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[World of Darkness] Paradox buys White Wolf - Maybe not dead

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    ForumiteForumite Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2010
    I don't think even a fraction of that list will make it in

    This is an MMO we're talking about, not an actual good game

    Forumite on
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    Forumite wrote: »
    This is an MMO we're talking about, not an actual good game

    The two are not mutually exclusive, you know.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
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    ArchonexArchonex No hard feelings, right? Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I made the comment about "Hate Crimes Online" because I wouldn't want to see a situation where a group of assholes decides they're going to target people playing gay characters or patronizing gay clubs, but at the same time acknowledge that, unfortunately it probably will happen and it's tough to deal with well. Simply dealing with the fact that, yes, gay people exist and have clubs they sometimes like to go to in mature and respectful way would be a huge step forward from how a lot of the gaming industry ("OMG, you're from FORT GAY?!?! BANNED!") has behaved.

    I honestly don't think that discrimination will be too much of a problem in this game once the population settles in.


    Consider that it's harder for a bunch of bigoted assholes to get together in a game where there's no infrastructure (Websites for them to gather at, etc, etc.) then it is in real life.


    Also, another advantage that this game will have is that, unlike in real life, if someone bothers you, you can take them out into the back alley behind the club and ram a stake through their heart. I'm pretty sure that method of defense isn't typically used in real life.

    Archonex on
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    ForumiteForumite Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2010
    Forumite wrote: »
    This is an MMO we're talking about, not an actual good game

    The two are not mutually exclusive, you know.

    Depends on who you ask. Not sure I've ever played an MMO that I could honestly call a good 'game'. Some of them are nice social hubs, though.

    EVE is the closest to an MMO being a good game, but the controls are awful. And when the game launched it was atrocious. It basically took them 6 years to make it into a what it is today

    Most other MMO's I've played have been cancelled already

    Forumite on
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    Which ones were they?

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
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    KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Which ones were they?

    I've played Matrix Online, City of Heroes, Lord of the Rings, Age of Conan, Guild Wars, WoW til like level 40 on a couple characters, Requiem, Ragnarok Online, Phantasy Star Online, Star Wars Online, Maple Story, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Final Fantasy XI, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I think that's it.

    -edit- Oh I also played EVE for like 2 hours.

    KoopahTroopah on
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    Before everyone starts piping up with their MMO credentials, I just wanted to know which specific MMOs he was talking about that went out of business so I could see where he was getting his "MMOs are not good games"point of view.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
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    NylonathetepNylonathetep Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I don't see how this game can work...

    For example how does having huge influence Toreador can prevent a heavy combat spec Brujah from being ganked. Sadly, every MMO have its share of grieivers that just camp lowbies all day.

    Maybe the game is based on gaining influence instead, and ganking doesn't give much influence? That would mean that combat spec is probably useless unless it's vs NPC to accomplish task which gains influence (quest)

    Probably influence means that you get extra bodyguards and protection within sight of friendly NPC??

    Story Arc = Gehanna.

    Nylonathetep on
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    ForumiteForumite Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2010
    The last 3 MMO's I played were APB, WoW and EVE.

    APB was just completely unfinished. WoW is okay because of production values, but I can't say with a straight face that I am having fun per se when I play it. When I was still active in WoW, I treated it more as something relaxing I did after work, something to shut my brain off to. Gameplay is dry as hell and the story is ridiculous, but it's got a lot of players and it's easy to keep in touch with my guild in there.

    Other, unrelated MMO's I've played;

    WAR (bad), Tabula Rasa (bad), Age of Conan(bad but has gotten slightly better) and Asherons Call 1-2 (disaster), Mortal Online (horrible) and Darkfall (awful). I dabbled in SWG and EQ2 as well but was too turned off by the gameplay to get into it deep. I heard SWG was fun for a while though, before they "ruined" it?

    Oh and Planetside.

    I actually enjoyed Planetside :(

    Forumite on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Before everyone starts piping up with their MMO credentials, I just wanted to know which specific MMOs he was talking about that went out of business so I could see where he was getting his "MMOs are not good games"point of view.

    To an extent I have to agree with him. Most MMORPGs are very average to mediocre games uplifted solely by virtue of how entertaining they can be to play with other people. On their own merits they're...passable.

    Fiaryn on
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    ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Forumite wrote: »
    The last 3 MMO's I played were APB, WoW and EVE. APB was just completely unfinished. WoW is okay because of production values, but I can't say with a straight face that I am having fun per se when I play it. When I was still active in WoW, I treated it more as something relaxing I did after work, something to shut my brain off to. Gameplay is dry as hell and the story is ridiculous, but it's got a lot of players and it's easy to keep in touch with my guild in there.

