Been caught stealing from work - help! *SOLVED*

looramagooralooramagoora Registered User
edited September 2010 in Help / Advice Forum
Ok basically before I start I just wanna say that i'm so not that kinda person in any other way, i would never ever steal from anyone i knew and i just thought coz i work for a big faceless company it would be ok. And yes it was soooooo stupid, i honestly know that. But yeh basically, I get on really well at my job, i'm fully trained up, thought of as a senior person, someone who can field any customer question etc. Last week they asked me to go down and help another store out and pay for my train tickets up front and i would get the money back. I agreed, but was too embarresed to tell them i wouldnt have any money left if i did that. I dunno i just felt immature/like they wouldnt ask me again (i'm 22 btw, been there for over a year).

But anyway, this is the stupid part. I put a refund through the till as if a customer was bringing something back and took the money out of the till. It came to about £40 altogether. They called me into day and showed me the reciepts, cctv (they have to do everything by the book) and asked for for an explanation. I admitted everything, explained why, said i was really sorry. They said i was suspended on full pay and i had to go back for a disiplinary to find out wether i get to keep my job.

Does anyone think it's worth me going back? I could just walk into to suffer the shame of getting the talking down of my life. Do u think they'll let me keep my job? They've spent a lot of money training me and i'm pretty valuable to the company, but everyone i've spoken to says theft is theft and they doubt i'll get my job back. Has this ever happened to anyone else? what was the outcome? I'd really appreciate some advice if anyone can be assed :)

looramagoora on
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  • SixSix Thankful for my limbs and teeth Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Start looking for another job.

    Don't steal.

    Six on
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  • VisionOfClarityVisionOfClarity Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I'm not in the UK so I don't know your laws. In most places in the US this would have gotten you fired and arrested on the spot so being sent home with pay (unless you're union where they have to do that sort of thing) would be a sign they're thinking about keeping you.

    VisionOfClarity on
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Does anyone think it's worth me going back? If you still want the job, or don't have anything else, it is. Bear in mind that it's not an easy time to find work right now so I wouldn't quit a decent job out of embarrassment.

    Do you think they'll let me keep my job? Probably not, sorry. I'd be pretty happy they haven't taken it to the police (even though it isn't a big amount of money at all) I know of a load of companies that would.

    Show up to the disciplinary, don't talk about your value to the company because that will just piss them off. Be honest and contrite and explain yourself and you might keep your job, but I honestly wouldn't expect to, sorry. :(

    edit: also start looking for jobs today there's too little going round right now to waste any time not looking

    815165 on
  • NailbunnyPDNailbunnyPD Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Its worth going back if only to make amends and hope they don't press charges.

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  • SipexSipex Registered User
    edited August 2010
    Stay around and see what they say but don't expect to keep your job.

    If you are offered to keep your job do your damned best to get your reputation back and be honest with them in the future if you can't afford something.

    Sipex on
    Horseshoe wrote:
    I've got good news and bad news about 6th level, That Guy. The good news is that Forbiddance spell allows you to prevent enemies different alignment from entering a consecrated area, which is actually useful! The bad news is that the only other new sixth level spell makes lunch for everybody. Guess which one the party is going to expect you to cast.
  • EshEsh Tending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles. Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    You need to go back in. Not showing up just makes you look all that much more guilty.

    Esh on
  • PaperPrittPaperPritt Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Ohhh boy. I'm sorry to give you the bad news here but the only outcome is that you're going to be fired. Well not so much fired as kicked the hell out of wherever you work.

    The only thing that's left to be determined is if they are going to press charges against you or not. My advice at this point would be to beg for mercy and hope that they won't.

    PaperPritt on
  • EuphoriacEuphoriac Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    This will sound a little harsh; but grow a backbone in future. Simply not mentioning that the train tickets would leave you penniless is stupid. What were they going to do, Fire you? They might now...

    I hope you get to keep your job so you can learn this lesson without suffering, but honestly...I just can't imagine agreeing to do something that would be such a detriment to me without mentioning that fact.

    Good luck.

