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[World of Darkness] Paradox buys White Wolf - Maybe not dead

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Posts

  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    One thing I felt was noteworthy: Talking about perma-death and attracting "casual players" seems irreconcilable. These two things don't mix, one of them is going to suffer for the inclusion of the other.

    Unless it's pretty hard to die.

    If there is anything like ganking, the game will die fast and furiously.

    Regina Fong on
  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    One thing I felt was noteworthy: Talking about perma-death and attracting "casual players" seems irreconcilable. These two things don't mix, one of them is going to suffer for the inclusion of the other.

    I'm not sure I necessarily agree.

    On some World of Darkness MUSHes they used a consent based system called "Fate". This was a value that ranged from 1 to 5. At Fate 1, you couldn't have anything happen to your PC without your consent, but conversely you couldn't do anything to anyone else without theirs. At Fate 5 you had full on horrible deaths and the like. The issue with Fate is that you also couldn't do certain things without being at a certain level. Sabbat vampires were all Fate 5. You needed to be Fate 4 (killing and dying without your consent) to have a position like Prince or Sheriff, or to break any Traditions. I think the Tremere also required all their people to be at a certain level. If you wanted to just hang out as a Toreador socialite with no position in the court, you could be Fate 2 (the minimum for vamps, if I remember, only humans could be Fate 1), but you also couldn't do a whole hell of a lot. Death in that game was just like table top - permanent.

    In a way, it was like a social version of EVE's security status for different systems. If you wanted to go in for the big payoffs, fancy titles and thrill of fighting the "good fight" against the pawns of the Antediluvians, you had to run the risks. That said, if the game allows anything like ganking or "baby eating" ("Yay, I logged in! What's a 'City Gangrel' and why are there eight of them attacking me?!?"), that would suck.

    Of course, maybe this ties in with how the game handles its "crafting". I can't see the game having a system where vampires sit around building their own leather trench coats, katanas and Desert Eagles, but maybe they will have some sort of infuence system? Being able to attack some one might require a concerted effort to erode their influence or status or something before they can be attacked physically. Similarly, maybe the Sabbat have to conduct a certain number of rituals before they can get their War Party on.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


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  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    It really is important to note that EVE doesn't have "perma death". EVE you are a ship. An easily replaceable ship. A Gen 9 Prince or whatever with high Disciplines isn't the same thing as replacing a ship and maybe implants. That just comes down to $$$

    Fiaryn on
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  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    True, but in EVE the ease of replacing ships encourages risk taking. Camarilla vampires are congenitally anti-risk, and that's just the ancilla; elders are notorious for spending enormous amounts of time and resources insulating themselves from risk.

    Regina Fong on
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    One of my good buddies (who I had the pleasure of running two successful Changeling LARPs with) explained why the werewolf - vampire crossover games were stupid thusly:

    "Vampires would never be stupid enough to take the field against werewolves. As soon as a few neonates got ripped to pieces and the Kindred community realized what was happening, they would go to ground and disappear for 40 years and that particular group of werewolves would be dead by the time the Kindred started serious operations again."

    Regina Fong on
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    I am not so sure it is possible for the entire Kindred Network in a city to disappear off the face of the map for 40 years. Still gotta eat. Still gotta keep contacts up or your human contacts that do necessary day time stuff for you (and know nothing about Vampires) presume you died and act to settle your estate/replace you on board of directors/etc.

    Edit: Kindred are heavily wrapped up in the power structure of their cities, and there is no way they drop everything and hide every time a half dozen Wolves roll through. Yes, they have plans to deal with this, and yes those plans may consist of a lot of subterfuge and 1500 levels of cut-outs, but werewolves showing up is business as usual for the older Kindred.

    For the younger Kindred, werewolves showing up means at least a few Vamps get...

    Thrown to the wolves.

    145213__csi_l.jpg

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    True, most packs can be dealt with by feeding them a coterie of neonates and allowing the wolves to celebrate victory and move on. And no elder would bat an eye when considering that course of action.

    Regina Fong on
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    In short, Malkavians are pretty much the worst clan. They can be good but their player base tarnishes them. I'd rather have four Toreadors than one Malk.

    Statistically, the one Malk is most likely to be the more annoying!

    The best Malks are the ones you don't see coming.


    Same with Toreadors, really. The less they play to stereotype, the better.


