloodline.

    NWoD never interested me as much. I guess I like the biblical overtones of OWoD, the stories of the clans and their histories. I loved the fiction, too.

    I'm actually excited about the drivethrurpg thing, because I'd love to get some printings of those OoP books. Even if the game ends up being terrible, I'll probably play it. I've played every mainstream MMO that lasted more than 6 months. Hell, I played WoW for something like 5 years before giving it up.

    This could be fun.

    In my opinion, they should just take the concept of bloodlines and just add multiplayer, better graphics, a new story, bigger world, and not as many bugs. I'd play it everyday.

    KoopahTroopah on
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    NylonathetepNylonathetep Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I'm probably the target for this game because I love the fragmented story of OWoD. My favorite "clan" was salubri, because I wanted to play the healer type, and the story lines interested me. I'm excited for this: I played bloodlines and that other vampire game (I can't remember what it's name was for the life of me). I still have the original discs for bloodline.

    NWoD never interested me as much. I guess I like the biblical overtones of OWoD, the stories of the clans and their histories. I loved the fiction, too.

    I'm actually excited about the drivethrurpg thing, because I'd love to get some printings of those OoP books. Even if the game ends up being terrible, I'll probably play it. I've played every mainstream MMO that lasted more than 6 months. Hell, I played WoW for something like 5 years before giving it up.

    This could be fun.

    I don't see how you won't get the same effect by just rolling a Healer in WoW...

    Healing PUGs drains your soul either way...



    Also I doubt they'll have salubri in... there can only be 7 of them in the world anyways.

    You can't just make a multiplayer Bloodline... for one... that game is full of bugs... two the company that developed it bankrupted... also the storyline is very linear and I can't see multiplayer interaction fitting in anywhere in that game sadly... I do line bloodlines thou....bought the game and play Malk and totally enjoy the humorous gameplay.

    Nylonathetep on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The only Salubri that would make any sense to be playable are Salubri Antitribu. And they're very very angry people. And part of the Sabbat.

    Fiaryn on
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    ArchonexArchonex No hard feelings, right? Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Hilariously enough, someone modded in multiplayer capability for Bloodlines a few years back.


    Not sure if they ever got it stable enough, but from what I hear when it was working right, it was fairly awesome.

    Archonex on
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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Also I doubt they'll have salubri in... there can only be 7 of them in the world anyways.

    That got retconned out almost as soon as it was published, and the Dark Ages line eventually reconciled it by saying that it was just one coterie of Salubri who did that whole "embrace only one childe, then get them to commit diablerie on you" thing, not the whole clan.

    gtrmp on
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    Mc zanyMc zany Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Vampires in WoD were all powerful as far as mortals were concerned by compared to other supernaturals they were fairy small fry. Mages were limited by the imagination and could easily be abused while Werewolves were combat monsters from the get go.

    The problem with the RPG was not the crossover factor but instead it was the fact that they introduced too many overpowered/stupid elements (the True Brujah, Kiasyd, mummies etc) and then White Wolf expected everyone to obey the little disclaimer at the end which would say something like "yeah this is awesome but there should never be a player character".

    Mc zany on
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited September 2010
    oWoD used to put versions of garou, fae, etc in the back of the vampire storyteller guide that were balanced for the setting, and made sense from the perspective of the kindred.

    Like, if you ever run a star wars empire game, you don't want to know that the rebels are the good guys. You don't care. They are the enemies of democracy and need to be crushed.

    The fact that garou go into the umbra because of their connection to the nature gods is irrelevant, as are most of their powers... they should be opposition, not PCs.

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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    gtrmp wrote: »
    Also I doubt they'll have salubri in... there can only be 7 of them in the world anyways.

    That got retconned out almost as soon as it was published, and the Dark Ages line eventually reconciled it by saying that it was just one coterie of Salubri who did that whole "embrace only one childe, then get them to commit diablerie on you" thing, not the whole clan.

    Wouldn't matter, they were still hunted to nigh extinction and have a shit reputation to this day due to a comprehensive smear campaign extending over several centuries by the Tremere.

    The whole third eye thing doesn't exactly help.
    Mc zany wrote: »
    Vampires in WoD were all powerful as far as mortals were concerned by compared to other supernaturals they were fairy small fry. Mages were limited by the imagination and could easily be abused while Werewolves were combat monsters from the get go.