    Euphoriac on
  • ZeonZeon Registered User
    edited August 2010
    What kind of job is this? Sounds like retail since you stole money from the till. If its retail... Unless you happen to be unionized, id say youre almost positively going to lose your job. But you mention being on leave with pay so im not sure...

    Like others said, do not mention how valuable an employee you are in the disciplinary meeting. Just answer their questions and if they give you time to speak your mind, mention how horrible you feel and why you did what you did. Dont make up any shit about "Oh i was going to pay it back once you guys refunded my train ticket" or anything else thats not true.

    Start looking for new jobs though, and if you do get fired, do not use this employer on your resume, because if your new employer checks your references, you will not get the job if they find out youve been fired for stealing. Not sure if previous employers can disclose that in the UK, so if they cant, ignore this part.

    Zeon on
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  • looramagooralooramagoora Registered User
    edited August 2010
    See i'm kinda thinking along the same lines as everybody else, i'll just get fired etc. But i dunno it's complicated, it is retail but is also something to do with animals so they put A LOT of money into training you and they are always really reluctant to fire anyone. My boss also said off the record that it was out of his hands but if he had to make the decision he would want to keep me. Also as i was leaving i said to my deputy manager that i was so sorry and she was basically like "you're a total fool for doing this but i would come back in for your disiplinary"

    And i'm feeling along the same lines as Esh, that i'll look even more guilty if i didnt go back.

    I wouldnt ever say to them "oh but i'm so great - how can you afford to let me go!" I'm not that sort of person to big themselves up, I already said to them today that i was really really sorry and could totally understand if they wanted me to leave the shop. But they have to do everything like BY THE BOOK, really specifically, so being suspended on full pay is mandotory anyway i think.

    Also, most of the younger folk that i work with have done it a couple of tme when everyones skint at the end of the month, so i know they wouldnt judge me. I know that doesnt make it any better though!

    To the person who straightaway said "learn your lesson - dont steal" thanks for stating the total obvious.

    looramagoora on
  • EggyToastEggyToast Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    If you take it on the chin and go back for disciplinary, there are many things that could happen. Some of them even positive, such as keeping good references or even keeping your job with a probationary period.

    If you don't go, then only bad things can happen. What do you gain from not going in? You already feel like shit about it, so you're not even avoiding embarrassment.

    EggyToast on
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  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited August 2010
    Also, most of the younger folk that i work with have done it a couple of tme when everyones skint at the end of the month, so i know they wouldnt judge me. I know that doesnt make it any better though!

    Stop saying/thinking anything like this. Seriously what the hell, how are you okay with working with thieves? That sort of thing needs to be reported.

    Fagatron on
  • SixSix Thankful for my limbs and teeth Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    See i'm kinda thinking along the same lines as everybody else, i'll just get fired etc. But i dunno it's complicated, it is retail but is also something to do with animals so they put A LOT of money into training you and they are always really reluctant to fire anyone. My boss also said off the record that it was out of his hands but if he had to make the decision he would want to keep me. Also as i was leaving i said to my deputy manager that i was so sorry and she was basically like "you're a total fool for doing this but i would come back in for your disiplinary"

    And i'm feeling along the same lines as Esh, that i'll look even more guilty if i didnt go back.

    I wouldnt ever say to them "oh but i'm so great - how can you afford to let me go!" I'm not that sort of person to big themselves up, I already said to them today that i was really really sorry and could totally understand if they wanted me to leave the shop. But they have to do everything like BY THE BOOK, really specifically, so being suspended on full pay is mandotory anyway i think.

    Also, most of the younger folk that i work with have done it a couple of tme when everyones skint at the end of the month, so i know they wouldnt judge me. I know that doesnt make it any better though!

    To the person who straightaway said "learn your lesson - dont steal" thanks for stating the total obvious.

    What's obvious to everyone else doesn't seem to be very obvious to you, so it's best to state it plainly.

    It's not complicated. Go in for your disciplinary hearing. Maybe you'll get lucky and get to keep your job. Probably you won't. That you think you can rationalize it says a lot.

