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MMA X: Captain Guillotine: Fear the man who has practiced one choke 10,000 times

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  • edited September 2010
    The suicide stuff is pretty sketchy I think, but the painkiller addiction and its relation the way many fighters have to fight with some sort of injury strikes me as something that could and hopefully will be fixed as the sport grows. I mean as it is now I know the organizations can't support fighters that aren't fighting, but I hope if the UFC does become The MMA Organization they could work something out to keep fighters healthier.

    hotlunch on
  • YougottawannaYougottawanna Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The article writer is taking a stand on principle, which I can respect, but much of the reasoning in that article is very unconvincing to me. He spends a lot of time speculating about fighters who have had their "bells rung" or "gotten rocked," and first makes the implication that they may have been concussed, which is impossible to prove, and then refers to those as "subconcussive blows" which to my ears is a choice of language that's very clearly intended to lead the reader to a conclusion. It creates the implication that these blows are just under the threshold of being concussions, when any blow could be classified "subconcussive."

    He claims that "subconcussive blows" can cause CTE, but his only evidence is a pair of football players who he claims were never "diagnosed" with a concussion, which is not convincing given everything I know about high school, college, and pro football. And he makes no attempt to quantify just how many subconcussive blows put you at risk. He asks rhetorical questions like "what's the percentage of MMA fighters who haven't had three concussions?" and then doesn't answer them. My guess is that percentage is pretty high.

    IMO every attempt should be made the gather data on accumulated brain damage and make it available to fighters and fans, but the data so far hasn't been convincing to me to suggest that the risk is so high as make MMA ethically questionable.

    Yougottawanna on
  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    IMO every attempt should be made the gather data on accumulated brain damage and make it available to fighters and fans, but the data so far hasn't been convincing to me to suggest that the risk is so high as make MMA ethically questionable.
    MMA isn't ethically questionable.

    The UFC is ethically questionable.

    B:L on
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  • CangoFettCangoFett Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    What I like most about that site is how I got a popup for 1 MILLIONTH CUSTOMER, IRON MAN 2O N DVD, AND THE BLACKET SHOW AROUND THE CLEVELAND SHOW ON DVD

    All at the same time

    covering the entire screen.


    Other things i Like; Mat burn, gi burn, wet gis, heel hooks, and neck cranks.


    OH WAIT JK IM SUPER PISSED

    CangoFett on
  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CangoFett wrote: »
    Other things i Like; Mat burn, gi burn, wet gis, heel hooks, and neck cranks.


    OH WAIT JK IM SUPER PISSED
    Wet gi contests are the best what are you talking about

    B:L on
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  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I still don't get why anyone expected CroCop to have a chance. You guys keep setting yourselves up for disappointment. :(

    There's always a chance.

    But hey, note that Mir, who outweighed Mirko by 20 pounds or so, the BJJ ace, was unable to take CroCop to the ground. Not once. That was very surprising to me. Had I known CroCop's TD defense was good enough to stop Mirs attempts I would have totally thought he had a chance.

    [Tycho?] on
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  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    I still don't get why anyone expected CroCop to have a chance. You guys keep setting yourselves up for disappointment. :(

    There's always a chance.

    But hey, note that Mir, who outweighed Mirko by 20 pounds or so, the BJJ ace, was unable to take CroCop to the ground. Not once. That was very surprising to me. Had I known CroCop's TD defense was good enough to stop Mirs attempts I would have totally thought he had a chance.
    CroCop always had amazing TD defense. Even when he throws kicks.
    ESPECIALLY when he throws kicks, because a crippled or knocked out opponent ain't taking him down.

    B:L on
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  • MayGodHaveMercyMayGodHaveMercy Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    I still don't get why anyone expected CroCop to have a chance. You guys keep setting yourselves up for disappointment. :(

    There's always a chance.

    But hey, note that Mir, who outweighed Mirko by 20 pounds or so, the BJJ ace, was unable to take CroCop to the ground. Not once. That was very surprising to me. Had I known CroCop's TD defense was good enough to stop Mirs attempts I would have totally thought he had a chance.

