I've long been on the fence about homeschooling. The idea appeals to me - largely because I had some pretty major problems adjusting to high school myself, I'm not terribly enamored with the idea of fencing kids in an overcrowded institution where they're subjected to a rigid daily regime (and subjected to each other). But homeschooling seems to be primarily the domain of religious wackos and newage hippies who for different respective reasons mostly just want to opt-out of mainstream fact-based education and substitute in their own mythological fantasies.
I don't know whether your characterization of homeschooling is correct, but does it really matter? Even if you don't like the reasons other people might homeschool, that shouldn't really make a difference as to whether homeschooling would or would not work for you.
That program in your OP sounds pretty cool, though. I can see it working well for kids who want to learn but don't do well in a traditional school enviornment.
I resent your characterization of homeschoolers Feral, but I do think that this is a good idea; this is the digital age, why not embrace it?
Because no matter how digital we get the vast majority of people work in places that aren't their home, have coworkers who aren't their Mom, and sometimes have to do things that aren't their favorite.
I've long been on the fence about homeschooling. The idea appeals to me - largely because I had some pretty major problems adjusting to high school myself, I'm not terribly enamored with the idea of fencing kids in an overcrowded institution where they're subjected to a rigid daily regime (and subjected to each other). But homeschooling seems to be primarily the domain of religious wackos and newage hippies who for different respective reasons mostly just want to opt-out of mainstream fact-based education and substitute in their own mythological fantasies.
I don't know whether your characterization of homeschooling is correct, but does it really matter? Even if you don't like the reasons other people might homeschool, that shouldn't really make a difference as to whether homeschooling would or would not work for you.
That program in your OP sounds pretty cool, though. I can see it working well for kids who want to learn but don't do well in a traditional school enviornment.
I resent your characterization of homeschoolers Feral, but I do think that this is a good idea; this is the digital age, why not embrace it?
Because no matter how digital we get the vast majority of people work in places that aren't their home, have coworkers who aren't their Mom, and sometimes have to do things that aren't their favorite.
I've long been on the fence about homeschooling. The idea appeals to me - largely because I had some pretty major problems adjusting to high school myself, I'm not terribly enamored with the idea of fencing kids in an overcrowded institution where they're subjected to a rigid daily regime (and subjected to each other). But homeschooling seems to be primarily the domain of religious wackos and newage hippies who for different respective reasons mostly just want to opt-out of mainstream fact-based education and substitute in their own mythological fantasies.
I don't know whether your characterization of homeschooling is correct, but does it really matter? Even if you don't like the reasons other people might homeschool, that shouldn't really make a difference as to whether homeschooling would or would not work for you.
That program in your OP sounds pretty cool, though. I can see it working well for kids who want to learn but don't do well in a traditional school enviornment.
I resent your characterization of homeschoolers Feral, but I do think that this is a good idea; this is the digital age, why not embrace it?
Yeah, it was a snarky characterization.
I don't have a problem with homeschooling as long as the education remains fact-based. Which I'm sure many or most homeschool curricula are. But in some states there's no mandate that it needs to be that way, or if it is, there's little to no enforcement - you can teach Creationism or ID or Raelianism or whatever you want.
It's not so much that I think that most homeschoolers are crazy. I don't. It's more that I recognize that a significant minority are crazy, and that offering a public online program is a way of providing people the benefits of homeschooling without sanctioning the crazy.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
jclast you do realize that it is possible to learn social interactions outside of the framework of the school environment, and that these online classes still have deadlines and authority figures, correct?
I've long been on the fence about homeschooling. The idea appeals to me - largely because I had some pretty major problems adjusting to high school myself, I'm not terribly enamored with the idea of fencing kids in an overcrowded institution where they're subjected to a rigid daily regime (and subjected to each other). But homeschooling seems to be primarily the domain of religious wackos and newage hippies who for different respective reasons mostly just want to opt-out of mainstream fact-based education and substitute in their own mythological fantasies.
I don't know whether your characterization of homeschooling is correct, but does it really matter? Even if you don't like the reasons other people might homeschool, that shouldn't really make a difference as to whether homeschooling would or would not work for you.
That program in your OP sounds pretty cool, though. I can see it working well for kids who want to learn but don't do well in a traditional school enviornment.
I resent your characterization of homeschoolers Feral, but I do think that this is a good idea; this is the digital age, why not embrace it?
Because no matter how digital we get the vast majority of people work in places that aren't their home, have coworkers who aren't their Mom, and sometimes have to do things that aren't their favorite.
I'm willing to chalk it up to that I have only met a handful of home-schooled kids, but they're all socially awkward kids who seem behind kids of the same age who attend public school. You also learn a ton in school that isn't printed in a math or science book. You learn how to work in a team, you learn how to cope with situations that you don't especially enjoy, and (to borrow from the quote in the OP) you learn how to be a functioning human being before 2:00 PM.
You also don't have a full range of choices in what you'll do for the day. My neighbor homeschools her kids and she's doing them a disservice. The boy reads a couple years beyond what his grade level would be in public school, but he is behind in science (he won't do the experiments because he doesn't like to get dirty and his hand-eye coordination isn't great... which itself is probably related to that he wouldn't color as a kid because he doesn't like it while in school it would have been an assignment that he had to complete), math, and anything else that doesn't involve sitting and reading a non-fiction book, sitting and watching TV, or sitting and playing a video game.