    Start looking for another job.

    Six on
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  • Sir CarcassSir Carcass I have been shown the end of my world Round Rock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I've been a manager and have seen people that should get fired keep their job (albeit on the thinnest of ice) just for owning up to what they did and showing remorse, while other people involved tried to deny it and got canned. I would go to your hearing, admit it, state why but also that it doesn't excuse it, and show remorse. You might get lucky.

    Sir Carcass on
  • BlindZenDriverBlindZenDriver Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    EggyToast wrote: »
    If you take it on the chin and go back for disciplinary, there are many things that could happen. Some of them even positive, such as keeping good references or even keeping your job with a probationary period.

    If you don't go, then only bad things can happen. What do you gain from not going in? You already feel like shit about it, so you're not even avoiding embarrassment.

    100% spot on.

    BlindZenDriver on
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  • looramagooralooramagoora Registered User
    edited August 2010
    Six - It is obvious to me okay, it was something i did out of desperation and i'll never do it again, i feel completley embarressed/ashamed/regretful/stupid/guilty/like a total idiot. But i posted this thread to get some advice hopefully from someone who's been in the same situation or who has been in my bosses situation. All I was saying is, your really not helping mate, you cant make me feel worse than i do yeh.

    Since it's happened this morning, i've got a few texts from folk i work with saying basically that although their not condoning what i did, they know i'm not a bad person and they'd like me to come in for the disiplinary if it means theres any chance of keeping my job.

    Also when i said that other people do it aswell, it's not like i meant all the time or anything. Sorry i know that actually does sound really bad, it just seems ok sometimes coz it's such a big company and we get paid a pretty shitty wage to begin with. And it's never large amounts. I dunno, maybe it just seems more acceptable when u know it's going on.

    What about offering to pay it back? i would do it anyway but is it wise to bring that up? The thing is aswell i have another full time job i could walk into if i wanted due to family connections but i really love the job i'm in now and i feel so stupid for f**king it all up.

    looramagoora on
  • EshEsh Tending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles. Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Six - It is obvious to me okay, it was something i did out of desperation and i'll never do it again, i feel completley embarressed/ashamed/regretful/stupid/guilty/like a total idiot. But i posted this thread to get some advice hopefully from someone who's been in the same situation or who has been in my bosses situation. All I was saying is, your really not helping mate, you cant make me feel worse than i do yeh.

    Since it's happened this morning, i've got a few texts from folk i work with saying basically that although their not condoning what i did, they know i'm not a bad person and they'd like me to come in for the disiplinary if it means theres any chance of keeping my job.

    Also when i said that other people do it aswell, it's not like i meant all the time or anything. Sorry i know that actually does sound really bad, it just seems ok sometimes coz it's such a big company and we get paid a pretty shitty wage to begin with. And it's never large amounts. I dunno, maybe it just seems more acceptable when u know it's going on.

    What about offering to pay it back? i would do it anyway but is it wise to bring that up? The thing is aswell i have another full time job i could walk into if i wanted due to family connections but i really love the job i'm in now and i feel so stupid for f**king it all up.

    Did you take the same amount of money that they were planning on reimbursing you for? Were you somehow planning on putting the money back in the till after you received it? I'm not even sure how you'd do that...

    Esh on
  • SixSix Thankful for my limbs and teeth Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I'm not trying to make you feel worse.

    I'm saying start looking for another job. You're likely going to need it.

    Six on
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  • Sir CarcassSir Carcass I have been shown the end of my world Round Rock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Esh wrote: »
    Six - It is obvious to me okay, it was something i did out of desperation and i'll never do it again, i feel completley embarressed/ashamed/regretful/stupid/guilty/like a total idiot. But i posted this thread to get some advice hopefully from someone who's been in the same situation or who has been in my bosses situation. All I was saying is, your really not helping mate, you cant make me feel worse than i do yeh.

    Since it's happened this morning, i've got a few texts from folk i work with saying basically that although their not condoning what i did, they know i'm not a bad person and they'd like me to come in for the disiplinary if it means theres any chance of keeping my job.