    Other, unrelated MMO's I've played;

    WAR (bad), Tabula Rasa (bad), Age of Conan(bad but has gotten slightly better) and Asherons Call 1-2 (disaster), Mortal Online (horrible) and Darkfall (awful). I dabbled in SWG and EQ2 as well but was too turned off by the gameplay to get into it deep. I heard SWG was fun for a while though, before they "ruined" it?

    Oh and Planetside.

    I actually enjoyed Planetside :(

    What did you find so bad about Asheron's Call?

    Also, when did you play AC?

    I actually prefer MMOs to normal video games now, just because of the social interaction aspect. Comparing an MMO to a console game or any sort of single player game is like comparing apples to oranges. If you are going into an MMO expecting it to be like a single player RPG, you are being ridiculous and trying to get a type of game play that the genre was not really made to give.

    Comahawk on
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    ForumiteForumite Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2010
    Regarding AC, I was mostly talking about the transition from 1 to 2. The second game was almost nothing like the first one. It was ridiculous

    Forumite on
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    ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    So, you hated Asheron's Call 2, just like everyone else? Okay.

    Comahawk on
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    syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited September 2010
    AC2 had some fantastic ideas, and was a very pretty game for its time... and most of their great ideas were mined and put into DDO and LOTRO, two much more successful releases from them...

    But you have to remember, Turbine had that sweet Microsoft bankroll when AC1 was made, and it allowed a very young company to release a product that was much bigger than they were capable of handling alone. They really got their first stumbling steps out of the way on AC2, when they were officially independent.

    syndalis on
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    GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    In short, Malkavians are pretty much the worst clan.
    The Salubri were pretty damn dumb and emo.

    The Ravnos were just plain offensive.
    * Territory control. An adult-only play space. Roleplayers want a space where the integrity of the setting colors the conversation. Don't want to suffer through Chuck Norris jokes and other immersion-breaking chatter.
    It's precious that jachilli doesn't understand that the people who are making the Chuck Norris jokes are actually adults.
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Archonex wrote: »
    Fortunately, there's been no indication that they're taking the "Okay you're naked with <other player> please describe to me how you fuck." route thus far.

    Okay, consider for a moment that the other two MMORPGs touted for their ability to customize the players appearance to a vast degree (City of Heroes/Villains and Champions Online) are also festering hives of cyber sex and yiffing. And those are games that have no real stated objective of catering to roleplay or social elements!
    I literally had no idea that people were cybering in CO.

    GungHo on
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    NeliNeli Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    People are cybering everywhere

    Not sure I've played an MMO where I haven't seen or heard of it

    Neli on
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    cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The last MMO I played was SMT Imagine.

    It was also the first.


    As SMT goes, it was mediocre at best. As MMOs go, good music, style, and gameplay, terrible grinding. Par for the course in MMOs I guess.

    cj iwakura on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    GungHo wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    In short, Malkavians are pretty much the worst clan.
    The Salubri were pretty damn dumb and emo.

    The Ravnos were just plain offensive.

    See, Malkavians are kind of the opposite problem of Salubri and Ravnos. Salubri and Ravnos are dumb concepts, the on average execution was nothing all that noteworthy however.

    Malkavians are a good concept that very few players can pull off, so the average execution is fucking atrocious.

    That said I'd still rather they keep Malkavians in and keep Salubri/Setites/Ravnos out. The latter two are just...just yeah.

    Fiaryn on
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    cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Ravnos was my favorite clan novel. I've never seen them used that well in anything else.


    Much like the Salubri, they're almost extinct. And much like Setites, best used in small doses, manipulating from the sidelines.


    The game should have at least one as a manipulative NPC.

    cj iwakura on
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Ravnos are only almost extinct if they take into account the whole "Year of Reckoning" malarky, which they may not.

    Undead Scottsman on
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    cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Well, they should have the menace of Gehenna looming in the air, and what better way than with rumors of Ravnos' vicious awakening?

    I think the story was that no two tales of Ravnos waking up were true, and they were actually all true.


    The Kuei-Jin and the Technocracy were involved, a spirit nuke didn't stop it, and the sun finally did.


    And Ravnos had master level Chimerstry. It might not have even been it!

    cj iwakura on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Somehow I don't think demon god Vampires creating continent wide nightmares and being solar nuked after a three day long kung fu brawl is the best approach for reeling in a casual audience.