    The problem with the RPG was not the crossover factor but instead it was the fact that they introduced too many overpowered/stupid elements (the True Brujah, Kiasyd, mummies etc) and then White Wolf expected everyone to obey the little disclaimer at the end which would say something like "yeah this is awesome but there should never be a player character".

    It always begged the question "THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU STATTING IT OUT AS THOUGH IT WERE FOR PCs?!"

    If it's just for Storyteller useage it doesn't need to be put in character creation terms!

    Fiaryn on
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    NylonathetepNylonathetep Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    gtrmp wrote: »
    Also I doubt they'll have salubri in... there can only be 7 of them in the world anyways.

    That got retconned out almost as soon as it was published, and the Dark Ages line eventually reconciled it by saying that it was just one coterie of Salubri who did that whole "embrace only one childe, then get them to commit diablerie on you" thing, not the whole clan.

    That's pretty awesome if they did that. I personally like the healer Salubri ... Whitewolf basically just realized that the fans would like more Salubris in the world and they heard the sound of money. I'm sure a lot of ppl would roll Salubris initally, and then promotly got rolled over by Tremere and Antitribu Burjah anyways and diableried. What a cruel cruel world.

    Nylonathetep on
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    belligerentbelligerent Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    lol, I know Salubri won't be in the game. I'm their biggest fan and I'd think it'd be stupid for them to show up as PCs. My point in bringing them up was just as a reference for what I loved about oWoD.

    edit: and another thing. I loved V:tM because it had a metaplot. None of my RL friends were into tabletop playing so basically I bought the books to read about the metaplot.

    I'm sure it sucked from a gaming point of view. All of the "new" edition of tabletop games remove the metaplot so that the DM/ST can have final say over what's going on in their world.

    belligerent on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Speaking of the Tremere, they're pretty responsible for another dumb thing. Because we can't have everyone getting jealous, now half the other clans have to have their own Thaumaturgy! Koldunnic Tzimisce! [strike]Muslim Magic[/strike] ASSAMITE VIZIER SORCERY! And so on.

    OWoD really was a quagmire. Not at all a friendly place for newcomers.

    Fiaryn on
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    belligerentbelligerent Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Really, no 10+ year old multisupplement game system is friendly to newcommers. That's why you start out slow and add things as you progress.

    In MMO terms, it's why you didn't start out fighting the Lich King in 2004.

    belligerent on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Really, no 10+ year old multisupplement game system is friendly to newcommers. That's why you start out slow and add things as you progress.

    In MMO terms, it's why you didn't start out fighting the Lich King in 2004.

    That's not quite the issue, or a proper analogy. The thing about OWoD that deterrs newcomers is not how much you can do, it's how much there is to know and their initial inability to parse Relevant from Irrelevant (or Retarded from Not Retarded). It's intimidating, and it makes it harder to convince them that sifting through that shit is worth the effort.

    Fiaryn on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Really, no 10+ year old multisupplement game system is friendly to newcommers. That's why you start out slow and add things as you progress.

    In MMO terms, it's why you didn't start out fighting the Lich King in 2004.

    That's not quite the issue, or a proper analogy. The thing about OWoD that deterrs newcomers is not how much you can do, it's how much there is to know and their initial inability to parse Relevant from Irrelevant (or Retarded from Not Retarded). It's intimidating, and it makes it harder to convince them that sifting through that shit is worth the effort.

    But the solution is not to eliminate or invalidate the existing knowledge simply to provide a blank slate suitable to newcomers, because this alienates the current fans.

    Regina Fong on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Really, no 10+ year old multisupplement game system is friendly to newcommers. That's why you start out slow and add things as you progress.

    In MMO terms, it's why you didn't start out fighting the Lich King in 2004.

    That's not quite the issue, or a proper analogy. The thing about OWoD that deterrs newcomers is not how much you can do, it's how much there is to know and their initial inability to parse Relevant from Irrelevant (or Retarded from Not Retarded). It's intimidating, and it makes it harder to convince them that sifting through that shit is worth the effort.

    But the solution is not to eliminate or invalidate the existing knowledge simply to provide a blank slate suitable to newcomers, because this alienates the current fans.

    Sometimes? Yes it is. You can't "fix" OWoD. Making a new, different, less defined metaplot is the solution in this case. Broadening your market is survival, recursively focusing only on your existing fans is why American comics are dying. It's a very slow, slow death spiral but one all the same.

    We are aware that Requiem is hardly without expanded lore and a metaplot nowadays yes? It's been expanded quite a fair bit since it's initial vanilla core book.