    Also when i said that other people do it aswell, it's not like i meant all the time or anything. Sorry i know that actually does sound really bad, it just seems ok sometimes coz it's such a big company and we get paid a pretty shitty wage to begin with. And it's never large amounts. I dunno, maybe it just seems more acceptable when u know it's going on.

    What about offering to pay it back? i would do it anyway but is it wise to bring that up? The thing is aswell i have another full time job i could walk into if i wanted due to family connections but i really love the job i'm in now and i feel so stupid for f**king it all up.

    Did you take the same amount of money that they were planning on reimbursing you for? Were you somehow planning on putting the money back in the till after you received it? I'm not even sure how you'd do that...

    He could try suggesting that they not reimburse him after all and he then pay the money back, but I don't know if that would help or hurt.

    Sir Carcass on
  • MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Six - It is obvious to me okay, it was something i did out of desperation and i'll never do it again, i feel completley embarressed/ashamed/regretful/stupid/guilty/like a total idiot. But i posted this thread to get some advice hopefully from someone who's been in the same situation or who has been in my bosses situation. All I was saying is, your really not helping mate, you cant make me feel worse than i do yeh.

    Since it's happened this morning, i've got a few texts from folk i work with saying basically that although their not condoning what i did, they know i'm not a bad person and they'd like me to come in for the disiplinary if it means theres any chance of keeping my job.

    Also when i said that other people do it aswell, it's not like i meant all the time or anything. Sorry i know that actually does sound really bad, it just seems ok sometimes coz it's such a big company and we get paid a pretty shitty wage to begin with. And it's never large amounts. I dunno, maybe it just seems more acceptable when u know it's going on.

    What about offering to pay it back? i would do it anyway but is it wise to bring that up? The thing is aswell i have another full time job i could walk into if i wanted due to family connections but i really love the job i'm in now and i feel so stupid for f**king it all up.

    The words in red are what might be making people think you don't feel bad enough about this. Don't try to rationalize this.

    MushroomStick on
  • SipexSipex Registered User
    edited August 2010
    The best thing you can do is just simply own up, apologise and promise that it will never never never happen again.

    Sipex on
    Horseshoe wrote:
    I've got good news and bad news about 6th level, That Guy. The good news is that Forbiddance spell allows you to prevent enemies different alignment from entering a consecrated area, which is actually useful! The bad news is that the only other new sixth level spell makes lunch for everybody. Guess which one the party is going to expect you to cast.
  • looramagooralooramagoora Registered User
    edited August 2010
    Do you know what everyone I think ur right, I am trying to rationalize it to make myself feel better. I think i'll defs go to the disiplinary, if not only to close the whole thing off, and just let whatever happens happens. I'm just going to explain to them why i did it, let them know how sorry i am and how i'll accept whatever action they want to take, and let it go from there.

    Thanks for the advice though everyone, it's nice to know that total strangers are always willing to stick their two cents in lol.

    Oh yeh and btw I'm a chick, just for the one guy who referred to me in a masculine way.

    looramagoora on
  • ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited August 2010
    Agreed with Mushroom. From one or two of your replies, it almost seems like you're looking for some sympathy. Honestly, saying that you know it was stupid in this particular sort of case is not going to prevent people confirming it for you. When you go in for your hearing, do not get defensive. You are getting the teensiest bit defensive here, and that really detracts from all this remorse you say you're feeling.

    Never try to justify this. You made a stupid little mistake, and you are going to need to be prepared to take full and possibly public responsibility for it, quite possibly more than once. Get used to this. You can explain what happened and why, but it is not okay to steal. It's not okay to steal from people with no money, and it's not okay to steal from a corporation large and faceless. There is no justification you can give or circumstance you can name that makes this or what your coworkers are doing anything but dishonest theft. You can't paint a happier face on it, and when you try it makes you look absolutely terrible; if you don't like what your job is paying you, get another one. If you love it as much as you say and enough to keep it, one can only assume that lower wages are worth it to you.

    ceres on
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  • Sir CarcassSir Carcass I have been shown the end of my world Round Rock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Oh yeh and btw I'm a chick, just for the one guy who referred to me in a masculine way.