    He did show some good TDD. I was a bit surprised, though, that Mir never pulled guard. Then again, he may have felt that he was at more of a disadvantage under Cro Cop versus standing with him. Turns out he was right. ;-)

    MayGodHaveMercy on
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  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    He did show some good TDD. I was a bit surprised, though, that Mir never pulled guard. Then again, he may have felt that he was at more of a disadvantage under Cro Cop versus leaning on him. Turns out he was right. ;-)
    Fixed.

    I'm waiting for someone to use this as an entrance theme if they're facing Randy Couture or anyone else who uses that strategy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9hMLnmeNm4

    B:L on
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  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Dana White: kinda upset
    Dana White wrote:
    (on Sherk-Dunham and judging)
    Dunham won that fight. The judges give to Sherk. People then ask themselves, "What the fuck was that?" It makes people angry. It pissed me off. You have that, and then the main event, and then even though there were a bunch of great fights, especially in the prelims, and that's what people are left with.

    Our judges are so bad. That's why I tell guys, you better get in there and handle your business yourself.

    ...

    (on Frank Mir)
    I have no clue about Frank. To talk the stuff he does, and then fight like he fought, that's a little frustrating. Once Cro Cop stuffed his takedown attempt, his heart fell out on the floor. If Frank Mir can't bully you, his heart shrinks to the size of the Grinch's. If he can't take you down, his heart shrinks to the size of a pea.

    ...

    (on whether Frank Mir could be cut)
    Sure. You really, really need to show up and deliver. This is a job. You go to your job and don't perform, what will happen? And when people say, "Hey, these guys put their lives on the line," that's a crock of shit. This sport is so safe. These guys have chosen to be fighters!

    http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/news/story?id=5621844

    BubbaT on
  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Dana White: kinda upset
    Dana White wrote:
    (on whether Frank Mir could be cut)
    Sure. You really, really need to show up and deliver. This is a job. You go to your job and don't perform, what will happen? And when people say, "Hey, these guys put their lives on the line," that's a crock of shit. This sport is so safe. These guys have chosen to be fighters!

    http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/news/story?id=5621844
    And there, Dana White shows his true view of MMA; it's not a sport, it's sports entertainment and the fighters' job is to entertain rather than win.

    B:L on
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  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    waaaaaah dana.

    mir lets one fight go past the second round in over 4 years, his two losses since vera coming by early round knockouts (to hard hitting, big, powerful guys) and he knocks out a great boxer, drops a great kickboxer then chokes him excitingly, one decision in over 9 years... he's definitely a lazy, shitty fighter who coasts and never puts on an exciting fight.

    Organichu on
  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Organichu wrote: »
    waaaaaah dana.

    mir lets one fight go past the second round in over 4 years, his two losses coming by early round knockouts (to hard hitting, big, powerful guys) and he knocks out a great boxer, drops a great kickboxer then chokes him excitingly, one decision in over 9 years... he's definitely a lazy, shitty fighter who coasts and never puts on an exciting fight.
    Totally unlike Randy Couture, who is amazing and the face of the UFC.

    B:L on
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  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    i've found myself bored during large portions of couture's matches

    Organichu on
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    B:L wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    waaaaaah dana.

    mir lets one fight go past the second round in over 4 years, his two losses coming by early round knockouts (to hard hitting, big, powerful guys) and he knocks out a great boxer, drops a great kickboxer then chokes him excitingly, one decision in over 9 years... he's definitely a lazy, shitty fighter who coasts and never puts on an exciting fight.
    Totally unlike Randy Couture, who is amazing and the face of the UFC.

    Clearly the solution is for Mir to get 2 flesh-colored puff pastries surgically attached to the sides of his head.

    BubbaT on
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    do you two need some privacy?

    dlinfiniti on
    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • TehSpectreTehSpectre Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Couture is at least old as shit.

    I think the fact that he can bully people against the cage at his age still means something.

    The fact that he can still win is nuts.

    He may be a little boring, but he usually dirty boxes well-enough.