    Not Tremere though, oh no. They want you to know.

    cj iwakura on
    wVEsyIc.png
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    While those details sound amazing, I still don't see any bonafide confirmation that this is Masquerade.

    cj iwakura on
    wVEsyIc.png
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    While those details sound amazing, I still don't see any bonafide confirmation that this is Masquerade.

    All or most of the information listed at the end of page eight was from a Q/A Panel with the devs, was it not? Including the section which involved "it's going to be Masquerade"?

    That's how I understood it!

    Fiaryn on
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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    http://planet-vampire.com/main/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=aa7184dd54a8e7a3a438a59baa0c086c&action=media;sa=album;in=2

    Nice, they had framed art of Hesha Ruhadze.

    (The Setite from the clan novel, awesome guy.)


    Yeah, I guess that kind of clinches it. :P

    cj iwakura on
    wVEsyIc.png
  • pardzhpardzh Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Aw shiz, Setite was definitely one of my favorite clan novels.

    They're all amazing, though. Now I've got an itch to read through the 4-volume chronologically edited version.

    pardzh on
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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The collections looked pretty bad to me. They were meant to be divided up into stories by clan, not arranged into order like that. I recently read through them again. I wound up having totally different opinions of the books the second time through.


    Giovanni was one of my favorites this time.

    cj iwakura on
    wVEsyIc.png
  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Yeah, the compilations just don't interlace well at all. The start of the first volume is easily the worst offender, since the first hundred pages or so are flashbacks and fragments of short stories that are almost incomprehensible out of context.

    Giovanni benefits from being the only one that comes close to being a complete stand-alone novel.

    gtrmp on
  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Depending on how Dominate is executed in game I might try Ventrue my first play through. I loved my Ventrue on Bloodlines but have never touched one during a "real" pen&paper based game.

    I've forgotten basically everything oWoD and so am a little overwhelemed with so many clans to choose from.

    *Secretly hopes the game does so well after a certain number of years they graduate it to nWoD vampire*

    Caveman Paws on
  • pardzhpardzh Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    While there were definitely rough spots as far as continuity and pacing goes, I love the feel of the collection.

    To be a turd, they are "epic" in feel.

    pardzh on
    gt: Bobby2Socks | steam: Billy Boot-Snatcher

    You talk clean and bomb hospitals, so I speak with the foulest mouth possible
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    People got a bit too hung up the mechanics of Dominate. I'll admit, in a LARP you're severely hamstrung by the generation thing, but in a PnP game you can use it for it's full intended purpose, which was never to bully other vampires (who will invariably seek the sort of revenge that doesn't involve meeting you eye to eye) but to completely abuse mortals.

    Dominate allows an unscrupulous vampire to manipulate, and eventually blackmail into submission, or completely enslave virtually any mortal. If the only thing you can think to do with it involves using it on other Kindred you just don't belong in clan Ventrue.

    Regina Fong on
  • ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I just realized I can potentially play a Lasombra....

    I am grinning now.

    Comahawk on
  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    For anyone wondering which clans are in Masquerade and which ones aren't, here's the wiki for the clans.

    There's also a bunch of information on that wiki as it's made by white wolf. I'd expect it to be a good base of information for CCP to use, besides the books themselves of course.

    I'd also like to contribute back to the perma-death scenario. I like the idea in that it forces people to follow the rules, CCP wants this to be a social game in the aspect that combat is there but not a focus. Which means that they don't want people going in to zones and just killing each other in broad streetlight. (A la Age of Conan) I think if this were to happen, the person who died can take comfort in knowing that the killer will probably be killed by hunters/cammies, depending on generation of course. ;)

    Referring back to MxO again, cause I love that game. If you were under level and stray to unrep'd area, a high level NPC agent would eventually show up and try to kill your ass, much like the movies. I'd respect CCP if they made it that if you kill another vampire a bounty is on your head for other players and even if they implemented a system like MxO or even GTA(not as quick) where NPCs might chase you down.

    KoopahTroopah on
  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    For anyone wondering which clans are in Masquerade and which ones aren't, here's the wiki for the clans.

    There's also a bunch of information on that wiki as it's made by white wolf. I'd expect it to be a good base of information for CCP to use, besides the books themselves of course.