    :(

    Sir Carcass on
  • SipexSipex Registered User
    edited August 2010
    One of the key rules of the internet: You're a guy until you feel the need to specify otherwise.

    I don't write the rules but it's completely true.

    Sipex on
    Horseshoe wrote:
    I've got good news and bad news about 6th level, That Guy. The good news is that Forbiddance spell allows you to prevent enemies different alignment from entering a consecrated area, which is actually useful! The bad news is that the only other new sixth level spell makes lunch for everybody. Guess which one the party is going to expect you to cast.
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Loora, everyone makes mistakes. It happens to us all, sometimes we do it at our job. You know what makes people grow and become better? Admitting they made it and apologizing for doing it. Don't worry what they think about you, don't worry about what you did, it's done. Apologize, tell them it was stupid, tell them you understand their concerns and let them know you'll accept whatever decision they make. If they fire you, they fire you. If they don't, well, you're lucky and you should do your best not to do that.

    In the future, no one cares if you can't afford anything else that day. Everyone has their own financial situation. If they ask you to go somewhere tell them you will not be able to afford it unless they front the bill, just make sure you let them know you have no problem doing it. Problem solved, and you don't have to steal from the register.

    Oh yeah, don't try to justify your actions because everyone else does it. That's the quickest way to unemployment. They'll ask why you didn't report them, then fire you.

    bowen on
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  • badpoetbadpoet Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    See i'm kinda thinking along the same lines as everybody else, i'll just get fired etc. But i dunno it's complicated, it is retail but is also something to do with animals so they put A LOT of money into training you and they are always really reluctant to fire anyone. My boss also said off the record that it was out of his hands but if he had to make the decision he would want to keep me. Also as i was leaving i said to my deputy manager that i was so sorry and she was basically like "you're a total fool for doing this but i would come back in for your disiplinary"

    And i'm feeling along the same lines as Esh, that i'll look even more guilty if i didnt go back.

    I wouldnt ever say to them "oh but i'm so great - how can you afford to let me go!" I'm not that sort of person to big themselves up, I already said to them today that i was really really sorry and could totally understand if they wanted me to leave the shop. But they have to do everything like BY THE BOOK, really specifically, so being suspended on full pay is mandotory anyway i think.

    Also, most of the younger folk that i work with have done it a couple of tme when everyones skint at the end of the month, so i know they wouldnt judge me. I know that doesnt make it any better though!

    To the person who straightaway said "learn your lesson - dont steal" thanks for stating the total obvious.

    You should be fired. And, if you had been working for me, I sent you home and you came back expecting your job, I would then make sure you knew you were fired and press charges.

    badpoet on
  • BoomShakeBoomShake Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    badpoet wrote: »
    You should be fired. And, if you had been working for me, I sent you home and you came back expecting your job, I would then make sure you knew you were fired and press charges.

    This should be the case if she is going back the next day on your own accord and expecting things to be hunky-dory. That is not the case.

    They said i was suspended on full pay and i had to go back for a disiplinary to find out wether i get to keep my job.

    They have asked or told her to come back for a disciplinary hearing/whatever. Not showing up to that would indicate that she doesn't have any remorse and didn't care about the job anyway.

    BoomShake on
  • SipexSipex Registered User
    edited August 2010
    That's nice poet but really not helpful to the situation.

    This is Help and Advice, not Judge and Ridicule.

    Sipex on
    Horseshoe wrote:
    I've got good news and bad news about 6th level, That Guy. The good news is that Forbiddance spell allows you to prevent enemies different alignment from entering a consecrated area, which is actually useful! The bad news is that the only other new sixth level spell makes lunch for everybody. Guess which one the party is going to expect you to cast.
  • MagicToasterMagicToaster JapanRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    i'm pretty valuable to the company

    You should never believe this. You can always be replaced.

    MagicToaster on
  • Dr. FrenchensteinDr. Frenchenstein Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    i'm pretty valuable to the company

    You should never believe this. You can always be replaced.