    Mir doesn't have that excuse.

    Mir slapped CroCop a few times, aside from the KO knee.

    TehSpectre on
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  • SnarfmasterSnarfmaster Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    B:L wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Dana White: kinda upset
    Dana White wrote:
    (on whether Frank Mir could be cut)
    Sure. You really, really need to show up and deliver. This is a job. You go to your job and don't perform, what will happen? And when people say, "Hey, these guys put their lives on the line," that's a crock of shit. This sport is so safe. These guys have chosen to be fighters!

    http://sports.espn.go.com/extra/mma/news/story?id=5621844
    And there, Dana White shows his true view of MMA; it's not a sport, it's sports entertainment and the fighters' job is to entertain rather than win.

    That's true of all successful sports. Entertaining losers stick around as long as entertaining winners and get paid just as well. If you're a draw you're valuable. If you're in a sport soley for pride and being the best there's a large variety of olympic sports to choose from.

    Snarfmaster on
  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    That's true of all successful sports. Entertaining losers stick around as long as entertaining winners and get paid just as well. If you're a draw you're valuable. If you're in a sport soley for pride and being the best there's a large variety of olympic sports to choose from.
    Uhh...no?

    Pitchers and batters doing wild and crazy pitches and swings will get their ass thrown out over players who have boring pitches and bunts in baseball.

    Players who hog the ball and consistently try to get highlight reel plays at the cost of their team's win will be ostracized and ridiculed in basketball.

    Trying to run up the score instead of taking a kneel like you're supposed to and you'd get boo'd in football.


    Sports are about winning. Perhaps you've mistaken the UFC for the WWE, which I can't blame you for since Dana White seems to be taking it in that direction.

    B:L on
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  • OrganichuOrganichu jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    well, yeah, his fight was pretty boring until he kneed him into friday

    i don't know, i feel like 'if mir doesn't step it up he's looking at being cut' is just a ridiculous, indefensible position

    i mean, looking back:

    -3rd round ko of a striking legend in a, granted, mostly uneventful fight
    -knocked out in the first round by the #1 contender, maybe the hardest puncher at heavyweight
    -outboxes a (taller) professional kickboxer and then puts him out with a choke
    -knocked out by the champ (who he'd previously beaten), in a match where he was exciting, and got taken down throwing a ridiculous double knee
    -knocked out nog, the first to do it in what, almost 40 fights?
    -sub of lesnar
    -lightning quick sub of hardonk

    all the way back to his shitty run with his tune up fights after the accident.

    i mean, i know i'm a mir fanboy, i don't deny that he's my favorite fighter in the sport. but come on. lesnar was inexperienced, nog had a staph infection, crocop was only half there, on and on. people reach so far to marginalize anything he does that i'm surprised they don't pull a muscle.

    Organichu on
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    sports are about winning
    professional sports are about money and winning
    like it or not as long as money is a factor, the product will always need to be sold and as such entertainment will always be a part of competition in professional sports.

    For an analogy, we can look at tackling in the NFL and how its evolved. You know why concussions are such a big issue now in football? Aside from new studies and information about the severity of head injuries coming out, there are also a lot more of them in the NFL now and thats not just due to guys getting faster and bigger. Its also due to the deterioration and lack of fundamentals when it comes to tackling. More and more cornerbacks and safeties these days take all those fundamentals about how to properly and effectively take a guy down by setting yourself and wrapping him up that they learned all their life and tossing it out the window when they get to college and the NFL (and reportedly in some places its not even being taught anymore). Instead young players are being told that despite that being the most effective way to bring a dude down and contribute to winning, they should run at full speed and launch themselves at their opponents helmet first. Now why the hell would they risk their own bodies and risk losing the tackle like that? Because thats what the fans love and thats what gets them on sportscenter and ultimately what gets them noticed. In these instances, competition and winning take a back seat to money. And there are examples like that in every professional sport(if you want a basketball example, just look at how donald sterling runs the clippers). Professional sports played by humans is not pure. You want a pure competitive sport, you want the olympics. And even then, the smell of money there can and has ruined competition.

    dlinfiniti on
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  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    sports are about winning
    professional sports are about money and winning
    like it or not as long as money is a factor, the product will always need to be sold and as such entertainment will always be a part of competition in professional sports.
    The organizational framework of other sports allow them to retain their sports integrity while bringing in money from sponsors and TV deals.

