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Online high school - homeschooling that doesn't suck?

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    Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Yet 51% of Americans believed that Humans were created by God.

    Yeah, public education is really doing its job....
    It's not public school's job to take a position on the existence or non-existence of God.

    Part of the reason many people homeschool is because of their feeling that the culture of public schools is hostile to their beliefs and values. The whole issue of creationism versus evolution is just a part of this. Other things, such as the relative acceptance of homosexuality, perceptions that history is being taught in a revisionist manner and the feeling that religious belief is discouraged, all lead parents to conclude that homeschooling is needed to raise their kids in line with the parents' preferred moral and religious beliefs.

    I don't agree with their views on this, but I support their right to homeschool if they feel the public schools are a negative environment.
    So long as they're actually receiving an education.
    Of course. But I haven't seen any concrete evidence that homeschooling leads to worse academic results than public schools.

    This is all I've found, can't search too long as I'm at work

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Criticism_of_supportive_achievement_studies

    In otherwords, mixed results, and neither side can say definitively. Given the importance of getting a good education, I would think standards a good idea.

    Mixed results?

    Man, don't you read your links?
    Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[92] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[93]

    Casually Hardcore on
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Yet 51% of Americans believed that Humans were created by God.

    Yeah, public education is really doing its job....
    It's not public school's job to take a position on the existence or non-existence of God.

    Part of the reason many people homeschool is because of their feeling that the culture of public schools is hostile to their beliefs and values. The whole issue of creationism versus evolution is just a part of this. Other things, such as the relative acceptance of homosexuality, perceptions that history is being taught in a revisionist manner and the feeling that religious belief is discouraged, all lead parents to conclude that homeschooling is needed to raise their kids in line with the parents' preferred moral and religious beliefs.

    I don't agree with their views on this, but I support their right to homeschool if they feel the public schools are a negative environment.
    So long as they're actually receiving an education.
    Of course. But I haven't seen any concrete evidence that homeschooling leads to worse academic results than public schools.

    This is all I've found, can't search too long as I'm at work

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Criticism_of_supportive_achievement_studies

    In otherwords, mixed results, and neither side can say definitively. Given the importance of getting a good education, I would think standards a good idea.

    Mixed results?

    Man, don't you read your links?
    Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[92] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[93]

    Of the students who took the exams. There are 3 homeschool households in my neighborhood that I know of. None of them take the tests. Of course parents who are well-equipped and into their kids education and teach them the curriculum do well on the tests. It's the fuckwits who don't make Billy do math because he doesn't like it that really worry me.

    jclast on
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    KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I used to be very pro-home school. In elementary school I regularly begged my mom to home school me because I was bored.

    Then my best friend started working for these people: http://www.learningbygrace.org/ and it made me very scared of some of what is going on out there in the home schooling world. I really think the spectrum out there among home schooled kids/parents is at least as broad as the spectrum of public schools. Yes, you have the motivated parents and kids that are working together and achieving amazing things and you also have the parents that are trying to keep their kids away from "evil" influences and only want to pay for 8 months of the school year because they are going to be raptured on April 23rd so they won't get to use that 9th month. And since they are being raptured before the next state assessment can't they just sign up for whatever classes they think will improve little Billy's character and ignore the ones that wont be useful after the rapture. Yes, that was an actual family my friend had to talk to.

    Kistra on
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    Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    jclast wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Yet 51% of Americans believed that Humans were created by God.

    Yeah, public education is really doing its job....
    It's not public school's job to take a position on the existence or non-existence of God.

    Part of the reason many people homeschool is because of their feeling that the culture of public schools is hostile to their beliefs and values. The whole issue of creationism versus evolution is just a part of this. Other things, such as the relative acceptance of homosexuality, perceptions that history is being taught in a revisionist manner and the feeling that religious belief is discouraged, all lead parents to conclude that homeschooling is needed to raise their kids in line with the parents' preferred moral and religious beliefs.

    I don't agree with their views on this, but I support their right to homeschool if they feel the public schools are a negative environment.
    So long as they're actually receiving an education.
    Of course. But I haven't seen any concrete evidence that homeschooling leads to worse academic results than public schools.

    This is all I've found, can't search too long as I'm at work

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Criticism_of_supportive_achievement_studies

    In otherwords, mixed results, and neither side can say definitively. Given the importance of getting a good education, I would think standards a good idea.

    Mixed results?

    Man, don't you read your links?
    Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[92] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[93]

    Of the students who took the exams. There are 3 homeschool households in my neighborhood that I know of. None of them take the tests. Of course parents who are well-equipped and into their kids education and teach them the curriculum do well on the tests. It's the fuckwits who don't make Billy do math because he doesn't like it that really worry me.

    Blah blah blah....

    There are people in public education who continue to pass classes, even though they have no clue on what's going on.

    Casually Hardcore on
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    agentk13agentk13 __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2010
    jclast wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Yet 51% of Americans believed that Humans were created by God.