    You are never as valuable as you think you are typically. but sounds like you've got the right idea OP, take your lumps. Prepare for the worst, but hope for the best!

    Dr. Frenchenstein on
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    You should consult with your local CAB - Citizen's Advice Bureau. They do pretty good work for first level advice on your employment rights and even in your situation, it is worth taking their advice. Alternatively, you could consider talking to ACAS, which is the central government's primary employment service (like the Department of Labour in other countries). They do give advice to employers and employees alike.

    As you have more than 12 month's service you have do have unfair dismissal protection, which would mean that they should at least follow due process before they decide whether to dismiss you. Your contract of employment or induction material will likely give you more details on this matter.

    (usual disclaimer -this is not legal advice, it is just advice as to where to find further advice)

    Kalkino on
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  • Dr. FrenchensteinDr. Frenchenstein Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Stealing from the till is one of those reasons where it would never be considered unfair dismissal.

    Dr. Frenchenstein on
  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Stealing from the till is one of those reasons where it would never be considered unfair dismissal.

    Right, but in the UK if you have 12 month's service you gain the right to be dismissed as per rules set out in the Employment Rights Act. With less than 12 month's service you cannot make a basic claim for unfair dismissal. After 12 month's service you can. Of course if your claim has little merit then it may not go far

    Kalkino on
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  • Reverend_ChaosReverend_Chaos Suit Up! Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    That's nice poet but really not helpful to the situation.

    This is Help and Advice, not Judge and Ridicule.

    Agreed.


    OP - If I were in your shoes, knowing what I know, I would just go find another job. It is very likely that you will show up to find a policeman there to arrest you for theft.

    If you ONLY lose your job, you will be lucky. If you want to go face the music - I applaud you, and I wish you the best. Everyone makes mistakes, but people forgive. Companies do not. Companies tend to make examples to keep other indivuals in line.

    If they do not outright fire you - I would plead your circumstances, let them know that it was a really, really terrible decision, one that you would never, ever repeat.

    Best of luck either way.

    Reverend_Chaos on
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  • SipexSipex Registered User
    edited August 2010
    To be fair, if they're going to have her arrested and she doesn't show the police will just go get her instead.

    Sipex on
    Horseshoe wrote:
    I've got good news and bad news about 6th level, That Guy. The good news is that Forbiddance spell allows you to prevent enemies different alignment from entering a consecrated area, which is actually useful! The bad news is that the only other new sixth level spell makes lunch for everybody. Guess which one the party is going to expect you to cast.
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Sipex wrote: »
    To be fair, if they're going to have her arrested and she doesn't show the police will just go get her instead.

    Yep. I would try to be as proactive as possible about making amends with your immediate supervisor. Companies may be terrifying faceless monoliths, but their policies are administered by flesh-and-blood human beings, and among them you can develop allies even among adversaries if you are serious enough about approaching the situation from their perspective. But it is a frightening situation, and I won't really blame you if your immediate reaction is to lay low.

    Just be aware that hiding from your problems doesn't solve them, it only postpones them. And frequently putting things off will only irritate the other people involved.

    SammyF on
  • NailbunnyPDNailbunnyPD Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    If you have not done so already, plan to return the money when you return.

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  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    There's a lot of talk about being arrested here, and YMMV, IANAL, I'm in the US, etc. but I've worked retail in the past for roughly 8 years and I've never seen anyone get arrested or seen a company press charges for less than 100 dollars in theft, provided the person admitted to it, apologized, and usually allowed it to be taken from their last check.

    amateurhour on

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  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    There's a lot of talk about being arrested here, and YMMV, IANAL, I'm in the US, etc. but I've worked retail in the past for roughly 8 years and I've never seen anyone get arrested or seen a company press charges for less than 100 dollars in theft, provided the person admitted to it, apologized, and usually allowed it to be taken from their last check.
    I'm in the UK and I've seen multiple people get arrested for stealing less from their (retail) jobs. If it is going to happen it's outside of the OP's hands now but it is definitely something to consider.

    815165 on
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