    The UFC's organization is more similar to the WWE's, making it closer to sports entertainment than a sport. What other "sport" threatens to cut an athlete for not being entertaining enough? Only in the UFC and WWE.

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  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    See, some of you guys say that sports should only be about winning and that Dana and everyone else shouldn't whine when a fighter goes out just to win instead of being exciting all the time.

    But here's the thing. If every fight was Mir/Crocop, you guys wouldn't watch MMA. Period. To say otherwise is to tell a lie. It was a boring fight, it sucked, neither guy took any chances. They are pro fighters and neither guy came to fight. I have a bit of an issue with that. When I pay money to see a night of fights, I expect that every guy signed the dotted line because they wanted to actually step in the cage and do something to the other guy.

    Does that mean I expect every fight to be a stand up war? No. And I wouldn't want every fight to be that. I'm a student of Jiu-Jitsu and I love the ground game very much. However, Mir and CroCop did neither of those things. They didn't fight on the ground. They didn't fight on their feet. They didn't fight at all. It was bullshit. People like myself paid money to see what we thought would be a fight and we got less than nothing.

    So anyone who's acting all high and mighty about "wah why is anyone whining about the fights blah blah" can sit down and cool off. Maybe you don't mind wasting your time and money, but the rest of us do.

    ChillyWilly on
    PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
  • PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    but hey that evan dunham/sean sherk fight eh bros

    i mean dunham got robbed but

    that fight!

    Pony on
  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    B:L wrote: »
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    sports are about winning
    professional sports are about money and winning
    like it or not as long as money is a factor, the product will always need to be sold and as such entertainment will always be a part of competition in professional sports.
    The organizational framework of other sports allow them to retain their sports integrity while bringing in money from sponsors and TV deals.

    The UFC's organization is more similar to the WWE's, making it closer to sports entertainment than a sport. What other "sport" threatens to cut an athlete for not being entertaining enough? Only in the UFC and WWE.

    The problem here is that the word "entertainment" needs to be defined.

    When I say I want to be entertained by a fight, that means I want the guys to fight. For example, I was not entertained by Mir/CroCop because they didn't do the very basic thing that they were in there to do: fight.

    To make an analogy, a baseball player would not be "entertaining" if he failed to do the very basics of his job: Running, catching the ball, hitting the ball, etc. If an outfielder simply ran around with his thumb up his ass for 9 innings and failed to do his job, you can bet that he will be fired very quickly for not being "entertaining".

    ChillyWilly on
    PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    See, some of you guys say that sports should only be about winning and that Dana and everyone else shouldn't whine when a fighter goes out just to win instead of being exciting all the time.

    But here's the thing. If every fight was Mir/Crocop, you guys wouldn't watch MMA. Period. To say otherwise is to tell a lie. It was a boring fight, it sucked, neither guy took any chances. They are pro fighters and neither guy came to fight. I have a bit of an issue with that. When I pay money to see a night of fights, I expect that every guy signed the dotted line because they wanted to actually step in the cage and do something to the other guy.

    Does that mean I expect every fight to be a stand up war? No. And I wouldn't want every fight to be that. I'm a student of Jiu-Jitsu and I love the ground game very much. However, Mir and CroCop did neither of those things. They didn't fight on the ground. They didn't fight on their feet. They didn't fight at all. It was bullshit. People like myself paid money to see what we thought would be a fight and we got less than nothing.
    Look, you're free to whine as much as you want about the fights, but ultimately the UFC is responsible for setting up fights and they're to blame for the failure to "entertain". I could see from a mile away that Mir's best strategy was to lean on CroCop.