    Yeah, public education is really doing its job....
    It's not public school's job to take a position on the existence or non-existence of God.

    Part of the reason many people homeschool is because of their feeling that the culture of public schools is hostile to their beliefs and values. The whole issue of creationism versus evolution is just a part of this. Other things, such as the relative acceptance of homosexuality, perceptions that history is being taught in a revisionist manner and the feeling that religious belief is discouraged, all lead parents to conclude that homeschooling is needed to raise their kids in line with the parents' preferred moral and religious beliefs.

    I don't agree with their views on this, but I support their right to homeschool if they feel the public schools are a negative environment.
    So long as they're actually receiving an education.
    Of course. But I haven't seen any concrete evidence that homeschooling leads to worse academic results than public schools.

    This is all I've found, can't search too long as I'm at work

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Criticism_of_supportive_achievement_studies

    In otherwords, mixed results, and neither side can say definitively. Given the importance of getting a good education, I would think standards a good idea.

    Mixed results?

    Man, don't you read your links?
    Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[92] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[93]

    Of the students who took the exams. There are 3 homeschool households in my neighborhood that I know of. None of them take the tests. Of course parents who are well-equipped and into their kids education and teach them the curriculum do well on the tests. It's the fuckwits who don't make Billy do math because he doesn't like it that really worry me.

    Blah blah blah....

    There are people in public education who continue to pass classes, even though they have no clue on what's going on.

    How, exactly, is that a good response to allegations of selection bias?

    agentk13 on
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    Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    agentk13 wrote: »
    jclast wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Yet 51% of Americans believed that Humans were created by God.

    Yeah, public education is really doing its job....
    It's not public school's job to take a position on the existence or non-existence of God.

    Part of the reason many people homeschool is because of their feeling that the culture of public schools is hostile to their beliefs and values. The whole issue of creationism versus evolution is just a part of this. Other things, such as the relative acceptance of homosexuality, perceptions that history is being taught in a revisionist manner and the feeling that religious belief is discouraged, all lead parents to conclude that homeschooling is needed to raise their kids in line with the parents' preferred moral and religious beliefs.

    I don't agree with their views on this, but I support their right to homeschool if they feel the public schools are a negative environment.
    So long as they're actually receiving an education.
    Of course. But I haven't seen any concrete evidence that homeschooling leads to worse academic results than public schools.

    This is all I've found, can't search too long as I'm at work

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Criticism_of_supportive_achievement_studies

    In otherwords, mixed results, and neither side can say definitively. Given the importance of getting a good education, I would think standards a good idea.

    Mixed results?

    Man, don't you read your links?
    Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[92] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[93]

    Of the students who took the exams. There are 3 homeschool households in my neighborhood that I know of. None of them take the tests. Of course parents who are well-equipped and into their kids education and teach them the curriculum do well on the tests. It's the fuckwits who don't make Billy do math because he doesn't like it that really worry me.

    Blah blah blah....

    There are people in public education who continue to pass classes, even though they have no clue on what's going on.

    How, exactly, is that a good response to allegations of selection bias?

    How is anecdotal envidence a good response to sourced evidence?

    Show me something that says home school kids are more poorly educated then publicly school kids.

    Casually Hardcore on
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    KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    agentk13 wrote: »
    jclast wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Yet 51% of Americans believed that Humans were created by God.

    Yeah, public education is really doing its job....
    It's not public school's job to take a position on the existence or non-existence of God.

    Part of the reason many people homeschool is because of their feeling that the culture of public schools is hostile to their beliefs and values. The whole issue of creationism versus evolution is just a part of this. Other things, such as the relative acceptance of homosexuality, perceptions that history is being taught in a revisionist manner and the feeling that religious belief is discouraged, all lead parents to conclude that homeschooling is needed to raise their kids in line with the parents' preferred moral and religious beliefs.

    I don't agree with their views on this, but I support their right to homeschool if they feel the public schools are a negative environment.
    So long as they're actually receiving an education.
    Of course. But I haven't seen any concrete evidence that homeschooling leads to worse academic results than public schools.

    This is all I've found, can't search too long as I'm at work

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Criticism_of_supportive_achievement_studies

    In otherwords, mixed results, and neither side can say definitively. Given the importance of getting a good education, I would think standards a good idea.

    Mixed results?

    Man, don't you read your links?
    Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[92] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[93]

    Of the students who took the exams. There are 3 homeschool households in my neighborhood that I know of. None of them take the tests. Of course parents who are well-equipped and into their kids education and teach them the curriculum do well on the tests. It's the fuckwits who don't make Billy do math because he doesn't like it that really worry me.

    Blah blah blah....

    There are people in public education who continue to pass classes, even though they have no clue on what's going on.

    How, exactly, is that a good response to allegations of selection bias?
    How is anecdotal envidence a good response to sourced evidence?

    Show me something that says home school kids are more poorly educated then publicly school kids.
    Why is there a default assumption that public school kids are poorly educated?