Haha. I refused to colour in school. It was the first time I got into trouble.
When asked why, I said 'My dad doesn't colour at work.'
In my defense, we were colouring for a math assignment. And I don't colour at work, either.
You're just a bundle of politeness aren't you.
Actually, I am extremely polite. I don't think I ever had a teacher who didn't like me, despite also not having a lot of teachers that didn't complain about me.
If I were to be characterized as anything, I think I'd prefer 'a bundle of pointy-ness.'
Yeah, my Mom taught me to read, and my Dad helped me learn fractions, but I don't think either of them ever programmed a computer, ran a fancy chemistry experiment, or solved a physics equation. It's hard to teach people things you know - it's exceptionally difficult to teach them things that you don't.
I was lucky; my father was as good with science as any of my science teachers (they were all friends anyhow) and considerably better at philosophy than my religious studies teachers (that's right, catholic education,) and my mother was a teacher. But I wasn't homeschooled, and I agree that most parents simply don't have what it takes to provide a comprehensive education.
That said, I'm not against homeschooling because I'm sure some parents do have what it takes. But I think homeschooled kids need to be given standardized tests in a controlled environment to verify that they're getting an education.
I've long been on the fence about homeschooling. The idea appeals to me - largely because I had some pretty major problems adjusting to high school myself, I'm not terribly enamored with the idea of fencing kids in an overcrowded institution where they're subjected to a rigid daily regime (and subjected to each other). But homeschooling seems to be primarily the domain of religious wackos and newage hippies who for different respective reasons mostly just want to opt-out of mainstream fact-based education and substitute in their own mythological fantasies.
I don't know whether your characterization of homeschooling is correct, but does it really matter? Even if you don't like the reasons other people might homeschool, that shouldn't really make a difference as to whether homeschooling would or would not work for you.
That program in your OP sounds pretty cool, though. I can see it working well for kids who want to learn but don't do well in a traditional school enviornment.
I resent your characterization of homeschoolers Feral, but I do think that this is a good idea; this is the digital age, why not embrace it?
Because no matter how digital we get the vast majority of people work in places that aren't their home, have coworkers who aren't their Mom, and sometimes have to do things that aren't their favorite.
I was homeschooled as a kid - 4th grade to 8th grade. My little sis (2 years younger) started homeschooling at the same time as me, but my mother let her return to middle school for 8th grade. Let me just say, missing middle school was easily the best thing in my life. You think kids need "socialization"? How about the fact that the school had to hold an intervention for my little sister's 8th grade class because the girls were so mean, one girl attempted suicide and two more were attending counseling to prevent this? Boy, I sure am glad she got that kind of socialization! Sure, that's purely anecdotal, but as someone who never experienced it but heard plenty of people refer to it with horror, I am SO GLAD I missed out. This is all purely anecdotal but honestly, did you all have perfect school experiences? Surely some of you experienced the bullying and generally shitty behavior that homeschoolers miss out on?
Don't get me wrong, there are outliers in the homeschooling group - I've met plenty of the socially inept, gun-toting, Bible-quoting homeschooled kids whose parents homeschooled their kids because they weren't "getting enough Jesus".
On the other hand, my dad is a high school teacher (teaches calculus, certified to teach chemistry and physics but doesn't do this because he works part time as their network admin) and my mother was an accountant who went back to school to get a teaching degree before she started homeschooling us. So I definitely lucked out. We were way, way ahead of kids our age when we started high school.
Honestly, in a well-run home, homeschooling is absolutely amazing. You have time to teach your kids so much more, since no time is wasted. You can teach to your kid's level, instead of expecting them to play catch-up in areas where they are weak (which, in a school setting, can also detrimentally affect your kid's confidence if they "don't get" something that everyone else grasps) or hold them back in areas where they are strong. To a certain extent, my little sister and I learned to teach ourselves - we got to the point where we would rather just read the textbook and ask our mom questions, instead of walk through it with her (which was soooo boring and a total waste of time, thought the 4th grade me). You have time to encourage your kid's interests, to take fun field trips, etc.
However, I don't think kids should ever go through high school being homeschooled. It works out way too rarely. And the parents need to really know their stuff. My dad could've helped my sister and I through it, but I know my mother wasn't at all confident about teaching us that stuff. I DO think that homeschooling, up to 8th grade, is good if the parents are well-educated; and even then a kid can be homeschooled up to at least 4th or 5th grade and still come out way ahead.
The ONLY way that homeschooling is weaker is through its lack of rigorous testing and standards. I personally think homeschooled kids should be tested every year, and if they are behind in a subject, they should be required to attend summer school or, if they are egregiously behind, should be required to enroll back in school. If the parents wish to homeschool their kids, they should be required to take certifications which prove they understand and are capable of teaching the material. They should also be required to take some classes on how to teach.
edit: totes forgot: Socialization. Uhh yeah there was actually a homeschooling group in our county. (which, by the way, had a population of 13k people - yes that's the whole county - and we had a group of about 30 or 40 kids. I can imagine how much bigger it'd be in a more populated area. so as long as the parents join one of these groups, it's really not a problem to provide socialization) Also our town provided summer rec stuff. And the local schools were beginning to adjust to the new "homeschooling fad" when I got into high school, and were beginning to allow homeschoolers to participate in afterschool programs and sports and stuff.