    If every UFC fight was like this, I wouldn't watch the UFC. Good thing there's other MMA organizations out there that still maintain the integrity of the sport rather than selling it as sports entertainment. But you should get ready to crack out the whaaambulance, because Gray Maynard looks like he's going to take the title with some lay and pray. Prepare to see more and more decisions in the UFC, because that's what fighting in the UFC is about.

    B:L on
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  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Organichu wrote: »
    i've found myself bored during large portions of couture's matches

    I do not blame you. I enjoy them due to the absurdity of a 47-y/o fighting, plus I'm a big supporter of wrestlers in MMA, but I understand. He does tend to make grass growing look like a legit MMA contender due to grass's grinding, slow-and-steady style also.

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  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Organichu wrote: »
    i've found myself bored during large portions of couture's matches

    I do not blame you. I enjoy them due to the absurdity of a 47-y/o fighting, plus I'm a big supporter of wrestlers in MMA, but I understand. He does tend to make grass growing look like a legit MMA contender due to grass's grinding, slow-and-steady style also.
    A Japanese-style yellow card system would be great in stopping this. Not doing anything? Yellow card, purse deduction. That'll stem the tide of grinders.

    But it'll require the UFC's athletic commissions to hire good refs and yeah that's not going to work.

    B:L on
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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    If the UFC wants to create more exciting fights, then they need to adjust the rules and incentives to do so, in an open and honest fashion. For example, "Knockout of the Night" payouts. Picking and choosing only the fighters that are "exciting" corrupts the spirit of competition in the sport, and can lead to long-term dilution of the sport itself. Part of the reason boxing is dying is because so much stuff happens behind the scenes that people can't trust what they're seeing as true competition. It becomes about spectacle and hype. If there are people who are obviously skilled competitors who can win on the professional circuit, and are being denied that opportunity for reasons like, "Well that guy is just boring," then it puts the integrity of competition in doubt.

    Inquisitor77 on
  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    B:L wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    i've found myself bored during large portions of couture's matches

    I do not blame you. I enjoy them due to the absurdity of a 47-y/o fighting, plus I'm a big supporter of wrestlers in MMA, but I understand. He does tend to make grass growing look like a legit MMA contender due to grass's grinding, slow-and-steady style also.
    A Japanese-style yellow card system would be great in stopping this. Not doing anything? Yellow card, purse deduction. That'll stem the tide of grinders.

    But it'll require the UFC's athletic commissions to hire good refs and yeah that's not going to work.

    The UFC doesn't have an "athletic commission" that hires refs. The refs are put in the cage by whatever commission the event happens to be sanctioned under. Only in very rare cases (Mazzagatti (sp?) with Brock, for example) does the UFC have any say in who refs what. I enjoy your amusing UFC conspiracies as much as the next guy, but there isn't any need to make things up.

    ChillyWilly on
    PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    B:L wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    i've found myself bored during large portions of couture's matches

    I do not blame you. I enjoy them due to the absurdity of a 47-y/o fighting, plus I'm a big supporter of wrestlers in MMA, but I understand. He does tend to make grass growing look like a legit MMA contender due to grass's grinding, slow-and-steady style also.
    A Japanese-style yellow card system would be great in stopping this. Not doing anything? Yellow card, purse deduction. That'll stem the tide of grinders.

    But it'll require the UFC's athletic commissions to hire good refs and yeah that's not going to work.

    The UFC doesn't have an "athletic commission" that hires refs. The refs are put in the cage by whatever commission the event happens to be sanctioned under. Only in very rare cases (Mazzagatti (sp?) with Brock, for example) does the UFC have any say in who refs what. I enjoy your amusing UFC conspiracies as much as the next guy, but there isn't any need to make things up.

    I'm sure B:L is aware of that, he's just trolling.

    [Tycho?] on
    mvaYcgc.jpg
  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    B:L wrote: »
    See, some of you guys say that sports should only be about winning and that Dana and everyone else shouldn't whine when a fighter goes out just to win instead of being exciting all the time.