    I think they're going to leave any mentions of Gehenna, if any, very vague. The details would hit the average players suspension of disbelief like a brick.

    Fiaryn on
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    Discovering those details will be an interesting series of mission lines as well. Why give up the content all up front?

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
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    ArchonexArchonex No hard feelings, right? Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Well, they should have the menace of Gehenna looming in the air, and what better way than with rumors of Ravnos' vicious awakening?

    I think the story was that no two tales of Ravnos waking up were true, and they were actually all true.


    The Kuei-Jin and the Technocracy were involved, a spirit nuke didn't stop it, and the sun finally did.


    And Ravnos had master level Chimerstry. It might not have even been it!

    There's also the whole thing where short of something like God smiting them, the Antediluvians simply can't die, unless they want too.


    So odds are Ravnos was just putting on a show for the world, in preparation to escape the shit hitting the fan during Gehenna.


    There's a great article on the Ventrue Antediluvian on one of the white wolf wikis, where one of the designers of the game speculates that he's been playing the "long game" for over a millenium in order to survive Gehenna.

    In the closing days of the original White Wolf forums, after all the Time of Judgment books had been released, but prior to the release of the new World of Darkness, Justin Achilli made the following post:

    ([Ventrue] makes it past Gehenna. Every time something conspires to make things difficult for him, he arranges to be "killed," thereafter to return to the semblance of unlife he held before.)

    (Read the Book of Nod, specifically "The Words of Ventrue to his Childer." Ventrue claims, "We ruled in Enoch!" as well as "We ruled in the Second City!" By all accounts, [Ventrue] is slain outside the Second City. However, "The Words of Ventrue to his Childer" also include venerations of Greek and Roman gods, dated far after the Second City. Further, assuming that [Ventrue] sired both Tiamat/Dragonskyr and Mithras, both of those events occurred long after the Second City. The Ventrue clanbook points to several times over the course of the centuries when someone at least claiming to be [Ventrue] undertook some course of action. Certainly, some of these were false. But not all.)

    (According to p. 56 of Vampire the Masquerade, Antediluvians "are the last vampires to have true mastery over life and death, and maybe destroyed only if they so choose or if one of equal power bests them." We do not know who supposedly killed [Ventrue] outside the walls of the Second City, but if his historical appearances afterward are any indication, it could not have been [Brujah] or Troile, as is widely suspected, because either of them could, theoretically, be "of equal power." As the Book of Nod admonishes, "To rid yourself of an enemy, outlive him.")


    (And so, that is the path [Ventrue] took, a true master of the Jyhad. By convincing the world of his Final Death, he placed himself outside it, and this was truth, for he was indeed dead. But by invoking his own "power over life and death," he could cheat that state, and return to undeath at his will.)

    (Which is precisely how he weathered Gehenna. During the culling, he remained dead. As the last ashes of all the other Childer of Caine fell from the sky, his eyes flickered open in whatever forgotten tomb housed his ancient remains.)



    The Antediluvians are basically Lovecraft's Old Ones. Out of all of the vampires, they're also the only ones who are really playing the long game against God, Caine, and pretty much everyone else, right.


    Hell, you could do a post Gehenna OWoD using that bit of lore without much trouble.

    Archonex on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I always thought the Antediluvians were kind of a ridiculous concept anyway in a setting that acknowledges Abrahamic God as both real and responsible for the vampiric curse.

    "Alright Caine, you're cursed for being an insufferable douche. Oh also here have unfathomable super powers and complete command over life and death, the form of your body, fucking time itself, and whatever other bullshit takes your fancy. Oh and I guess you can merge with/obtain control over the land itself. OH MAN HE'LL BE SO SORRY HE MURDERED ABEL."

    Wait

    Fiaryn on
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    ArchonexArchonex No hard feelings, right? Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    I always thought the Antediluvians were kind of a ridiculous concept anyway in a setting that acknowledges Abrahamic God as both real and responsible for the vampiric curse.

    "Alright Caine, you're cursed for being an insufferable douche. Oh also here have unfathomable super powers and complete command over life and death, the form of your body, fucking time itself, and whatever other bullshit takes your fancy. Oh and I guess you can merge with/obtain control over the land itself. OH MAN HE'LL BE SO SORRY HE MURDERED ABEL."

    Wait

    I'm pretty sure that part of the curse was that Caine would always be betrayed by those he trusted, as punishment for not repenting for killing Abel.

