Garrus, however, gets too vested in every situation he is in. It isn't just a job to him, everything is personal, and while this may translate to decent performance, it is too large of a liability. What happens when he disagrees with one of Shepard's actions? Does Shepard get added to his hit list as well? Garrus is too idealistic of a young-Turian, he's dangerous.
Garrus will fall in line because he's a team player. Heck, he even listens to Shepard when emotions are running high and he's got Sidonis in his sights, so that holds no water.
Contrast Zaeed, who cheerfully compromised the mission of rescuing those engineers so he could have his revenge. Yeah, that's right: the mission wasn't to kill Vido, it was to clear the facility and rescue the personnel.
The mission was presented as such, but in all reality, the mission was "Do Something for Zaeed". It wasn't Shepard's mission, it was Zaeed's, and if Zaeed wanted to kill Vido, that was what we were going to do.
Besides, looking at the situation, we had a bunch of engineers, or one of the most dangerous men in the galaxy.
Zaeed wanted to take the logical course of action.
TracerBullet on
0
OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
Tracer has a point. The point of the loyalty missions is to gain loyalty. Shepard isn't being ordered by the Alliance to save the workers or anything, it's Zaeed's contract that Shepard agreed to help him with.
Garrus, however, gets too vested in every situation he is in. It isn't just a job to him, everything is personal, and while this may translate to decent performance, it is too large of a liability. What happens when he disagrees with one of Shepard's actions? Does Shepard get added to his hit list as well? Garrus is too idealistic of a young-Turian, he's dangerous.
Garrus will fall in line because he's a team player. Heck, he even listens to Shepard when emotions are running high and he's got Sidonis in his sights, so that holds no water.
Contrast Zaeed, who cheerfully compromised the mission of rescuing those engineers so he could have his revenge. Yeah, that's right: the mission wasn't to kill Vido, it was to clear the facility and rescue the personnel.
The mission was presented as such, but in all reality, the mission was "Do Something for Zaeed". It wasn't Shepard's mission, it was Zaeed's, and if Zaeed wanted to kill Vido, that was what we were going to do.
Besides, looking at the situation, we had a bunch of engineers, or one of the most dangerous men in the galaxy.
Zaeed wanted to take the logical course of action.
That's not really an adequate response to the families of the men who died. It's not like you need Zaeed to defeat the Reapers. I mean heck, he's DLC.
Garrus, however, gets too vested in every situation he is in. It isn't just a job to him, everything is personal, and while this may translate to decent performance, it is too large of a liability. What happens when he disagrees with one of Shepard's actions? Does Shepard get added to his hit list as well? Garrus is too idealistic of a young-Turian, he's dangerous.
Garrus will fall in line because he's a team player. Heck, he even listens to Shepard when emotions are running high and he's got Sidonis in his sights, so that holds no water.
Contrast Zaeed, who cheerfully compromised the mission of rescuing those engineers so he could have his revenge. Yeah, that's right: the mission wasn't to kill Vido, it was to clear the facility and rescue the personnel.
The mission was presented as such, but in all reality, the mission was "Do Something for Zaeed". It wasn't Shepard's mission, it was Zaeed's, and if Zaeed wanted to kill Vido, that was what we were going to do.
Besides, looking at the situation, we had a bunch of engineers, or one of the most dangerous men in the galaxy.
Zaeed wanted to take the logical course of action.
That's not really an adequate response to the families of the men who died. It's not like you need Zaeed to defeat the Reapers. I mean heck, he's DLC.
Why bring up a nice story point and a lame out-of-story mechanics point?
Yeah, it isn't a good response to the families of the men who died. But then it comes down to whether or not your Shepard cares. My Shepard sees it as X number of workers die versus Y number of people Vido's existence has/will cause to die. I believe Y>X
I've never been able to Renegade Zaeed's mission until my latest playthrough as an absolutely psychotic Renegade who hates everyone.
In my last playthrough (which was still Renegade) I had just enough Paragon points to get Zaeed's loyalty on the Paragon path. Zaeed needs to learn who he works for, and that his vendetta doesn't get in the way of any mission. We were there to liberate that facility, not to kill Vido Santiago.
It's essentially the same choice as Bring Down the Sky.