    The wiki at white-wolf.com is actually the less useful White Wolf wiki. The White Wolf wiki at Wikia is usually more comprehensive, and unlike the official wiki, it doesn't deliberately mix fan material in with the canon.

    gtrmp on
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I'm really only interested if the Sabbat is in. Having only the Camarilla in the game is a recipe for wankery and excessively purple prose.

    Fiaryn on
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  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the original seven Camarilla clans are the only clans available at launch.

    gtrmp on
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    gtrmp wrote: »
    I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the original seven Camarilla clans are the only clans available at launch.

    Personally, I don't think there's any hope of the core 7 + Lasombra + Tzimisce + Assamite ever being in the game. Sisters of Cacophany and all that obscure silly shit doesn't have much value.

    Fiaryn on
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  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Honestly, including anything more than the core clans would be pushing it. They need to strike a balance between being faithful to VtM canon and exclusing as much of the embarrassing, thematically antithetical nonsense as they possibly can. As it is, only including all 13 clans as written would still give us two clans that are built around painfully awkward ethnic sterotypes, several Disciplines that are thematically appropriate, and at least two Disciplines that are outright broken.

    gtrmp on
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    gtrmp wrote: »
    Honestly, including anything more than the core clans would be pushing it. They need to strike a balance between being faithful to VtM canon and exclusing as much of the embarrassing, thematically antithetical nonsense as they possibly can. As it is, only including all 13 clans as written would still give us two clans that are built around painfully awkward ethnic sterotypes, several Disciplines that are thematically appropriate, and at least two Disciplines that are outright broken.

    I agree with you on the other points, but this doesn't seem overly relevant. With regards to Disciplines, they're all being translated to a different system anyway so what's broken under actual OWoD Pen and Paper rules is not necessarily going to be broken here. The only important consideration is whether a Discipline can be translated at all, and how much work would go into that. IE, Temporis.

    Which in addition to being retarded is pretty impossible to translate to MMORPG gameplay.

    Fiaryn on
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  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    gtrmp wrote: »
    Honestly, including anything more than the core clans would be pushing it. They need to strike a balance between being faithful to VtM canon and exclusing as much of the embarrassing, thematically antithetical nonsense as they possibly can. As it is, only including all 13 clans as written would still give us two clans that are built around painfully awkward ethnic sterotypes, several Disciplines that are thematically appropriate, and at least two Disciplines that are outright broken.

    All those points solidify in my mind the only reason for using the V:tM universe was due to overwhelming bitching by fans that if the mmo was set in V:tR they wouldn't touch the game with a 10 foot pole. Sadly, from a business perspective, they made the correct call (since what would be the point of making an awesome V:tR mmo if you couldn't attract the core audience to make it viable for more than a month?).

    I wonder if they won't try and streamline the V:tM system somewhat or otherwise include little things from nwod. Or maybe it will be a moot point since converting any WW game system to a mmo will require a number of tweaks and outright changes.

    Caveman Paws on
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited September 2010
    There is no way in hell this is going to run on the storyteller system, guys.

    There id no reason to worry about disciplines as they are represented via d10 pools... For all we know, we may not even get to pick our primary/secondary/tertiary stats, and they could be auto-assigned by clan.

    We have no idea what they are doing mechanically at the moment, but I assure you they won't be using the old rules. If turbine didn't do it with D&D online, I seriously doubt these guys will here. There are far too many judgement calls that need to be made by the storyteller to make it a viable computer-run engine.