    Fiaryn on
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    cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Speaking of the Tremere, they're pretty responsible for another dumb thing. Because we can't have everyone getting jealous, now half the other clans have to have their own Thaumaturgy! Koldunnic Tzimisce! [strike]Muslim Magic[/strike] ASSAMITE VIZIER SORCERY! And so on.

    OWoD really was a quagmire. Not at all a friendly place for newcomers.

    At least they took care of their Antitribu.

    They had Assamite sorcerers?

    cj iwakura on
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    Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Speaking of the Tremere, they're pretty responsible for another dumb thing. Because we can't have everyone getting jealous, now half the other clans have to have their own Thaumaturgy! Koldunnic Tzimisce! [strike]Muslim Magic[/strike] ASSAMITE VIZIER SORCERY! And so on.

    OWoD really was a quagmire. Not at all a friendly place for newcomers.

    At least they took care of their Antitribu.

    They had Assamite sorcerers?

    Yeah. The Tzimisce, Assamites and Setites all had their thaumaturgists.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


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    ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Just wanted to point out, Werewolves were not really that overpowered. They were designed to fight the Wyrm, which if you read up on those enemies, even a bane is pretty powerful on its own. The point was for them to fight such enemies as a pack, not to really interact with vampire PCs.

    On top of that, if you are playing in a game that has both types of PCs, you must really suck at playing a vampire if you are trying to go toe-to-toe with a werewolf. In the IRC game I played in, we had two Brujah neonates decide to ambush my pack's theurge, who was not combat built in any way. They got their asses handed to them, pretty quickly in fact. This was not really because the game systems were unbalanced, it was because they were doing something that was innately stupid. It is pretty common knowledge among the kindred that fighting a werewolf, even with numbers, is going to result in death. The way you fight them is by outliving them, using humanity against them, or just getting others to deal with them.

    Even in the Sabbat player's guide they point out, in character, that a pack of Sabbat may be able to take one werewolf down, if they are lucky, but to otherwise avoid the Lupines because they are furry death machines. It always made myself, and other werewolf players, laugh when Mages/Kindred attempted to manipulate Garou, expecting it to work flawlessly, and then got pissed because the Garou turned around and killed their PC when they realized what was happening.

    My favorite example, my aforementioned Get was beta of the sept in central park in one game we played. Dreamspeaker decides to approach the sept, and demand access to the Caern, and then not leave when my character told him to get the hell out and never come back to the park. This is all after knowing he was the sept beta and had the authority to make that decision. Not-so-long story short, he ended up decorating a hill side. Didn't help it was a full moon that day.

    Comahawk on
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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Speaking of the Tremere, they're pretty responsible for another dumb thing. Because we can't have everyone getting jealous, now half the other clans have to have their own Thaumaturgy! Koldunnic Tzimisce! [strike]Muslim Magic[/strike] ASSAMITE VIZIER SORCERY! And so on.

    The different kinds of blood magic were an awkward kludge in the Revised Edition and Dark Ages books to make sense of a contradiction in some of the early Vampire books. The original clanbooks had introduced bloodlines and factions of non-Tremere clans that had been using Thaumaturgy since before the Tremere had ever existed. Instead of saying something like "these guys used a primitive version of Thaumaturgy, but the Tremere refined it even further", the later sourcebooks made those other versions of Thaumaturgy into separate Disciplines that functioned in the exact same way as Thaumaturgy.

    This is more or less the same reason that Necromancy became path- and ritual-based in Revised Edition. The Giovanni had been written up as using Thaumaturgy rituals in conjunction with Necromancy in their original clanbook, so Vampire Revised made their Discipline into a path-based blood magic Discipline. Dark Ages: Vampire did the same thing with Mortis, the Cappadocians' proto-necromantic Discipline.

    gtrmp on
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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    We are aware that Requiem is hardly without expanded lore and a metaplot nowadays yes? It's been expanded quite a fair bit since it's initial vanilla core book.

    Requiem doesn't have a metaplot. Backstory and established recurring characters don't make a metaplot; a metaplot would be a plotline running through different consecutive books that changed the setting along the way. The setting and lore of the nWoD in general and Requiem in particular have expanded a lot, especially with the clanbooks, but that doesn't give Requiem a metaplot.

    gtrmp on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Comahawk wrote: »
    On top of that, if you are playing in a game that has both types of PCs, you must really suck at playing a vampire if

    Unless it's a LARP and you have no choice but to interact face to face with the werewolves because it's being forced down your throat by the storytellers.