Imagine if the council ordered you to save a group of human diplomats held hostage by the geth. Nihlus personally joins you as a sign of goodwill, to gain your loyalty. You discover Saren is actually on the planet and you have an opportunity to kill him once and for all, at the cost of the lives of the diplomats. You decide to go for Saren, but then Nihlus punches you and tells you to stick to the mission.
A record 7.3 million credits was paid for breeding rights to Gorefang Akosh Himon Igole Forvros, the varren who wowed judges at this year’s Inter-Colony Varren Kennel-Club show on planet Kruljaven. Gorefang is a red-striped clefnose from Tuchanka who, his trainer boasts, “has torn the heads off of a dozen armored mercs.” While the judges had no way to verify this particular qualification, Gorefang is free of scars and has fine dentition. Don’t rule the claim out, though — experts say that piercing standard krogan battle armor is quite possible for a varren in top shape. Tests have recorded Gorefang’s jaw exerting more than two metric tons of pressure per square centimeter. That’s quite a bite!
It's essentially the same choice as Bring Down the Sky.
It's really not, though.
Your real goal was to kep the refinery from being destroyed in Zaeed's mission, and to liberate the people beng used for slave labor; in BDTS, you were there to keep 4 million people from dying.
In BDTS, you accomplish that goal regardless of whether or not you save the engineers.
In Zaeed's mission, the company who hired Zaeed loses personnel and a tremendous amount of capital if you go Renegade, which is contrary to your mission.
My Shepard is a pragmatist; she'll fulfil the mission and prevent the loss of as many lives as possible
It's essentially the same choice as Bring Down the Sky.
It's really not, though.
Your real goal was to kep the refinery from being destroyed in Zaeed's mission, and to liberate the people beng used for slave labor; in BDTS, you were there to keep 4 million people from dying.
In BDTS, you accomplish that goal regardless of whether or not you save the engineers.
In Zaeed's mission, the company who hired Zaeed loses personnel and a tremendous amount of capital if you go Renegade, which is contrary to your mission.
My Shepard is a pragmatist; she'll fulfil the mission and prevent the loss of as many lives as possible
And she hates Batarians
And my Shepard is practical. She'll do her best to fulfill a mission, but she won't shy away from letting a few die for the sake of many.
Your goal was to fulfill the arrangement between Cerberus and Zaeed and gain his loyalty. Zaeed's contract was to save the workers. It is his mission, the only reason you're helping him with it is because that's the deal he made with TIM.
But really, I mostly go paragon on that choice, just to teach Zaeed who's in charge. I wouldn't mind so much if Zaeed told me from the very beginning that he wanted to kill Vido instead of pulling that crap mid-mission.
Your goal was to fulfill the arrangement between Cerberus and Zaeed and gain his loyalty. Zaeed's contract was to save the workers. It is his mission, the only reason you're helping him with it is because that's the deal he made with TIM.
But really, I mostly go paragon on that choice, just to teach Zaeed who's in charge. I wouldn't mind so much if Zaeed told me from the very beginning that he wanted to kill Vido instead of pulling that crap mid-mission.
He tells you he wants to kill Vido before your first firefight.
It's hardly mid-mission. I mean, you land, and he's like "Hey, Shepard, I wanna fucking kill Vido. I've dedicated 20 years of my life to this, so like, let's do this"
Tracer what you just said is in no way different from what I said.
-Tal, I will also agree on the point that it is not in keeping with the terms of his hiring that he insists it's his mission. It isn't. It's a mission that was given to him by a company who wanted him to free a refinery. Him letting his personal feelings get in the way means jack diddly-damn to me, and if the only way to illustrate that point is
Tracer what you just said is in no way different from what I said.
That just isn't true. What you said equates to saving the lives of the engineers because you believe their lives are greater than the lives of those Vido will inevitably kill. What I said equates to letting them die because their lives are worth less than the lives that Vido will inevitably kill.
Also, by what basis do you assume he was even GIVEN a mission? I mean, it's PRETTY OBVIOUS that he really just tracked down Vido and wanted to kill him. It's a fairly safe bet to assume he just lied to Shepard initially because he didn't want to divulge too much about himself. Being a former leader of the blue suns isn't the most noble of titles.
Whether or not the company is satisfied is completely irrelevant to Shepard. They didn't hire her, they hired Zaeed. His satisfaction is far more important.
Tracer what you just said is in no way different from what I said.