    syndalis on
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  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I'm not sure if anyone else has seen this or not, but here are Justin Achilli's summary notes from the panel...
    * Not a lot of quests. Org versus org. Player-driven faction content and conflict.
    * Not a WOW clone. Repetitive quests are boring and unfulfilling.
    * Concerns over how mental or social influence powers are handled. How to do this well and meaningfully? Players uncomfortable with a loss of control over avatar.
    * Players want to control other characters, however.
    * Territory control. An adult-only play space. Roleplayers want a space where the integrity of the setting colors the conversation. Don't want to suffer through Chuck Norris jokes and other immersion-breaking chatter.
    * Content that reinforces themes that are the cornerstones of the WoD. "Shivers up the spine."
    * An exploration of who a new character is, so that he's not just dropped tabula rasa into the world. Random backgrounds, connections to the world, hooks into world participation.
    * Powers that cleave closely to the powers that exist in the game, but also expand into new directions for appropriate Disciplines. Making them work in tandem with the system, so that they make sense in the world.
    * Finite numbers of the supernatural critter types.
    * Permadeath. Server type preference?
    * Allow social powers to be socially versatile. A character can be successful socially; not all advancement is tied to combat or traditional "leveling."
    * Factional control of regions or assets. Benefits to controlling key areas or establishments.
    * Live team events built upon a foundation of existing world lore. Real-time events, historical Masquerade characters, GM NPCs who can be interacted with or pull players into stories.
    * Influences, boons, hallmarks of the social origins of vampires.
    * Accessible to casual players. Low-intensity tasks to just pick up and do so players don't have to sit there idly.
    * Playable Sabbat.
    * Creation, building visible things that can be added to game. Ex. Toreador art, Nosferatu caverns. Some kind of crafting system.
    * One big world with a dynamic power system that allows different factions to thrive.
    * Stay true to the adult content. Blood, gore, darkness, tits.
    * Present the themes of the World of Darkness as playable elements. Let the players participate in the things that make Vampire what it is.
    * Allow players to participate meaningfully as casual and part-time players.
    * Image and customization consultation -- players helping other players create their looks.
    * Playable neonate-ancilla-elder model with meaningful play, all with impact on the in-world vitae economy.
    * Status system -- how to represent and elder concept. Players that can participate as setting, a piece of the environment.
    * Unique and empowering via rarity.
    * Rarity of combat unless it's a character's focus.
    * Severity and fearsomeness of combat.
    * World that responds to the actions of the characters. Dynamic, changing, adapting to how players use the world.
    * A system to allow players to form groups of their own design as opposed to just sharing commonalities like clan and Disciplines.
    * GLBT friendly content.
    * Rewards for advancement tied to tiered mastery of ability or chance rolls.
    * Final Death.
    * Bloodline characters. Seeing the effects of actions the players have taken in character selection.
    * Use relationships with fan organizations to allow players to play their LARP characters and vice versa.
    * Crafting +1 but not materials farming.
    * Immersion as a priority. Reward the long-time player who's been into Vampire as opposed to the sillier players who are aggravating elements in other MMOs. Jumping goofball players break the mood.
    * Non-unique names as a matter of character identity.
    * Other WoD critters. The whole panoply of supernatural creature types.
    * Cherry pick the strong parts of Requiem.
    * Mortals, participate in the Embrace, etc. X2 X3
    * Embrace. X2
    * Diablerie.
    * Ability to flag self for PvP allowability.
    * Communication needs. Make communication happen in a way that's not as as intrusive as "global chat UI".
    * Politics outside clan and sect. City politics, for example. Domains and territories?
    * A sense of history imparted to elder characters. Flashback sequences, historical instances, etc.
    * Narrative that's not wholly reliant on players to facilitate the content.
    * Control the rate of character progression and provide content so that casual and time-constrained players can still participate meaningfully.
    * Personal spaces like havens. Ability to damage or conspire against havens. Or help cultivate them.
    * Torpor as a clone-type mechanic as a backup.
    * Casual player rewards and impetus.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


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  • BasilBasil Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Oh my. Oh me oh my.

    Basil on
    9KmX8eN.jpg
  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Basil wrote: »
    Oh my. Oh me oh my.

    Keep in mind that these are his designer notes on what people at the panel were talking about. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll make it into the game. To pick a random point, I can't see them selling a game where people start as mortals and might not end up as vampires. Having a prelude/noob zone where your character is mortal? That could be cool. Playing as a mortal because there are a finite number of vamps and you don't get to be one unless there's a slot open and you get Embraced? Can't see myself paying for that.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


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  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I'd wager cash that list is simply suggestions from the audience rather than confirmed "things we will do in this game."

    That being said: I hope they pay attention to that list because there are a number of ones that made me smile.

    Edit: Edith beat me to the punch by a country mile. *Shakes fist redneck style*

    Caveman Paws on
  • BasilBasil Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    That just got me thinking, you know. Thoughts. It hadn't really dawned on me that they're designing a game for a dedicated player base rather than throwing meat to the hounds and praying it lasts long enough for them to reach the gate.

    The implications unnerve me. I'm only a dabbling fan who read some books, played Bloodlines a bajillion times and still has the music on his mp3 player. Now I can sense a giant anvil looming over my head with CCP scratched on the side.