    As soon as you said "IRC" it was like "Well, duh, there you go".

    IRC games are not comparable to tabletop games and are totally, utterly incomparable to LARPs.

    Regina Fong on
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    cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    For what it's worth, I've run a V:TM game that had nothing to do with metaplot, and it went fine, more or less, so you can do without it like you can in NWoD.

    cj iwakura on
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    ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Comahawk wrote: »
    On top of that, if you are playing in a game that has both types of PCs, you must really suck at playing a vampire if

    Unless it's a LARP and you have no choice but to interact face to face with the werewolves because it's being forced down your throat by the storytellers.

    As soon as you said "IRC" it was like "Well, duh, there you go".

    IRC games are not comparable to tabletop games and are totally, utterly incomparable to LARPs.

    How is it not comparable?

    I understand it lacks the face-to-face aspect of both those games, but the rules are the same for a tabletop and an IRC game. Expect in a LARP of course, but even then, you choose how your character interacts with those elements the storyteller is introducing and if they are really that bad of a ST, in that they force you to enter combat with something that will obviously slaughter you, why are you putting up with them and staying with that game?

    The game balance is not necessarily broken because your ST is an asshole.

    Comahawk on
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    Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Comahawk wrote: »
    Comahawk wrote: »
    On top of that, if you are playing in a game that has both types of PCs, you must really suck at playing a vampire if

    Unless it's a LARP and you have no choice but to interact face to face with the werewolves because it's being forced down your throat by the storytellers.

    As soon as you said "IRC" it was like "Well, duh, there you go".

    IRC games are not comparable to tabletop games and are totally, utterly incomparable to LARPs.

    How is it not comparable?

    I understand it lacks the face-to-face aspect of both those games, but the rules are the same for a tabletop and an IRC game. Expect in a LARP of course, but even then, you choose how your character interacts with those elements the storyteller is introducing and if they are really that bad of a ST, in that they force you to enter combat with something that will obviously slaughter you, why are you putting up with them and staying with that game?

    The game balance is not necessarily broken because your ST is an asshole.

    It's not so much the rules as the setting. A lot of LARPs have the basic premise that, in order to play the game, all the PCs are essentially gathered in one big room (which might be a nightclub or Elysium or something), or maybe a few public rooms. It's not a game type that lends itself well to interaction between players that isn't face to face. It's not so much forcing you to enter combat as forcing you to be in close proximity to the furry killing machine.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


    Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
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    ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Comahawk wrote: »
    Comahawk wrote: »
    On top of that, if you are playing in a game that has both types of PCs, you must really suck at playing a vampire if

    Unless it's a LARP and you have no choice but to interact face to face with the werewolves because it's being forced down your throat by the storytellers.

    As soon as you said "IRC" it was like "Well, duh, there you go".

    IRC games are not comparable to tabletop games and are totally, utterly incomparable to LARPs.

    How is it not comparable?

    I understand it lacks the face-to-face aspect of both those games, but the rules are the same for a tabletop and an IRC game. Expect in a LARP of course, but even then, you choose how your character interacts with those elements the storyteller is introducing and if they are really that bad of a ST, in that they force you to enter combat with something that will obviously slaughter you, why are you putting up with them and staying with that game?

    The game balance is not necessarily broken because your ST is an asshole.

    It's not so much the rules as the setting. A lot of LARPs have the basic premise that, in order to play the game, all the PCs are essentially gathered in one big room (which might be a nightclub or Elysium or something), or maybe a few public rooms. It's not a game type that lends itself well to interaction between players that isn't face to face. It's not so much forcing you to enter combat as forcing you to be in close proximity to the furry killing machine.

    That makes sense, but then again, that seems more so a function of a poor storyteller than a broken system, or overpowered werewolves.

    Comahawk on
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    belligerentbelligerent Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Comahawk wrote: »
    Just wanted to point out, Werewolves were not really that overpowered...

    [long story about how overpowered they are in context to other ST systems]

    People who understand how the oWoD worked (i.e. read more than a single systems rulebook) understand that werewolves were beter physical combatants. However, if you only read one ST system (like, say vampire), your whole story could be seen as a statement of how overpowered they were.

    This is why some people, myself included, don't want each system implemented whole cloth into the new MMO. I'm fine with PC werewolves alongside PC vampires, but the systems themselves and the reasons for playing them just seem incompatible to me. Great your 800 lb beserker is "Da Manz" when it comes to physical confrontation. That always seemed to be besides the point in V:tM.