That just isn't true. What you said equates to saving the lives of the engineers because you believe their lives are greater than the lives of those Vido will inevitably kill. What I said equates to letting them die because their lives are worth less than the lives that Vido will inevitably kill.
Think that's my first time being salmon'd. You took my virginity.
Anyway
Vido is more of a figurehead in the Blue Suns now. The Blue Suns will not cease to operate thanks to his death; they will not even reasonably be slowed down. I can't concern myself with every two-bit warlord I come across, I have a freaking job to do. Creating a power vacuum in the Blue Suns where only the most ruthless will rise to power for the sake of fulfilling a grudge has nothing to do with either this mission that I signed on for or the larger mission of annihilating the Collectors.
And how is "will save as many lives as possible" different from "will sacrifice the few for the many", exactly, especially given what I explained myself as doing at the end of BDTS?
It comes down to whether you consider the company's contract or the suicide mission more important. If you snub Zaeed for the sake of a mission that is irrelevant to you except in making Zaeed happy, that's a significant blow to the strength of your dirty dozen. Not only is the suicide mission more important than all of their lives, but the lives of some random factory workers too.
A more traditional paragon view wouldn't care about either mission's integrity and save the workers because it's "the right thing to do", but paragons are silly.
There's a reason I let him burn to death in my first playthrough: somebody who operates on vendettas and grudges above and beyond the mission - and can't be talked down, no less - is too crazy to work on my ship.
Tracer what you just said is in no way different from what I said.
That just isn't true. What you said equates to saving the lives of the engineers because you believe their lives are greater than the lives of those Vido will inevitably kill. What I said equates to letting them die because their lives are worth less than the lives that Vido will inevitably kill.
Think that's my first time being salmon'd. You took my virginity.
Anyway
Vido is more of a figurehead in the Blue Suns now. The Blue Suns will not cease to operate thanks to his death; they will not even reasonably be slowed down. I can't concern myself with every two-bit warlord I come across, I have a freaking job to do. Creating a power vacuum in the Blue Suns where only the most ruthless will rise to power for the sake of fulfilling a grudge has nothing to do with either this mission that I signed on for or the larger mission of annihilating the Collectors.
And how is "will save as many lives as possible" different from "will sacrifice the few for the many", exactly, especially given what I explained myself as doing at the end of BDTS?
But you're just assuming that. We don't know how powerful or secure Vido's grip on the suns is. For all you know, he could be the very essence of the blue suns now, he could be all important.
And a power vaccuum would inevitably destablize them, let one of the other merc groups seize on an opportunity to squash them, all sorts of the things.
And the mission you signed on for, was Zaeed's mission, you never got a contract. Zaeed tells you before you pull out your gun "We're here to kill Vido". He mentions before hand at Omega that he got a contract about the blue suns on that planet enslaving a refinery. And he wants to "take care of it", he was vague. But you certainly didn't sign on to do that, you signed on to help Zaeed.
There's a reason I let him burn to death in my first playthrough: somebody who operates on vendettas and grudges above and beyond the mission - and can't be talked down, no less - is too crazy to work on my ship.
this is my actual view, Zaeed can't have outbursts like that in future missions
But you're just assuming that. We don't know how powerful or secure Vido's grip on the suns is. For all you know, he could be the very essence of the blue suns now, he could be all important.
And a power vaccuum would inevitably destablize them, let one of the other merc groups seize on an opportunity to squash them, all sorts of the things.
And the mission you signed on for, was Zaeed's mission, you never got a contract. Zaeed tells you before you pull out your gun "We're here to kill Vido". He mentions before hand at Omega that he got a contract about the blue suns on that planet enslaving a refinery. And he wants to "take care of it", he was vague. But you certainly didn't sign on to do that, you signed on to help Zaeed.
Can't concern myself with every two-bit warlord I come across. In a galaxy full of trillions where hundreds of millions are running around in mercenary bands in tens of thousands of star systems, not only is powe centralization impossible, it's irrelevant. Killing Vido Santiago does not further my interests.
Zaeed asked me to help him fulfil a contract. That's exactly what I did. He wanted more than that, he should have asked beforehand. Nobody gets to change the contract. Not with me.