Oh and just to be clear: I don't have a problem with online learning as long as the kids undergo the same testing (if not more) and complete their homework on time. Should be very strict with a definite policy if kids skip out or don't turn in assignments.
jclast you do realize that it is possible to learn social interactions outside of the framework of the school environment, and that these online classes still have deadlines and authority figures, correct?
I do understand that. And web-based homeschool is better than parental homeschool. But you know what's better than both of them? Real school.
jclast you do realize that it is possible to learn social interactions outside of the framework of the school environment, and that these online classes still have deadlines and authority figures, correct?
I do understand that. And web-based homeschool is better than parental homeschool. But you know what's better than both of them? Real school.
Now you're just being insensitive. I bet you want to take away wheelchairs too, comrade.
jclast you do realize that it is possible to learn social interactions outside of the framework of the school environment, and that these online classes still have deadlines and authority figures, correct?
I do understand that. And web-based homeschool is better than parental homeschool. But you know what's better than both of them? Real school.
this is a complete generalization and you cannot prove that it's true even 75% of the time
you are making a huge sweeping value judgement about something with, I'm guessing, no solid numbers or cites
however I would love to be proven wrong!
Spacemilk on
0
Options
JakarrdIn the belly ofOklahomaRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
I'm mixed on it. Learning from home like that would have been awesome. It's like college for the young generation. get up at a time suitable to you depending on how classes are arranged. Do you work, upload, move on to next topic, etc. And only have to deal with family bullies as opposed to random bullies at school would be a plus.
The problem I have, I guess, is what the parent(s) are also homeschooling someone on (I really don't need them to be learning about Intelligent Gestation Theory). In my state we've had a few homeschoolers that were totally religious based. The fact that we had a 20 year hold here debating whether the earth was the center of the universe (seriously) is what scares me. But then again, with that dentist in Texas, I'm sure we'll get away from fact based studies soon enough.
Jakarrd on
Greetings Starfighter! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against Xur and the Ko-Dan Armada.
jclast you do realize that it is possible to learn social interactions outside of the framework of the school environment, and that these online classes still have deadlines and authority figures, correct?
I do understand that. And web-based homeschool is better than parental homeschool. But you know what's better than both of them? Real school.
jclast you do realize that it is possible to learn social interactions outside of the framework of the school environment, and that these online classes still have deadlines and authority figures, correct?
I do understand that. And web-based homeschool is better than parental homeschool. But you know what's better than both of them? Real school.
this is a complete generalization and you cannot prove that it's true even 75% of the time
you are making a huge sweeping value judgement about something with, I'm guessing, no solid numbers or cites
however I would love to be proven wrong!
And I would love to prove it to you, but I've never seen a study that talks about how well homeschooled students do in the real world. I'd love to see that they're just as employable as their public and private school counterparts. I'd love to see that they make just as much money. I'd absolutely love to be wrong about homeschool, and I sincerely hope that I've been unlucky and only met homeschool kids whose parents aren't doing it right (which makes me very sad as I'm sure my neighbor's kid could be very smart, but as is he's a pretty dim bulb unless you want him to read something while quietly sitting in the living room).
You're right though. I made a value judgment about home-schooling. I don't like it, and I think it sets kids back unless very specific criteria are met which are completely out of the child's control. At least with public school you can be guaranteed that you child is being taught on a reviewed and approved curriculum. You want to be involved in your child's education? Marry the 2 concepts together. Send them to school to be taught by trained professionals and then be involved when they come home. More learning never hurt anybody.
jclast on
0
Options
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
Yes, high school apathy towards authority figures and waking times is indicative of all future success.
I've long been on the fence about homeschooling. The idea appeals to me - largely because I had some pretty major problems adjusting to high school myself, I'm not terribly enamored with the idea of fencing kids in an overcrowded institution where they're subjected to a rigid daily regime (and subjected to each other). But homeschooling seems to be primarily the domain of religious wackos and newage hippies who for different respective reasons mostly just want to opt-out of mainstream fact-based education and substitute in their own mythological fantasies.
I don't know whether your characterization of homeschooling is correct, but does it really matter? Even if you don't like the reasons other people might homeschool, that shouldn't really make a difference as to whether homeschooling would or would not work for you.
That program in your OP sounds pretty cool, though. I can see it working well for kids who want to learn but don't do well in a traditional school enviornment.
I resent your characterization of homeschoolers Feral, but I do think that this is a good idea; this is the digital age, why not embrace it?
Because no matter how digital we get the vast majority of people work in places that aren't their home, have coworkers who aren't their Mom, and sometimes have to do things that aren't their favorite.
Sure but the idea is that you have a choice in what job you take. If you seriously cannot deal with a 9-5 because your rhythm just doesn't work with it you can get a job that fits you better. There's no reason to deny education simply because not all jobs will be as accomodating.
jclast you do realize that it is possible to learn social interactions outside of the framework of the school environment, and that these online classes still have deadlines and authority figures, correct?
I do understand that. And web-based homeschool is better than parental homeschool. But you know what's better than both of them? Real school.
Why?
In all honesty I think that traditional school is better than web-based homeschool because life is full of situations that you don't get to control. I don't get to work from home just because I like my house better than my office. I don't get to skip around from topic to topic because I'd rather do this than that. Adults don't (always) set their own schedule. They don't always like where they're going. And they don't always like what they're doing. In at least a small way, school prepares you for that.