    Basil on
    9KmX8eN.jpg
  • VoroVoro Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Yeah, I'm not sure I can see Diablerie working in a MMO, certainly not with players able to start as mortals. If that happened, you might as well decide that the first person in your group to get to a generation significantly lower than the starting generation would embrace everyone else. The rest just delete their characters, start mortals, and they're set.

    I could only see this being implemented in a very limited fashion to counteract perma-death, but you wouldn't really be able to explain limited embracing for Sabbat characters.

    Voro on
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  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    I feel the need to point out that the number of IRC chat rooms where the topic is serious in-character RP for Vampire are beyond count.

    If you consider this a technological upgrade of what people are already doing, it may just work.
    People will probably pay for it, too.

    Edit: And people who want to get their fight on can leave the confines of the initial RP areas and enter null-sec where anything goes.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
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  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    My fears of this being a Second Life-esque cyber sex bananza only deepen.

    Assume the (MMORPG pessimism) position!

    Fiaryn on
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  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    I am inclined to agree with you.

    I also have faith that the crew from SA will take great delight in being as disruptive as possible as well for as long as they can.

    Overall I consider this whole thing skip-able.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • nonoffensivenonoffensive Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I'll play if Concord agents run around driving stakes into people for trying to start fights in protected areas.

    nonoffensive on
  • ArchonexArchonex No hard feelings, right? Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    It's kind of hard to do a realistic WoD without including the seedy underside of it, so i'm not that bothered by them wanting to do a sex sells approach to the game.

    When you start to analyze just how hosed up the Old World of Darkness really is you'll see that it isn't a setting for kids. Sadly, none of the games really touch on this outside of some parts of Bloodlines.


    Even then, hell, Bloodlines had a strip club or some sort of illicit business in every major area, if not on every corner. The WoD is a seedy, fucked up place. So I can forgive them for wanting to showcase that if that's the direction they go.



    Besides, Bloodlines is a good example of how gameplay should be as a vampire. It's not all about combat. Hell, combat isn't even the preferred way to go for some clans, since they can get their asses torn up in a straight fight.

    I mean sure, you can build a combat character that can approach every situation with a gun in one hand, and a stake in the other, but you can also talk or manipulate your way through most other situations. Plus, most of the older, more experienced characters don't take the "kill everything that moves" approach outside of the Sabbat. They leave that to the newbies, like your character in Bloodlines. Running in guns blazing isn't the preferred way to live over a hundred years, after all.


    If they're going to let players advance to the rank of elder, I can imagine that that would require a much, much, more in depth diplomacy system. So if it stays true to the series, early characters will probably be a bit more combat focused as they stake out their territory or work their way up the Camarilla/Sabbat power structure, while older characters will be more scheming, and have "managerial" positions.



    Edit: Given the subdued nature of those notes, at the very least, they seem to be treating the concept of a MMO catering to adults much more respectfully then Age of Conan did. The developers of Age of Conan basically just went "Tits! See! We have tits!" the entire time they were in their development phase, and were asked about some of the more mature features the game was supposed to have.

    That makes me hope that they're not going to put their focus on making Second Life 2.0, and focus on making a World of Darkness game instead.

    Archonex on
  • GrimgothGrimgoth Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    LFM TziAnt10, gen5 or lower nonfail Brujah/Gangrel DPS only! have Salubri healer. come to 42nd Street subway and wave for inspection.


    ...

    Yeah... It'll be the community that makes or breaks this game. D:

    Grimgoth on
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Archonex wrote: »
    It's kind of hard to do a realistic WoD without including the seedy underside of it, so i'm not that bothered by them wanting to do a sex sells approach to the game.

    When you start to analyze just how hosed up the Old World of Darkness really is you'll see that it isn't a setting for kids. Sadly, none of the games really touch on this outside of some parts of Bloodlines.


    Even then, hell, Bloodlines had a strip club or some sort of illicit business in every major area, if not on every corner. The WoD is a seedy, fucked up place. So I can forgive them for wanting to showcase that if that's the direction they go.

    See there is a line between this and cyber sex. Reasonably portraying the seedy underbelly is something a good WoD ST does. Saying "Okay you're naked with <other player> please describe to me how you fuck." is not. This is probably going to lean towards the latter, which is why it will probably be awful.

    Fiaryn on
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