There's a reason I let him burn to death in my first playthrough: somebody who operates on vendettas and grudges above and beyond the mission - and can't be talked down, no less - is too crazy to work on my ship.
this is my actual view, Zaeed can't have outbursts like that in future missions
I wholeheartedly encourage it. His "outburst" killed a good handful of enemies, and opened a way into the refinery.
The end of that mission didn't really make sense to me.
Why couldn't the Normandy stop them?
And didn't they have to do an emergency landing. Couldn't Sheppard and Zaeed just track them again?
Yeah, that was dumb. From Shepard's perspective, there's no real reason to let Zaeed have his way. So Vido gets a shuttle off the planet? Too bad I don't have some super-advanced warship hanging around. And having seen what Shepard is capable of, there's no reason to assume that she can't track down some glorified thug like Vido after the suicide mission anyway.
It's not like that band of mercs that Zaeed blew up were a credible threat, either. If he hadn't been impulsive over a bunch of scrubs, there wouldn't even be a dilemma in the first place.
Punch in the face and do what the fuck I tell you, merc.
SoundsPlush on
0
OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
Look at you! Both of you! This is exactly what the Reapers want. Tracerbullet of course Wyborn's worried about the engineers, you want to destroy them! And Wyborn. What the hell were you thinking? Are you trying to undermine this entire operation?
We're on a mission. You can either fight at my side or get crushed under my heel. But you will not stand in my way.
Look at you! Both of you! This is exactly what the Reapers want. Tracerbullet of course Wyborn's worried about the engineers, you want to destroy them! And Wyborn. What the hell were you thinking? Are you trying to undermine this entire operation?
We're on a mission. You can either fight at my side or get crushed under my heel. But you will not stand in my way.
I will not compromise my views. It's all or nothing! Give 110%! If people have to die, so be it!
Because I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite store on the Citadel!
Posts
besides, faith didn't drag Wrex's lazy ass off the ship so he could charge Saren from behind instead of clipping his toenails
It's one part faith and one part "They're wearing Colossus Armor and Ashley has Immunity"
There
Discussion: done
The mission was presented as such, but in all reality, the mission was "Do Something for Zaeed". It wasn't Shepard's mission, it was Zaeed's, and if Zaeed wanted to kill Vido, that was what we were going to do.
Besides, looking at the situation, we had a bunch of engineers, or one of the most dangerous men in the galaxy.
Zaeed wanted to take the logical course of action.
That's not really an adequate response to the families of the men who died. It's not like you need Zaeed to defeat the Reapers. I mean heck, he's DLC.
They knew the rules.
Why bring up a nice story point and a lame out-of-story mechanics point?
Yeah, it isn't a good response to the families of the men who died. But then it comes down to whether or not your Shepard cares. My Shepard sees it as X number of workers die versus Y number of people Vido's existence has/will cause to die. I believe Y>X
In my last playthrough (which was still Renegade) I had just enough Paragon points to get Zaeed's loyalty on the Paragon path. Zaeed needs to learn who he works for, and that his vendetta doesn't get in the way of any mission. We were there to liberate that facility, not to kill Vido Santiago.
Don't you know about the power of three?
Blasphemy.
Imagine if the council ordered you to save a group of human diplomats held hostage by the geth. Nihlus personally joins you as a sign of goodwill, to gain your loyalty. You discover Saren is actually on the planet and you have an opportunity to kill him once and for all, at the cost of the lives of the diplomats. You decide to go for Saren, but then Nihlus punches you and tells you to stick to the mission.
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
It's really not, though.
In BDTS, you accomplish that goal regardless of whether or not you save the engineers.
In Zaeed's mission, the company who hired Zaeed loses personnel and a tremendous amount of capital if you go Renegade, which is contrary to your mission.
My Shepard is a pragmatist; she'll fulfil the mission and prevent the loss of as many lives as possible
And she hates Batarians
And my Shepard is practical. She'll do her best to fulfill a mission, but she won't shy away from letting a few die for the sake of many.
But really, I mostly go paragon on that choice, just to teach Zaeed who's in charge. I wouldn't mind so much if Zaeed told me from the very beginning that he wanted to kill Vido instead of pulling that crap mid-mission.
He tells you he wants to kill Vido before your first firefight.