    But here's the thing. If every fight was Mir/Crocop, you guys wouldn't watch MMA. Period. To say otherwise is to tell a lie. It was a boring fight, it sucked, neither guy took any chances. They are pro fighters and neither guy came to fight. I have a bit of an issue with that. When I pay money to see a night of fights, I expect that every guy signed the dotted line because they wanted to actually step in the cage and do something to the other guy.

    Does that mean I expect every fight to be a stand up war? No. And I wouldn't want every fight to be that. I'm a student of Jiu-Jitsu and I love the ground game very much. However, Mir and CroCop did neither of those things. They didn't fight on the ground. They didn't fight on their feet. They didn't fight at all. It was bullshit. People like myself paid money to see what we thought would be a fight and we got less than nothing.
    Look, you're free to whine as much as you want about the fights, but ultimately the UFC is responsible for setting up fights and they're to blame for the failure to "entertain". I could see from a mile away that Mir's best strategy was to lean on CroCop.

    If every UFC fight was like this, I wouldn't watch the UFC. Good thing there's other MMA organizations out there that still maintain the integrity of the sport rather than selling it as sports entertainment. But you should get ready to crack out the whaaambulance, because Gray Maynard looks like he's going to take the title with some lay and pray. Prepare to see more and more decisions in the UFC, because that's what fighting in the UFC is about.

    It's not the UFC's fault that people who claim to be pro fighters step into the cage and absolutely refuse to fight each other. To suggest that is goosey on a pretty serious level.

    I think you've misunderstood what I'm saying. I don't care to see decisions. I just want guys to actually fight and take some risks every once in a while. I want them to be as well-rounded as possible. I want them to actually be Mixed Martial Artists. I don't really see why that's too much to ask.

    ChillyWilly on
    PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    B:L wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    i've found myself bored during large portions of couture's matches

    I do not blame you. I enjoy them due to the absurdity of a 47-y/o fighting, plus I'm a big supporter of wrestlers in MMA, but I understand. He does tend to make grass growing look like a legit MMA contender due to grass's grinding, slow-and-steady style also.
    A Japanese-style yellow card system would be great in stopping this. Not doing anything? Yellow card, purse deduction. That'll stem the tide of grinders.

    But it'll require the UFC's athletic commissions to hire good refs and yeah that's not going to work.

    The UFC doesn't have an "athletic commission" that hires refs. The refs are put in the cage by whatever commission the event happens to be sanctioned under. Only in very rare cases (Mazzagatti (sp?) with Brock, for example) does the UFC have any say in who refs what. I enjoy your amusing UFC conspiracies as much as the next guy, but there isn't any need to make things up.

    I'm sure B:L is aware of that, he's just trolling.

    Perhaps. But he could also just be ignorant. Just covering my bases. :P

    ChillyWilly on
    PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Very well said, Inquisitor.
    B:L wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    i've found myself bored during large portions of couture's matches

    I do not blame you. I enjoy them due to the absurdity of a 47-y/o fighting, plus I'm a big supporter of wrestlers in MMA, but I understand. He does tend to make grass growing look like a legit MMA contender due to grass's grinding, slow-and-steady style also.
    A Japanese-style yellow card system would be great in stopping this. Not doing anything? Yellow card, purse deduction. That'll stem the tide of grinders.

    But it'll require the UFC's athletic commissions to hire good refs and yeah that's not going to work.

    The UFC doesn't have an "athletic commission" that hires refs. The refs are put in the cage by whatever commission the event happens to be sanctioned under. Only in very rare cases (Mazzagatti (sp?) with Brock, for example) does the UFC have any say in who refs what.
    Way to throw insults rather than ask for a clarification on my points, Tycho and Willy.

    The UFC is in a prime position to negotiate with the state athletic commissions that they work with to work out rulesets and guidelines to encourage a better MMA environment. That's why I called them UFC's athletic commissions, because the onus is on them as the most popular MMA organization to keep MMA fresh and relevant while maintaining its sports integrity.

    Bad reffing, bad judging, and bad fights are bad for MMA, and the UFC seems to encourage that.