Socially, it's a place to make friends. It's a place to make enemies and learn how to deal with them. It's a place to be exposed to new things. How does one attend drafting, choir, or metal shop via web-based homeschool? School is a big part of growing up. Kids need to be more places in the day than their home, and they need to be with more people in the day than their parents.
jclast on
0
Options
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
I just find it tragic that people who dislike homeschooling for pretty generic reasons on this forum (eg done by fundies which is often true) have swallowed a bunch of other terribly homogenising bullshit rationalisations because they support their point of view without realising how utterly opposed those opinions are to their normally extremely live and let live social philosophies.
I've long been on the fence about homeschooling. The idea appeals to me - largely because I had some pretty major problems adjusting to high school myself, I'm not terribly enamored with the idea of fencing kids in an overcrowded institution where they're subjected to a rigid daily regime (and subjected to each other). But homeschooling seems to be primarily the domain of religious wackos and newage hippies who for different respective reasons mostly just want to opt-out of mainstream fact-based education and substitute in their own mythological fantasies.
I don't know whether your characterization of homeschooling is correct, but does it really matter? Even if you don't like the reasons other people might homeschool, that shouldn't really make a difference as to whether homeschooling would or would not work for you.
That program in your OP sounds pretty cool, though. I can see it working well for kids who want to learn but don't do well in a traditional school enviornment.
I resent your characterization of homeschoolers Feral, but I do think that this is a good idea; this is the digital age, why not embrace it?
Because no matter how digital we get the vast majority of people work in places that aren't their home, have coworkers who aren't their Mom, and sometimes have to do things that aren't their favorite.
Sure but the idea is that you have a choice in what job you take. If you seriously cannot deal with a 9-5 because your rhythm just doesn't work with it you can get a job that fits you better. There's no reason to deny education simply because not all jobs will be as accomodating.
I agree. Everybody deserves an education. "I don't like going to school" or "The kids are mean to me" though, shouldn't be good enough reasons to disenroll from traditional school.
jclast you do realize that it is possible to learn social interactions outside of the framework of the school environment, and that these online classes still have deadlines and authority figures, correct?
I do understand that. And web-based homeschool is better than parental homeschool. But you know what's better than both of them? Real school.
this is a complete generalization and you cannot prove that it's true even 75% of the time
you are making a huge sweeping value judgement about something with, I'm guessing, no solid numbers or cites
however I would love to be proven wrong!
And I would love to prove it to you, but I've never seen a study that talks about how well homeschooled students do in the real world. I'd love to see that they're just as employable and their public and private school counterparts. I'd love to see that they make just as much money. I'd absolutely love to be wrong about homeschool, and I sincerely hope that I've been unlucky and only met homeschool kids whose parents aren't doing it right (which makes me very sad as I'm sure my neighbor's kid could be very smart, but as is he's a pretty dim bulb unless you want him to read you a thing while quietly sitting in the living room).
You're right though. I made a value judgment about home-schooling. I don't like it, and I think it sets kids back unless very specific criteria are met which are completely out of the child's control. At least with public school you can be guaranteed that you child is being taught on a reviewed and approved curriculum. You want to be involved in your child's education? Marry the 2 concepts together. Send them to school to be taught by trained professionals and then be involved when they come home. More learning never hurt anybody.
I completely agree with your idea of marrying the two concepts. However I do think there is humongous amounts of wasted time and effort in public schools and I think if the parents are willing AND ABLE (by this I mean educated), then why not involve them more? It cuts down on school costs, time, effort, everything - it's a win-win situation.
And like I said, just require testing to determine whether the kid is falling behind. If he is, he goes back to school. If not, continue homeschooling. It's that simple. If you really want to make sure things are good, require testing for the parents as well.
From the point of view of how homeschooled kids do: Ok here's some anecdotes. I'm currently sitting on a bachelor's degree in chemical engineering from a very nice private university, and I'm making a very good salary from a big company. So I did well. My little sister graduated a few months ago from the same university with a degree in psychology and minors in German and Russian, and she has a job in Philly and is doing very well. A guy who went to the same university with me was homeschooled through high school (yikes!) and is very well socially adjusted. He's got a job in LA with Raytheon? (I think) and is taking night classes to get his MBA, just got engaged to a wonderful amazing USC grad student and they are getting married next summer. A guy who was in my little homeschooling group as a kid actually went to Harvard and (I think, because I didn't stay in touch, I'm facebook friends with him but he doesn't update it much) did computer science/engineering? And is in grad school now. Another kid went to a public college in state and is now studying to be a dentist. They're all perfectly normal people and have had a pretty high rate of success. That said, a lot of the parents in this group were very serious about homeschooling their kids and were doing it because they honestly wanted their kids to learn more. It wasn't for religious fundy reasons.
I just find it tragic that people who dislike homeschooling for pretty generic reasons on this forum (eg done by fundies which is often true) have swallowed a bunch of other terribly homogenising bullshit rationalisations because they support their point of view without realising how utterly opposed those opinions are to their normally extremely live and let live social philosophies.
I suppose I'd like it better if I trusted most parents to be devoted enough to make it work. As is, and with the homeschool kids that I've met, it's a good idea that doesn't work well enough in practice for me to recommend it to anybody.