    The way you are asking the question is rather biased. Why not just ask for evidence comparing the outcome of all home schooled kids with all publicly schooled kids. And questioning the methodology of a study is a proper way to debate the weight that should be given to it.

    Kistra on
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    Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    One of the main reasons home-schoolers do better academically than their public school counterparts is because they have parents who are highly engaged in their education. Someone who has decided to pull their kids out of school and teach them at home at least gives a shit about their children's education. That's not a given in public school. So, yeah, there is a strong selection bias in the sample of homeschoolers.

    But the self-selecting nature of homeschooling is kind of the point. Homeschooling parents believe that they can give a better education to their kids than public school teachers. For the most part, their belief seems to be correct.

    Modern Man on
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    KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    One of the main reasons home-schoolers do better academically than their public school counterparts is because they have parents who are highly engaged in their education. Someone who has decided to pull their kids out of school and teach them at home at least gives a shit about their children's education. That's not a given in public school. So, yeah, there is a strong selection bias in the sample of homeschoolers.

    But the self-selecting nature of homeschooling is kind of the point. Homeschooling parents believe that they can give a better education to their kids than public school teachers. For the most part, their belief seems to be correct.

    I would guess that many of the parents that are involved enough to be developing their own curriculum are in the group you are describing.

    The ones that use these academies vary greatly in terms of how involved they are. Some are wonderful and involved and checking on their kids work and logging their study hours. And then there are parents out there leaving a 5 year old in a room with a computer and checking in on them every 2-3 hours. Not every parent involved in home schooling is highly involved. Not every parent is objective when grading their kid's work.

    Kistra on
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    CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I don't know about the rest of you but at some point I figure every student needs to come to the following conclusion if they are going to get anything substantial out of any educational course irregardless if it be from homeschooling, distance education, public schooling, private schooling, college, university, or tutored courses: The student has to take responsibility for getting the most out of their education that will be applicable to their own lives. Essentially, realizing the benefits of being self-taught.

    In my own experience, those coming from home schooled educations are from those whose parents are well off financially and education wise. They seem to be very entrepreneurial and develop their own opportunities, where as the vast majority I know from the public school seem to either work in as a wage slave of some sort, be it factory, retail, or service industry if they are unable to afford college / university. It seems to me from what I have observed the home schooled seem to learn that particular lesson about taking responsibility for their own learning a bit sooner and bit more often.

    Distance education in general benefits from the adoption of better technologies, it used to be just by mail and more likely in areas with local populations of children in numbers too small to support a publicly funded school, so their options usually end up either home school, distance education, a mix, transporting children half a day to another district or moving to a new community (further exacerbating the problem for the community they leave and which may not be an option in terms of gainful employment).

    CanadianWolverine on
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    MumblyfishMumblyfish Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    How is anecdotal envidence a good response to sourced evidence?
    I don't consider the National Home Education Research Institute to be a worthy source of information. A cursory glance at its website displays a clear bias in favour of home schooling. It is a for-profit organisation that sells home schooling materials and books for parents considering home schooling. It appears to be linked with other organisations that profit from home schooling. I can not find a single negative word about home schooling in its freely available materials. On top of that, I can't shake the feeling that it has "family friendly" (religious) motivations.

    Personally, while I am certain that a great many well-adjusted, highly educated children have come from home schooled households - and as someone who is very much aware of the failings of the current public schooling system - I'm against home schooling because of issues of accountability.

    We can ensure that children receive a good standard of education in schools, because schools can be inspected regularly. We can ensure that they are being taught by those who know the subject, because professional teachers must be qualified. Children in a public school setting can be supervised, watched for signs of abuse or neglect, and provided with those qualified to help in such situations. And - I have to disagree with a lot of people here - there is nothing quite like the social network a school provides.

    Because investigating every home schooled household is an absolute impossibility, we can't make sure that a child receives a good education, as is their right. All we really have to go on is exam results, and in the absence of other information, exam results are absolutely worthless for determining quality of education. Little Timmy is home schooled; Timmy gets straight D's in his exams. Is Timmy capable of so much more, but being held back by a sub-par education, or is Timmy a bit of a dim bulb and doing the best that could be expected of him? Given no further information, who can say?

    Mumblyfish on
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    Crimson KingCrimson King Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I'm of the opinion that learning social skills is probably the most important thing that comes out of a high school education, and I do find it hard to see how homeschooling can match this. You spend, in high school, thirty hours a week having to interact with hundreds of other people, and that teaches you how to do it. Unless homeschooled kids find some other way to interact with that many people for that much time, they're not getting the same benefits, and so they're not learning how people work. They can socialise, perhaps; but I can't see how it's nearly as easy, because spending thirty hours a day at home with your parents means you meet less people than if you spend thirty hours a day at school with strangers. Now, high school culture has its flaws, and perhaps they're worse in America than they are here, but that just means the high school system needs to be fixed. It doesn't mean you should pull out entirely.