    The point is, if both are in the game, one side isn't going to be happy in the begining, I promise.

    edit: This also assumes some form of PVP. I have no problem with certain PCs being better at things than I am (just like I know the DPS is better than me because I'm a healer), however, if there is PVP, you cannot have unbalanced characters, without having a system in place that balances them in other ways.

    belligerent on
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    Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Comahawk wrote: »
    Comahawk wrote: »
    Comahawk wrote: »
    On top of that, if you are playing in a game that has both types of PCs, you must really suck at playing a vampire if

    Unless it's a LARP and you have no choice but to interact face to face with the werewolves because it's being forced down your throat by the storytellers.

    As soon as you said "IRC" it was like "Well, duh, there you go".

    IRC games are not comparable to tabletop games and are totally, utterly incomparable to LARPs.

    How is it not comparable?

    I understand it lacks the face-to-face aspect of both those games, but the rules are the same for a tabletop and an IRC game. Expect in a LARP of course, but even then, you choose how your character interacts with those elements the storyteller is introducing and if they are really that bad of a ST, in that they force you to enter combat with something that will obviously slaughter you, why are you putting up with them and staying with that game?

    The game balance is not necessarily broken because your ST is an asshole.

    It's not so much the rules as the setting. A lot of LARPs have the basic premise that, in order to play the game, all the PCs are essentially gathered in one big room (which might be a nightclub or Elysium or something), or maybe a few public rooms. It's not a game type that lends itself well to interaction between players that isn't face to face. It's not so much forcing you to enter combat as forcing you to be in close proximity to the furry killing machine.

    That makes sense, but then again, that seems more so a function of a poor storyteller than a broken system, or overpowered werewolves.

    It's really a problem of storytelling and allowing characters that don't make sense.

    Most of my time playing WoD was spent on MUSHes, which generally have a whole city. Thus my pack of Sabbat can go and hang out and RP with each other. We don't spend out Saturday nights hanging out with the Prince.

    Since part of the LARP is that it takes place in one big public space, the ST shouldn't be allowing characters that don't make sense in that context. Some Nosferatu computer hacker who never leaves the sewers shouldn't be there every week. Similarly, it doesn't make any sense to have werewolves, a bunch of Sabbat, or whatever, showing up and chilling with the Prince and Primogen every week.

    In that sense, the system isn't broken, since the intent of the authors is that werewolves are furry killing machines. It's working exactly as designed. The problem is that the ST can't say "no, that doesn't make sense" to people who want to play werewolves who spent their Saturday nights hanging out with the Vampires, and he isn't providing any tools for the Vampires to say "fuck that, I'm going to another club instead - one without werewolves". By framing the options in this way, the ST is breaking game balance.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


    Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
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    ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Comahawk wrote: »
    Just wanted to point out, Werewolves were not really that overpowered...

    [long story about how overpowered they are in context to other ST systems]

    People who understand how the oWoD worked (i.e. read more than a single systems rulebook) understand that werewolves were beter physical combatants. However, if you only read one ST system (like, say vampire), your whole story could be seen as a statement of how overpowered they were.

    Actually, from what I remember, the V:tM core rules stated pretty clearly that Lupines were not to be screwed around with.

    This is why some people, myself included, don't want each system implemented whole cloth into the new MMO. I'm fine with PC werewolves alongside PC vampires, but the systems themselves and the reasons for playing them just seem incompatible to me. Great your 800 lb beserker is "Da Manz" when it comes to physical confrontation. That always seemed to be besides the point in V:tM.

    That was kind of my point, if you are going to enter combat against a Garou as a Kindred, you are playing the genre incorrectly and doing something that will subsequently result in your final death.

    The point is, if both are in the game, one side isn't going to be happy in the begining, I promise.

    edit: This also assumes some form of PVP. I have no problem with certain PCs being better at things than I am (just like I know the DPS is better than me because I'm a healer), however, if there is PVP, you cannot have unbalanced characters, without having a system in place that balances them in other ways.

    I agree they shouldn't really be mixed together in an MMO without some sort of balance in there. I personally have no idea how to do that without compromising the themes of their game completely. That said, if they make a Vampire MMO, I really hope they make a Werewolf one. It would be interesting to offer some sort of interaction, if not complete interaction, but create ways for that interaction to favor either side's strengths.

    Comahawk on
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