    The curse isn't as good as it initially seems unless you're a heartless bastard or sociopathic monster, like the surviving Antediluvians are. Presumably, the second generation "vampires" (Who weren't really vampires, then.) were, largely, much more decent then the Antediluvians and modern scheming vamps are.


    So yeah, as I understand it, God gave him these crazy awesome super powers and the ability to impart immortality to those he chose. But then everyone Caine's children tried to buddy up too ended up stabbing the second generation in the back, or enacting heroic last stands to protect Caine's ideals/their offspring against the previously aforementioned backstabbing assholes.

    Things only got worse when Caine got back from where-ever he was when all that happened (It's never made clear what he was doing, but it was important.), and came back to find everyone and everything he knew butchered in the streets. That probably fucked Caine up in the head pretty badly, given what happened next.

    Caine himself ended up cursing the main clans in a fit of rage after that. The exception being the founder of the Salubri, who was exempted from it for being a pretty chill dude who was more interested in peace, then being a backstabbing jackass. Though he volunteered to be cursed, probably since he was hoping to keep the trust of the (By then) asshattish survivors.


    Fast forward to the Final Nights setting, and Caine is pretty much just burnt out after watching the vampires and other supernaturals fuck the world up for almost two millenia. He's pretty much content to let the world burn after seeing how far everything's slipped down the tube, depending on the story-tellers view of things.


    God in the OWoD isn't a nice guy. He's arguably more evil then the devil, who, in a twist of fate, may or may not be a good guy who rebelled because God was being such a raging dick to humanity.

    The OWoD God does stuff that has long reaching effects for everyone, even people who are innocent. Like setting into motion the extermination of every good person who had Caine's gift, and leaving only the asshole Antediluvians left for the world to deal with. Nevermind pretty much condemning a good portion of the world to be butchered and set back into the stone age, just because one guy killed his brother and wasn't sorry about it.

    Archonex on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Yes you see this is part of the absurdity. I mean, if you leave it at the 1-5 ranks of the Disciplines it's like okay dark magic/powers whatever.

    Antediluvian level shit is just silly. It's not a moving story, it's not deep, it's just balls to the wall crazytown.

    Fiaryn on
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    cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    An ST once told me the rules for rolling against Caine were as follows:

    you lose.

    cj iwakura on
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Antedeluvians were always my least favorite part of Vampire. You have this thing that's supposed to be a curse, yet the big badass motherfuckers with this curse are demigods, matched only by the most powerful Umbrood or Mages so powerful they can't exist on the mortal plane anymore.

    It's like, outside of God and the big three (Weaver, Wyrm, Wyld) there is nothing more powerful than those 14 vampires. I never felt it was appropriate for there to be Vampires of that power level. You'll never see a Werewolf or Wraith even remotely approach that level of power, and like I said, any Mage that powerful would have had to go live in the Umbra lest his every action cause a massive paradox backlash. Even the oldest Mummy in the universe wouldn't be that powerful, and they literally can never die.

    It just doesn't thematically mesh well to me. But I'm more of a fan of the World of Darkness as a whole, so I can actually compare powers across gamelines, which is my first mistake. But it just always seemed like Vampires filled the "Vermin" niche in the WoD. They're not individually as powerful as a Werewolf or Mage, but there's a fuckton more of them and they can create more of themselves. It's just weird that they occupy both the niche of being so populous AND being the most powerful things to walk the mortal plane. Just doesn't jive with me.

    Undead Scottsman on
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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Well, the problem isn't with the Antediluvians specifically, although they are probably one of the biggest symptoms of the problem. The problem (and it isn't necessarily a problem) is that the oWoD was never meant to be viewed as a unified whole, much less played as one. (If it were, characters from their second game wouldn't have made equivalent characters from the first game completely extraneous in a fight.) Every game has its own assumptions, and even when one of them references some other game line, it's filtering that game through its own cosmology. Werewolf assumes that vampires were created by the Wyrm and not cursed by God; Mage assumes that the Triat are just emanations of other fundamental forces; Demon assumes that the society of the Underworld was founded by demons and not by wraiths; and Changeling just does its own damn thing. On a small-scale level, sure, you can hypothetically make the different games fit together (assuming that they don't clash thematically or mechanically), and handwave the big questions as unanswerable by the PCs... but on the macro level, every game line is its own distinct entity with its own highly divergent vision of what the World of Darkness is and how it works.

    gtrmp on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Truth. But people seem to not want this to be the case, which is just willful obtuseness IMO.

    Regina Fong on
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Truth. But people seem to not want this to be the case, which is just willful obtuseness IMO.