You want to make decisions that will negatively impact your life? Fine. Do what you want. You're an adult. As soon as those decisions affect a child though, the state needs to be knocking down your door. My neighbor's son doesn't know he's receiving a sub-par education. All he ever hears is how smart he is when he's never written a book report, filled out a math worksheet, taken a spelling test, or been instructed in the hands-on creation of a baking soda volcano.
jclast you do realize that it is possible to learn social interactions outside of the framework of the school environment, and that these online classes still have deadlines and authority figures, correct?
I do understand that. And web-based homeschool is better than parental homeschool. But you know what's better than both of them? Real school.
Why?
In all honesty I think that traditional school is better than web-based homeschool because life is full of situations that you don't get to control. I don't get to work from home just because I like my house better than my office. I don't get to skip around from topic to topic because I'd rather do this than that. Adults don't (always) set their own schedule. They don't always like where they're going. And they don't always like what they're doing. In at least a small way, school prepares you for that.
Socially, it's a place to make friends. It's a place to make enemies and learn how to deal with them. It's a place to be exposed to new things. How does one attend drafting, choir, or metal shop via web-based homeschool? School is a big part of growing up. Kids need to be more places in the day than their home, and they need to be with more people in the day than their parents.
Life is still full of situations you can or cannot control, outside of school. School is simply a homogenizing experience; everyone goes through it, so everyone gets the same benefit - or lack thereof - from attending. It's not like homeschooling or web-based schooling comes attached with a requirement that you must stay inside and avoid all interactions with other kids. Homeschoolers can still go outside! It's the best kept secret of homeschooling, but there it is! Bet you didn't know!
Also, a kid is going to get involved in extracurricular activities, and they are going to meet people, if they want to. If they don't want to, it doesn't matter whether they're in school or not, they're going to be that way; if they DO want to, then they will seek it out while they are being homeschooled or webschooled. School is simply the most obvious and ubiquitous place where you can do this. Like I said, homeschool programs and groups are extremely common now. Also, there are plenty of city recreational activities. And lastly, many schools - even my podunk backwater school system - are allowing homeschoolers to participate in extracurricular activities.
Spacemilk on
0
Options
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
You want to make decisions that will negatively impact your life? Fine. Do what you want. You're an adult. As soon as those decisions affect a child though, the state needs to be knocking down your door. My neighbor's son doesn't know he's receiving a sub-par education. All he ever hears is how smart he is when he's never written a book report, filled out a math worksheet, taken a spelling test, or been instructed in the hands-on creation of a baking soda volcano.
And I completely agree with that (the child's welfare MUST be taken into account) - I was more referring to the "waking up on time" thing from page 1.
Spacemilk is handling my points much more eloquently than I could. I leave this in your capable hands, my friend, as everything you have written is almost verbatim my views on the subject, corrected only inasmuch as it pertains to my personal situation.
I think that, in regards the the whole sleeping thing, if people really have that hard of a time waking up and getting stuff done, then why are business hours so early?
Plus, don't people normally work 9 - 5? I know when I went to highschool classes started at around 7 I think. Maybe 7:15.
JebusUD on
and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
but they're listening to every word I say
I think that, in regards the the whole sleeping thing, if people really have that hard of a time waking up and getting stuff done, then why are business hours so early?
Plus, don't people normally work 9 - 5? I know when I went to highschool classes started at around 7 I think. Maybe 7:15.
Some people just have a different rhythm. This is DSP.
Teenagers are known to need more sleep, and nobody cool goes to bed at 8:00 PM.
jclast on
0
Options
firewaterwordSatchitanandaPais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered Userregular
edited August 2010
So with the disclaimer that I had a fantastic time in high school, and realize that's not the case for everyone here, I don't really know how the experience of learning from a flesh-and-blood teacher, face to face, can be replicated online or at home. Also, having peers ask questions that wouldn't occur to you, and the discussions that can occur would seem pretty valuable.
I guess that chat rooms and video conferencing could provide a possibly passable replacement, but I'm not sold. But, again, I was extremely fortunate to have amazing teachers in a great environment, so I get that teacher/peer quality a relative thing.
firewaterword on
Lokah Samastah Sukhino Bhavantu
0
Options
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited August 2010
Man, I hate the 'Kids need to learn how to socialize in high school' argument.
The point of a learning facility isn't to provide a social setting for kids, it's there to educate kids with the most up to day education.
You want your kids to socialize? There's plenty of venues for such things outside of the classroom. If your kid priority in school is to be 'cool', then your kid is missing the freaking point.
On the same token, one of the biggest disservice your can do for a child to give them a shitty education. If your only purpose in homeschooling a child is to make sure they believe that God gave mankind bolt action Remington rifles to fight dinosaurs and kill homosexuals, you need your kids taking away.
Man, I hate the 'Kids need to learn how to socialize in high school' argument.
The point of a learning facility isn't to provide a social setting for kids, it's there to educate kids with the most up to day education.
You want your kids to socialize? There's plenty of venues for such things outside of the classroom. If your kid priority in school is to be 'cool', then your kid is missing the freaking point.
Man, I hate the 'Kids need to learn how to socialize in high school' argument.
The point of a learning facility isn't to provide a social setting for kids, it's there to educate kids with the most up to day education.