    Crimson King on
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    One of the main reasons home-schoolers do better academically than their public school counterparts is because they have parents who are highly engaged in their education. Someone who has decided to pull their kids out of school and teach them at home at least gives a shit about their children's education. That's not a given in public school. So, yeah, there is a strong selection bias in the sample of homeschoolers.

    But the self-selecting nature of homeschooling is kind of the point. Homeschooling parents believe that they can give a better education to their kids than public school teachers. For the most part, their belief seems to be correct.

    I meant to imply that there is selection bias in "of the homeschoolers who took the test." It's not fair to compare "those who took the test" to "all public school students." It's a pretty big gap, too, when you consider that many of the kids who don't take the test are probably unschoolers which is a form of homeschool. At least when you compare against all public school students you're getting those that are into it along with those that aren't.

    jclast on
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    DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    agentk13 wrote: »
    jclast wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Yet 51% of Americans believed that Humans were created by God.

    Yeah, public education is really doing its job....
    It's not public school's job to take a position on the existence or non-existence of God.

    Part of the reason many people homeschool is because of their feeling that the culture of public schools is hostile to their beliefs and values. The whole issue of creationism versus evolution is just a part of this. Other things, such as the relative acceptance of homosexuality, perceptions that history is being taught in a revisionist manner and the feeling that religious belief is discouraged, all lead parents to conclude that homeschooling is needed to raise their kids in line with the parents' preferred moral and religious beliefs.

    I don't agree with their views on this, but I support their right to homeschool if they feel the public schools are a negative environment.
    So long as they're actually receiving an education.
    Of course. But I haven't seen any concrete evidence that homeschooling leads to worse academic results than public schools.

    This is all I've found, can't search too long as I'm at work

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Criticism_of_supportive_achievement_studies

    In otherwords, mixed results, and neither side can say definitively. Given the importance of getting a good education, I would think standards a good idea.

    Mixed results?

    Man, don't you read your links?
    Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[92] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[93]

    Of the students who took the exams. There are 3 homeschool households in my neighborhood that I know of. None of them take the tests. Of course parents who are well-equipped and into their kids education and teach them the curriculum do well on the tests. It's the fuckwits who don't make Billy do math because he doesn't like it that really worry me.

    Blah blah blah....

    There are people in public education who continue to pass classes, even though they have no clue on what's going on.

    How, exactly, is that a good response to allegations of selection bias?

    How is anecdotal envidence a good response to sourced evidence?

    Show me something that says home school kids are more poorly educated then publicly school kids.

    You glossed over the critical point. That study only accounts for students that take the test.

    Deebaser on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Yet 51% of Americans believed that Humans were created by God.

    Yeah, public education is really doing its job....
    It's not public school's job to take a position on the existence or non-existence of God.

    Part of the reason many people homeschool is because of their feeling that the culture of public schools is hostile to their beliefs and values. The whole issue of creationism versus evolution is just a part of this. Other things, such as the relative acceptance of homosexuality, perceptions that history is being taught in a revisionist manner and the feeling that religious belief is discouraged, all lead parents to conclude that homeschooling is needed to raise their kids in line with the parents' preferred moral and religious beliefs.

    I don't agree with their views on this, but I support their right to homeschool if they feel the public schools are a negative environment.
    So long as they're actually receiving an education.
    Of course. But I haven't seen any concrete evidence that homeschooling leads to worse academic results than public schools.

    This is all I've found, can't search too long as I'm at work

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling#Criticism_of_supportive_achievement_studies

    In otherwords, mixed results, and neither side can say definitively. Given the importance of getting a good education, I would think standards a good idea.

    Mixed results?

    Man, don't you read your links?
    Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[92] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[93]

    Other test scores (numbers from 1999 data in a year 2000 article) showed mixed results, for example showing higher levels for homeschoolers in English (homeschooled 23.4 vs national average 20.5) and reading (homeschooled 24.4 vs national average 21.4) on the ACT, but mixed scores in math (homeschooled 20.4 vs national average 20.7 on ACT, although SAT math section was above average 535 homeschooled compared to 511 for national average of 1999)

    There is nothing close to conclusive evidence on either side regarding academic performance. As was said earlier, confirmation bias is a huge issue.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    SpacemilkSpacemilk Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I don't know about the rest of you but at some point I figure every student needs to come to the following conclusion if they are going to get anything substantial out of any educational course irregardless if it be from homeschooling, distance education, public schooling, private schooling, college, university, or tutored courses: The student has to take responsibility for getting the most out of their education that will be applicable to their own lives. Essentially, realizing the benefits of being self-taught.
    Excellent post! This is truly the best thing that comes out of homeschooling and webschooling: Often the kids are better motivated and more capable of teaching themselves. This has been true of every successful homeschooled kid I've known.