It's hardly mid-mission. I mean, you land, and he's like "Hey, Shepard, I wanna fucking kill Vido. I've dedicated 20 years of my life to this, so like, let's do this"
-Tal, I will also agree on the point that it is not in keeping with the terms of his hiring that he insists it's his mission. It isn't. It's a mission that was given to him by a company who wanted him to free a refinery. Him letting his personal feelings get in the way means jack diddly-damn to me, and if the only way to illustrate that point is
Besides
I loves me some Heavy Weapons ammo
That just isn't true. What you said equates to saving the lives of the engineers because you believe their lives are greater than the lives of those Vido will inevitably kill. What I said equates to letting them die because their lives are worth less than the lives that Vido will inevitably kill.
Also, by what basis do you assume he was even GIVEN a mission? I mean, it's PRETTY OBVIOUS that he really just tracked down Vido and wanted to kill him. It's a fairly safe bet to assume he just lied to Shepard initially because he didn't want to divulge too much about himself. Being a former leader of the blue suns isn't the most noble of titles.
Why couldn't the Normandy stop them?
And didn't they have to do an emergency landing. Couldn't Sheppard and Zaeed just track them again?
Think that's my first time being salmon'd. You took my virginity.
Anyway
Vido is more of a figurehead in the Blue Suns now. The Blue Suns will not cease to operate thanks to his death; they will not even reasonably be slowed down. I can't concern myself with every two-bit warlord I come across, I have a freaking job to do. Creating a power vacuum in the Blue Suns where only the most ruthless will rise to power for the sake of fulfilling a grudge has nothing to do with either this mission that I signed on for or the larger mission of annihilating the Collectors.
And how is "will save as many lives as possible" different from "will sacrifice the few for the many", exactly, especially given what I explained myself as doing at the end of BDTS?
It comes down to whether you consider the company's contract or the suicide mission more important. If you snub Zaeed for the sake of a mission that is irrelevant to you except in making Zaeed happy, that's a significant blow to the strength of your dirty dozen. Not only is the suicide mission more important than all of their lives, but the lives of some random factory workers too.
A more traditional paragon view wouldn't care about either mission's integrity and save the workers because it's "the right thing to do", but paragons are silly.
But you're just assuming that. We don't know how powerful or secure Vido's grip on the suns is. For all you know, he could be the very essence of the blue suns now, he could be all important.
And a power vaccuum would inevitably destablize them, let one of the other merc groups seize on an opportunity to squash them, all sorts of the things.
And the mission you signed on for, was Zaeed's mission, you never got a contract. Zaeed tells you before you pull out your gun "We're here to kill Vido". He mentions before hand at Omega that he got a contract about the blue suns on that planet enslaving a refinery. And he wants to "take care of it", he was vague. But you certainly didn't sign on to do that, you signed on to help Zaeed.
this is Shepards law
this is my actual view, Zaeed can't have outbursts like that in future missions
Can't concern myself with every two-bit warlord I come across. In a galaxy full of trillions where hundreds of millions are running around in mercenary bands in tens of thousands of star systems, not only is powe centralization impossible, it's irrelevant. Killing Vido Santiago does not further my interests.
Zaeed asked me to help him fulfil a contract. That's exactly what I did. He wanted more than that, he should have asked beforehand. Nobody gets to change the contract. Not with me.
I wholeheartedly encourage it. His "outburst" killed a good handful of enemies, and opened a way into the refinery.
I encourage my squadmates to take the initiative.
They like, are free spirits man. If they gotta do what they gotta do then they do what they gotta do
man
This is how I play my shepard, right here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-HhRH_gvPc
Soo deep bra. But yeah I usually let my teammates do the shit they gotta do.
Like cleaning my room.
Yeah, that was dumb. From Shepard's perspective, there's no real reason to let Zaeed have his way. So Vido gets a shuttle off the planet? Too bad I don't have some super-advanced warship hanging around. And having seen what Shepard is capable of, there's no reason to assume that she can't track down some glorified thug like Vido after the suicide mission anyway.
It's not like that band of mercs that Zaeed blew up were a credible threat, either. If he hadn't been impulsive over a bunch of scrubs, there wouldn't even be a dilemma in the first place.
Punch in the face and do what the fuck I tell you, merc.
We're on a mission. You can either fight at my side or get crushed under my heel. But you will not stand in my way.
What will the future hold?
I will not compromise my views. It's all or nothing! Give 110%! If people have to die, so be it!
Because I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite store on the Citadel!