You want your kids to socialize? There's plenty of venues for such things outside of the classroom. If your kid priority in school is to be 'cool', then your kid is missing the freaking point.
The purpose of school is beyond what you're reading in textbooks. That you deny this is odd.
Styrofoam Sammich on
0
Options
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
Man, I hate the 'Kids need to learn how to socialize in high school' argument.
The point of a learning facility isn't to provide a social setting for kids, it's there to educate kids with the most up to day education.
You want your kids to socialize? There's plenty of venues for such things outside of the classroom. If your kid priority in school is to be 'cool', then your kid is missing the freaking point.
The purpose of school is beyond what you're reading in textbooks. That you deny this is odd.
Man, I hate the 'Kids need to learn how to socialize in high school' argument.
The point of a learning facility isn't to provide a social setting for kids, it's there to educate kids with the most up to day education.
You want your kids to socialize? There's plenty of venues for such things outside of the classroom. If your kid priority in school is to be 'cool', then your kid is missing the freaking point.
On the same token, one of the biggest disservice your can do for a child to give them a shitty education. If your only purpose in homeschooling a child is to make sure they believe that God gave mankind bolt action Remington rifles to fight dinosaurs and kill homosexuals, you need your kids taking away.
That's not what I (can't speak for everybody else) mean when I say that school presents and opportunity to socialize. I mean that it presents and opportunity to develop and hone social skills. You interact with non-parental authority differently than parental authority. You get put into teams with kids you don't like and still have to do the assignment. Stuff like that.
I think that, in regards the the whole sleeping thing, if people really have that hard of a time waking up and getting stuff done, then why are business hours so early?
Plus, don't people normally work 9 - 5? I know when I went to highschool classes started at around 7 I think. Maybe 7:15.
Some people just have a different rhythm. This is DSP.
Teenagers are known to need more sleep, and nobody cool goes to bed at 8:00 PM.
Yeah, what I am saying is that maybe we need highschool to be later in the day. and maybe business hours should be later. Not everyone should have to be up at the crack of dawn because most people aren't out farming every day.
JebusUD on
and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
but they're listening to every word I say
0
Options
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
Man, I hate the 'Kids need to learn how to socialize in high school' argument.
The point of a learning facility isn't to provide a social setting for kids, it's there to educate kids with the most up to day education.
You want your kids to socialize? There's plenty of venues for such things outside of the classroom. If your kid priority in school is to be 'cool', then your kid is missing the freaking point.
On the same token, one of the biggest disservice your can do for a child to give them a shitty education. If your only purpose in homeschooling a child is to make sure they believe that God gave mankind bolt action Remington rifles to fight dinosaurs and kill homosexuals, you need your kids taking away.
That's not what I (can't speak for everybody else) mean when I say that school presents and opportunity to socialize. I mean that it presents and opportunity to develop and hone social skills. You interact with non-parental authority differently than parental authority. You get put into teams with kids you don't like and still have to do the assignment. Stuff like that.
I will argue that they'll get more oppertunities, and better experiences, of those social skills in places like 'Summer Camp' and whatnot.
Man, I hate the 'Kids need to learn how to socialize in high school' argument.
The point of a learning facility isn't to provide a social setting for kids, it's there to educate kids with the most up to day education.
You want your kids to socialize? There's plenty of venues for such things outside of the classroom. If your kid priority in school is to be 'cool', then your kid is missing the freaking point.
On the same token, one of the biggest disservice your can do for a child to give them a shitty education. If your only purpose in homeschooling a child is to make sure they believe that God gave mankind bolt action Remington rifles to fight dinosaurs and kill homosexuals, you need your kids taking away.
That's not what I (can't speak for everybody else) mean when I say that school presents and opportunity to socialize. I mean that it presents and opportunity to develop and hone social skills. You interact with non-parental authority differently than parental authority. You get put into teams with kids you don't like and still have to do the assignment. Stuff like that.
I will argue that they'll get more oppertunities, and better experiences, of those social skills in places like 'Summer Camp' and whatnot.
By time alone I'd say that public school is better for it. You're working with teachers (non-parental authority) 5 days a week in traditional school for 9 months out of the year. You're working with counselors at summer camp for a reduced portion of the summer at camp.
Posts
Because no matter how digital we get the vast majority of people work in places that aren't their home, have coworkers who aren't their Mom, and sometimes have to do things that aren't their favorite.
I wish I could color at work. The closest I get is doing Picross puzzles over lunch.
Graphic artist, I get paid to color.
Yeah, it was a snarky characterization.
I don't have a problem with homeschooling as long as the education remains fact-based. Which I'm sure many or most homeschool curricula are. But in some states there's no mandate that it needs to be that way, or if it is, there's little to no enforcement - you can teach Creationism or ID or Raelianism or whatever you want.
It's not so much that I think that most homeschoolers are crazy. I don't. It's more that I recognize that a significant minority are crazy, and that offering a public online program is a way of providing people the benefits of homeschooling without sanctioning the crazy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
This is the end. This is why I see this as a 'good thing'.
I'm not talented enough for that. I need lines and a box of crayons. My creativity comes out when I get a programming task to do.
Actually, I am extremely polite. I don't think I ever had a teacher who didn't like me, despite also not having a lot of teachers that didn't complain about me.