    And I'm really starting to get tired of the people who continue to repeat that high school provides a socialization experience. Two problems with that:
    1) The socialization experience is not the point of high school, or any schooling. The point is to learn. Socialization is a secondary benefit. If the child is not learning up to speed, or if the child could be better served through another teaching medium, then don't continue to pursue traditional schooling simply because of socialization.
    2) The socialization experience can be gotten in other, BETTER ways. The child can actually choose extracurricular activities that interest him/her, and socialize with people that way, than to be forced to sit in school where their socialization also includes an unhealthy dose of bullying.

    I think multiple things need to happen in the current system: Homeschooling and webschooling need to be made more viable through support from local school systems to ensure kids can still participate in extracurricular activities; but homeschooling and webschooling must be validated through better, more rigorous standards and testing. And something needs to be done about bullying, though, let's be honest: It would be much easier to make homeschooling/webschooling a viable option, than it would be to even put a dent in bullying in schools.

    Spacemilk on
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    King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I have nothing against Homeschooling. In fact I think the program mentioned in the OP is one of the better ways to go about it. Pennsylvania has at least one Cyber charter school and it's doing quite well though as I have no children I really haven't had reason to look into it.

    My sole gripe is if a parent forgoes options like a tutor or cyber schools and wishes to teach their own child there has to be some sort of guidelines in place for the parent/teacher and a third party monitor to make sure the child is actually learning.


    As to socialization I know religion is abhorred on this board but Church youth groups are everywhere and most aren't lunatic cults , Most public schools will allow a home student to take part in after school programs, and well you could always just let your kid hang out at the mall after his classes and make friends .

    King Riptor on
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    YarYar Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I'm curious about his "learning social skills" theory.

    Which would you say is the more common and believable hypothetical, based on your experience?:

    A: A kid who started school as shy, with poor social skills, and getting picked on, but who learned from it and learned to deal and became confident and well-adjusted and able to use social situations positively to his/her benefit.

    B: A kid who started school as shy, with poor social skills, and getting picked on, and it continued steadily or even escalated, and he/she either turned into an academic/behavioral disaster or otherwise checked out of social interactions completely, but either way harbors all sorts of unproductive hang-ups and bitterness about other people and about authority figures well into adulthood, which, at best, are only healed by years of interaction with mature adults in adult environments.

    Because I'm pretty sure that A is practically a fairy tale, something that almost never happens, but when it does they write books and make movies about it (because it is such a fairy tale). And B is what actually happens.

    There's also C: the kids who are outgoing and understand social interactions from a young age, and actually are able to hone these skills quite a bit in school social situations, though they probably didn't gain much from that and would have been better off focusing on academics.

    I would say the social skills thing is at best just like everything else - your average kid, if at a good school, will get a beneficial education. But probably not any better than they would from a good homeschooling curriculum that includes group activities and authority figures besides parents (coaches, pack leaders, dance instructors, etc.). Whereas the not-average will not do well at all at school and the shortcomings will only fester and would likely do much better in a different environment.

    Yar on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I don't know about the rest of you but at some point I figure every student needs to come to the following conclusion if they are going to get anything substantial out of any educational course irregardless if it be from homeschooling, distance education, public schooling, private schooling, college, university, or tutored courses: The student has to take responsibility for getting the most out of their education that will be applicable to their own lives. Essentially, realizing the benefits of being self-taught.
    Excellent post! This is truly the best thing that comes out of homeschooling and webschooling: Often the kids are better motivated and more capable of teaching themselves. This has been true of every successful homeschooled kid I've known.

    And I'm really starting to get tired of the people who continue to repeat that high school provides a socialization experience. Two problems with that:
    1) The socialization experience is not the point of high school, or any schooling. The point is to learn. Socialization is a secondary benefit. If the child is not learning up to speed, or if the child could be better served through another teaching medium, then don't continue to pursue traditional schooling simply because of socialization.
    2) The socialization experience can be gotten in other, BETTER ways. The child can actually choose extracurricular activities that interest him/her, and socialize with people that way, than to be forced to sit in school where their socialization also includes an unhealthy dose of bullying.

    I think multiple things need to happen in the current system: Homeschooling and webschooling need to be made more viable through support from local school systems to ensure kids can still participate in extracurricular activities; but homeschooling and webschooling must be validated through better, more rigorous standards and testing. And something needs to be done about bullying, though, let's be honest: It would be much easier to make homeschooling/webschooling a viable option, than it would be to even put a dent in bullying in schools.

    1).I'm going to have to point out for the millionth time that socialization is more than learning to hang out with your friends, its learning how to deal with people you don't like it situations you don't like.

    2). You're making a value judgment on whether the socialization experience is better. You can choose all sorts of extracurriculars that interest you in school, many you would not have access to as a homeschooler. (I agree they should be accessible to homeschoolers if the parents are paying taxes though)

    3). I'm not sure why its the local school system's job to support homeschooling, they already run a school district for the purpose of education, if the parents want to send their kid somewhere else or do something else the school district shouldn't be footing a bill.

    4). Agreed on standards, perhaps testing. Mostly depends on how it would be implimented. The quality of education must be ensured of course.