    And since you reminded me, good job choosing Mazagatti to ref the Brock fight too, UFC. That sure went swell.

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I loved the card system in Pride. Unfortunately I'm not sure if it could ever be implemented in the U.S. I think the UFC has really tried to think of ways to incentivize fighters to actually...well...fight, and the best they could come up with are those "X of the Night" bonuses.

    Does anyone else have any better ideas? Seriously, I'm curious what other people think would get past the state athletic commissions and still work.

    Inquisitor77 on
  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    B:L wrote: »
    Very well said, Inquisitor.
    B:L wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    i've found myself bored during large portions of couture's matches

    I do not blame you. I enjoy them due to the absurdity of a 47-y/o fighting, plus I'm a big supporter of wrestlers in MMA, but I understand. He does tend to make grass growing look like a legit MMA contender due to grass's grinding, slow-and-steady style also.
    A Japanese-style yellow card system would be great in stopping this. Not doing anything? Yellow card, purse deduction. That'll stem the tide of grinders.

    But it'll require the UFC's athletic commissions to hire good refs and yeah that's not going to work.

    The UFC doesn't have an "athletic commission" that hires refs. The refs are put in the cage by whatever commission the event happens to be sanctioned under. Only in very rare cases (Mazzagatti (sp?) with Brock, for example) does the UFC have any say in who refs what.
    Way to throw insults rather than ask for a clarification on my points, Tycho and Willy.

    The UFC is in a prime position to negotiate with the state athletic commissions that they work with to work out rulesets and guidelines to encourage a better MMA environment. That's why I called them UFC's athletic commissions, because the onus is on them as the most popular MMA organization to keep MMA fresh and relevant while maintaining its sports integrity.

    Bad reffing, bad judging, and bad fights are bad for MMA, and the UFC seems to encourage that.

    And since you reminded me, good job choosing Mazagatti to ref the Brock fight too, UFC. That sure went swell.

    The UFC can suggest and ask whatever they want, but the commission still has complete control of refs and judges at the end of the day. You can call them the "UFC's athletic commissions" all you want, but that just makes you wrong.

    I'll just assume you're trolling if you continue with this particular line of thought.

    ChillyWilly on
    PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
  • B:LB:L Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The UFC can suggest and ask whatever they want, but the commission still has complete control of refs and judges at the end of the day. You can call them the "UFC's athletic commissions" all you want, but that just makes you wrong.

    I'll just assume you're trolling if you continue with this particular line of thought.
    Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make it trolling. Stop with the [Tycho?]-style Sherdog/Bullshido arguments.


    The yellow card system has it merits, but again it comes down to the refs being knowledgable and trustworthy, and I don't think we're even close to that point yet in the UFC.

    Basically these bad refs, decisions, and fights make MMA look bad, and that means less money in the long run. The UFC needs to work with their athletic commissions to stop this from happening again. It's the only way.

    Unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon with the UFC. At least there's other organizations out there to watch.

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  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I loved the card system in Pride. Unfortunately I'm not sure if it could ever be implemented in the U.S. I think the UFC has really tried to think of ways to incentivize fighters to actually...well...fight, and the best they could come up with are those "X of the Night" bonuses.

    Does anyone else have any better ideas? Seriously, I'm curious what other people think would get past the state athletic commissions and still work.

    I'm a fan of the card system. For instance, if a guy like Randy Couture holds a guy against the cage for more than 30 seconds/a minute with no action, there's a yellow card. 10% of your total purse. Next one goes to 20%. Third card is red and gives you a DQ on your record and maybe a huge purse loss, something crazy like 50%.

    Terms for these cards will have to be clearly defined and ALL refs will have to be good at their jobs (a task in itself), but the framework itself is something that I think would be much better than the current system.

    My problem is that these guys are paid to fight. So I think that fights, whenever possible, should end in a way that mimics a real fight that has no rules. A KO, a submission, or a decision that leaves no room for any question as to who won are all preferable outcomes to me. All fighters should be trying to get as close as possible to one of those 3 outcomes. If they're not, then I don't feel they're doing their job very well. Not every fight will end that way. I know that. But every fight should strive for it. And some simply don't.