If I were to be characterized as anything, I think I'd prefer 'a bundle of pointy-ness.'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYM-B9jAflM&feature=player_embedded
I was lucky; my father was as good with science as any of my science teachers (they were all friends anyhow) and considerably better at philosophy than my religious studies teachers (that's right, catholic education,) and my mother was a teacher. But I wasn't homeschooled, and I agree that most parents simply don't have what it takes to provide a comprehensive education.
That said, I'm not against homeschooling because I'm sure some parents do have what it takes. But I think homeschooled kids need to be given standardized tests in a controlled environment to verify that they're getting an education.
I had to make a website in html and css the other week. Took me 4 fucking days.
I was homeschooled as a kid - 4th grade to 8th grade. My little sis (2 years younger) started homeschooling at the same time as me, but my mother let her return to middle school for 8th grade. Let me just say, missing middle school was easily the best thing in my life. You think kids need "socialization"? How about the fact that the school had to hold an intervention for my little sister's 8th grade class because the girls were so mean, one girl attempted suicide and two more were attending counseling to prevent this? Boy, I sure am glad she got that kind of socialization! Sure, that's purely anecdotal, but as someone who never experienced it but heard plenty of people refer to it with horror, I am SO GLAD I missed out. This is all purely anecdotal but honestly, did you all have perfect school experiences? Surely some of you experienced the bullying and generally shitty behavior that homeschoolers miss out on?
Don't get me wrong, there are outliers in the homeschooling group - I've met plenty of the socially inept, gun-toting, Bible-quoting homeschooled kids whose parents homeschooled their kids because they weren't "getting enough Jesus".
On the other hand, my dad is a high school teacher (teaches calculus, certified to teach chemistry and physics but doesn't do this because he works part time as their network admin) and my mother was an accountant who went back to school to get a teaching degree before she started homeschooling us. So I definitely lucked out. We were way, way ahead of kids our age when we started high school.
Honestly, in a well-run home, homeschooling is absolutely amazing. You have time to teach your kids so much more, since no time is wasted. You can teach to your kid's level, instead of expecting them to play catch-up in areas where they are weak (which, in a school setting, can also detrimentally affect your kid's confidence if they "don't get" something that everyone else grasps) or hold them back in areas where they are strong. To a certain extent, my little sister and I learned to teach ourselves - we got to the point where we would rather just read the textbook and ask our mom questions, instead of walk through it with her (which was soooo boring and a total waste of time, thought the 4th grade me). You have time to encourage your kid's interests, to take fun field trips, etc.
However, I don't think kids should ever go through high school being homeschooled. It works out way too rarely. And the parents need to really know their stuff. My dad could've helped my sister and I through it, but I know my mother wasn't at all confident about teaching us that stuff. I DO think that homeschooling, up to 8th grade, is good if the parents are well-educated; and even then a kid can be homeschooled up to at least 4th or 5th grade and still come out way ahead.
The ONLY way that homeschooling is weaker is through its lack of rigorous testing and standards. I personally think homeschooled kids should be tested every year, and if they are behind in a subject, they should be required to attend summer school or, if they are egregiously behind, should be required to enroll back in school. If the parents wish to homeschool their kids, they should be required to take certifications which prove they understand and are capable of teaching the material. They should also be required to take some classes on how to teach.
edit: totes forgot: Socialization. Uhh yeah there was actually a homeschooling group in our county. (which, by the way, had a population of 13k people - yes that's the whole county - and we had a group of about 30 or 40 kids. I can imagine how much bigger it'd be in a more populated area. so as long as the parents join one of these groups, it's really not a problem to provide socialization) Also our town provided summer rec stuff. And the local schools were beginning to adjust to the new "homeschooling fad" when I got into high school, and were beginning to allow homeschoolers to participate in afterschool programs and sports and stuff.
I do understand that. And web-based homeschool is better than parental homeschool. But you know what's better than both of them? Real school.
Now you're just being insensitive. I bet you want to take away wheelchairs too, comrade.
you are making a huge sweeping value judgement about something with, I'm guessing, no solid numbers or cites
however I would love to be proven wrong!
The problem I have, I guess, is what the parent(s) are also homeschooling someone on (I really don't need them to be learning about Intelligent Gestation Theory). In my state we've had a few homeschoolers that were totally religious based. The fact that we had a 20 year hold here debating whether the earth was the center of the universe (seriously) is what scares me. But then again, with that dentist in Texas, I'm sure we'll get away from fact based studies soon enough.
Why?
And I would love to prove it to you, but I've never seen a study that talks about how well homeschooled students do in the real world. I'd love to see that they're just as employable as their public and private school counterparts. I'd love to see that they make just as much money. I'd absolutely love to be wrong about homeschool, and I sincerely hope that I've been unlucky and only met homeschool kids whose parents aren't doing it right (which makes me very sad as I'm sure my neighbor's kid could be very smart, but as is he's a pretty dim bulb unless you want him to read something while quietly sitting in the living room).
You're right though. I made a value judgment about home-schooling. I don't like it, and I think it sets kids back unless very specific criteria are met which are completely out of the child's control. At least with public school you can be guaranteed that you child is being taught on a reviewed and approved curriculum. You want to be involved in your child's education? Marry the 2 concepts together. Send them to school to be taught by trained professionals and then be involved when they come home. More learning never hurt anybody.
then prove it?