    5). The solution to bullying isn't to hide kids from bullies. Its to teach kids how to handle bullying and to increase the watch for bullying in the school area.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    SpacemilkSpacemilk Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I don't know about the rest of you but at some point I figure every student needs to come to the following conclusion if they are going to get anything substantial out of any educational course irregardless if it be from homeschooling, distance education, public schooling, private schooling, college, university, or tutored courses: The student has to take responsibility for getting the most out of their education that will be applicable to their own lives. Essentially, realizing the benefits of being self-taught.
    Excellent post! This is truly the best thing that comes out of homeschooling and webschooling: Often the kids are better motivated and more capable of teaching themselves. This has been true of every successful homeschooled kid I've known.

    And I'm really starting to get tired of the people who continue to repeat that high school provides a socialization experience. Two problems with that:
    1) The socialization experience is not the point of high school, or any schooling. The point is to learn. Socialization is a secondary benefit. If the child is not learning up to speed, or if the child could be better served through another teaching medium, then don't continue to pursue traditional schooling simply because of socialization.
    2) The socialization experience can be gotten in other, BETTER ways. The child can actually choose extracurricular activities that interest him/her, and socialize with people that way, than to be forced to sit in school where their socialization also includes an unhealthy dose of bullying.

    I think multiple things need to happen in the current system: Homeschooling and webschooling need to be made more viable through support from local school systems to ensure kids can still participate in extracurricular activities; but homeschooling and webschooling must be validated through better, more rigorous standards and testing. And something needs to be done about bullying, though, let's be honest: It would be much easier to make homeschooling/webschooling a viable option, than it would be to even put a dent in bullying in schools.

    1).I'm going to have to point out for the millionth time that socialization is more than learning to hang out with your friends, its learning how to deal with people you don't like it situations you don't like.

    2). You're making a value judgment on whether the socialization experience is better. You can choose all sorts of extracurriculars that interest you in school, many you would not have access to as a homeschooler. (I agree they should be accessible to homeschoolers if the parents are paying taxes though)

    3). I'm not sure why its the local school system's job to support homeschooling, they already run a school district for the purpose of education, if the parents want to send their kid somewhere else or do something else the school district shouldn't be footing a bill.

    4). Agreed on standards, perhaps testing. Mostly depends on how it would be implimented. The quality of education must be ensured of course.

    5). The solution to bullying isn't to hide kids from bullies. Its to teach kids how to handle bullying and to increase the watch for bullying in the school area.
    1) I interact with people I don't like every day. School is not the only place where kids can learn these skills. They can also learn it at after-school jobs, through volunteering, from a shitty coach for an extracurricular they like... this is a non-point, as I have pointed out over and over again.

    2) & 3) You contradict yourself between these two points. But let me point out: All homeschooling parents pay taxes to foot the bill for a $5000-10000 average expected yearly cost for public schools. (depending on what your state is, etc) Yet they also foot the bill for their own kid's homeschooling. Yet they aren't allowed to participate in extracurriculars, which is the barest part of the budget for schooling? The school district isn't footing the bill for ANYTHING - in fact, they are making out like bandits off parents who choose alternative schooling.

    4) Ah yes, the "high quality of schooling"... I really have little respect for the quality of schooling obtained in most public schools, but hey, set the standards there, that's fine. Sarcasm aside, I'm glad we agree on this point.

    5) Ok then, pay for more human monitors in hallways. Pay for cameras and recording devices to watch kids in every area at school, and while you're at it, pay for lawsuits when parents get pissed. (and accept the fact that bathrooms and lockerrooms are going to become a bullying hotspot) Pay for counseling for kids, both bullies and those bullied. Pay for some way to keep kids from texting during class, whether it's through searches to take kids' phones away when school starts, or whatever.

    And after you've done all this, go ahead and accept that you cannot stop kids from bullying without removing a kid from a harmful situation.

    And THEN ask yourself, when another perfectly viable solution is available and all you have to do is implement a few rules and do some annual testing for the kids and their parent-teachers, why you continue to put kids in a harmful situation for no other reason than they need to "learn to deal with it". Especially when they could learn to deal with it in a much more healthy way, without the chance of leaving the kid with emotional scars for the rest of their lives.

    Spacemilk on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I don't know about the rest of you but at some point I figure every student needs to come to the following conclusion if they are going to get anything substantial out of any educational course irregardless if it be from homeschooling, distance education, public schooling, private schooling, college, university, or tutored courses: The student has to take responsibility for getting the most out of their education that will be applicable to their own lives. Essentially, realizing the benefits of being self-taught.
    Excellent post! This is truly the best thing that comes out of homeschooling and webschooling: Often the kids are better motivated and more capable of teaching themselves. This has been true of every successful homeschooled kid I've known.