    Because White-Wolf wanted to have their cake and eat it too, and encouraged crossover

    Examples: Ghost Towns (Werewolf and Wraith), Blood Treachery (Mage and Vampire) and probably the biggest offender: Chaos Factor (Bigass Vampire, Werewolf and Mage crossover with the king of crossover himself, Sam Haight as the main villian. (Sam Haight being a Werewolf who kills vampires, uses their blood to ghoul himself so he can use disciplines, and has a staff with a portion of a mages Avatar in it that can be used to cast spells via awakened magic.))

    Hell, the Tremere themselves were blatant crossover, having been Awakened Mages before becoming Vampires.

    White-Wolf never went out of their way to actually separate the gamelines, despite repeated statements that they should be kept separate.

    Undead Scottsman on
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    cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    NWoD was pretty much designed with the idea of crossovers. You could easily use the same rules for the Umbra with Mage necromancers as you could with Werewolf spiritwalkers(or whatever).

    cj iwakura on
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    NWoD was pretty much designed with the idea of crossovers. You could easily use the same rules for the Umbra with Mage necromancers as you could with Werewolf spiritwalkers(or whatever).

    Plus the power levels were more compatible.

    One of the reasons I like the nWoD better. If these things are going to exist in the same world, it's very likely these supernaturals are going to interact with each other.

    Undead Scottsman on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    NWoD was pretty much designed with the idea of crossovers. You could easily use the same rules for the Umbra with Mage necromancers as you could with Werewolf spiritwalkers(or whatever).

    Plus the power levels were more compatible.

    This. Power levels got toned down by a vast margin in NWoD. No more ridiculous DBZ Vampires with instant-goth-transmission.

    Fiaryn on
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    KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    NWoD was pretty much designed with the idea of crossovers. You could easily use the same rules for the Umbra with Mage necromancers as you could with Werewolf spiritwalkers(or whatever).

    Plus the power levels were more compatible.

    This. Power levels got toned down by a vast margin in NWoD. No more ridiculous DBZ Vampires with instant-goth-transmission.

    Mesenko! HAAAAAAAAAAAA

    KoopahTroopah on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I never felt like vamps were innately overpowered. Mage had a really uneven system going with the spheres. It would be my pick for most the problematic one. A starting Mage could easily be anywhere from non-functional to fairly overpowered. Also, too much of the paradox rules were left up to storyteller interpretation. Knew one storyteller who had such a harsh and cheerless take on it that, to give an example, you couldn't use matter to fix a car engine and have it not be vulgar unless you knew enough about auto mechanics and had all the available tools handy.

    Which obviously leaves you wondering why bother using magic at that point, which is when the storyteller would get a huge shit-eating grin.

    Regina Fong on
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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Hell, the Tremere themselves were blatant crossover, having been Awakened Mages before becoming Vampires.

    If you want to get technical, the Tremere were an Ars Magica crossover long before there was ever such a thing as Mage.

    gtrmp on
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    To put my own spin on your example, it is all relative and contextual.

    Are there witnesses to the engine not working and then working?
    Do those witnesses know why the engine wasn't working and what it would normally take to fix it?
    Did they witness the Mage doing something to the engine, and if so could that something be interpreted as legitimate engine repair? Like, if he sang to it or something and then it cranked over.

    Questions you have to deal with for Mage. If there are no witnesses than kick the tires and make it start up.

    If there are knowledgeable witnesses following along closely then just forget about magicking the thing.

    If there are witnesses, but ignorant ones, then put on a good convincing show while you magic it.


    Edit: Also, if the Mage knows nothing about engines, then he could maybe make it run with magic. But when the magic stops so does the engine.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I never felt like vamps were innately overpowered. Mage had a really uneven system going with the spheres. It would be my pick for most the problematic one. A starting Mage could easily be anywhere from non-functional to fairly overpowered.

    Yeah, if you stuck with the five-dot spread of powers (if), vampires didn't have an edge over anything else that wasn't compensated for in some other way. Power-wise, it went something like Werewolf > Kuei-jin > Vampire > Changeling > Wraith > Imbued > 'Special' Mortals. It's hard to put mages on a specific spot on there because the way they used their powers varied from player to player (and from storyteller to storyteller) more than it did from character to character.

    The mechanical refinements of Paradox and the Spheres were the only things that Revised Mage did better than previous editions. A lot of people who started with earlier editions had already improvised their own rules for them, so they never really bothered with changing things up once Revised rolled around (if they even bothered with Revised in the first place).

    gtrmp on
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