Sure but the idea is that you have a choice in what job you take. If you seriously cannot deal with a 9-5 because your rhythm just doesn't work with it you can get a job that fits you better. There's no reason to deny education simply because not all jobs will be as accomodating.
In all honesty I think that traditional school is better than web-based homeschool because life is full of situations that you don't get to control. I don't get to work from home just because I like my house better than my office. I don't get to skip around from topic to topic because I'd rather do this than that. Adults don't (always) set their own schedule. They don't always like where they're going. And they don't always like what they're doing. In at least a small way, school prepares you for that.
Socially, it's a place to make friends. It's a place to make enemies and learn how to deal with them. It's a place to be exposed to new things. How does one attend drafting, choir, or metal shop via web-based homeschool? School is a big part of growing up. Kids need to be more places in the day than their home, and they need to be with more people in the day than their parents.
What's better- being homeschooled by a devoted parent or going to a school in inner-city Detroit?
Rigorous Scholarship
I agree. Everybody deserves an education. "I don't like going to school" or "The kids are mean to me" though, shouldn't be good enough reasons to disenroll from traditional school.
And like I said, just require testing to determine whether the kid is falling behind. If he is, he goes back to school. If not, continue homeschooling. It's that simple. If you really want to make sure things are good, require testing for the parents as well.
From the point of view of how homeschooled kids do: Ok here's some anecdotes. I'm currently sitting on a bachelor's degree in chemical engineering from a very nice private university, and I'm making a very good salary from a big company. So I did well. My little sister graduated a few months ago from the same university with a degree in psychology and minors in German and Russian, and she has a job in Philly and is doing very well. A guy who went to the same university with me was homeschooled through high school (yikes!) and is very well socially adjusted. He's got a job in LA with Raytheon? (I think) and is taking night classes to get his MBA, just got engaged to a wonderful amazing USC grad student and they are getting married next summer. A guy who was in my little homeschooling group as a kid actually went to Harvard and (I think, because I didn't stay in touch, I'm facebook friends with him but he doesn't update it much) did computer science/engineering? And is in grad school now. Another kid went to a public college in state and is now studying to be a dentist. They're all perfectly normal people and have had a pretty high rate of success. That said, a lot of the parents in this group were very serious about homeschooling their kids and were doing it because they honestly wanted their kids to learn more. It wasn't for religious fundy reasons.
I suppose I'd like it better if I trusted most parents to be devoted enough to make it work. As is, and with the homeschool kids that I've met, it's a good idea that doesn't work well enough in practice for me to recommend it to anybody.
You want to make decisions that will negatively impact your life? Fine. Do what you want. You're an adult. As soon as those decisions affect a child though, the state needs to be knocking down your door. My neighbor's son doesn't know he's receiving a sub-par education. All he ever hears is how smart he is when he's never written a book report, filled out a math worksheet, taken a spelling test, or been instructed in the hands-on creation of a baking soda volcano.
Also, a kid is going to get involved in extracurricular activities, and they are going to meet people, if they want to. If they don't want to, it doesn't matter whether they're in school or not, they're going to be that way; if they DO want to, then they will seek it out while they are being homeschooled or webschooled. School is simply the most obvious and ubiquitous place where you can do this. Like I said, homeschool programs and groups are extremely common now. Also, there are plenty of city recreational activities. And lastly, many schools - even my podunk backwater school system - are allowing homeschoolers to participate in extracurricular activities.
And I completely agree with that (the child's welfare MUST be taken into account) - I was more referring to the "waking up on time" thing from page 1.
Plus, don't people normally work 9 - 5? I know when I went to highschool classes started at around 7 I think. Maybe 7:15.
but they're listening to every word I say
Some people just have a different rhythm. This is DSP.
Teenagers are known to need more sleep, and nobody cool goes to bed at 8:00 PM.
I guess that chat rooms and video conferencing could provide a possibly passable replacement, but I'm not sold. But, again, I was extremely fortunate to have amazing teachers in a great environment, so I get that teacher/peer quality a relative thing.
The point of a learning facility isn't to provide a social setting for kids, it's there to educate kids with the most up to day education.
You want your kids to socialize? There's plenty of venues for such things outside of the classroom. If your kid priority in school is to be 'cool', then your kid is missing the freaking point.
On the same token, one of the biggest disservice your can do for a child to give them a shitty education. If your only purpose in homeschooling a child is to make sure they believe that God gave mankind bolt action Remington rifles to fight dinosaurs and kill homosexuals, you need your kids taking away.
The purpose of school is beyond what you're reading in textbooks. That you deny this is odd.
So what you're saying is....?
That's not what I (can't speak for everybody else) mean when I say that school presents and opportunity to socialize. I mean that it presents and opportunity to develop and hone social skills. You interact with non-parental authority differently than parental authority. You get put into teams with kids you don't like and still have to do the assignment. Stuff like that.
Yeah, what I am saying is that maybe we need highschool to be later in the day. and maybe business hours should be later. Not everyone should have to be up at the crack of dawn because most people aren't out farming every day.
but they're listening to every word I say
I will argue that they'll get more oppertunities, and better experiences, of those social skills in places like 'Summer Camp' and whatnot.
By time alone I'd say that public school is better for it. You're working with teachers (non-parental authority) 5 days a week in traditional school for 9 months out of the year. You're working with counselors at summer camp for a reduced portion of the summer at camp.