    And I'm really starting to get tired of the people who continue to repeat that high school provides a socialization experience. Two problems with that:
    1) The socialization experience is not the point of high school, or any schooling. The point is to learn. Socialization is a secondary benefit. If the child is not learning up to speed, or if the child could be better served through another teaching medium, then don't continue to pursue traditional schooling simply because of socialization.
    2) The socialization experience can be gotten in other, BETTER ways. The child can actually choose extracurricular activities that interest him/her, and socialize with people that way, than to be forced to sit in school where their socialization also includes an unhealthy dose of bullying.

    I think multiple things need to happen in the current system: Homeschooling and webschooling need to be made more viable through support from local school systems to ensure kids can still participate in extracurricular activities; but homeschooling and webschooling must be validated through better, more rigorous standards and testing. And something needs to be done about bullying, though, let's be honest: It would be much easier to make homeschooling/webschooling a viable option, than it would be to even put a dent in bullying in schools.

    1).I'm going to have to point out for the millionth time that socialization is more than learning to hang out with your friends, its learning how to deal with people you don't like it situations you don't like.

    2). You're making a value judgment on whether the socialization experience is better. You can choose all sorts of extracurriculars that interest you in school, many you would not have access to as a homeschooler. (I agree they should be accessible to homeschoolers if the parents are paying taxes though)

    3). I'm not sure why its the local school system's job to support homeschooling, they already run a school district for the purpose of education, if the parents want to send their kid somewhere else or do something else the school district shouldn't be footing a bill.

    4). Agreed on standards, perhaps testing. Mostly depends on how it would be implimented. The quality of education must be ensured of course.

    5). The solution to bullying isn't to hide kids from bullies. Its to teach kids how to handle bullying and to increase the watch for bullying in the school area.
    1) I interact with people I don't like every day. School is not the only place where kids can learn these skills. They can also learn it at after-school jobs, through volunteering, from a shitty coach for an extracurricular they like... this is a non-point, as I have pointed out over and over again.

    2) & 3) You contradict yourself between these two points. But let me point out: All homeschooling parents pay taxes to foot the bill for a $5000-10000 average expected yearly cost for public schools. (depending on what your state is, etc) Yet they also foot the bill for their own kid's homeschooling. Yet they aren't allowed to participate in extracurriculars, which is the barest part of the budget for schooling? The school district isn't footing the bill for ANYTHING - in fact, they are making out like bandits off parents who choose alternative schooling.

    4) Ah yes, the "high quality of schooling"... I really have little respect for the quality of schooling obtained in most public schools, but hey, set the standards there, that's fine. Sarcasm aside, I'm glad we agree on this point.

    5) Ok then, pay for more human monitors in hallways. Pay for cameras and recording devices to watch kids in every area at school, and while you're at it, pay for lawsuits when parents get pissed. (and accept the fact that bathrooms and lockerrooms are going to become a bullying hotspot) Pay for counseling for kids, both bullies and those bullied. Pay for some way to keep kids from texting during class, whether it's through searches to take kids' phones away when school starts, or whatever.

    And after you've done all this, go ahead and accept that you cannot stop kids from bullying without removing a kid from a harmful situation.

    And THEN ask yourself, when another perfectly viable solution is available and all you have to do is implement a few rules and do some annual testing for the kids and their parent-teachers, why you continue to put kids in a harmful situation for no other reason than they need to "learn to deal with it". Especially when they could learn to deal with it in a much more healthy way, without the chance of leaving the kid with emotional scars for the rest of their lives.


    1). Let's just drop the socialization discussion, its anecdotal evidence and value judgments on both sides.

    2) I see a difference between allowing homeschooled kids into extracurriculars or programs like band that home schooling can't provide and wanting schools to create some sort of program to facilitate homeschooling. Could you clarify: "Homeschooling and webschooling need to be made more viable through support from local school systems"?

    Also, access to extracurriculars varies. There were many homeschooled kids on our sports teams when I was in high school.

    3) I got a fine education in public school, as do many. My girlfriend got out of public highschool with enough college credit to skip a year of college. Preaching homeschooling as a solution to public school is a poor answer. Homeschooling isn't free, and generally not an option in single parent households or in instances where both parents work all day.

    4) You're taking my argument to some extreme regarding bullying, which you are also overrating the danger of. Its true that its on the rise, and that the damage can be great, but its not Ragnarok. I understand your sister had a shitty experience, and I don't want to sound callous.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    erraticrabbiterraticrabbit Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm gonna drop in and say a few things. On Socialization as an argument against homeschooling, specifically, as well as on standards.

    I was homeschooled from first grade all the way through highschool. This was back in the late 90's, in GA. There were standards in place even then. I had to take a test provided by the state yearly to assess my progress, with the understanding that I wouldn't be allowed to homeschool if I failed. How's that for standards? We were allowed our own curriculum, but we were expected to know the same information as public school students by the end of our year. Of course, I always scored above them. Huzzah.

    As for socialization, there are many homeschool organizations. I had potlucks and other meetings weekly, and I was on a homeschool soccer team. We were a terrible team, since we had a much wider range of ages, but that's not the point. We did tours and trips to museums and historical parks up and down the east coast.