    ChillyWilly on
    PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    B:L wrote: »
    The UFC can suggest and ask whatever they want, but the commission still has complete control of refs and judges at the end of the day. You can call them the "UFC's athletic commissions" all you want, but that just makes you wrong.

    I'll just assume you're trolling if you continue with this particular line of thought.
    Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make it trolling. Stop with the [Tycho?]-style Sherdog/Bullshido arguments.


    The yellow card system has it merits, but again it comes down to the refs being knowledgable and trustworthy, and I don't think we're even close to that point yet in the UFC.

    Basically these bad refs, decisions, and fights make MMA look bad, and that means less money in the long run. The UFC needs to work with their athletic commissions to stop this from happening again. It's the only way.

    Unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon with the UFC. At least there's other organizations out there to watch.

    You're right. My disagreeing with you doesn't make you a troll. You being wrong and continuing to say wrong things makes you a troll.

    This is a circular argument. Next...



    I'm ready for WEC this Thursday. Need to remember to make my picks tomorrow. I'm taking Manny over Aldo. Am I crazy? We'll see. :D

    ChillyWilly on
    PAFC Top 10 Finisher in Seasons 1 and 3. 2nd in Seasons 4 and 5. Final 4 in Season 6.
  • YougottawannaYougottawanna Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    See, some of you guys say that sports should only be about winning and that Dana and everyone else shouldn't whine when a fighter goes out just to win instead of being exciting all the time.

    But here's the thing. If every fight was Mir/Crocop, you guys wouldn't watch MMA. Period. To say otherwise is to tell a lie. It was a boring fight, it sucked, neither guy took any chances. They are pro fighters and neither guy came to fight. I have a bit of an issue with that. When I pay money to see a night of fights, I expect that every guy signed the dotted line because they wanted to actually step in the cage and do something to the other guy.

    Does that mean I expect every fight to be a stand up war? No. And I wouldn't want every fight to be that. I'm a student of Jiu-Jitsu and I love the ground game very much. However, Mir and CroCop did neither of those things. They didn't fight on the ground. They didn't fight on their feet. They didn't fight at all. It was bullshit. People like myself paid money to see what we thought would be a fight and we got less than nothing.

    So anyone who's acting all high and mighty about "wah why is anyone whining about the fights blah blah" can sit down and cool off. Maybe you don't mind wasting your time and money, but the rest of us do.

    Everyone wants more exciting fights, the debate should center around how best to achieve that. The UFC's current method is fight/KO/sub of the night bonuses and the possibility of getting cut if you're not exciting. I don't care for that method because IMO it sacrifices a certain amount of integrity of competition. It gives the fighters two goals, win and be exciting, and sometimes one comes at the expense of the other. If "win" loses, then pure competition (which creates real drama) begins to erode in favor of spectacle. No it's not the WWE, but it is a little closer to that than I'd like.

    I mean, what if Dana stuck to his guns and cut Frank Mir? A guy who's had good record in the division is out, probably replaced by a fighter of lesser ability, because he's not exciting enough. That to me would be an unacceptable erosion of the UFC's integrity. I don't want to get into how eroded it already is or isn't, never mind that for the purposes of this post.

    So the UFC's current incentives for exciting fights are not the best solution. The better solution IMO is to change the judging standards, specifically by removing the practice of winning rounds 10-9 by virtue of "octagon control." That was pretty clearly Mir's gameplan after his first takedown attempts failed - pin Cro Cop against the fence for three rounds, do little else, and cruise to a 30-27 decision. Can you blame him? He's in a position where he's conceivably 1-2 fights away from another title shot if things break his way. His goal is to win fights and hopefully win a title, and that's what it should be.

    If on the other hand a round that was even but for pinning/takedowns were scored 10-10 it changes everything. Now laying on someone is not an easy route to victory, you actually have to do something, like say pass the guard, creating something more like an actual fight.

    Yougottawanna on
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