    How did I turn out? I've recently finished my BS, and am using contacts to get interviews for federal law enforcement positions. I've been enlisted in the air force as security forces, and as it turns out I was very good at the old 'verbal judo'.

    Anecdote complete. My point somewhere was that socialization is a bullshit argument people have been shatting everywhere, as well as 'omg standards'. If a kid wants to be a recluse, he's going to be.

    Holyshit do I hate that southpark episode about homeschooling. Godamn.

    erraticrabbit on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    This debate suffers from a crippling lack of evidence on either side.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    agoajagoaj Top Tier One FearRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm gonna drop in and say a few things. On Socialization as an argument against homeschooling, specifically, as well as on standards.

    I was homeschooled from first grade all the way through highschool. This was back in the late 90's, in GA. There were standards in place even then. I had to take a test provided by the state yearly to assess my progress, with the understanding that I wouldn't be allowed to homeschool if I failed. How's that for standards? We were allowed our own curriculum, but we were expected to know the same information as public school students by the end of our year. Of course, I always scored above them. Huzzah.

    As for socialization, there are many homeschool organizations. I had potlucks and other meetings weekly, and I was on a homeschool soccer team. We were a terrible team, since we had a much wider range of ages, but that's not the point. We did tours and trips to museums and historical parks up and down the east coast.

    How did I turn out? I've recently finished my BS, and am using contacts to get interviews for federal law enforcement positions. I've been enlisted in the air force as security forces, and as it turns out I was very good at the old 'verbal judo'.

    Anecdote complete. My point somewhere was that socialization is a bullshit argument people have been shatting everywhere, as well as 'omg standards'. If a kid wants to be a recluse, he's going to be.

    Holyshit do I hate that southpark episode about homeschooling. Godamn.

    Ah, but you are posting on an anti-social gaming message board, one post away from complete madness.

    agoaj on
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    Crimson KingCrimson King Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Yar wrote: »
    I'm curious about his "learning social skills" theory.

    Which would you say is the more common and believable hypothetical, based on your experience?:

    A: A kid who started school as shy, with poor social skills, and getting picked on, but who learned from it and learned to deal and became confident and well-adjusted and able to use social situations positively to his/her benefit.

    B: A kid who started school as shy, with poor social skills, and getting picked on, and it continued steadily or even escalated, and he/she either turned into an academic/behavioral disaster or otherwise checked out of social interactions completely, but either way harbors all sorts of unproductive hang-ups and bitterness about other people and about authority figures well into adulthood, which, at best, are only healed by years of interaction with mature adults in adult environments.

    Because I'm pretty sure that A is practically a fairy tale, something that almost never happens, but when it does they write books and make movies about it (because it is such a fairy tale). And B is what actually happens.

    I'm A, and so are many of my friends. So you're wrong.

    Crimson King on
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    King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Yar wrote: »
    I'm curious about his "learning social skills" theory.

    Which would you say is the more common and believable hypothetical, based on your experience?:

    A: A kid who started school as shy, with poor social skills, and getting picked on, but who learned from it and learned to deal and became confident and well-adjusted and able to use social situations positively to his/her benefit.

    B: A kid who started school as shy, with poor social skills, and getting picked on, and it continued steadily or even escalated, and he/she either turned into an academic/behavioral disaster or otherwise checked out of social interactions completely, but either way harbors all sorts of unproductive hang-ups and bitterness about other people and about authority figures well into adulthood, which, at best, are only healed by years of interaction with mature adults in adult environments.

    Because I'm pretty sure that A is practically a fairy tale, something that almost never happens, but when it does they write books and make movies about it (because it is such a fairy tale). And B is what actually happens.

    I'm A, and so are many of my friends. So you're wrong.


    I'm B and so are many of oh wait.

    King Riptor on
    I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
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    stawkstawk Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Yar wrote: »
    I'm curious about his "learning social skills" theory.

    Which would you say is the more common and believable hypothetical, based on your experience?:

    A: A kid who started school as shy, with poor social skills, and getting picked on, but who learned from it and learned to deal and became confident and well-adjusted and able to use social situations positively to his/her benefit.

    B: A kid who started school as shy, with poor social skills, and getting picked on, and it continued steadily or even escalated, and he/she either turned into an academic/behavioral disaster or otherwise checked out of social interactions completely, but either way harbors all sorts of unproductive hang-ups and bitterness about other people and about authority figures well into adulthood, which, at best, are only healed by years of interaction with mature adults in adult environments.

    Because I'm pretty sure that A is practically a fairy tale, something that almost never happens, but when it does they write books and make movies about it (because it is such a fairy tale). And B is what actually happens.

    I'm A, and so are many of my friends. So you're wrong.


    I'm B and so are many of oh wait.

    You know what i wouldnt have gotten if i was homeschooled? Daily physical and verbal abuse for being a white kid in a mostly black school.

    On a side not I got expelled from middleschool and ended up going to a Charter school. Those places are great. Small and the teachers care I would say we should all do that :P

    stawk on

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